I think affinity play would be more first turn simian spirit guide, into BTE into e1 (or rancor on goblin guide) into goblin guide
When I was playing this deck I actually had someone unironically suggest Simian Spirit Guide...
atarka's command is amazing, and I like simian shaman in an all in aggro build, can be a way to force a lot of damage through early and hope opponent doesn't stabilize. But 9 in any deck that isn't "all in aggro"the slot is better used else where.
I think affinity play would be more first turn simian spirit guide, into BTE into e1 (or rancor on goblin guide) into goblin guide
When I was playing this deck I actually had someone unironically suggest Simian Spirit Guide...
atarka's command is amazing, and I like simian shaman in an all in aggro build, can be a way to force a lot of damage through early and hope opponent doesn't stabilize. But 9 in any deck that isn't "all in aggro"the slot is better used else where.
Imo spirit guide just generates too much card disadvantage to be good. It's a lotus petal instead of a mox opal.
It leads to explosive starts, but you'd normally want it in decks where your explosive start needs to happen asap to avoid being tampered with rather than something as intractable is zoo. They can't thoughtseize your reanimate if griselbrand is already in play before they get to their first turn, but there's nothing stopping them from casting T2 pyroclasm either way.
Essentially you end up trading a turn faster start for cards with reach that help you close out games. Also spirit guide is abysmal anywhere other than your opening 7, where vines of vastwood or dismember could provide that aforementioned utility.
My unbiased math also determines that land > exile spirit guide > BTE > E1 > Goblin Guide only adds one point of damage by the end of turn 3 over the standard land > E1> Pass > land > BTE > Boar.
Another idea I have is to use Æther Vial to swarm the board even quicker and cast Bloodthirst creatures on the opponent's turn when he fetches or shocks himself with his lands.
I've also added Myr Superion which can either be cast from Burning-Tree Emissary or cheated in by A.Vial.
so what are peoples thoughts on tribal zoos like Humans or is that not classified in this?
Right now I am taking the concept or dark zoo and running a bit tribal now that SOI is coming. Been having success with some of the interactions for more damage output. Usual removal package and burn for the spells to carry though if things are not doing well.
Another idea I have is to use Æther Vial to swarm the board even quicker and cast Bloodthirst creatures on the opponent's turn when he fetches or shocks himself with his lands.
I've also added Myr Superion which can either be cast from Burning-Tree Emissary or cheated in by A.Vial.
The other way is about goin' all-in with Steppy Lynx + Nacatl, Swiftspear, Guide.
Add Atarka's Command to the mix and prey your opp runs out of removal pretty quickly.
Naya is in a uncomfortable situation right now, even with goyf.
Grixis, Jund, Burn, Robots, Combo...we got a lot of uphill battles today.
so what are peoples thoughts on tribal zoos like Humans or is that not classified in this?
Right now I am taking the concept or dark zoo and running a bit tribal now that SOI is coming. Been having success with some of the interactions for more damage output. Usual removal package and burn for the spells to carry though if things are not doing well.
It's not the place for Humans here.
It's more of a synergy-driven theme that Zoo is certainly not.
We want the biggest and most versatile critters around.
The only competitive Budget Zoo build around is Burn Zoo.
Guide, Swiftspear, Nacatl, Eidolon + a lot of Burn.
This list can win tournaments and it's only 80$. If you need to you can cut Ooze (replace with Garruk's Companion), 3 Treetops (2 Forests, 1 Garruk's Companion), Dismembers (Gut Shot), and Relic (Tormod's Crypt)
So just curious how this primer may have changed in 2 years. Withh battle lands and the handlands could mana bases be easier/cheaper? Are there any new creatures outside of reckless bushwhacker that make budget decks more competitive? Does declaration in stone make any lists?
So this is my next attempt in tapping into a viable Naya Build.
It's based off a well-known idea of moderns past - Landfall trigger.
I know it's outdated and outclassed but i still think deserves some attention.
I developed the outdated gameplan a bit further and testings on cockatrice had been with some success.
