I think karakas would be fine. The only deck it'll really heavily impact is grishoalbrand imo. So many other creature strats just don't care about it. I get there is minimal deck building cost to the first one really, like pendelhaven, but more than 2 seems like you'd be stretching it.
I don't think you'd need a fixed version of it and I don't think it'll be all that useful to the format. Unless they print some busted in half legendary creature that lets you abuse it.
It could get annoying with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Aether Vial, but I think Karakas is exactly the type of card that would help fair strategies without helping unfair ones. There's a lot of cards like this - it just depends on what Wizards wants and there is a balance of not just letting every fair card from Legacy into Modern.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
So since we're on answers in the other thread I'd love an opinion on the playability of hero's downfall but with the addition of surgical extraction effect (at an additional cost of either life or mana) on whatever creature/planeswalker is targeted?
Eradicate would probably see some fringe play right now if it could hit Gurmag and Shadow. Remove that clause and add walker and it's probably playable at sorcery speed for 2BB.
I think karakas would be fine. The only deck it'll really heavily impact is grishoalbrand imo. So many other creature strats just don't care about it. I get there is minimal deck building cost to the first one really, like pendelhaven, but more than 2 seems like you'd be stretching it.
I don't think you'd need a fixed version of it and I don't think it'll be all that useful to the format. Unless they print some busted in half legendary creature that lets you abuse it.
Apparently one of the more broken interactions, Karakas + Vendilion Clique, already doesn't see that much play in Legacy.
What Karakas has done more to Legacy is make Gurmag Angler the primary Delve fatty and Tasigur, the Golden Fang see practically no play. While Modern has already been going in that direction because 5/5's are sweeter than 4/5's, a mere land that prevents Tasigur but not Gurmag from ever connecting is a pretty big pressure (a pressure I have personally experienced from trying Legacy decks, too).
Karakas tends to traditionally be a hoser of unfair decks in Legacy, though--it keeps bouncing cheated-in legends such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselbrand. It's arguably one of the pressures that pushed Legacy onto Griselbrand instead of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (the other is Show and Tell decks). It's quite possible that Karakas can do a similar job in Modern, preventing Goryo's Vengeance decks from becoming too popular.
I think karakas would be fine. The only deck it'll really heavily impact is grishoalbrand imo. So many other creature strats just don't care about it. I get there is minimal deck building cost to the first one really, like pendelhaven, but more than 2 seems like you'd be stretching it.
I don't think you'd need a fixed version of it and I don't think it'll be all that useful to the format. Unless they print some busted in half legendary creature that lets you abuse it.
Apparently one of the more broken interactions, Karakas + Vendilion Clique, already doesn't see that much play in Legacy.
What Karakas has done more to Legacy is make Gurmag Angler the primary Delve fatty and Tasigur, the Golden Fang see practically no play. While Modern has already been going in that direction because 5/5's are sweeter than 4/5's, a mere land that prevents Tasigur but not Gurmag from ever connecting is a pretty big pressure (a pressure I have personally experienced from trying Legacy decks, too).
Karakas tends to traditionally be a hoser of unfair decks in Legacy, though--it keeps bouncing cheated-in legends such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselbrand. It's arguably one of the pressures that pushed Legacy onto Griselbrand instead of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (the other is Show and Tell decks). It's quite possible that Karakas can do a similar job in Modern, preventing Goryo's Vengeance decks from becoming too popular.
Karakas is really just for Emrakul and Griselbrand for Sneak/Show and Reanimator strategies and Marit Lage (Dark Depths) from Lands and Turbo Depths, which sees a lot of play in Legacy right now. In fact I'd say Marit Lage is probably seen more than Emrakul in Legacy right now.
I agree Karakas would be fine, I just had trouble finding a "white" card widely played in Legacy that couldn't see a reprint under its OG form.
Let's note that the combo with Venser, Shaper Savant and Clique has seen play in Miracles and it was the best version piloted by the best Miracles player before Top was banned. I'm curious how annoying it would be in Modern.
I also believe the Play Design Team may choose to put those iconic cards / effects on creatures just because it's either unexpected, funner, more practical in limited, or other reasons.... Their thought process may have been "1- What can we reprint ? 2- Then, do we reprint the card in its OG form ? 3- Let's test the different takes on that card in Limited / Modern, then decide".
