To IdSurge and others who said that Bridge from Below needed to go - you guys were right. I was partially wrong about this one, mostly because my Bridges usually were near the bottom of the deck or stranded in my hand usually.
I now realize that BOTH Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis AND Bridge from Below need to go. I saw one of those nutty Bridge from Below draws with an opponent who named Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis with Meddling Mage. No problem, 3 Bridge from Below in the yard, Gravecrawler, Carrion Feeder, fetch land, Bloodghasts. 12 Zombies, GGs. I hadn't seen this type of draw because I had done slightly fewer than 20 matches with Hog Vine in tournament play and 20 matches in play testing, mostly against Humans.
*Eldrazi Winter definitely was worse, even if I enjoyed it more. You simply cannot beat that deck without losing to the rest of the meta. (why there is a rest of the meta remains a mystery to me) Hogaak CAN be beaten. It just skews main boards and side boards too much and creates even more of a goldfish environment.
**Umezawa's Jitte does not need to be unbanned. Hogaak and hopefully Bridge will eventually get banned. Please don't use this argument. It's funny that Ross Merriam believes that Jitte should be unbanned, but not Stoneforge Mystic. WTF?!?!?! Jitte further pushes people to play their's first to win creature matches (much of Modern) or play (non creature) Combo to avoid losing to those. I played during Jitte Standard. I know a lot has changed. I still think Jitte would be too much, close to what Punishing Fire does, except it is colorless.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm quite sure that Bridge is the card unless they just want GY decks to be Dredge/Phoenix, at which point its Bridge/Altar. If they want Hogaak to live as a distinct deck, the ban is Bridge only.
**Umezawa's Jitte does not need to be unbanned. Hogaak and hopefully Bridge will eventually get banned. Please don't use this argument. It's funny that Ross Merriam believes that Jitte should be unbanned, but not Stoneforge Mystic. WTF?!?!?! Jitte further pushes people to play their's first to win creature matches (much of Modern) or play (non creature) Combo to avoid losing to those. I played during Jitte Standard. I know a lot has changed. I still think Jitte would be too much, close to what Punishing Fire does, except it is colorless.
played legacy for some years, and my opinion is we are in for some tough games if Jitte is unleashed into modern.
This equipment is some people won't realize it is broken until seen in action.
Wait a minute, just after the deck gets released and abused and is obviously broken and I point that out most of you call me a flamer or a troll, and now you are all saying it should get banned. LOL.
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).
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Infraction issued for trolling — Xaricore
**Umezawa's Jitte does not need to be unbanned. Hogaak and hopefully Bridge will eventually get banned. Please don't use this argument. It's funny that Ross Merriam believes that Jitte should be unbanned, but not Stoneforge Mystic. WTF?!?!?! Jitte further pushes people to play their's first to win creature matches (much of Modern) or play (non creature) Combo to avoid losing to those. I played during Jitte Standard. I know a lot has changed. I still think Jitte would be too much, close to what Punishing Fire does, except it is colorless.
played legacy for some years, and my opinion is we are in for some tough games if Jitte is unleashed into modern.
This equipment is some people won't realize it is broken until seen in action.
I used to think Jitte was fine. But then I built a cube and played Jitte in creature matchups. It just dominates those games.
Stoneforge is totally fine, but Jitte would be too much.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Wait a minute, just after the deck gets released and abused and is obviously broken and I point that out most of you call me a flamer or a troll, and now you are all saying it should get banned. LOL.
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).
You have predicted and/or called for bans/nerfs on Tron cards, ETemple, Chalice, Past in Flames, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Dredge, and now Hogaak Bridge. That's one hit in Dredge, five misses (Tron cards, Temple, Chalice, PiF, Traverse), and one ommision (no KCI). If Hogaak gets banned, you'll be 2 for 7 or 2 for 8, depending on how you score. This is exactly what I was referring to when I talk about throwing darts at a board. If you throw enough, you are bound to hit and then give acclaim to predictive skills when the record clearly shows a less flattering hit rate.
