Most Loam decks I've played are heavier in red for T1 Faithless Looting, so Seismic Assault seems better than Ayula's Influence.
I've played assault loam awhile ago and found a few filter and stomping grounds/blood crypts etc. And it worked fairly easily for the t1 faithless and seismic and still Ravens crime etc. But I do agree that 1 red t1 and 3g turn 3 is a little strenuous for very little upgrade if one at all.
I'm not expecting Counterspell. Especially after Prohibit Flusterstorm, and Force.
Even if it was in, it's functionally the same as Logic Knot 99% of the time. It would be a good upgrade from that, but nothing crazy good or format altering.
Thing about Flusterstorm is that I'm not sure if it counts towards the actual count of counterspells in the set because it's the BaB. I was reading an article earlier about how it was added to the set after all the other cards were finalized. Additionally, we have no unconditional counter yet and most sets have one. With the norm being 3 or 4 counters per set, I would assume we have a reasonable chance to have 1 more if Flusterstorm isn't counted.
I still have hope for Counterspell. We have 3 slots for it in the name and number crunch still.
I also don't think Logic Knot is the same 99% of the time, but that could be a whole new thread.
I also don't think Logic Knot is the same 99% of the time, but that could be a whole new thread.
I spent 6 months casting Knot in UW (and find it unplayable in just about every other blue shell for various other reasons). It was Counterspell most of the time. But it's mediocrity wasn't due to not being able to pay enough for X. Rather, the largest factors for its mediocrity were on-cast triggers, activated/triggered abilities, Cavern of Souls, and Aether Vial. Counterspell just ain't what it used to be. They're much more effective when trying to protect what you're doing than trying to stop what they're doing. Battlecruiser at its finest.
Thing about Flusterstorm is that I'm not sure if it counts towards the actual count of counterspells in the set because it's the BaB. I was reading an article earlier about how it was added to the set after all the other cards were finalized. Additionally, we have no unconditional counter yet and most sets have one. With the norm being 3 or 4 counters per set, I would assume we have a reasonable chance to have 1 more if Flusterstorm isn't counted.
I still have hope for Counterspell. We have 3 slots for it in the name and number crunch still.
I also don't think Logic Knot is the same 99% of the time, but that could be a whole new thread.
Well flusterstorm already exists. I'm still shocked the price jumped at its reveal, given that it is a 1-2 of in legacy sideboards, max. That is way more likely to be an example of one printing being significantly more expensive than others. I hope nobody is buying it at $30+.
I also don't think Logic Knot is the same 99% of the time, but that could be a whole new thread.
I spent 6 months casting Knot in UW (and find it unplayable in just about every other blue shell for various other reasons). It was Counterspell most of the time. But it's mediocrity wasn't due to not being able to pay enough for X. Rather, the largest factors for its mediocrity were on-cast triggers, activated/triggered abilities, Cavern of Souls, and Aether Vial. Counterspell just ain't what it used to be. They're much more effective when trying to protect what you're doing than trying to stop what they're doing. Battlecruiser at its finest.
Yes, they're similar at the beginning of the game, but Logic Knot sort of dictates that you not run more than 3 of them and you very rarely Snap them back. I've been playing Silumgar's Scorn in this for awhile and Snapping back what amounts to actually Counterspell over and over again plays very differently than Logic Knot. I am never counting my grave to see if I can keep my overpriced win condition alive against a T9 Path to Exile. I can almost always Snap a Scorn without having to consider if I'm depleting too many resources for late game Knots.
At a minimum, the wide and obvious claim that Counterspell would just replace the strange x1-2 Negates/Knot/Something is absolutely true. Because you're replacing all the conditionals with just one absolute, you are more likely to just have the right counter at the right time.
One specific match up that surprised me was Tron- the most popular deck in the format, at the moment. Knot isn't going to be very effective, they have tons of mana to pay, but Counterspell is always going to outclass their one spell per turn strategy. Trust me, once you cast your 5th Counterspell against Tron, you'll never want Knot back.
The bullet point differences are:
Better deck building - No balancing these vs those counters
Higher chances of having a relevant counter - Double tapping that deck building
Much easier to Snap back - A seriously underrated advantage, they go miles further
I do, however, totally agree that there are a ton of ways around all counters. We are no longer just accounting for a x1 Thrun, we need to win the land fight to bypass Cavern of Souls, we need to bring Artifact hate to bypass the Aether Vial rushes, we need to be aware of the growing hand hate that threatens to remove more relevant things than Counters.