What did improve? Steppe Lynx into Atarka's Command puts out 11 damage Turn 2 with a solid hand.
Note that i ran 21 Lands whereas 1 of it is "Tool"-land - dryad arbor. It can be tutored by knight and be pumped with Atarka's command.
Steppe Lynx and dryad arbor are bad topdecks though - that's were knight of the reliquary and Elspeth, knight-errant are shacking up things. With 12 fetches knight becomes quickly 4/4+ plus pumping lynx and tutoring arbor. elspeth buffs everyone of these, so a topdecked Lynx isn't that much of a dead card. With Atarka's it is even possible for elspeth to come out T3.
Path to exile and ghor-clan rampager allows removing of hard blockers. Path is able to pump lynx to, which maybe relevant in a few situations.
this list gives much necessary reach, which landfall zoo tends to miss a lot of times. running out of steam on turn 3 is problematic, but my deck has 6 spells that are able to catch your opponent off-guard.
Nut Draws aka T3 - T4 kills
T1 Lynx into T2 Command. Double Fetch, Lynx is now 8/9 + command-bolting your opponent = 11 damage. T3 drop Land + Elspeth, pump Lynx which is now 7/8 = 18 damage on T3.
T1 Lynx into T2 fetch. crack for Arbor, deal 4 damage, play Nacatl = 4 damage. T3 land into Command, pump + bolt. Nacatl + arbor + lynx = 11 damage, 15 damage total. T4 Boros Charm, Bolt etc.
T1 lynx into T2 fetch. crack, command into bolt landdrop = 11 damage. play Nacatl, pass. T3 fetch into elspeth, pump nacatl, dealing 10 in one swing, summing up to 21 damage.
T1 Nacatl. T2 Boar, swing for 3. T3 commanding into pump + bolt = 11 damage, 14 at all. T4 Boros Charm, Bolt, Elspeth...wathever fits best.
T3 knight (4/4) into T4 elspeth, swing for about 7 - 9 damage.
T3 knight into mssing your 4th landdrop, tap 3, sac land for fetchland. crack, tap your fetched land for the 4th consecutive mana into Elspeth. drop a 1/1 soldier. next turn pump token swinging for 8 - 10 damage.
Another idea I have is to use Æther Vial to swarm the board even quicker and cast Bloodthirst creatures.
I've also added Myr Superion which can either be cast from Burning-Tree Emissary or cheated in by A.Vial.
Who cares about top decks if the plan is to win quickly and flood the board ?
Playing 2-drops and vial instead of mostly 1-drops seems better to me.
What's wrong with Kird Ape ?
None of the other 1-drops you mentioned is bigger than him.
And those multicolor-dependent 2-drops seem worse than the Bloodthirst guys.
Seems like too few 1-drops. Also, I'm almost sure you're better off running Kird Ape instead of Experiment One if you don't have BTW. Waiting until T3 to make the EO 3/3 seems decidedly suboptimal.
voltaic brawler is good
You run so much white for no reason, why make deck more painful and less stable? Replace Smiter with Bushwhacker, he is way faster, replace Helixes with 3 Rampager, that would be your antiblocker tech and a Mutagenic to randonly counter Bolt and help in conbat. Replace Monastery with Kird Ape, not enough spells for her, leave two 2-3 white shocks for Nacatl and sideboard cards. Flinthoof is ok. Replace Boris Charm with Burning tree emissary
So I have the brew above that is noticeably lacking Goblin Guide (I can't be bothered to shell out $100 for a single playset of any card, hence why this post is in the budget forum). The current replacement is Monastery Swiftspear, which does a decent impersonation of GG by coming down for R with haste, not dying to Bolt when I have Mutagenic, and occasionally hitting for 2 or more. Last time around I had 3 Flinthoof Boar + 1 Zurgo Bellstriker in the flex slot, but wasn't entirely satisfied with the results. I'm considering using 4 Loam Lion instead, but wanted to pick everyone's brain on what could possibly work..
WDeath and TaxesW
RWGBurnGWR
Imo spirit guide just generates too much card disadvantage to be good. It's a lotus petal instead of a mox opal.