Again, Hogaak may be capital B Busted. It may be bannable. But that doesn't mean we change proven ban prediction methods because the hysteria and alarm was right one time in 10+.
Wait a minute, just after the deck gets released and abused and is obviously broken and I point that out most of you call me a flamer or a troll, and now you are all saying it should get banned. LOL.
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).
I personally never said any of this, so it must be someone else. I admit that the deck should have somethings banned. It took me 20 matches to figure that out, even if I had a feeling right away.
Wait a minute, just after the deck gets released and abused and is obviously broken and I point that out most of you call me a flamer or a troll, and now you are all saying it should get banned. LOL.
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).
You have predicted and/or called for bans/nerfs on Tron cards, ETemple, Chalice, Past in Flames, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Dredge, and now Hogaak Bridge. That's one hit in Dredge, five misses (Tron cards, Temple, Chalice, PiF, Traverse), and one ommision (no KCI). If Hogaak gets banned, you'll be 2 for 7 or 2 for 8, depending on how you score. This is exactly what I was referring to when I talk about throwing darts at a board. If you throw enough, you are bound to hit and then give acclaim to predictive skills when the record clearly shows a less flattering hit rate.
Again, Hogaak may be capital B Busted. It may be bannable. But that doesn't mean we change proven ban prediction methods because the hysteria and alarm was right one time in 10+.
What is my record?
(it must be terrible; I predicted the Stoneforge Unban every B & R announcement since 2013 until the last 2 when I did NOT predict it anymore cuz I got tired)
P.S. - Are you playing a lot now? I know you like some Cheerios, which seems pretty well placed in this meta.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
(it must be terrible; I predicted the Stoneforge Unban every B & R announcement since 2013 until the last 2 when I did NOT predict it anymore cuz I got tired)
Not sure off the top of my head. It was easier to audit Nyzzeh's predictions because they are less active in these threads unless discussing ban stuff; fewer posts to check.
I don't include unban predictions in that record because I have no idea about the logic which governs unbans. I think bans are much more predictable; unbans seem to happen in both unstable and stable metagames whenever Wizards wants.
P.S. - Are you playing a lot now? I know you like some Cheerios, which seems pretty well placed in this meta.
Not too much, actually. More Arena than anything. But I'm always game to rev up the MTGO Cheeri0s list again!
The battle of the sideboards thing is a joke honestly. Do you beat current Dredge without dedicated hate? Absolutely not, after Creeping Chill.
Was anything banned out of Dredge? No, because of Phoenix sucking up air/text space.
I know we cannot have 'reasonable discussion' without metrics and past choices informing our dialogue on the ban list, but lets be real. It's a meaningless exercise. They ban what they want, they unban what they want, and it does not have to make sense.
If the ban logic from 3 or even 2 years ago was in place at Wizards both Dredge (post Chill) and Phoenix would have seen a ban on something already.
Wizards needs to start changing it's design philosophy for Modern cards. Sideboard battles are one thing, but there needs to be some mainboard answers to certain strategies, not just when making a meta deck but in general. Cards like Scavenging Ooze fill that role well.
I literally acknowledged GGT as a ban with minimal GP data, I.e. the battle of sideboards reference you are making, in the post I assume you are responding to. So I don't know why you are framing this as a no GP result = no ban scenario. As I posted on this same page and will repost now, GGT was banned with very few GP results, likely based off MTGO data. Hogaak could be the same case regardless of how the GP plays out. I know you are exceedingly skeptical of Wizards and routinely negative towards Modern over a good chunk of the last 3 years, but that doesn't mean you need to indict Wizards' handling of the current situation. At least, not until after the 8th.
They knew what was going to happen with Eldrazi Winter but that PT still happened.
What do you think the chances are that Wizards leaves Hogaak in with the express purpose of making it the level 0 deck at the Pro Tour, and seeing if the PT can define a new metagame first?
The battle of the sideboards thing is a joke honestly. Do you beat current Dredge without dedicated hate? Absolutely not, after Creeping Chill.
Was anything banned out of Dredge? No, because of Phoenix sucking up air/text space.
