I really feel like they put Force of Will on that list just to make the video an edgy discussion topic. It's just frustrating to see the desire for a free counterspell when we don't even have actual Counterspell yet and the chance of them allowing both Force and Counterspell in at the same time seems abysmal to me.
But my bias is pretty clear too, so take that as you will.
I disagree with them on Counterspell, but I like them exploring cards that are actually worth discussing (compared to that CFB article a while ago discussing why Sneak Attack would be bad for Modern - no *****). FoW is definitely the most controversial inclusion in the Horizons discussion and although I don't see it happen I also don't think FoW would be so bad for Modern.
The only deck, I'm aware of would be Ad Nauseam, but there it is rather meh compared to Prism and Lotus Bloom. Otherwise, the Bolas Zitadel combo deck would like it.
Regarding FoW: The biggest problem is: There are little to none real combo decks out there. There is no classic A+B deck but Ad Nauseam (which has had never problems with counters due to how the deck works) and Griselbanned. And lets be real, both are in reality neglectable in Modern context, since the given metagame share is close to irrelevant.
FoW is really meh against Dredge or Tron, the other "boogeymans" in Modern. Phoenix does not care either, since they want to resolve a boatload of spells instead of one specific one (par TiTi and Ascension).
So, from a holistic point, Counterspell would have a way higher impact, while also boosting fundamental fair decks. FoW has the downside, that it can be played in different combo decks.
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I disagree with them on Counterspell, but I like them exploring cards that are actually worth discussing (compared to that CFB article a while ago discussing why Sneak Attack would be bad for Modern - no *****). FoW is definitely the most controversial inclusion in the Horizons discussion and although I don't see it happen I also don't think FoW would be so bad for Modern.
Sigh... For real? I just have no faith in their analysis if they're concerned about getting Lava Spike countered for UU compared to allowing control to tap out and still be "safe".
On a totally separate note.
What is your take on FoW?
Personally, I think it's sort of silly to need a T0 counter in a T4 format. I also think it's sort of silly to need a free counter before we even attempt a 2cmc one. I can get the difference between using FoW vs fair and unfair decks; I've borrowed probably just under enough legacy decks to really grasp the concept fully, but I think I can grapple with it a bit.
I disagree with them on Counterspell, but I like them exploring cards that are actually worth discussing (compared to that CFB article a while ago discussing why Sneak Attack would be bad for Modern - no *****). FoW is definitely the most controversial inclusion in the Horizons discussion and although I don't see it happen I also don't think FoW would be so bad for Modern.
Sigh... For real? I just have no faith in their analysis if they're concerned about getting Lava Spike countered for UU compared to allowing control to tap out and still be "safe".
On a totally separate note.
What is your take on FoW?
Personally, I think it's sort of silly to need a T0 counter in a T4 format. I also think it's sort of silly to need a free counter before we even attempt a 2cmc one. I can get the difference between using FoW vs fair and unfair decks; I've borrowed probably just under enough legacy decks to really grasp the concept fully, but I think I can grapple with it a bit.
I have no issue with FoW-like cards, but would prefer alternate FoW designs to preserve some Modern and Legacy differences. Mix and match examples of FoW alternatives include:
-FoW for non-creature spells only. This gives Modern's least broken permanent type a leg up over the truly broken stuff.
-FoW where the alternate cost can only be paid in the first 1-3 turns, like a reverse Serra Avenger. This lets us respond to the broken early plays while not creating truly dominant late game states for Ux strategies.
-FoW Mana Leak instead of FoW hard counter. In many ways, this acts like the Avenger design with different functionality in the late game.
FoW itself is probably fine, but adjustments like these might make it more Modern appropriate. I know Ux control has a stigma as being pretty bad or overhyped, but if these existing, viable decks had consistent access to a powerful FoW tempo play, they could become really dominant. Adjustments like I proposed would assist Ux strategies and police broken stuff, while not also pushing too many other decks out. I would also hope other fair strategies get comparable tools so blue doesn't become a virtually automatic best choice for those preferring interactive decks.
