The Karn lock wins points for requiring you to start with only one card in your hand and the other in your sideboard. Most other high-CMC "1-card" combos (e.g. Enduring Ideal, Tooth and Nail, Dragonstorm) require you to have the other pieces in your library, where they're susceptible to being dead draws. And they're often "pieces", plural.
id be surprised if the karn lattice thing becomes a major. maybe as a 1-of plan B or C type of deal, but its (probably) 2 turns worth of mana and is prevented if you can deal 3 damage to a planeswalker (upticking gives you more time to respond, and lattice isnt a main deckable card).
as ktkenshinx said i think karn giving access to (yet another) way to find toolbox-y artifacts (bridge, cage damping sphere, lantern pieces, thopter/sword, etc) is more relevant in the scope of modern.
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The thing this Karn does is give a more Prison style approach to Gx Tron. It also boosts Whir and other Artifact based decks but the fact that gives another angle to a already powerful archetype can't be ignored.
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You can go Turn 3 Karn (7mana) into Turn 4 Karn (4mana)+Lattice... This line of play isn't that difficult to come up... if you play 8Karn + 4 Stirrings it's actually quite easy to pull off. There has been a non-zero amount of times that I've been Turn 3 Karn into Turn 4 Ulamog...
Against Burn for example, if you lock them out of burn spells they don't have a good way to get rid of the 4mana Karn. It's not unbeatable but it's really strong.
I'm not saying Karn and Lattice is completely irrelevant. I'm saying that the reason to hype Karn is Karn himself, plus his synergy with bullet artifacts and Bridge. Lattice is icing. People are focusing on this corner case Lattice combo, when it's just a small reason to talk about the card. It would be like evaluating DOM Teferi and hyping him because it will break Esper Control. Yes, Teferi is clearly a good card, but Teferi in Esper is just missing the best synergies of the card. Karn will also be good, but Lattice is a very small reason for that.
Fair enough I think Karn into Bridge will be old reliable and the more likely line of play as well. Karn into Lattice though is obviously the more exciting thing cause it just locks your opponents mana.
As someone with a personal endless disdain for Ensnaring Bridge, I am far more concerned with that (and other silver bullets Game 1) than any janky Lattice combos.
Well, why is that a bad thing? Most cards (so far) seems relatively fair, and people have been complaining for a while about the Phoenix meta (although it seems to me like it is settling and things will be fine). It's ok to have a non-artificial shake up (as in no bans/unbans) and see where we are going from there in 6-8 months. Hopefully this will also stop the ban/unban discussion for a while as it has become extremely stale.
I personally have no problem with this (so a boatload of new impactful Modern cards), the ripple effects of it will be bothersome. When everything is a wild west (which I currently think will happen) than people will pile upon the few stable decks, and those are currently: Phoenix, Dredge, Whir Prison and Tron. Basically I expect an uptick of all those decks in the coming months (as in total overall metagameshare), while the rest of the metagame gets even more splintered, which makes planning for a tournament a nightmare (cause besides the top 4-5 decks, it makes the format even deeper).
Sure, fun for brewers (as myself), but will be annoying for a lot of people.
Greetings,
Kathal
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Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Anyone else think that Honor the God-Pharaoh might see play? For one more mana than Tormenting Voice, you get Tormenting Voice on a 1/1! And it's on a sorcery, which could get useful!
Teyo, the Shieldmage has the important "You have hexproof" text on a 3-mana walker who doesn't die to Bolt and can protect himself (kinda lamely) but makes himself vulnerable to Bolt in the process. Might see play?
"Angrath's Anger" costs BR but is an Edict for creatures, artifacts, and planeswalkers. Yes, you can force them to sac a walker. Sadly, it's a sorcery, but might this see some play over Dreadbore?