About the "strong" cards being reprinted, I'm testing Shardless Agent and, oh boy, that would be a great card to have. It would open variants to already existing decks without breaking any of them, apparently.
I can also see a world where Looting would be replaced by Careful Study, so UR Phoenix would switch the cards, Dredge would either choose Neonate or a more committed blue splash, Mardu Pyro turn into Esper Mentor (with the help of Counterspell), and on top of it Vindicate could feed Tokens, Aristocrats and Abzan, because , well they suck right now.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I have a hard time understanding how 3 mana removal is in any way relevant or playable in Modern.
It's an 1 mana remove ANY permanent. 3 mana "stone rain"s are still relevant (e.g. Fulminator Mage). Vindicate is a 3 mana catch all, a MB answer to Tron, artifacts, enchanments etc.
Now, I am not saying it's too powerful for Modern, I actually think it would be fine. But it would DEFINITELY be relevant. There is no way it would not see play, especially if the format remains so open wide to any and all permanents.
I could see Nimble Mongoose brought in to shake things up. I don't know how much play it would see but I'd bet a great reaction from the community just for the past flavor and love of the history of the card.
I'd like to see a card printed in horizons that gives green blue an edge, not sure what though. I love the blue green threshold decks of old
EDIT
An Astral Slide + Drake Haven deck would be awesome! With a reprint of Secluded Steppe and the like. Snapcaster Mage, Restoration Angel... I love it already
I don't think UR Phoenix will replace Faithless Looting with Careful Study unless Looting is banned or Force of Will is made Modern-legal (for the record, I think a Looting ban is more likely). Looting's Flashback is still too good to normally pass up.
I could see Nimble Mongoose brought in to shake things up. I don't know how much play it would see but I'd bet a great reaction from the community just for the past flavor and love of the history of the card.
I'd like to see a card printed in horizons that gives green blue an edge, not sure what though. I love the blue green threshold decks of old
EDIT
An Astral Slide + Drake Haven deck would be awesome! With a reprint of Secluded Steppe and the like. Snapcaster Mage, Restoration Angel... I love it already
Agreed on both of this. Not just Nimble Mongoose, I think they should also bring back the others like werebear and krosan beast!
Astral Slide coming back would be cool too.
_________________
As for other cards, I'm also hoping they reprint Exalted Angel.
I would love to see more land destruction enter modern. People don't seem to understand how difficult it is to run a dedicated land destruction deck. So I hear a lot of complainers and moaners who don't understand how a complex game works. I even support combo as a strategy and I hate playing against combo. Even if you play arbor elf and speed up your land destruction to turn 2. Your opponent can duress, mana leak, tax you Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, kill your elf lightning bolt, or out muscle you wild nacatl / tarmogoyf. Land destruction is a narrow strategy that requires a lot of cards that don't win you the game. Usually 8x to 10x mana creatures, and 12x land destruction spells. If you play a completely non-interactive deck then yeah. You will probably lose to land destruction, but that's the point of a broad meta. I'm sure there a plenty of people that would like mill to be better.
Land destruction as a deck type is not the strongest strategy yet it would be another option in the field of modern if it had better tools to use. There are so many different archtypes out there that could be slowed down but not outright be stopped by LD based strategies. It would be interesting to see if WOTC actually helps LD strategies.
I would prefer not to see any straight up land denial printed. Something like Ghost Quarter is fine because it is an inferior land that you get, but you are not down a land. Prison decks like some of these might enable are absolutely miserable to play against. More than that, if you are up against such a miserable deck, the best answer it to go faster. I think in creating a prison deck that would probably do really well against control and Tron, probably midrange, that might just increase format speed
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Land destruction has only a tiny minority of aficionados. It leads to frustrating games. I don't see Wizards promote and push that kind of stuff in Modern. Players would scream "why did you feel the need to put Ice Storm in the set over [name a popular card] ???".
You can hope for one staple card, but it's probably not on top of the list of things they planned to put in this set, and they can't put everything. Vindicate would already be a generous move, and at least it belongs to a narrow variety of decks that would love to destroy a Tron land from time to time, without ruining the fun of the other MUs. Terravore would be great.