I disagree with them on Counterspell, but I like them exploring cards that are actually worth discussing (compared to that CFB article a while ago discussing why Sneak Attack would be bad for Modern - no *****). FoW is definitely the most controversial inclusion in the Horizons discussion and although I don't see it happen I also don't think FoW would be so bad for Modern.
Sigh... For real? I just have no faith in their analysis if they're concerned about getting Lava Spike countered for UU compared to allowing control to tap out and still be "safe".
On a totally separate note.
What is your take on FoW?
Personally, I think it's sort of silly to need a T0 counter in a T4 format. I also think it's sort of silly to need a free counter before we even attempt a 2cmc one. I can get the difference between using FoW vs fair and unfair decks; I've borrowed probably just under enough legacy decks to really grasp the concept fully, but I think I can grapple with it a bit.
On Counterspell, I do kind of see their point; there is an argument to make that the current hotchpotch of counterspells UWx runs is a good thing; noone is going to run 1 Mana Leak 1 Remand 1 Logic Knot anymore when they could just play 3 Counterspell. On the other hand, as someone who has written down a LOT of UWx lists in notepad over the years, I do not think this variety of counterspells demands much from the creativity of the deck designer more than it demands from their patience. You're just spending a lot of thought on a mixture of spells that over the course of a 100 games might just as well be Counterspell and I feel we can cut out the middleman.
Regarding Force of Will, I think Modern would benefit from it. Although many of the combo decks in Modern don't even really care for being FoW'd it would promote interaction and stop some of the sub-t4 nonsense, and I have always loved FoW from a gameplay perspective. I do agree with ktkenshinx that FoW would have to come with some interactive support for the other colors, and not making blue the default color for anything fair.
As for a FoW-light, I am worried what such a card would do to Legacy. In Modern, a "Mana Leak FoW" or "Reverse Serra Angel FoW" will just be Force of Will in the matchup where you want a FoW, and versus the matchups where the clause matters, you'd be siding out real FoW to begin with most of the time.
Considering that an enormous amount of the cards on the banned list are fast mana, free mana, things that cheat on mana, or literally other rituals, I think Cabal Ritual will never see the light of day in Modern.
Ktk's thoughts were interesting. I'm much more okay with something like Daze, so a Daze that can be cast T0 is probably(?) fine for me. I suppose I'm just afraid of what FoW would signal is okay to be in the format, but I don't think Daze is strong enough to send that same signal. I struggle with trying to group evaluate hypothetical cards though, it's such a sliding scale.
Maybe I am overthinking FoW... Maybe not. At this point we're so close to spoilers that it's almost fruitless to have a back and forth about it because we might as well just wait a few days and see what they give us.
I just doubt they give us both FoW and Counterspell in the same set.
While i can eventually see FOW, I don't seen it out of the gate. This is the first set and we have 3 very real contenders as the blue counter chase cards that can all shake things up.
If counterspell is at a lower rarity I could see them squeezing in daze and counterspell during initial release. I think releasing too many will make limited unfun and they'll release too much at once without being able to capitalize on the new stuff fully.
Also, with cards like counterspell, it's not going to move very many packs. It is a pretty heavily reprinted common...even with a rarity upshift (or two) I still don't think it'll generate sales.
I'm guessing daze as the BAB and counterspell in set at rare. Maybe foil at common but then you can't really have much of a multicolor presence for draft if you're pushing cards that require that kind of commitment to a specific color palette.
Ktk's thoughts were interesting. I'm much more okay with something like Daze, so a Daze that can be cast T0 is probably(?) fine for me. I suppose I'm just afraid of what FoW would signal is okay to be in the format, but I don't think Daze is strong enough to send that same signal. I struggle with trying to group evaluate hypothetical cards though, it's such a sliding scale.
Maybe I am overthinking FoW... Maybe not. At this point we're so close to spoilers that it's almost fruitless to have a back and forth about it because we might as well just wait a few days and see what they give us.
I just doubt they give us both FoW and Counterspell in the same set.
Yeah I don't see FoW happen either. I'm like 95% on counterspell being in, 5% on FoW being in and 50% on Daze being in.
