8Rack is a Modern variation of the classic discard / Pox strategy, in which you tear apart your opponent's hand turn after turn with discard spells, then let them slowly die from The Rack and Shrieking Affliction. It is exactly as fun as it sounds (if you're the pilot).
The non-budget version of the deck (about $1100) makes strong use of Liliana of the Veil, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (in combination with utility lands or manlands), and Thoughtseize, among other cash cards. These are way out of the realm of a budget deck, but fortunately there are plenty of solid budget options to replace them, without the deck suffering too much.
The list below will run you ~$100 (paper), and should be able to win you FNMs and leagues/dailies, if only on rare occasion. (A worse version won me an MTGO daily a long time ago, for what it's worth.)
Compared to the full version, it plays similar and is quite consistent, although it's somewhat less powerful (but about as powerful as we can get on a budget).
If you want to make it even cheaper, the list below downgrades Inquisition and premium removal, bringing the cost to ~$50. It will be a little slower and less reliable, but makes for an okay FNM/MTGO league and kitchen table deck.
Still not cheap enough? Below is a ~$20 list that's as about as bare bones as it gets. For the money, it does a good impression, but will be slower, less reliable, and more susceptible to removal. This is fine for the kitchen table but I wouldn't recommend it for FNM or MTGO leagues/dailies.
With the Urborgs, I think you can still get away with running the Blinkmoths (it would need testing), but the main reason to run Urborg with the manlands is to increase the chances of a turn 3 Liliana. With Necrogen Mists only having one black mana symbol you should be ok running 3-4 Blinkmoths.
Ensnaring Bridge is almost a must have in the so-called 'Proactive' List. Without it we could look at the 'Reactive' list (later).
Bitterblossom - I'm not sold on this card anyway, so this could be replaced by removal. Victim of Night and Smother fit well here.
I'm not so big on creatures and Blood Scrivener has been tested and rejected anyway, so I'm not into that idea. I'd rather use Infernal Tutor for a somewhat similar effect that has more reliability. Alternately, Dark Tutelage or Phyrexian Arena.
You can't honestly put Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, Mutavault, and/or Lily in a budget list...If you're going to do that you might as well drop the extra little bit for what little you shaved off. And manlands without 4x Urborg is a bad idea; many matches hinge on a turn 2 Wrench Mind which won't happen all too often if you're using 4x colourless sources and 1x or 0x Urborg. Just one example.
I tried to make a reactive budget list before; it didn't work out, but I'm open to testing others' ideas (that don't include expensive cards).
Witchbane Orb would be worth it in a burn/RDW heavy meta, though I reckon those are rare.
Necrogens Mists I've tested somewhat; I feel like it's bad without Lily. I could be wrong. Blackmail I've also tested; sometimes it's great, sometimes trash. I hate unreliable cards so I got rid of it. Anything 4cmc is out for me. Anyone who's played this deck extensively knows you usually stall on 2 or 3 lands. I guess you could up the land count for 4cmc cards, but I'm pretty sure you'd be losing more than you'd be gaining by doing so.
I realize I'm rejecting a lot of ideas, but understand it's only because I've put a lot of work into this version and tested a lot of cards extensively, so I'm quite confident in the results. That's not to say there's not a better version (probably is), just that I think it's very close to being as good as it can be.
You can't honestly put Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, Mutavault, and/or Lily in a budget list...If you're going to do that you might as well drop the extra little bit for what little you shaved off. And manlands without 4x Urborg is a bad idea; many matches hinge on a turn 2 Wrench Mind which won't happen all too often if you're using 4x colourless sources and 1x or 0x Urborg. Just one example.
Did you even read my post? I didn't put any of those cards in - I took them all out. And replaced them with budget options with similar effect.
You don't check the number of colourless sources to determine whether you can or can't cast a spell - you check the number of coloured sources. So with between 16 - 18 black sources - and only Wrench Mind to worry about as a turn 2 play you end up with a 10-13% failure rate (i.e. having Wrench Mind and not having the mana to cast it on turn 2). That ignores Dakmor Salvage since it comes into play tapped. With 21 Swamps you lower that failure rate to 7%, at the cost of your manlands.
I see "this gives a budget list of..." then a bunch of expensive cards immediately after. I see the budget list at the bottom now (ignored that before after seeing the previous lists). It looks decent; I'll make a few changes and test it.