"Counterspell isn't what it used to be." I agree, I've said it myself, but that just means we need it now more than ever.
Holy moly, will you look at Splicer's Skill! It's got Splice onto instant or sorcery for 3W, and it makes a 3/3 colourless Golem artifact creature token. On its own, it's a sorcery that costs 2W. UWx Control tends to be a spellslinger nowadays, so Splicer's Skill might fit there as long as you like expensive cantrips, removal, and counterspells. It also makes late-game targeted discard better if you feel like this in Junk Midrange. Yes, the token is produced after the Terminus this is spliced to tucks all creatures. And yes, this is nuts Spliced onto Storm and Replicate spells before they copy themselves.
Holy moly, will you look at Splicer's Skill! It's got Splice onto instant or sorcery for 3W, and it makes a 3/3 colourless Golem artifact creature token. On its own, it's a sorcery that costs 2W. UWx Control tends to be a spellslinger nowadays, so Splicer's Skill might fit there as long as you like expensive cantrips, removal, and counterspells. It also makes late-game targeted discard better if you feel like this in Junk Midrange. Yes, the token is produced after the Terminus this is spliced to tucks all creatures. And yes, this is nuts Spliced onto Storm and Replicate spells before they copy themselves.
I misread the card initially; I thought it was spice onto Arcane. Splice onto instant/sorcery is amaaaazzingggg. Being a sorcery itself is weird, but splicing onto an instant at instant speed is bonkers good for repeatable blockers/threats.
I actually really like Force of Virtue. It could be very powerful in some variety of White devotion / Token deck. I get that's very niche, but it could also be worthwhile in White aggro as well.
From a devotion perspective, it works really well because you can maindeck this, Leyline of Sanctity, and Leyline of the Meek, giving you 12 cards that can basically be cast turn 1 at no cost, provide 2 white devotion, and fit within a maindeck-worthy shell. This makes for fairly easy and consistent 6 mana turn 3 plays.
I'm not expecting Counterspell. Especially after Prohibit Flusterstorm, and Force.
Even if it was in, it's functionally the same as Logic Knot 99% of the time. It would be a good upgrade from that, but nothing crazy good or format altering.
I've had lots of games where you can't counter something because they can pay the mana for it since your graveyard is garbage. Snapcaster + Logic Knot is also really rough. When your answer is reliant on the graveyard it just feels terrible since your opponent can just do math and say "I can play this and he can't do anything". Logic Knot also doesn't synergize with Rest in Peace or Search for Azcanta.
I'm not expecting Counterspell. Especially after Prohibit Flusterstorm, and Force.
Even if it was in, it's functionally the same as Logic Knot 99% of the time. It would be a good upgrade from that, but nothing crazy good or format altering.
I've had lots of games where you can't counter something because they can pay the mana for it since your graveyard is garbage. Snapcaster + Logic Knot is also really rough. When your answer is reliant on the graveyard it just feels terrible since your opponent can just do math and say "I can play this and he can't do anything". Logic Knot also doesn't synergize with Rest in Peace or Search for Azcanta.
We are not in disagreement. Counterspell is better than Logic Knot. But the times it is better are perhaps relevant once in a dozen or so matches. I personally found Cavern, Vial, on-cast triggers, and multitude of small spells much more difficult overall to deal with (and much more frequently the problem with Knot) than either the X cost or the GY interaction.
I spent months playing the card in a nearly all-foil UW build, and am abundantly aware of Knot's shortcomings. I would love Counterspell. WOTC has given no indication they would ever give it to us. Given the texture of the format, it's not even the end of the world to not have it.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
PRecisely because we have logic knot that they must have included counterspell. It makes no sense!!
I am sorry to crush your dreams, but Counterspell got officially disconfirmed in the current Weekly MTG stream. But as stated previously hoping for Counterspell was naive anyways.
With putting the real Counterspell into the first straight to modern set, they would have just killed a ton of designspace, as they would make all other 2CMC counters obsolete at an instant. Thereby limiting their options for future sets.