I don't know what to make of Vivien's Arkbow. It's like a rather nerfed Survival of the Fittest: you probably only get 1 creature per turn at most, you can dump Vengevines but you can't chain them, you can't tutor out specific creatures, and you need a deck full of cheap creatures to get value out of it fast. But might that be powerful enough?
Maybe the true value of Teferi, Time Raveler is that he's a bounce spell that prevents your opponent from countering or killing your stuff on your turn. So, he might prove useful as a card that kills two birds with one stone in combo decks' sideboards. Shame he costs 3 mana and is a sorcery-speed guy...
In the meantime, I do think the Karn, the Great Creator into Mycosynth Lattice "1-card" combo will make a splash in Modern. While Eldrazi Tron has a harder time slamming the combo down in 1-2 turns, Gx Tron often has no such trouble, and the omni-Armageddon will help against the combo decks that Gx Tron traditionally has trouble against (e.g. UR Storm). Shame it gets blown up by Tron's own Oblivion Stone, but on the other hand, guess where a great place to put the 4th O. Stone (and Relic of Progenitus) is now...
If you want me tonight, I'll be trying my hardest to break Bolas's Citadel. Built properly, that card is a virtually one-card combo kill because you can dig for Aetherflux Reservoir and kill your opponent with it, but I'm still working out the best balance of life gain, delayed cantrips that boot lands from the top of the deck, and better dig. I've definitely pulled off Turn 4 kills with my primitive deck abusing it...against a goldfish.
Can't you cast suspend spells with the Citadel? Clearly, lotus bloom would probably be in this deck. Hitting lotus bloom gives you access to cast draw spells you might have in hand when trying to combo.
Karn will be a 4-of in mono green tron, I guarantee it. Just having a bridge, a lattice, a 3 sphere, a witchbane orb, and a wurmcoil in the side will be enough to give it game against the majority of the field.
i mean i guess i can understand the concern of the format being put into flux, either with cards from WAR or more likely with horizons. however the existing depth of the format as well as its non-rotating (and expensive) aspects naturally mitigates the meta from such chaotic fluctuations. its true that uncertainty pushes people to seek out proactive and consistent strategies, but much of the format is there already lol. decks already have to take account of and prepare for a broad swath of strategies, interactions, or angles of attack; which in turn makes it harder for something completely new to find some hole or weakness to exploit.
like if im playing jeskai or UW control and this karn picks up (with or without lattice) im not suddenly going to be confused on how or if i can respond since i either already have the tools or know which good ones exist in the vast modern card pool.
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Anyone else think that Honor the God-Pharaoh might see play? For one more mana than Tormenting Voice, you get Tormenting Voice on a 1/1! And it's on a sorcery, which could get useful!
Not sure, but Amass is a very constructed playable mechanic. Attaching a 1/1, or sometimes larger to spells you cast is a fairly decent effect.
from what amass cards have been spoiled so far im pretty underwhelmed. after the first instance of the effect (ie first getting that 0/0 token) each subsequent one is less potent; so in other words there are diminishing returns equating to the difference between getting a 1/1 token and giving a creature +1/+1 counters.
more spoilers on the way though, so maybe something is a little more pushed.
as for the flavor of the mechanic, i think its a miss. maybe they couldnt figure out how to balance creating separate tokens or whatever, but 'amassing' an army by getting one duder that grows doesnt make much sense to me.
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from what amass cards have been spoiled so far im pretty underwhelmed. after the first instance of the effect (ie first getting that 0/0 token) each subsequent one is less potent; so in other words there are diminishing returns equating to the difference between getting a 1/1 token and giving a creature +1/+1 counters.
more spoilers on the way though, so maybe something is a little more pushed.
as for the flavor of the mechanic, i think its a miss. maybe they couldnt figure out how to balance creating separate tokens or whatever, but 'amassing' an army by getting one duder that grows doesnt make much sense to me.
Definitely a flavor miss. But, getting a 2/2 or something isn't bad either, and of course if you aggressively trade off 1/1's that can be really helpful.