7-10% is too high for me. Feel free to do that in your list but I won't do it in mine. I'm already debating removing the Dakmor for coming into play tapped. I realize some may see this approach as kind of crazy but eh. It's screwed me enough times for it to be a bother.
I see "this gives a budget list of..." then a bunch of expensive cards immediately after. I see the budget list at the bottom now (ignored that before after seeing the previous lists). It looks decent; I'll make a few changes and test it.
Ah I see my mistake - I must have mess up my editing then - obviously Lili et al were not supposed to be in the Proactive Budget List (fixed the entry in line with what I had discussed above the list - check if that makes more sense)
7-10% is too high for me. Feel free to do that in your list but I won't do it in mine. I'm already debating removing the Dakmor for coming into play tapped. I realize some may see this approach as kind of crazy but eh. It's screwed me enough times for it to be a bother.
Look - a 10% failure rate is pretty decent for a deck in general. 1 in 10 games you'll feel the screw. It might feel horrible when it happens, but you can never get to 0% failure - so you need to find some level of comfort on your failure rate (especially if you're running budget you have to accept higher or drop the power of your deck).
Dakmor is relevant because of the Raven's Crime lock you can get, 2 is about the right number.
This is the list I ran to 4-0 the last tourney I played. I didn't run up against anything Tier 1, UTron, burn, control and something else, but went through them like a buzzsaw.
In my testing, Necrogen Mists is a must, especially if I am running Infernal Tutor. It really takes the pressure off and helps when your opponent begins holding.
For me, if I get a Mists out, a Rack, have a retrace card in the graveyard and I'm topdecking, it's a win.
The sideboard is flavored to what I have seen in local play.
Funeral Charm seems leaps and bounds better than Horrifying Revelation. Funeral charm hits on the draw step (very relevant against combo decks) and randomly kills Bobs and mana dorks. I main deck 3 of them with 1 in the sideboard, and I'm rarely sad to see one.
I tested the reactive list above, with a few changes I felt were very necessary (I don't like Scrivener and Smallpox in the same list at all and Wrench Mind is vital, for a couple examples). The core was still there, though. I didn't like the results at all; it doesn't run nearly as smoothly as any of the proactive lists, nor is it nearly as reliable. Scrivener is just way too situational.
I tested the proactive list with minor changes and so far I'm liking Mists quite a bit. It seems to solve the issue I've been having where it's hard to get my hand count low to keep Bridge on. Need to test more to be sure, but it looks like it does make the deck considerably better after all and could be a mainstay. I think I may have been testing with fewer copies before, which seems to work less well, and also a considerably different list.
Edit: Yeah I'm sold on Mists. Edited the primer to account for it, and also added a "Card Choices" section for alternate card options people may wish to use. More additions to that section coming soon. I'm open to suggestions for it.
Funeral Charm seems leaps and bounds better than Horrifying Revelation. Funeral charm hits on the draw step (very relevant against combo decks) and randomly kills Bobs and mana dorks. I main deck 3 of them with 1 in the sideboard, and I'm rarely sad to see one.
They both have strengths, it depends on the situation. Funeral Charm has the strengths you have listed, although it doesn't randomly kill 1 toughness creatures, it's targeted. Horrifying Revelations has the benefit of grabbing a card the opponent doesn't choose in the form of mill. I play it because I have seen an increase in scry, and it teams well with Extirpate.
Not much scrying in Modern (I'd say 95% of it is Serum Visions, which is played in decks we already have a great matchup against) and dumping one card into the yard for Extirpate doesn't seem worth it. It'd have to be more cards, and then I'd probably only use it in a weird build with maindecked Extirpate and/or Surgical Extraction.
benefit of grabbing a card the opponent doesn't choose in the form of mill. I play it because I have seen an increase in scry, and it teams well with Extirpate.
You're really willing to give up utility (kill an x/1 creature) to mill 1?
This isn't a mill deck, putting the top card of his library is meaningless - it may have just as well been the card at the bottom of his library.
Guys, I merely posted my list, I certainly didn't champion Horrifying Revelation. Most of your arguments are moot, since if you look I also ran Funeral Charm.
I love Funeral Charm, the fact is my list is always in a state of flux, and the amounts of cards like Charm, Blackmail, IoK, Despise, Rev, etc. are ever changing.