I am sorry to crush your dreams, but Counterspell got officially disconfirmed in the current Weekly MTG stream. But as stated previously hoping for Counterspell was naive anyways.
With putting the real Counterspell into the first straight to modern set, they would have just killed a ton of designspace, as they would make all other 2CMC counters obsolete at an instant. Thereby limiting their options for future sets.
Just want to point out, that Wizard nearly put Counterspell into Dominaria to strengthen the feeling of that set, but they decided against it, since they thought it might be too good in combination with Teferi in Standard. Maro has written something about this IIRC.
So, theyself already wanted to have Counterspell in Modern (via a Standard legal set), but they decided against it (it was rather late in development too IIRC). So the barrier is relative low for it. The simple reason, why Counterspell is NOT in this Modern exclusive set might be, that they already thought, that Counterspell will be in Modern due to Dominaria.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
didnt the counterspell in dominaria rumor start on an offhand remark from maro saying they brought it up then immediately dismissed it? afaik there isnt any confirmation that wizards thought of it as a serious candidate. the way i see it counterspell-in-modern proponents just took that and ran with it, and now its 'hey look, they almost printed it in standard! (therefore it must be fine for modern)'. /shrug
anywho, while its disappointing to know that counterspell wont be joining the format, a confirmation of my lingering doubts given the spoilers so far is better than nothing i guess.
congrats they get to keep all that interesting design space for 2 cmc counters /rollseyes.
the whole point about the logic knot to counterspell comparison is that they are functionally the same card. its not some involved deck building choice cobbling together conditional 2 cmc counters, because at the end of the day you put them into your deck with the intention of countering a spell for 2 mana; the primary difference with the current suite is that a good portion of the time the cards just dont do what you wanted them to; typically dealing with game context rather than card context. this differs from removal or other answer cards because their narrowness is upfront and explicit. but whatever, it is what it is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Well I make the case obsoleting all other 2 CMC counterpsells is the point.
Logic Knot can be fine late game sure but early game the cost reduction from delve aint helping you much. Especially against anyone with mana acceleration be it guides, dorks, tron lands, etc.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I actually really like Force of Virtue. It could be very powerful in some variety of White devotion / Token deck. I get that's very niche, but it could also be worthwhile in White aggro as well.
From a devotion perspective, it works really well because you can maindeck this, Leyline of Sanctity, and Leyline of the Meek, giving you 12 cards that can basically be cast turn 1 at no cost, provide 2 white devotion, and fit within a maindeck-worthy shell. This makes for fairly easy and consistent 6 mana turn 3 plays.
Instantly what I thought of as well. And any extra leylines you just pitch to the force. It's definitely interesting to me. Never really worked with tokens.but it definitely seems to fit in that shell. I threw it into a BW variant but think there's room to go elsewhere as well.
I mean the only time Force of Virtue cost reduction helps you is if your opponent full swings all their creatures when your tapped out (so they don't expect the trap) with a bunch of creatures on your side as well so its what a Human vs Human/Spirits mirror breaker? Cause the most likely thing a person does is reach for their boardwipe of choice of which most of them care about CMC or are unconditional.
I've played assault loam awhile ago and found a few filter and stomping grounds/blood crypts etc. And it worked fairly easily for the t1 faithless and seismic and still Ravens crime etc. But I do agree that 1 red t1 and 3g turn 3 is a little strenuous for very little upgrade if one at all.
EDIT: I keep misreading cards this season. Still works if you've kept a bunch of lands : p
I have no nails left -.-
Even if it was in, it's functionally the same as Logic Knot 99% of the time. It would be a good upgrade from that, but nothing crazy good or format altering.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I still have hope for Counterspell. We have 3 slots for it in the name and number crunch still.
I also don't think Logic Knot is the same 99% of the time, but that could be a whole new thread.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I spent 6 months casting Knot in UW (and find it unplayable in just about every other blue shell for various other reasons). It was Counterspell most of the time. But it's mediocrity wasn't due to not being able to pay enough for X. Rather, the largest factors for its mediocrity were on-cast triggers, activated/triggered abilities, Cavern of Souls, and Aether Vial. Counterspell just ain't what it used to be. They're much more effective when trying to protect what you're doing than trying to stop what they're doing. Battlecruiser at its finest.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Well flusterstorm already exists. I'm still shocked the price jumped at its reveal, given that it is a 1-2 of in legacy sideboards, max. That is way more likely to be an example of one printing being significantly more expensive than others. I hope nobody is buying it at $30+.