Like any mechanic, the cards you get with it are important but this one has a lot of potential.
Ignite the Beacon seems like a nice one-of for UWx over something like the third JtMS. Even as of now just getting JtMS and Teferi HoD (THoD?) already seems nuts, and it could validify playing a singleton Teferi Time Raveler main.
I'm still not sure how Ral, Storm Conduit interacts with storm spells. Does storm's trigger only count as one instance of copying a spell regardless of how many copies you make or does each copy trigger Ral separately?
Ignite the Beacon seems like a nice one-of for UWx over something like the third JtMS. Even as of now just getting JtMS and Teferi HoD (THoD?) already seems nuts, and it could validify playing a singleton Teferi Time Raveler main.
I'm still not sure how Ral, Storm Conduit interacts with storm spells. Does storm's trigger only count as one instance of copying a spell regardless of how many copies you make or does each copy trigger Ral separately?
eh, 5 mana is a little ambitious. instant speed and netting a card is nice, so maybe its plausible. getting a win con or a walker that can disrupt or interact does sound appealing.
as for Ral, i believe it would only trigger at each instance of copies being created. in that regard it would just count the storm trigger. like for example:
copy your next spell twice
vs
copy your next spell, then copy it again
the former would trigger ral once, while the latter would get 2...i think?
I hate tron and I'm extremely happy for this new Karn. It's so broken that it will get something banned from that deck. Hopefully the tower itself (but they will just ban karn), but yes, I know, not the place to talk about that here.
Strom? T3 trinishphere!
Aggro? T3 bridge!
Affinity? Hahahahahaa
Control? just faceroll like you always do, no changes here.
Then if you dont kill it, next turn it gives you another card lol.
I hate tron and I'm extremely happy for this new Karn. It's so broken that it will get something banned from that deck. Hopefully the tower itself (but they will just ban karn), but yes, I know, not the place to talk about that here.
Strom? T3 trinishphere!
Aggro? T3 bridge!
Affinity? Hahahahahaa
Control? just faceroll like you always do, no changes here.
Then if you dont kill it, next turn it gives you another card lol.
I think Karn, the Great Creator has great dissynergy with Gx Tron's Oblivion Stone...except that tutoring for O. Stone is a very real option. I think that will prevent Karn GC from being broken as a result. Yes, I believe Karn GC is at its/his best in Gx Tron, as it's the deck that can cast him, tutor, and play the tutored-for card in one turn the most often (i.e. your opponent is the most likely to get rudely surprised).
O stone? You cut it and add 1 to your SB. Easy.
Against burn the wurmcoil if fine, and if you are a little too much pressured you grab a bottle gnomes or something.
Well you would need a way to reliably get +2 counters on Karn every turn without activiating his +1 loyalty ability, find a way to sacrifice an artifact every turn (for the Nexus), and constantly have more than 5 mana so you can do something with your infinite turns. I don't think it is very likely, and if it is, it's probably a 5+cards combo
This Karn discussion is going exactly the same way as Jace did when he was unbanned. A bunch of hyperbole about a 4 mana spell in a turn 4 format, but look at Karn on his own merits.
His static ability on its own is actually somewhat relevant. There's a decent amount of random artifacts running around modern from Pentad Prism in Ad Naus, to Chromatic Spheres in the mirror to decks like Affinity/Hardened Scales where it completely hoses. Those aren't particuarly high in the meta though (other than Tron) so it's a good thing, but nothing crazy.
His plus 1 is bad on its own. You can use it to make emergency chump blockers out of stars, but unless you want to use Mycosynth lattice or something that turns lands into artifacts (saffronolive did a deck with it recently) you aren't doing much.
His minus ability is his greatest value since it allows you a miracle sideboard plan, but how much better is this than just casting a Wurmcoil/Big Karn on turn 3. You have to give up your sideboard, it has to be <4 CMC artifacts and you have to assemble Tron on turn 3 with the ability to cast something which is about a 20% chance to have Tron and being able to cast 7 mana worth of spells on turn 3.