Quote from llamaza »
You're really willing to give up utility (kill an x/1 creature) to mill 1?
This isn't a mill deck, putting the top card of his library is meaningless - it may have just as well been the card at the bottom of his library.
I'm willing to give up anything to win I have hit too many good things to give up on Rev. The truth is I never gave up anything, I run Funeral Charm.
I stress, I did not suggest any of you play Horrifying Revelation. You are free to play any cards you choose.
In this iteration of the deck, low toughness creatures aren't a large concern, I can tutor a Sun Droplet or Ensnaring Bridge if needed, and I have.......Funeral Charm!! in my list to deal with a Noble Hierarch or such. I personally, lately just haven't seen as much meaningful 1 toughness targets, and I pack removal in the sideboard if needed.
The crux of my post, if any, was that I personally have found Necrogen Mists indispensable.
We're trying to help you is all. You can't post a list without expecting criticism.
I appreciate criticism, I am just looking for something constructive and conducive to furthering the thread.
Simply saying "this card in your deck is better than this other card in your deck" is neither.
Let me put it this way, so we can put this to rest: I hear you guys and agree that there are better options than Horrifying Revelation. Prior to this last tourney I had been
running 2 Suffer the Past and swapped those out for Syphon Life just before playing. So the mill was formerly more relevant. Going forward, I will most likely up the Blackmail and Charm count.
More on topic, in your testing with the list in the primer, have you found running 4 Mists might ease the need for 4 Raven's Crime and allow potential room for
something like Syphon Life and/or Infernal Tutor?
I think the Raven's Crime lock is too powerful to reduce the number, even with 4 Necrogen Mists. The more continuous (and quasi-continuous) discard effects you have the better.
There are some things in this deck that are just 4 of's no matter what. I previously made the mistake of thinking Raven's Crime is not as critical to the deck as it is, but I've done a lot more testing since then, and I'd never want to go below 4 now.
Something like Syphon Life I think should be always be relegated to the sideboard (although I'd cut it entirely for any Zoo heavy meta). Infernal Tutor I think is the kind of card you put in if you have room for it; it's not the kind of card you find room for. I tested that one some and didn't like it, but it could be a similar case as with Mists where I wasn't testing under optimal conditions. Could be time to revisit.
I'll add both cards and Sun Droplet to the 'Card options' section.
The non-budget version of the deck (about $1100) makes strong use of Liliana of the Veil, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (in combination with utility lands or manlands), and Thoughtseize, among other cash cards. These are way out of the realm of a budget deck, but fortunately there are plenty of solid budget options to replace them, without the deck suffering too much.
The list below will run you ~$100 (paper), and should be able to win you FNMs and leagues/dailies, if only on rare occasion. (A worse version won me an MTGO daily a long time ago, for what it's worth.)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Blackmail
4 Wrench Mind
4 Raven's Crime
2 Delirium Skeins
Enchantments: 7
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Necrogen Mists
4 Pack Rat
Artifacts: 3
3 The Rack
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Instants: 6
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
2 Funeral Charm
Lands: 23
21 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Damping Sphere
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Nyxathid
2 Ratchet Bomb
Compared to the full version, it plays similar and is quite consistent, although it's somewhat less powerful (but about as powerful as we can get on a budget).
If you want to make it even cheaper, the list below downgrades Inquisition and premium removal, bringing the cost to ~$50. It will be a little slower and less reliable, but makes for an okay FNM/MTGO league and kitchen table deck.
4 Divest
2 Blackmail
4 Wrench Mind
4 Raven's Crime
2 Delirium Skeins
Enchantments: 7
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Necrogen Mists
4 Pack Rat
Artifacts: 3
3 The Rack
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Instants: 6
4 Victim of Night
2 Funeral Charm
Lands: 23
21 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Damping Sphere
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Nyxathid
2 Ratchet Bomb
Still not cheap enough? Below is a ~$20 list that's as about as bare bones as it gets. For the money, it does a good impression, but will be slower, less reliable, and more susceptible to removal. This is fine for the kitchen table but I wouldn't recommend it for FNM or MTGO leagues/dailies.