I know we cannot have 'reasonable discussion' without metrics and past choices informing our dialogue on the ban list, but lets be real. It's a meaningless exercise. They ban what they want, they unban what they want, and it does not have to make sense.
If the ban logic from 3 or even 2 years ago was in place at Wizards both Dredge (post Chill) and Phoenix would have seen a ban on something already.
Wizards needs to start changing it's design philosophy for Modern cards. Sideboard battles are one thing, but there needs to be some mainboard answers to certain strategies, not just when making a meta deck but in general. Cards like Scavenging Ooze fill that role well.
They do, and they are. Knight of Autumn for example. Great.
The problem is...as I watch Hogaak laugh all over the tables at SCG, is sometimes it just doesnt matter. Thats what Hogaak is. It just doesnt matter.
Right now, if you didnt play Hogaak for your team, you threw.
Either way. There's only so much space in a deck. I've been playing around with Snow Knightfall, and finding space for what we want to do, and react to decks like Hogaak, and not be dead to the rest of the field?
I literally acknowledged GGT as a ban with minimal GP data, I.e. the battle of sideboards reference you are making, in the post I assume you are responding to. So I don't know why you are framing this as a no GP result = no ban scenario. As I posted on this same page and will repost now, GGT was banned with very few GP results, likely based off MTGO data. Hogaak could be the same case regardless of how the GP plays out. I know you are exceedingly skeptical of Wizards and routinely negative towards Modern over a good chunk of the last 3 years, but that doesn't mean you need to indict Wizards' handling of the current situation. At least, not until after the 8th.
They knew what was going to happen with Eldrazi Winter but that PT still happened.
What do you think the chances are that Wizards leaves Hogaak in with the express purpose of making it the level 0 deck at the Pro Tour, and seeing if the PT can define a new metagame first?
The Eldrazi Winter timeline was a little different. The deck was largely off the radar until the PT. Then it broke out big at the PT, but Wizards didn't act immediately. There was significant cause for concern for a month or so, and then a triple GP weekend where Eldrazi ran absolutely rampant. Eye died at the next ban update, and there was no scheduled ban update between the PT and the GP weekend.
With Hogaak, we actually have a B&R update scheduled before the PT, which gives Wizards an opportunity to act. I think this is largely dependent on the results this weekend. If it's a Hogaak fest, we'll probably see a ban based on GP and MTGO performance. If Hogaak falls flat on Day 2 and into the T32/16/8, or just matches performance with other top decks like Izzet Phoenix, Humans, and others, Wizards will probably wait until after the PT. I'm unwilling to make a final prediction until we have the results from this weekend.
Wait a minute, just after the deck gets released and abused and is obviously broken and I point that out most of you call me a flamer or a troll, and now you are all saying it should get banned. LOL.
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).
You have predicted and/or called for bans/nerfs on Tron cards, ETemple, Chalice, Past in Flames, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Dredge, and now Hogaak Bridge. That's one hit in Dredge, five misses (Tron cards, Temple, Chalice, PiF, Traverse), and one ommision (no KCI). If Hogaak gets banned, you'll be 2 for 7 or 2 for 8, depending on how you score. This is exactly what I was referring to when I talk about throwing darts at a board. If you throw enough, you are bound to hit and then give acclaim to predictive skills when the record clearly shows a less flattering hit rate.
Again, Hogaak may be capital B Busted. It may be bannable. But that doesn't mean we change proven ban prediction methods because the hysteria and alarm was right one time in 10+.
You are exaggerating that by a mile, and you know that. Chalice was chalice OR temple when dumbdrazi was dominating the meta. Same for a piece of storm when it was comboing very often on turn3. KCI I wasn't even playing the game. You also forgot when I talked ***** against twin (even though I did not think wizards would ban it, I liked and agreed with the ban), and also forgetting most other bans I also was spot on, from punishing fire to birthing pod. But I guess you memory is waaaay better when it comes to "mistakes". I say "mistakes" but I don't think they were mistakes because I'm sure they were cards on the watch list and discussed during the B/R meetings.