It leads to explosive starts, but you'd normally want it in decks where your explosive start needs to happen asap to avoid being tampered with rather than something as intractable is zoo. They can't thoughtseize your reanimate if griselbrand is already in play before they get to their first turn, but there's nothing stopping them from casting T2 pyroclasm either way.
Essentially you end up trading a turn faster start for cards with reach that help you close out games. Also spirit guide is abysmal anywhere other than your opening 7, where vines of vastwood or dismember could provide that aforementioned utility.
My unbiased math also determines that land > exile spirit guide > BTE > E1 > Goblin Guide only adds one point of damage by the end of turn 3 over the standard land > E1> Pass > land > BTE > Boar.
I haven't seen Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and Scab-Clan Mauler mentioned here, are they a good fit for this deck ?
Here is my idea for a G/R decklist:
4x Experiment One
4x Kird Ape
4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Flinthoof Boar
4x Scab-Clan Mauler
4x Stormblood Berserker
3x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Atarka's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
Enchantment (2)
2x Rancor
Land (20)
4x Cinder Glade
4x Forest
4x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
What do you think ?
Another idea I have is to use Æther Vial to swarm the board even quicker and cast Bloodthirst creatures on the opponent's turn when he fetches or shocks himself with his lands.
I've also added Myr Superion which can either be cast from Burning-Tree Emissary or cheated in by A.Vial.
Here it is:
4x Experiment One
4x Kird Ape
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Flinthoof Boar
4x Scab-Clan Mauler
4x Stormblood Berserker
3x Myr Superion
2x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Atarka's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
Artifact (4)
4x Æther Vial
Land (20)
4x Cinder Glade
4x Forest
4x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
Which build is better ?
Right now I am taking the concept or dark zoo and running a bit tribal now that SOI is coming. Been having success with some of the interactions for more damage output. Usual removal package and burn for the spells to carry though if things are not doing well.
I doubt one of these is slightly competitive.
Vial is a horrendous topdeck, so you should cut it completely.
Kird Ape and the like are dead stuff nowadays.
You can opt for an all-in-build
- Rakdos Cackler
- Dryad Militant
- Burning-Tree Emissary
- Naya Hushblade
- Jund Hackblade
and add Atarka's Command, which hopefully is enough.The other way is about goin' all-in with Steppy Lynx + Nacatl, Swiftspear, Guide.
Add Atarka's Command to the mix and prey your opp runs out of removal pretty quickly.
Naya is in a uncomfortable situation right now, even with goyf.
Grixis, Jund, Burn, Robots, Combo...we got a lot of uphill battles today.
It's not the place for Humans here.
It's more of a synergy-driven theme that Zoo is certainly not.
We want the biggest and most versatile critters around.
The only competitive Budget Zoo build around is Burn Zoo.
Guide, Swiftspear, Nacatl, Eidolon + a lot of Burn.
Nothing else to say here.
Green @ it's best
4 Experiment One
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Fleecemane Lion
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
Land - 20
4 Evolving Wilds
5 Plains
5 Mountain
6 Forest
also, does this kind of list is reliable for ultra-budget?
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Dryad Militant
4x Experiment One
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Hooting Mandrills
4x Kird Ape
4x Stormblood Berserker
4x Strangleroot Geist
1x Kessig Wolf Run
6x Mountain
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Lightning Bolt
Dont play it, its weak and inconsistent.
Play Green Stompy instead, one of the greatest budget decks.
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dryad Militant
4 Experiment One
4 Kalonian Tusker
4 Leatherback Baloth
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Avatar of the Resolute
2 Prey Upon
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Unravel the Æther
2 Hunt the Hunter
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Dismember
3 Feed the Clan
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures (30)
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Dryad Militant
4 Kird Ape
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Atarka's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mutagenic Growth
1 Rancor
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Gut Shot
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Electrickery
1 Flame Slash
3 Faerie Macabre / Tormod's Crypt
2 Tin Street Hooligan
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
It's based off a well-known idea of moderns past - Landfall trigger.