His ability to combo with Mycosynth Lattic is perhaps his greatest ability, but they need 10 mana to do it in one turn otherwise hand disruption stops them and then you still have countermagic, Lightning Bolt, creatures already in play. That's not to say they won't run the lattice because given up a SB slot to win the game is worthwhile, but this karn is just too overblown. It doesn't make the matchups where Tron suffers better.
His minus ability is his greatest value since it allows you a miracle sideboard plan, but how much better is this than just casting a Wurmcoil/Big Karn on turn 3. You have to give up your sideboard, it has to be <4 CMC artifacts and you have to assemble Tron on turn 3 with the ability to cast something which is about a 20% chance to have Tron and being able to cast 7 mana worth of spells on turn 3.
The -2 ability is really good and actually addresses some of Tron's worst matchups. For instance, Tron can now go T3 Karn into same-turn Bridge for aggro, Trinisphere for combo, Needle/Orb/Cage for different unfair decks, Crucible to stop Field/LD, Spellskite for protection, etc. T3 Karn/Bridge is even stronger with the new London Mulligan rule too, as you can actually take advantage of the fewer cards in your opening hand; Tron already benefited from that rule anyway without this new synergy. This doesn't really affect Tron's SB as they were running some of these cards as bullets anyway: Crucible and Cage, notably. Then it's just a matter of freeing up 1-3 slots for the other bullets.
His ability to combo with Mycosynth Lattic is perhaps his greatest ability, but they need 10 mana to do it in one turn otherwise hand disruption stops them and then you still have countermagic, Lightning Bolt, creatures already in play. That's not to say they won't run the lattice because given up a SB slot to win the game is worthwhile, but this karn is just too overblown. It doesn't make the matchups where Tron suffers better.
Again, this is not remotely his best ability or synergy. T3 Karn Liberated was already a virtual scoop phase play against control and midrange in most cases. T3 new Karn into T4 Lattice is backbreaking against those same decks, sure, but Tron already had the backbreaking T3 play anyway with old Karn. Nothing new here. As I've said numerous times, this is just icing. It's not the thing that makes Karn good alone or in Tron. Karn is good because he directly addresses some Tron problems through a T3 Karn into 1-3 CMC artifact line. Emphasizing the Karn into Lattice line as a reason to play Karn is like focusing on Teferi's self-tuck ability as the reason to play Teferi. Yes, bottoming Teferi does win control grinds, but you were probably already winning from burying them in card and mana advantage from the +1 ability. It's the same with Karn. Karn into Lattice will probably mean game over against control and midrange, but Tron was already winning those matchups. Karn into Bridge/3Sphere/Cage/Crucible/etc., however, is a totally new line that gives Tron new edges in matchups that were historically bad. That's why Karn is good. The Lattice cuteness is at best a neat bonus and at worst a distraction.
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as ktkenshinx said i think karn giving access to (yet another) way to find toolbox-y artifacts (bridge, cage damping sphere, lantern pieces, thopter/sword, etc) is more relevant in the scope of modern.
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I'm not saying Karn and Lattice is completely irrelevant. I'm saying that the reason to hype Karn is Karn himself, plus his synergy with bullet artifacts and Bridge. Lattice is icing. People are focusing on this corner case Lattice combo, when it's just a small reason to talk about the card. It would be like evaluating DOM Teferi and hyping him because it will break Esper Control. Yes, Teferi is clearly a good card, but Teferi in Esper is just missing the best synergies of the card. Karn will also be good, but Lattice is a very small reason for that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
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I personally have no problem with this (so a boatload of new impactful Modern cards), the ripple effects of it will be bothersome. When everything is a wild west (which I currently think will happen) than people will pile upon the few stable decks, and those are currently: Phoenix, Dredge, Whir Prison and Tron. Basically I expect an uptick of all those decks in the coming months (as in total overall metagameshare), while the rest of the metagame gets even more splintered, which makes planning for a tournament a nightmare (cause besides the top 4-5 decks, it makes the format even deeper).