Oh and Tron is just based on a wish of a meta change because its existence kills so many decks, but since it hasn't broken any win% records it has not been touched. But everyone knows they could have banned stirrings very easily based on the same statements of preordain and ponder. So many decks use stirrings to find their pieces that it's not even a case of having to build your deck around it anymore. It's just the last legal OP top or your library cantrip.
I literally acknowledged GGT as a ban with minimal GP data, I.e. the battle of sideboards reference you are making, in the post I assume you are responding to. So I don't know why you are framing this as a no GP result = no ban scenario. As I posted on this same page and will repost now, GGT was banned with very few GP results, likely based off MTGO data. Hogaak could be the same case regardless of how the GP plays out. I know you are exceedingly skeptical of Wizards and routinely negative towards Modern over a good chunk of the last 3 years, but that doesn't mean you need to indict Wizards' handling of the current situation. At least, not until after the 8th.
They knew what was going to happen with Eldrazi Winter but that PT still happened.
What do you think the chances are that Wizards leaves Hogaak in with the express purpose of making it the level 0 deck at the Pro Tour, and seeing if the PT can define a new metagame first?
The Eldrazi Winter timeline was a little different. The deck was largely off the radar until the PT. Then it broke out big at the PT, but Wizards didn't act immediately. There was significant cause for concern for a month or so, and then a triple GP weekend where Eldrazi ran absolutely rampant. Eye died at the next ban update, and there was no scheduled ban update between the PT and the GP weekend.
With Hogaak, we actually have a B&R update scheduled before the PT, which gives Wizards an opportunity to act. I think this is largely dependent on the results this weekend. If it's a Hogaak fest, we'll probably see a ban based on GP and MTGO performance. If Hogaak falls flat on Day 2 and into the T32/16/8, or just matches performance with other top decks like Izzet Phoenix, Humans, and others, Wizards will probably wait until after the PT. I'm unwilling to make a final prediction until we have the results from this weekend.
While I agree I still think it is too broken in its current state given the ability to straight up win on turn 2. It's like an 80%+ game one deck vs the regular field and even postboard it's probably still in reasonable shape even vs someone with 4 leylines.
I've never been one for bannings, I've always liked the idea of modern being left alone unless absolutely necessary. While I agreed that ancient stirrings was very powerful I was never onboard with ban stirrings when it was the dominate card a while ago fueling KCI, Tron etc. Likewise when Pheonix burst on the scene and people starting going crazy over looting I was again against the idea of banning it (also just to note I didn't play a stirrings deck or a looting deck so I didn't have a vested interest).
I do not want wizards to ban multiple cards and kill the deck. It's so completely different to dredge that I consider it an entirely different style of deck so I'm more than fine with multiple graveyard based decks existing. It does need taking down in power though. Banning Altar and seeing how the deck does would be my preferred choice. With Altar gone the deck would be a lot slower to fill the graveyard and would lose the ability to straight up win on turn 2. I have to imagine that Hogaak and Carrion feeder alone are enough of an addition to the deck that it would still be a solid T1 choice.
Bridge in GY off neonate self-sac, getting a 2/2, 2nd neonate on turn ditching vengevine, getting another 2/2, then a stitcher (IIRC), bring back vengevine, then play hogaak.
Something like that.
IN 2nd round, hogaak vs UW control. Hoggak 1st turn bridge in GY, UW immediately surgical extration (1st game, extraction in MD). Few turns later UW wipe 4 or 5 creatures on turn 4 with supreme verdict. Hoogak untaps and put 17 power on the board off 1 mana. (involving a gravecrawler, the black vampire that comes back from GY on land drop, double vengevines jumping back then hoogak.)
I now realize that BOTH Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis AND Bridge from Below need to go. I saw one of those nutty Bridge from Below draws with an opponent who named Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis with Meddling Mage. No problem, 3 Bridge from Below in the yard, Gravecrawler, Carrion Feeder, fetch land, Bloodghasts. 12 Zombies, GGs. I hadn't seen this type of draw because I had done slightly fewer than 20 matches with Hog Vine in tournament play and 20 matches in play testing, mostly against Humans.
