Potential Turn 4 kill in a few ways right? I'm putting it together for sure. Give me a Hymn variant and I'm pretty close to the deck I was playing when I started the game.
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
Doesn't Kess hurt the Grixis decks? She allows your opponent to just play removal for her, no? Am I missing something here?
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
Doesn't Kess hurt the Grixis decks? She allows your opponent to just play removal for her, no? Am I missing something here?
the opponent doesnt get the effect. if that is what you were thinking.
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I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
1. Card evaluators are notoriously inconsistent. As a recent example, the overwhelming majority of card reviewers had no idea just how impactful Arclight Phoenix would be in late 2018. It singlehandedly created a Tier 1 archetype. Almost everyone missed it. Just like many missed Narset in WAR. This means we need to treat early card evaluations skeptically.
2. Acknowledging point 1, I expect the following cards to see some degree of MD play in various Tier 1-2 decks: Giver (D&T, E&T), Archmage's Charm (Ux), Fact or Fiction (Mono U Tron), FoN (Ux, especially Ux with creatures), Lava Dart (Phoenix), Collector Ouphe (CoCo/Chord decks), Scale Up (Infect), Eladamri's Call (Devoted Company), Scrapyard Recombiner (Hardened ScaleS), and, as you said, Canopy Lands (everywhere).
3. Dozens of cards will see play in various lower tier strategies, potentially improving their playability. There are also tons of cards that create brewing potential. Examples include, but are not limited to, all the Slivers, many of the Goblins, Urza/Sword/Thopter, Urza/Architect, Pillage in Ponza, Seasoned Pyromancer in Mardu, Wrenn and Six in something (cycling lands will make this excellent), Kess in Grixis, etc.
4. Dozens more cards will see significant and impactful SB play. It is important to acknowledge SB cards as much, if not more than, MD cards. It's less obvious to do so, but 2/3 of all competitive Modern games are impacted by SB cards and just as game-defining as MD cards. Force of Vigor alone is huge, as is FoN even just as a SB card.
Ever since what feels like day 3 of previews, I've seen a significant amount of unwarranted negativity around this set. Part of this is probably Wizards' fault by failing to communicate expectations appropriately. But a big responsibility still lies with players, who just are setting expectations unreasonably high for a product that never promised to meet those expectations. Wizards was fairly clear in their articles that the product needs to meet Modern, Commander, Cube, and draft experiences at the same time. Wizards also doesn't need to do deliberate, heavy-handed shakeups of Modern in a format that has evolved organically with every new set. We don't need a Modern TNN or Leovold experiment that totally reshapes the format.
The only notable omissions at this time, that I still expect to happen, would be:
1. BGx throwbacks/reprints/fixes (e.g. Hymn, Deluge, Deed, DRS, etc.)
2. Iconic eternal card throwbacks/fixes (e.g. Wasteland, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Daze)
3. Graveyard hate
Doesn't Kess hurt the Grixis decks? She allows your opponent to just play removal for her, no? Am I missing something here?
Not exactly sure what you mean. The effect is not symmetrical so that's no problem. And if you mean that, because you have a creature, it enables your opponent's removals, whereas otherwise they would be dead cards, that's only partially true. Considering that you can par her with discard, or you can have FoN up when you cast her.
You also don't necessarily have to cast her on curve (i.e. T4). Imho she actually works as a finisher snapcaster. She basically allows you to re-buy cards and, as a result, snapcasters (since you can reuse your K.Commands) much more efficiently than Tasigur which was often the finisher of choice.
In addition, she allows you to play your snapcasters more aggressively in the early game, because you will have a permanent effect later on.
Overall she seems great as a 2-of finisher!
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
Depends really on what your interpretation of maindeckable is.
If you mean they'll be played main deck as people experiment with new cards? For sure.
In the long term? Not really, half of that list of cards won't be able to carve a spot for themselves in Modern past the experimental period because they can't hack it in the Modern arms race.