Daze definitely is the most interesting one regarding what it would do to the format. I don't see control playing it, GDS probably would. Would Phoenix?
I do not believe that they will go all in on counters in the first set. The moment we have counterspell in the set, they riun all their possibilities to include weaker counters into future sets. While I believe that we will see Counterspell at one point in the future. I do not believe that this is gonna happen straight away. I think we will only see it when they are out of designspace for 2CMC counters.
For the Force of will discussion, I just don't see a deck which really needs a free Counterspell to be kept in check. Therefore I do not think that we will see something like this. And if we see something, then something way worse like Foil or maybe a new design. And if a deck that wins regularly on T1 emerges i rather see it hit by the banhammer than having FoW. Because a deck like this would push too many other decks out of the format.
Flusterstorm is the new BAB promo (with new art), and a new/fixed version of Astral Slide:
Astral Drift 2W Enchantment Whenever you cycle Astral Drift or cycle another card while Astral Drift is on the battlefield, you may exile target creature. Return that creature to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step. Cycling 2W
Flusterstorm is the new BAB promo (with new art), and a new/fixed version of Astral Slide:
Astral Drift 2W Enchantment Whenever you cycle Astral Drift or cycle another card while Astral Drift is on the battlefield, you may exile target creature. Return that creature to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step. Cycling 2W
Not impressed honestly. I mean storm not really an issue. We need broad counters not specific counters.
Flusterstorm, as the BAB status suggests, is probably not just targeted at Modern players. It's a chase card that will have mass eternal format appeal and is likely included to drive down the price and incentivize other format specialists to buy the product. It's also the best possible reprint outlet. Good Modern safety valve, but probably not super Modern relevant right now. I'm still optimistic for other countermagic options.
Drift is sweet. We'll need more cycling support to make Drift decks viable, because Drift is dead in a lot of high-profile matches, but it's a great inclusion with strong brewing potential. Net positive for Modern overall.
At the same time, they brought out a video about the top 5 cards NOT to include in Horizons, with #1 being Counterspell
I disagree with them on Counterspell, but I like them exploring cards that are actually worth discussing (compared to that CFB article a while ago discussing why Sneak Attack would be bad for Modern - no *****). FoW is definitely the most controversial inclusion in the Horizons discussion and although I don't see it happen I also don't think FoW would be so bad for Modern.
I'm particularly curious if Cabal Ritual can make a splash into some existing combo decks.
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Regarding FoW: The biggest problem is: There are little to none real combo decks out there. There is no classic A+B deck but Ad Nauseam (which has had never problems with counters due to how the deck works) and Griselbanned. And lets be real, both are in reality neglectable in Modern context, since the given metagame share is close to irrelevant.
FoW is really meh against Dredge or Tron, the other "boogeymans" in Modern. Phoenix does not care either, since they want to resolve a boatload of spells instead of one specific one (par TiTi and Ascension).
So, from a holistic point, Counterspell would have a way higher impact, while also boosting fundamental fair decks. FoW has the downside, that it can be played in different combo decks.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
On a totally separate note.
What is your take on FoW?
Personally, I think it's sort of silly to need a T0 counter in a T4 format. I also think it's sort of silly to need a free counter before we even attempt a 2cmc one. I can get the difference between using FoW vs fair and unfair decks; I've borrowed probably just under enough legacy decks to really grasp the concept fully, but I think I can grapple with it a bit.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I have no issue with FoW-like cards, but would prefer alternate FoW designs to preserve some Modern and Legacy differences. Mix and match examples of FoW alternatives include:
-FoW for non-creature spells only. This gives Modern's least broken permanent type a leg up over the truly broken stuff.
-FoW where the alternate cost can only be paid in the first 1-3 turns, like a reverse Serra Avenger. This lets us respond to the broken early plays while not creating truly dominant late game states for Ux strategies.
-FoW Mana Leak instead of FoW hard counter. In many ways, this acts like the Avenger design with different functionality in the late game.