4 Divest
2 Blackmail
4 Wrench Mind
4 Raven's Crime
2 Delirium Skeins
Enchantments: 4
4 Shrieking Affliction
Creatures: 10
4 Pack Rat
3 Cunning Lethemancer
3 Nezumi Shortfang
1 Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Instants: 6
4 Victim of Night
2 Funeral Charm
Lands: 23
21 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
3 Damping Sphere
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Nyxathid
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 The Rack
3 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Raven's Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Dismember
4 Wrench Mind
3 Infest
4 Torpor Orb
4 Pithing Needle
So of that the big budget items are:
With the Urborgs, I think you can still get away with running the Blinkmoths (it would need testing), but the main reason to run Urborg with the manlands is to increase the chances of a turn 3 Liliana. With Necrogen Mists only having one black mana symbol you should be ok running 3-4 Blinkmoths.
Ensnaring Bridge is almost a must have in the so-called 'Proactive' List. Without it we could look at the 'Reactive' list (later).
Bitterblossom - I'm not sold on this card anyway, so this could be replaced by removal. Victim of Night and Smother fit well here.
Liliana - run Necrogen Mists instead.
Thoughtseize - replace with Duress or Blackmail, possibly even Funeral Charm, any one CMC discard spell really.
Sideboard - maybe Witchbane Orb does a good enough Leyline impersonation, it probably doesn't though.
That gives a budget list of:
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Raven's Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Dismember
4 Wrench Mind
3 Smother
3 Infest
4 Torpor Orb
4 Pithing Needle
On to the 'Reactive' List, which may be the better budget deck (especially if you can't get Ensnaring Bridge):
4 Mutavault
17 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Confidant
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
3 Victim of Night
3 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Darkblast
2 Extirpate
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Scepter of Fugue
1 Victim of Night
The trades I would look at:
Mutavault -> Blinkmoth Nexus
Urborg -> Swamp
Thoughtseize -> Blackmail
Dark Confident -> Blood Scrivener
Liliana -> Necrogen Mists
Giving a budget 'Reactive' List of;
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
18 Swamp
4 Blood Scrivener
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Blackmail
3 Victim of Night
3 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Necrogen Mists
2 Darkblast
2 Extirpate
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Scepter of Fugue
1 Victim of Night
You can't honestly put Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, Mutavault, and/or Lily in a budget list...If you're going to do that you might as well drop the extra little bit for what little you shaved off. And manlands without 4x Urborg is a bad idea; many matches hinge on a turn 2 Wrench Mind which won't happen all too often if you're using 4x colourless sources and 1x or 0x Urborg. Just one example.
I tried to make a reactive budget list before; it didn't work out, but I'm open to testing others' ideas (that don't include expensive cards).
Witchbane Orb would be worth it in a burn/RDW heavy meta, though I reckon those are rare.
Necrogens Mists I've tested somewhat; I feel like it's bad without Lily. I could be wrong. Blackmail I've also tested; sometimes it's great, sometimes trash. I hate unreliable cards so I got rid of it. Anything 4cmc is out for me. Anyone who's played this deck extensively knows you usually stall on 2 or 3 lands. I guess you could up the land count for 4cmc cards, but I'm pretty sure you'd be losing more than you'd be gaining by doing so.
I realize I'm rejecting a lot of ideas, but understand it's only because I've put a lot of work into this version and tested a lot of cards extensively, so I'm quite confident in the results. That's not to say there's not a better version (probably is), just that I think it's very close to being as good as it can be.
Did you even read my post? I didn't put any of those cards in - I took them all out. And replaced them with budget options with similar effect.
You don't check the number of colourless sources to determine whether you can or can't cast a spell - you check the number of coloured sources. So with between 16 - 18 black sources - and only Wrench Mind to worry about as a turn 2 play you end up with a 10-13% failure rate (i.e. having Wrench Mind and not having the mana to cast it on turn 2). That ignores Dakmor Salvage since it comes into play tapped. With 21 Swamps you lower that failure rate to 7%, at the cost of your manlands.
Let me restate my Budget Proactive List here then:
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
18 Swamp
4 Blood Scrivener
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Blackmail
3 Victim of Night
3 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Necrogen Mists
2 Darkblast
2 Extirpate
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Scepter of Fugue
1 Victim of Night
7-10% is too high for me. Feel free to do that in your list but I won't do it in mine. I'm already debating removing the Dakmor for coming into play tapped. I realize some may see this approach as kind of crazy but eh. It's screwed me enough times for it to be a bother.