*Eldrazi Winter definitely was worse, even if I enjoyed it more. You simply cannot beat that deck without losing to the rest of the meta. (why there is a rest of the meta remains a mystery to me) Hogaak CAN be beaten. It just skews main boards and side boards too much and creates even more of a goldfish environment.
**Umezawa's Jitte does not need to be unbanned. Hogaak and hopefully Bridge will eventually get banned. Please don't use this argument. It's funny that Ross Merriam believes that Jitte should be unbanned, but not Stoneforge Mystic. WTF?!?!?! Jitte further pushes people to play their's first to win creature matches (much of Modern) or play (non creature) Combo to avoid losing to those. I played during Jitte Standard. I know a lot has changed. I still think Jitte would be too much, close to what Punishing Fire does, except it is colorless.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
Abzan 115 28.30%
Burn 48 11.80%
Affinity 28 6.90%
Infect 28 6.90%
Zoo 26 6.40%
Red-Green Tron 19 4.70%
Blue-Red Twin 16 3.90%
Spirits
played legacy for some years, and my opinion is we are in for some tough games if Jitte is unleashed into modern.
This equipment is some people won't realize it is broken until seen in action.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Next time, learn from the master...
Then I make 1 mistake out of 10 and people call me bad because I have a 10% failure rate. Suuuure :).
I used to think Jitte was fine. But then I built a cube and played Jitte in creature matchups. It just dominates those games.
Stoneforge is totally fine, but Jitte would be too much.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
You have predicted and/or called for bans/nerfs on Tron cards, ETemple, Chalice, Past in Flames, Traverse the Ulvenwald, Dredge, and now Hogaak Bridge. That's one hit in Dredge, five misses (Tron cards, Temple, Chalice, PiF, Traverse), and one ommision (no KCI). If Hogaak gets banned, you'll be 2 for 7 or 2 for 8, depending on how you score. This is exactly what I was referring to when I talk about throwing darts at a board. If you throw enough, you are bound to hit and then give acclaim to predictive skills when the record clearly shows a less flattering hit rate.
Again, Hogaak may be capital B Busted. It may be bannable. But that doesn't mean we change proven ban prediction methods because the hysteria and alarm was right one time in 10+.
I personally never said any of this, so it must be someone else. I admit that the deck should have somethings banned. It took me 20 matches to figure that out, even if I had a feeling right away.
What is my record?
(it must be terrible; I predicted the Stoneforge Unban every B & R announcement since 2013 until the last 2 when I did NOT predict it anymore cuz I got tired)
P.S. - Are you playing a lot now? I know you like some Cheerios, which seems pretty well placed in this meta.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)MCQ Results from yesterday: https://twitter.com/ChannelFireball/status/1144808075553120263
Top 64
Hogaak: 18
Izzet Phoenix: 10
Humans: 6
E-Tron: 4
Burn: 3
Mono R Phoenix: 3
Jund: 2
Counters Company: 2
Jeskai Saheeli: 2
Affinity: 2
Other: 12
T8:
1. Hogaak Bridge
2. Orzhov Eldrazi Taxes
3. Hogaak Bridge
4. E-Tron
5. Esper Mentor
6. Izzet Phoenix
7. Izzet Phoenix
8. Thopter Sword
Not sure off the top of my head. It was easier to audit Nyzzeh's predictions because they are less active in these threads unless discussing ban stuff; fewer posts to check.
I don't include unban predictions in that record because I have no idea about the logic which governs unbans. I think bans are much more predictable; unbans seem to happen in both unstable and stable metagames whenever Wizards wants.
Not too much, actually. More Arena than anything. But I'm always game to rev up the MTGO Cheeri0s list again!
Wizards needs to start changing it's design philosophy for Modern cards. Sideboard battles are one thing, but there needs to be some mainboard answers to certain strategies, not just when making a meta deck but in general. Cards like Scavenging Ooze fill that role well.
They knew what was going to happen with Eldrazi Winter but that PT still happened.