At a minimum, the wide and obvious claim that Counterspell would just replace the strange x1-2 Negates/Knot/Something is absolutely true. Because you're replacing all the conditionals with just one absolute, you are more likely to just have the right counter at the right time.
One specific match up that surprised me was Tron- the most popular deck in the format, at the moment. Knot isn't going to be very effective, they have tons of mana to pay, but Counterspell is always going to outclass their one spell per turn strategy. Trust me, once you cast your 5th Counterspell against Tron, you'll never want Knot back.
The bullet point differences are:
I do, however, totally agree that there are a ton of ways around all counters. We are no longer just accounting for a x1 Thrun, we need to win the land fight to bypass Cavern of Souls, we need to bring Artifact hate to bypass the Aether Vial rushes, we need to be aware of the growing hand hate that threatens to remove more relevant things than Counters.
"Counterspell isn't what it used to be." I agree, I've said it myself, but that just means we need it now more than ever.
"Reveal a Dragon"
In the meantime, I suppose Generous Gift, the white Beast Within, might get useful somewhere.
I misread the card initially; I thought it was spice onto Arcane. Splice onto instant/sorcery is amaaaazzingggg. Being a sorcery itself is weird, but splicing onto an instant at instant speed is bonkers good for repeatable blockers/threats.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
From a devotion perspective, it works really well because you can maindeck this, Leyline of Sanctity, and Leyline of the Meek, giving you 12 cards that can basically be cast turn 1 at no cost, provide 2 white devotion, and fit within a maindeck-worthy shell. This makes for fairly easy and consistent 6 mana turn 3 plays.
We are not in disagreement. Counterspell is better than Logic Knot. But the times it is better are perhaps relevant once in a dozen or so matches. I personally found Cavern, Vial, on-cast triggers, and multitude of small spells much more difficult overall to deal with (and much more frequently the problem with Knot) than either the X cost or the GY interaction.
I spent months playing the card in a nearly all-foil UW build, and am abundantly aware of Knot's shortcomings. I would love Counterspell. WOTC has given no indication they would ever give it to us. Given the texture of the format, it's not even the end of the world to not have it.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I am sorry to crush your dreams, but Counterspell got officially disconfirmed in the current Weekly MTG stream. But as stated previously hoping for Counterspell was naive anyways.
With putting the real Counterspell into the first straight to modern set, they would have just killed a ton of designspace, as they would make all other 2CMC counters obsolete at an instant. Thereby limiting their options for future sets.
It is not a fixed Stoneforge, it is a fixed (and playable) Goblin Welder.
Just want to point out, that Wizard nearly put Counterspell into Dominaria to strengthen the feeling of that set, but they decided against it, since they thought it might be too good in combination with Teferi in Standard. Maro has written something about this IIRC.
So, theyself already wanted to have Counterspell in Modern (via a Standard legal set), but they decided against it (it was rather late in development too IIRC). So the barrier is relative low for it. The simple reason, why Counterspell is NOT in this Modern exclusive set might be, that they already thought, that Counterspell will be in Modern due to Dominaria.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
anywho, while its disappointing to know that counterspell wont be joining the format, a confirmation of my lingering doubts given the spoilers so far is better than nothing i guess.
congrats they get to keep all that interesting design space for 2 cmc counters /rollseyes.
the whole point about the logic knot to counterspell comparison is that they are functionally the same card. its not some involved deck building choice cobbling together conditional 2 cmc counters, because at the end of the day you put them into your deck with the intention of countering a spell for 2 mana; the primary difference with the current suite is that a good portion of the time the cards just dont do what you wanted them to; typically dealing with game context rather than card context. this differs from removal or other answer cards because their narrowness is upfront and explicit. but whatever, it is what it is.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Logic Knot can be fine late game sure but early game the cost reduction from delve aint helping you much. Especially against anyone with mana acceleration be it guides, dorks, tron lands, etc.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Instantly what I thought of as well. And any extra leylines you just pitch to the force. It's definitely interesting to me. Never really worked with tokens.but it definitely seems to fit in that shell. I threw it into a BW variant but think there's room to go elsewhere as well.