Not to say they aren't good cards, but there could just be no home for them yet. Fallen Shinobi for example, is there a UB deck that's interested in proactively attacking to trigger ninjutsu? What about Ice-fang Coatl, is there a UG deck that wants to run enough snow permanents for that payoff?
Even something like Ranger-Captain that at 1st glance seems like a auto-include in 5C Humans but is actually just one of the many flex slot considerations. White Weenie or D&T could be more playable with it and Giver of Runes but they don't really address the main problems of those archetypes either.
We still have more spoilers coming up so fingers-crossed.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I'm very optimistic about a number of cards in this set. I'm not sure how anyone isn't, unless they were expecting a bunch of things to slot directly into Phoenix or Dredge or Jund.
Scrap Reclaimer won't be played because nobody is going to want to play Hardened scales :*(
Our placings have already fallen off a cliff after Tron started mainboarding 4 great creators and UW continued rising. After green gets ouphe and humans splits its side between creatures and enchantments it's gonna be tough to come up with a reason to play the deck lol.
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Scrap Reclaimer won't be played because nobody is going to want to play Hardened scales :*(
Our placings have already fallen off a cliff after Tron started mainboarding 4 great creators. After green gets ouphe and humans splits its side between creatures and enchantments it's gonna be tough to come up with a reason to play the deck lol.
I discourage people from thinking about Modern decks this way. Look at something like Affinity, Storm, or Infect, all time-honored Modern decks that have come in and out of top-tier finishes for literal years. A deck with HS's competitive pedigree doesn't simply become irrelevant overnight. It might fall out of mass favor, but it will still be an excellent choice for experienced pilots. Scrappy should be quite happy in its new home.
if the green stony silence bear becomes a thing, just transition to vanilla affinity which runs actual removal spells. hell you dont even need metalcraft to galv blast it.
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Referring to the posts in this this thread within the last ~day, please keep them on-topic about the new Horizons spoilers. Some speculation is fine, but it is ultimately meaningless and better off in the "Print this Wizards (so I can play it in modern)" thread. Also refrain from going completely off-topic and just talking about the SCG tournament as this isn't the place for it and just clutters this thread with spam.
Consider this a warning for the thread, and future issues to be infracted.
if the green stony silence bear becomes a thing, just transition to vanilla affinity which runs actual removal spells. hell you dont even need metalcraft to galv blast it.
As someone who loses hard to Affinity, I thought that, too, and then I thought about how many ways Affinity has to make red mana when this creature is out. I think it's 4. For 2 mana, I'll take it.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I understand that many of you will disagree, but I have yet to see a single main deck playable level card spoiled from MH1, excluding the slivers and the canopy land cycle.
if the green stony silence bear becomes a thing, just transition to vanilla affinity which runs actual removal spells. hell you dont even need metalcraft to galv blast it.
As someone who loses hard to Affinity, I thought that, too, and then I thought about how many ways Affinity has to make red mana when this creature is out. I think it's 4. For 2 mana, I'll take it.
Most Affinity lists play 1-2 Mountains and 3-4 Glimmervoids/Spires for a total of 5 red non-artifact red sources. So that's 4 Blasts and 5 sources to cast it. That's about a 17% to get the combo in your opening hand, 22% on the second draw, 26% on the third, 31% on the fourth, and 35.5% on the fifth. Cumulatively, you have a 36% chance of getting it by draw 2, 42% by draw 3, 49% by draw 4, and 55% by draw 5. Reasonable odds but not good ones. Ouphe is still very strong against Affinity, especially if you can protect it or recur it.
if the green stony silence bear becomes a thing, just transition to vanilla affinity which runs actual removal spells. hell you dont even need metalcraft to galv blast it.
As someone who loses hard to Affinity, I thought that, too, and then I thought about how many ways Affinity has to make red mana when this creature is out. I think it's 4. For 2 mana, I'll take it.