What do you think the chances are that Wizards leaves Hogaak in with the express purpose of making it the level 0 deck at the Pro Tour, and seeing if the PT can define a new metagame first?
They do, and they are. Knight of Autumn for example. Great.
The problem is...as I watch Hogaak laugh all over the tables at SCG, is sometimes it just doesnt matter. Thats what Hogaak is. It just doesnt matter.
Right now, if you didnt play Hogaak for your team, you threw.
Either way. There's only so much space in a deck. I've been playing around with Snow Knightfall, and finding space for what we want to do, and react to decks like Hogaak, and not be dead to the rest of the field?
There's only so much space.
Spirits
The Eldrazi Winter timeline was a little different. The deck was largely off the radar until the PT. Then it broke out big at the PT, but Wizards didn't act immediately. There was significant cause for concern for a month or so, and then a triple GP weekend where Eldrazi ran absolutely rampant. Eye died at the next ban update, and there was no scheduled ban update between the PT and the GP weekend.
With Hogaak, we actually have a B&R update scheduled before the PT, which gives Wizards an opportunity to act. I think this is largely dependent on the results this weekend. If it's a Hogaak fest, we'll probably see a ban based on GP and MTGO performance. If Hogaak falls flat on Day 2 and into the T32/16/8, or just matches performance with other top decks like Izzet Phoenix, Humans, and others, Wizards will probably wait until after the PT. I'm unwilling to make a final prediction until we have the results from this weekend.
You are exaggerating that by a mile, and you know that. Chalice was chalice OR temple when dumbdrazi was dominating the meta. Same for a piece of storm when it was comboing very often on turn3. KCI I wasn't even playing the game. You also forgot when I talked ***** against twin (even though I did not think wizards would ban it, I liked and agreed with the ban), and also forgetting most other bans I also was spot on, from punishing fire to birthing pod. But I guess you memory is waaaay better when it comes to "mistakes". I say "mistakes" but I don't think they were mistakes because I'm sure they were cards on the watch list and discussed during the B/R meetings.
Oh and Tron is just based on a wish of a meta change because its existence kills so many decks, but since it hasn't broken any win% records it has not been touched. But everyone knows they could have banned stirrings very easily based on the same statements of preordain and ponder. So many decks use stirrings to find their pieces that it's not even a case of having to build your deck around it anymore. It's just the last legal OP top or your library cantrip.
While I agree I still think it is too broken in its current state given the ability to straight up win on turn 2. It's like an 80%+ game one deck vs the regular field and even postboard it's probably still in reasonable shape even vs someone with 4 leylines.
I've never been one for bannings, I've always liked the idea of modern being left alone unless absolutely necessary. While I agreed that ancient stirrings was very powerful I was never onboard with ban stirrings when it was the dominate card a while ago fueling KCI, Tron etc. Likewise when Pheonix burst on the scene and people starting going crazy over looting I was again against the idea of banning it (also just to note I didn't play a stirrings deck or a looting deck so I didn't have a vested interest).
I do not want wizards to ban multiple cards and kill the deck. It's so completely different to dredge that I consider it an entirely different style of deck so I'm more than fine with multiple graveyard based decks existing. It does need taking down in power though. Banning Altar and seeing how the deck does would be my preferred choice. With Altar gone the deck would be a lot slower to fill the graveyard and would lose the ability to straight up win on turn 2. I have to imagine that Hogaak and Carrion feeder alone are enough of an addition to the deck that it would still be a solid T1 choice.
This is definitely worthy of an emergency ban.
I don't even know what should be banned, I think it'll honestly take both pieces of something.
Hoogak was an extremely horribly designed mistake, and they printed this for modern so there's no excuse to say it slipped their radar.
Spirits
Something like that.
IN 2nd round, hogaak vs UW control. Hoggak 1st turn bridge in GY, UW immediately surgical extration (1st game, extraction in MD). Few turns later UW wipe 4 or 5 creatures on turn 4 with supreme verdict. Hoogak untaps and put 17 power on the board off 1 mana. (involving a gravecrawler, the black vampire that comes back from GY on land drop, double vengevines jumping back then hoogak.)
Spirits