Ah I see my mistake - I must have mess up my editing then - obviously Lili et al were not supposed to be in the Proactive Budget List (fixed the entry in line with what I had discussed above the list - check if that makes more sense)
Look - a 10% failure rate is pretty decent for a deck in general. 1 in 10 games you'll feel the screw. It might feel horrible when it happens, but you can never get to 0% failure - so you need to find some level of comfort on your failure rate (especially if you're running budget you have to accept higher or drop the power of your deck).
Dakmor is relevant because of the Raven's Crime lock you can get, 2 is about the right number.
Edit: I'll do more testing with it soon.
2 Despise
2 Necrogen Mists
2 Wrench Mind
3 Blackmail
4 Distress
4 Horrifying Revelation
2 Funeral Charm
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sun Droplet
2 Syphon Life
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
16 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Victim of Night
3 Torpor Orb
1 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Extirpate
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Illness in the Ranks
This is the list I ran to 4-0 the last tourney I played. I didn't run up against anything Tier 1, UTron, burn, control and something else, but went through them like a buzzsaw.
In my testing, Necrogen Mists is a must, especially if I am running Infernal Tutor. It really takes the pressure off and helps when your opponent begins holding.
For me, if I get a Mists out, a Rack, have a retrace card in the graveyard and I'm topdecking, it's a win.
The sideboard is flavored to what I have seen in local play.
I tested the proactive list with minor changes and so far I'm liking Mists quite a bit. It seems to solve the issue I've been having where it's hard to get my hand count low to keep Bridge on. Need to test more to be sure, but it looks like it does make the deck considerably better after all and could be a mainstay. I think I may have been testing with fewer copies before, which seems to work less well, and also a considerably different list.
Edit: Yeah I'm sold on Mists. Edited the primer to account for it, and also added a "Card Choices" section for alternate card options people may wish to use. More additions to that section coming soon. I'm open to suggestions for it.
They both have strengths, it depends on the situation. Funeral Charm has the strengths you have listed, although it doesn't randomly kill 1 toughness creatures, it's targeted.
Horrifying Revelations has the benefit of grabbing a card the opponent doesn't choose in the form of mill. I play it because I have seen an increase in scry, and it teams well with Extirpate.
You're really willing to give up utility (kill an x/1 creature) to mill 1?
This isn't a mill deck, putting the top card of his library is meaningless - it may have just as well been the card at the bottom of his library.
I love Funeral Charm, the fact is my list is always in a state of flux, and the amounts of cards like Charm, Blackmail, IoK, Despise, Rev, etc. are ever changing.
I'm willing to give up anything to win
I stress, I did not suggest any of you play Horrifying Revelation. You are free to play any cards you choose.
In this iteration of the deck, low toughness creatures aren't a large concern, I can tutor a Sun Droplet or Ensnaring Bridge if needed, and I have.......Funeral Charm!! in my list to deal with a Noble Hierarch or such. I personally, lately just haven't seen as much meaningful 1 toughness targets, and I pack removal in the sideboard if needed.
The crux of my post, if any, was that I personally have found Necrogen Mists indispensable.
I appreciate criticism, I am just looking for something constructive and conducive to furthering the thread.
Simply saying "this card in your deck is better than this other card in your deck" is neither.
Let me put it this way, so we can put this to rest: I hear you guys and agree that there are better options than Horrifying Revelation. Prior to this last tourney I had been
running 2 Suffer the Past and swapped those out for Syphon Life just before playing. So the mill was formerly more relevant. Going forward, I will most likely up the Blackmail and Charm count.
More on topic, in your testing with the list in the primer, have you found running 4 Mists might ease the need for 4 Raven's Crime and allow potential room for
something like Syphon Life and/or Infernal Tutor?
Something like Syphon Life I think should be always be relegated to the sideboard (although I'd cut it entirely for any Zoo heavy meta). Infernal Tutor I think is the kind of card you put in if you have room for it; it's not the kind of card you find room for. I tested that one some and didn't like it, but it could be a similar case as with Mists where I wasn't testing under optimal conditions. Could be time to revisit.
I'll add both cards and Sun Droplet to the 'Card options' section.