FoW itself is probably fine, but adjustments like these might make it more Modern appropriate. I know Ux control has a stigma as being pretty bad or overhyped, but if these existing, viable decks had consistent access to a powerful FoW tempo play, they could become really dominant. Adjustments like I proposed would assist Ux strategies and police broken stuff, while not also pushing too many other decks out. I would also hope other fair strategies get comparable tools so blue doesn't become a virtually automatic best choice for those preferring interactive decks.
I just hope they do not reissue the fow because I just sold the set
On Counterspell, I do kind of see their point; there is an argument to make that the current hotchpotch of counterspells UWx runs is a good thing; noone is going to run 1 Mana Leak 1 Remand 1 Logic Knot anymore when they could just play 3 Counterspell. On the other hand, as someone who has written down a LOT of UWx lists in notepad over the years, I do not think this variety of counterspells demands much from the creativity of the deck designer more than it demands from their patience. You're just spending a lot of thought on a mixture of spells that over the course of a 100 games might just as well be Counterspell and I feel we can cut out the middleman.
Regarding Force of Will, I think Modern would benefit from it. Although many of the combo decks in Modern don't even really care for being FoW'd it would promote interaction and stop some of the sub-t4 nonsense, and I have always loved FoW from a gameplay perspective. I do agree with ktkenshinx that FoW would have to come with some interactive support for the other colors, and not making blue the default color for anything fair.
As for a FoW-light, I am worried what such a card would do to Legacy. In Modern, a "Mana Leak FoW" or "Reverse Serra Angel FoW" will just be Force of Will in the matchup where you want a FoW, and versus the matchups where the clause matters, you'd be siding out real FoW to begin with most of the time.
They were not taking about Cabal Therapy but Cabal Ritual
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Maybe I am overthinking FoW... Maybe not. At this point we're so close to spoilers that it's almost fruitless to have a back and forth about it because we might as well just wait a few days and see what they give us.
I just doubt they give us both FoW and Counterspell in the same set.
"Reveal a Dragon"
I see them printing:
counterspell
daze
And then a FOW variant, maybe even foil
If counterspell is at a lower rarity I could see them squeezing in daze and counterspell during initial release. I think releasing too many will make limited unfun and they'll release too much at once without being able to capitalize on the new stuff fully.
Also, with cards like counterspell, it's not going to move very many packs. It is a pretty heavily reprinted common...even with a rarity upshift (or two) I still don't think it'll generate sales.
I'm guessing daze as the BAB and counterspell in set at rare. Maybe foil at common but then you can't really have much of a multicolor presence for draft if you're pushing cards that require that kind of commitment to a specific color palette.
Fast mana for Black...yeah no.
Yeah I don't see FoW happen either. I'm like 95% on counterspell being in, 5% on FoW being in and 50% on Daze being in.
Daze definitely is the most interesting one regarding what it would do to the format. I don't see control playing it, GDS probably would. Would Phoenix?
For the Force of will discussion, I just don't see a deck which really needs a free Counterspell to be kept in check. Therefore I do not think that we will see something like this. And if we see something, then something way worse like Foil or maybe a new design. And if a deck that wins regularly on T1 emerges i rather see it hit by the banhammer than having FoW. Because a deck like this would push too many other decks out of the format.
Astral Drift 2W Enchantment Whenever you cycle Astral Drift or cycle another card while Astral Drift is on the battlefield, you may exile target creature. Return that creature to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step. Cycling 2W
Wish it was "noncreature" instead of just instant or sorcery, but neat nevertheless.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I guess since it's the Buy-a-Box promo.
Spirits
Flusterstorm, as the BAB status suggests, is probably not just targeted at Modern players. It's a chase card that will have mass eternal format appeal and is likely included to drive down the price and incentivize other format specialists to buy the product. It's also the best possible reprint outlet. Good Modern safety valve, but probably not super Modern relevant right now. I'm still optimistic for other countermagic options.
Drift is sweet. We'll need more cycling support to make Drift decks viable, because Drift is dead in a lot of high-profile matches, but it's a great inclusion with strong brewing potential. Net positive for Modern overall.