Sure, fun for brewers (as myself), but will be annoying for a lot of people.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Teyo, the Shieldmage has the important "You have hexproof" text on a 3-mana walker who doesn't die to Bolt and can protect himself (kinda lamely) but makes himself vulnerable to Bolt in the process. Might see play?
"Angrath's Anger" costs BR but is an Edict for creatures, artifacts, and planeswalkers. Yes, you can force them to sac a walker. Sadly, it's a sorcery, but might this see some play over Dreadbore?
I don't know what to make of Vivien's Arkbow. It's like a rather nerfed Survival of the Fittest: you probably only get 1 creature per turn at most, you can dump Vengevines but you can't chain them, you can't tutor out specific creatures, and you need a deck full of cheap creatures to get value out of it fast. But might that be powerful enough?
Maybe the true value of Teferi, Time Raveler is that he's a bounce spell that prevents your opponent from countering or killing your stuff on your turn. So, he might prove useful as a card that kills two birds with one stone in combo decks' sideboards. Shame he costs 3 mana and is a sorcery-speed guy...
In the meantime, I do think the Karn, the Great Creator into Mycosynth Lattice "1-card" combo will make a splash in Modern. While Eldrazi Tron has a harder time slamming the combo down in 1-2 turns, Gx Tron often has no such trouble, and the omni-Armageddon will help against the combo decks that Gx Tron traditionally has trouble against (e.g. UR Storm). Shame it gets blown up by Tron's own Oblivion Stone, but on the other hand, guess where a great place to put the 4th O. Stone (and Relic of Progenitus) is now...
If you want me tonight, I'll be trying my hardest to break Bolas's Citadel. Built properly, that card is a virtually one-card combo kill because you can dig for Aetherflux Reservoir and kill your opponent with it, but I'm still working out the best balance of life gain, delayed cantrips that boot lands from the top of the deck, and better dig. I've definitely pulled off Turn 4 kills with my primitive deck abusing it...against a goldfish.
Karn will be a 4-of in mono green tron, I guarantee it. Just having a bridge, a lattice, a 3 sphere, a witchbane orb, and a wurmcoil in the side will be enough to give it game against the majority of the field.
like if im playing jeskai or UW control and this karn picks up (with or without lattice) im not suddenly going to be confused on how or if i can respond since i either already have the tools or know which good ones exist in the vast modern card pool.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I am so salty about Time Wipe...the flavor fail should Exile. I delete them from Time and leave a body how?
Presumably the same way summons erased from a spellbook do? Or forgotten summon spells?
Not sure, but Amass is a very constructed playable mechanic. Attaching a 1/1, or sometimes larger to spells you cast is a fairly decent effect.
more spoilers on the way though, so maybe something is a little more pushed.
as for the flavor of the mechanic, i think its a miss. maybe they couldnt figure out how to balance creating separate tokens or whatever, but 'amassing' an army by getting one duder that grows doesnt make much sense to me.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Definitely a flavor miss. But, getting a 2/2 or something isn't bad either, and of course if you aggressively trade off 1/1's that can be really helpful.
Like any mechanic, the cards you get with it are important but this one has a lot of potential.
I'm still not sure how Ral, Storm Conduit interacts with storm spells. Does storm's trigger only count as one instance of copying a spell regardless of how many copies you make or does each copy trigger Ral separately?
eh, 5 mana is a little ambitious. instant speed and netting a card is nice, so maybe its plausible. getting a win con or a walker that can disrupt or interact does sound appealing.
as for Ral, i believe it would only trigger at each instance of copies being created. in that regard it would just count the storm trigger. like for example:
copy your next spell twice
vs
copy your next spell, then copy it again
the former would trigger ral once, while the latter would get 2...i think?