Most Affinity lists play 1-2 Mountains and 3-4 Glimmervoids/Spires for a total of 5 red non-artifact red sources. So that's 4 Blasts and 5 sources to cast it. That's about a 17% to get the combo in your opening hand, 22% on the second draw, 26% on the third, 31% on the fourth, and 35.5% on the fifth. Cumulatively, you have a 36% chance of getting it by draw 2, 42% by draw 3, 49% by draw 4, and 55% by draw 5. Reasonable odds but not good ones. Ouphe is still very strong against Affinity, especially if you can protect it or recur it.
which doesnt even include cases where you can just float red mana with drum or opal
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The only notable omissions at this time, that I still expect to happen, would be:
1. BGx throwbacks/reprints/fixes (e.g. Hymn, Deluge, Deed, DRS, etc.)
2. Iconic eternal card throwbacks/fixes (e.g. Wasteland, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Daze)
3. Graveyard hate
There are also several unknown artifact and land slots available to address some of these callbacks; Dust Bowl is still possible, even if all of either the Onslaught cycling or Mirage fetch lands are in.
Ouphe is excellent. Full stop. It's a maindeckable bullet in toolbox decks and a solid SB plan for everyone else in green. Claim doesn't touch it and Explosives doesn't either. Just watch out for Blast Zone in decks that can support it.
Yaegmoth seems very strong. Draws lots of cards with two Undying creatures in play. Definitely a sweet, Bolt-proof engine that also wrecks opposing creature decks: sign me up. I need izzetmage to tell me if this is good in aristocrats decks.
EDIT: And we get Eladamri's Call. Instant speed 2 mana tutor seems EXTREMELY playable.
I’m extremely interested in Yawgmoth. I don’t know if Aristocrats is the deck for it, I was thinking Humans oddly enough, but that might not be it either. Yawgmoth is exactly what you want out of 4 drops in this format in that it makes blocking damn near impossible for the opponent, and while you can’t proliferate right away even a swing back after you play it can be massively screwed up with just blocks, 1/1 counters, and then drawing cards.
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Spirits
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Spirits
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Doesn't Kess hurt the Grixis decks? She allows your opponent to just play removal for her, no? Am I missing something here?
Yes, I meant that none of those seem maindeckable in today's modern metagame.
I may be wrong, as some of them seem borderline playable (maybe as a 1-2 of), but that's my initial assessment.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
maybe you need to evaluate better
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)1. Card evaluators are notoriously inconsistent. As a recent example, the overwhelming majority of card reviewers had no idea just how impactful Arclight Phoenix would be in late 2018. It singlehandedly created a Tier 1 archetype. Almost everyone missed it. Just like many missed Narset in WAR. This means we need to treat early card evaluations skeptically.
2. Acknowledging point 1, I expect the following cards to see some degree of MD play in various Tier 1-2 decks: Giver (D&T, E&T), Archmage's Charm (Ux), Fact or Fiction (Mono U Tron), FoN (Ux, especially Ux with creatures), Lava Dart (Phoenix), Collector Ouphe (CoCo/Chord decks), Scale Up (Infect), Eladamri's Call (Devoted Company), Scrapyard Recombiner (Hardened ScaleS), and, as you said, Canopy Lands (everywhere).
3. Dozens of cards will see play in various lower tier strategies, potentially improving their playability. There are also tons of cards that create brewing potential. Examples include, but are not limited to, all the Slivers, many of the Goblins, Urza/Sword/Thopter, Urza/Architect, Pillage in Ponza, Seasoned Pyromancer in Mardu, Wrenn and Six in something (cycling lands will make this excellent), Kess in Grixis, etc.
4. Dozens more cards will see significant and impactful SB play. It is important to acknowledge SB cards as much, if not more than, MD cards. It's less obvious to do so, but 2/3 of all competitive Modern games are impacted by SB cards and just as game-defining as MD cards. Force of Vigor alone is huge, as is FoN even just as a SB card.