I'm curious about those cards that have a devastating effect on the game. The more I think about this set, the more I realize the million possibilities they had to consider !
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Land destruction may not be a huge following and when we look at LD its not even very good but having some decent MD answers for LD not just as a deck but maybe even sideboard options for those pesky lands matter decks like Tron or Valakut. Just suggestions. Prison style decks have their place as does aggro or combo and stuff. As of right now what we see as the fastest decks can hopefully be slowed a turn or two with decent LD effects.
I've just watched the wotc stream and they said something I think people didn't pay enough attention to: they said cabal therapist is in the top10 higher power level of the set.
And therapist as we all know is not very good to say the least. Serra is obviously way worse.
So don't expect this set to dramatically change the format, as they ALSO say in the stream.
Having said that, what will be the buy a box promo? People say they said it's a blue card (can anyone put the link to that info?).
After thinking about it for a bit, I retract myself about force of will not being in the set, and I think it will indeed be force of will.
Why? Because I don't think it would change the format much. Fow in modern would be way less impactful than in legacy, mainly because while fow is the police card of legacy, modern already has one, called the allmighty ban list. I don't think fow will have a big impact, at least not right now, maybe in the future it will, as some broken stuff gets printed and instead of getting banned the format becomes more and more dependant on fow.
And the other big reason I think it will be fow is wizard's cash grab policy, they love money and selling boxes.
Land destruction has only a tiny minority of aficionados. It leads to frustrating games. I don't see Wizards promote and push that kind of stuff in Modern. Players would scream "why did you feel the need to put Ice Storm in the set over [name a popular card] ???".
You can hope for one staple card, but it's probably not on top of the list of things they planned to put in this set, and they can't put everything. Vindicate would already be a generous move, and at least it belongs to a narrow variety of decks that would love to destroy a Tron land from time to time, without ruining the fun of the other MUs. Terravore would be great.
I'm curious about those cards that have a devastating effect on the game. The more I think about this set, the more I realize the million possibilities they had to consider !
Yeah, I know what you mean. WoTC dislikes LD spells at 3 cmc, only small chance for Pillage. I'm a RG Ponza player, and sometimes people rage quit or just.. quit. Well, but Ponza is a weak deck right now so I switched over to Mardu Pyro.. a deck which has better chance in our lgs meta.
Glad to know some people also like the Terravore, it's the only one in the oddysey lhurgoyf cyle that is not yet modern legal... so I think there's a small chance they would reprint it this time. Come on wotc, do it.
I do think we'll also see something that rivals Tarmogoyf as a 2 drop creature that can start off large and get larger if certain conditions are met that require some build around... This is my best guess:
Domainogoyf1G (M)
Trample Domain-- ~ gets +1/+1 for each basic land type amongst lands you control.
1/1
This would force a deck to be 3-5 colors, but potentially a large payoff on turn 2 or 3. That creature is meant to just be an example, although I think it would be a fair card.
I do think we'll also see something that rivals Tarmogoyf as a 2 drop creature that can start off large and get larger if certain conditions are met that require some build around... This is my best guess:
Domainogoyf1G (M)
Trample Domain-- ~ gets +1/+1 for each basic land type amongst lands you control.
1/1
This would force a deck to be 3-5 colors, but potentially a large payoff on turn 2 or 3. That creature is meant to just be an example, although I think it would be a fair card.
I think it should be */* so you won't be able to play if off of non-fetchable lands, or */1* like Tarmo, so it still has no impact if you play it without fetching.
It could get annoying with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Aether Vial, but I think Karakas is exactly the type of card that would help fair strategies without helping unfair ones. There's a lot of cards like this - it just depends on what Wizards wants and there is a balance of not just letting every fair card from Legacy into Modern.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Spirits
"Reveal a Dragon"
Apparently one of the more broken interactions, Karakas + Vendilion Clique, already doesn't see that much play in Legacy.
What Karakas has done more to Legacy is make Gurmag Angler the primary Delve fatty and Tasigur, the Golden Fang see practically no play. While Modern has already been going in that direction because 5/5's are sweeter than 4/5's, a mere land that prevents Tasigur but not Gurmag from ever connecting is a pretty big pressure (a pressure I have personally experienced from trying Legacy decks, too).