I know it's outdated and outclassed but i still think deserves some attention.
I developed the outdated gameplan a bit further and testings on cockatrice had been with some success.
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
3 temple garden
1 stomping ground
1 sacred foundry
2 plains
1 forest
1 dryad arbor
21 Lands
4 wild nacatl
4 loam lion
11 1-drops
4 Atarka's Command
2 flinthoof boar
4 boros charm
2 ghor-clan rampager
12 2-drops
2 elspeth, knight errant
6 mid-game beaters
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
2 path to exile
10 burn & removal
It's landfall, burn and some more reach.
What did improve?
Steppe Lynx into Atarka's Command puts out 11 damage Turn 2 with a solid hand.
Note that i ran 21 Lands whereas 1 of it is "Tool"-land - dryad arbor. It can be tutored by knight and be pumped with Atarka's command.
Steppe Lynx and dryad arbor are bad topdecks though - that's were knight of the reliquary and Elspeth, knight-errant are shacking up things. With 12 fetches knight becomes quickly 4/4+ plus pumping lynx and tutoring arbor. elspeth buffs everyone of these, so a topdecked Lynx isn't that much of a dead card. With Atarka's it is even possible for elspeth to come out T3.
Path to exile and ghor-clan rampager allows removing of hard blockers. Path is able to pump lynx to, which maybe relevant in a few situations.
this list gives much necessary reach, which landfall zoo tends to miss a lot of times. running out of steam on turn 3 is problematic, but my deck has 6 spells that are able to catch your opponent off-guard.
Nut Draws aka T3 - T4 kills
also splashing U for retreat to coralhelm combo maybe ok here.
Green @ it's best
Who cares about top decks if the plan is to win quickly and flood the board ?
Playing 2-drops and vial instead of mostly 1-drops seems better to me.
What's wrong with Kird Ape ?
None of the other 1-drops you mentioned is bigger than him.
And those multicolor-dependent 2-drops seem worse than the Bloodthirst guys.
Copperline gorge and razorverge thicket are like $10 a piece nowadays putting that deck at like $120 so yeah... Update probably needed there
Here is the list I think of slotting him into:
4x Experiment One
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Loxodon Smiter
4x Atarka's Command
4x Boros Charm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
Land (20)
1x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Plains
3x Sacred Foundry
3x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
I'm not sure whether Flinthoof Boar is worth the mana cost anymore, maybe it should just be Kird Ape (which I also consider over Experiment One/Monastery Swiftspear).
I also consider Ghor-Clan Rampager over Lightning Helix to be more aggressive, which is better here ?
Seems like too few 1-drops. Also, I'm almost sure you're better off running Kird Ape instead of Experiment One if you don't have BTW. Waiting until T3 to make the EO 3/3 seems decidedly suboptimal.
You run so much white for no reason, why make deck more painful and less stable? Replace Smiter with Bushwhacker, he is way faster, replace Helixes with 3 Rampager, that would be your antiblocker tech and a Mutagenic to randonly counter Bolt and help in conbat. Replace Monastery with Kird Ape, not enough spells for her, leave two 2-3 white shocks for Nacatl and sideboard cards. Flinthoof is ok. Replace Boris Charm with Burning tree emissary
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
4 Experiment One
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Kird Ape
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 [flex slots]
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Atarka's Command
2 Mutagenic Growth
2 Rancor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
3 Forest
3 Mountain
So I have the brew above that is noticeably lacking Goblin Guide (I can't be bothered to shell out $100 for a single playset of any card, hence why this post is in the budget forum). The current replacement is Monastery Swiftspear, which does a decent impersonation of GG by coming down for R with haste, not dying to Bolt when I have Mutagenic, and occasionally hitting for 2 or more. Last time around I had 3 Flinthoof Boar + 1 Zurgo Bellstriker in the flex slot, but wasn't entirely satisfied with the results. I'm considering using 4 Loam Lion instead, but wanted to pick everyone's brain on what could possibly work..
Green @ it's best