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Strom? T3 trinishphere!
Aggro? T3 bridge!
Affinity? Hahahahahaa
Control? just faceroll like you always do, no changes here.
Then if you dont kill it, next turn it gives you another card lol.
I think Karn, the Great Creator has great dissynergy with Gx Tron's Oblivion Stone...except that tutoring for O. Stone is a very real option. I think that will prevent Karn GC from being broken as a result. Yes, I believe Karn GC is at its/his best in Gx Tron, as it's the deck that can cast him, tutor, and play the tutored-for card in one turn the most often (i.e. your opponent is the most likely to get rudely surprised).
Against burn the wurmcoil if fine, and if you are a little too much pressured you grab a bottle gnomes or something.
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This Karn discussion is going exactly the same way as Jace did when he was unbanned. A bunch of hyperbole about a 4 mana spell in a turn 4 format, but look at Karn on his own merits.
His static ability on its own is actually somewhat relevant. There's a decent amount of random artifacts running around modern from Pentad Prism in Ad Naus, to Chromatic Spheres in the mirror to decks like Affinity/Hardened Scales where it completely hoses. Those aren't particuarly high in the meta though (other than Tron) so it's a good thing, but nothing crazy.
His plus 1 is bad on its own. You can use it to make emergency chump blockers out of stars, but unless you want to use Mycosynth lattice or something that turns lands into artifacts (saffronolive did a deck with it recently) you aren't doing much.
His minus ability is his greatest value since it allows you a miracle sideboard plan, but how much better is this than just casting a Wurmcoil/Big Karn on turn 3. You have to give up your sideboard, it has to be <4 CMC artifacts and you have to assemble Tron on turn 3 with the ability to cast something which is about a 20% chance to have Tron and being able to cast 7 mana worth of spells on turn 3.
His ability to combo with Mycosynth Lattic is perhaps his greatest ability, but they need 10 mana to do it in one turn otherwise hand disruption stops them and then you still have countermagic, Lightning Bolt, creatures already in play. That's not to say they won't run the lattice because given up a SB slot to win the game is worthwhile, but this karn is just too overblown. It doesn't make the matchups where Tron suffers better.
The -2 ability is really good and actually addresses some of Tron's worst matchups. For instance, Tron can now go T3 Karn into same-turn Bridge for aggro, Trinisphere for combo, Needle/Orb/Cage for different unfair decks, Crucible to stop Field/LD, Spellskite for protection, etc. T3 Karn/Bridge is even stronger with the new London Mulligan rule too, as you can actually take advantage of the fewer cards in your opening hand; Tron already benefited from that rule anyway without this new synergy. This doesn't really affect Tron's SB as they were running some of these cards as bullets anyway: Crucible and Cage, notably. Then it's just a matter of freeing up 1-3 slots for the other bullets.
Again, this is not remotely his best ability or synergy. T3 Karn Liberated was already a virtual scoop phase play against control and midrange in most cases. T3 new Karn into T4 Lattice is backbreaking against those same decks, sure, but Tron already had the backbreaking T3 play anyway with old Karn. Nothing new here. As I've said numerous times, this is just icing. It's not the thing that makes Karn good alone or in Tron. Karn is good because he directly addresses some Tron problems through a T3 Karn into 1-3 CMC artifact line. Emphasizing the Karn into Lattice line as a reason to play Karn is like focusing on Teferi's self-tuck ability as the reason to play Teferi. Yes, bottoming Teferi does win control grinds, but you were probably already winning from burying them in card and mana advantage from the +1 ability. It's the same with Karn. Karn into Lattice will probably mean game over against control and midrange, but Tron was already winning those matchups. Karn into Bridge/3Sphere/Cage/Crucible/etc., however, is a totally new line that gives Tron new edges in matchups that were historically bad. That's why Karn is good. The Lattice cuteness is at best a neat bonus and at worst a distraction.