Ever since what feels like day 3 of previews, I've seen a significant amount of unwarranted negativity around this set. Part of this is probably Wizards' fault by failing to communicate expectations appropriately. But a big responsibility still lies with players, who just are setting expectations unreasonably high for a product that never promised to meet those expectations. Wizards was fairly clear in their articles that the product needs to meet Modern, Commander, Cube, and draft experiences at the same time. Wizards also doesn't need to do deliberate, heavy-handed shakeups of Modern in a format that has evolved organically with every new set. We don't need a Modern TNN or Leovold experiment that totally reshapes the format.
The only notable omissions at this time, that I still expect to happen, would be:
1. BGx throwbacks/reprints/fixes (e.g. Hymn, Deluge, Deed, DRS, etc.)
2. Iconic eternal card throwbacks/fixes (e.g. Wasteland, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Daze)
3. Graveyard hate
You also don't necessarily have to cast her on curve (i.e. T4). Imho she actually works as a finisher snapcaster. She basically allows you to re-buy cards and, as a result, snapcasters (since you can reuse your K.Commands) much more efficiently than Tasigur which was often the finisher of choice.
In addition, she allows you to play your snapcasters more aggressively in the early game, because you will have a permanent effect later on.
Overall she seems great as a 2-of finisher!
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Depends really on what your interpretation of maindeckable is.
If you mean they'll be played main deck as people experiment with new cards? For sure.
In the long term? Not really, half of that list of cards won't be able to carve a spot for themselves in Modern past the experimental period because they can't hack it in the Modern arms race.
Not to say they aren't good cards, but there could just be no home for them yet. Fallen Shinobi for example, is there a UB deck that's interested in proactively attacking to trigger ninjutsu? What about Ice-fang Coatl, is there a UG deck that wants to run enough snow permanents for that payoff?
Even something like Ranger-Captain that at 1st glance seems like a auto-include in 5C Humans but is actually just one of the many flex slot considerations. White Weenie or D&T could be more playable with it and Giver of Runes but they don't really address the main problems of those archetypes either.
We still have more spoilers coming up so fingers-crossed.
Our placings have already fallen off a cliff after Tron started mainboarding 4 great creators and UW continued rising. After green gets ouphe and humans splits its side between creatures and enchantments it's gonna be tough to come up with a reason to play the deck lol.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
I discourage people from thinking about Modern decks this way. Look at something like Affinity, Storm, or Infect, all time-honored Modern decks that have come in and out of top-tier finishes for literal years. A deck with HS's competitive pedigree doesn't simply become irrelevant overnight. It might fall out of mass favor, but it will still be an excellent choice for experienced pilots. Scrappy should be quite happy in its new home.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Consider this a warning for the thread, and future issues to be infracted.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
As someone who loses hard to Affinity, I thought that, too, and then I thought about how many ways Affinity has to make red mana when this creature is out. I think it's 4. For 2 mana, I'll take it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Most Affinity lists play 1-2 Mountains and 3-4 Glimmervoids/Spires for a total of 5 red non-artifact red sources. So that's 4 Blasts and 5 sources to cast it. That's about a 17% to get the combo in your opening hand, 22% on the second draw, 26% on the third, 31% on the fourth, and 35.5% on the fifth. Cumulatively, you have a 36% chance of getting it by draw 2, 42% by draw 3, 49% by draw 4, and 55% by draw 5. Reasonable odds but not good ones. Ouphe is still very strong against Affinity, especially if you can protect it or recur it.
Some sort of Black Devotion/aristocrats build?? I mean Black Devotion has been played in the past.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)There are also several unknown artifact and land slots available to address some of these callbacks; Dust Bowl is still possible, even if all of either the Onslaught cycling or Mirage fetch lands are in.
I’m extremely interested in Yawgmoth. I don’t know if Aristocrats is the deck for it, I was thinking Humans oddly enough, but that might not be it either. Yawgmoth is exactly what you want out of 4 drops in this format in that it makes blocking damn near impossible for the opponent, and while you can’t proliferate right away even a swing back after you play it can be massively screwed up with just blocks, 1/1 counters, and then drawing cards.