Karakas tends to traditionally be a hoser of unfair decks in Legacy, though--it keeps bouncing cheated-in legends such as Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Griselbrand. It's arguably one of the pressures that pushed Legacy onto Griselbrand instead of Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (the other is Show and Tell decks). It's quite possible that Karakas can do a similar job in Modern, preventing Goryo's Vengeance decks from becoming too popular.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Let's note that the combo with Venser, Shaper Savant and Clique has seen play in Miracles and it was the best version piloted by the best Miracles player before Top was banned. I'm curious how annoying it would be in Modern.
I also believe the Play Design Team may choose to put those iconic cards / effects on creatures just because it's either unexpected, funner, more practical in limited, or other reasons.... Their thought process may have been "1- What can we reprint ? 2- Then, do we reprint the card in its OG form ? 3- Let's test the different takes on that card in Limited / Modern, then decide".
About the "strong" cards being reprinted, I'm testing Shardless Agent and, oh boy, that would be a great card to have. It would open variants to already existing decks without breaking any of them, apparently.
I can also see a world where Looting would be replaced by Careful Study, so UR Phoenix would switch the cards, Dredge would either choose Neonate or a more committed blue splash, Mardu Pyro turn into Esper Mentor (with the help of Counterspell), and on top of it Vindicate could feed Tokens, Aristocrats and Abzan, because , well they suck right now.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Vindicate is safe no doubt. But 3 mana even for a removal that kills anything is too much.
If you pay three it needs to kill more then one thing.
I like the idea of banning looting and replacing it with careful study.
Now, I am not saying it's too powerful for Modern, I actually think it would be fine. But it would DEFINITELY be relevant. There is no way it would not see play, especially if the format remains so open wide to any and all permanents.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I'd like to see a card printed in horizons that gives green blue an edge, not sure what though. I love the blue green threshold decks of old
EDIT
An Astral Slide + Drake Haven deck would be awesome! With a reprint of Secluded Steppe and the like. Snapcaster Mage, Restoration Angel... I love it already
Draft My Cube!
Agreed on both of this. Not just Nimble Mongoose, I think they should also bring back the others like werebear and krosan beast!
Astral Slide coming back would be cool too.
_________________
As for other cards, I'm also hoping they reprint Exalted Angel.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Land destruction as a deck type is not the strongest strategy yet it would be another option in the field of modern if it had better tools to use. There are so many different archtypes out there that could be slowed down but not outright be stopped by LD based strategies. It would be interesting to see if WOTC actually helps LD strategies.
Have been waiting for Pillage for a long time.
Also hoping they also reprint Terravore.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
You can hope for one staple card, but it's probably not on top of the list of things they planned to put in this set, and they can't put everything.
Vindicate would already be a generous move, and at least it belongs to a narrow variety of decks that would love to destroy a Tron land from time to time, without ruining the fun of the other MUs.
Terravore would be great.
I'm curious about those cards that have a devastating effect on the game. The more I think about this set, the more I realize the million possibilities they had to consider !
Land destruction may not be a huge following and when we look at LD its not even very good but having some decent MD answers for LD not just as a deck but maybe even sideboard options for those pesky lands matter decks like Tron or Valakut. Just suggestions. Prison style decks have their place as does aggro or combo and stuff. As of right now what we see as the fastest decks can hopefully be slowed a turn or two with decent LD effects.
And therapist as we all know is not very good to say the least. Serra is obviously way worse.
So don't expect this set to dramatically change the format, as they ALSO say in the stream.
Having said that, what will be the buy a box promo? People say they said it's a blue card (can anyone put the link to that info?).
After thinking about it for a bit, I retract myself about force of will not being in the set, and I think it will indeed be force of will.
Why? Because I don't think it would change the format much. Fow in modern would be way less impactful than in legacy, mainly because while fow is the police card of legacy, modern already has one, called the allmighty ban list. I don't think fow will have a big impact, at least not right now, maybe in the future it will, as some broken stuff gets printed and instead of getting banned the format becomes more and more dependant on fow.
And the other big reason I think it will be fow is wizard's cash grab policy, they love money and selling boxes.
Yeah, I know what you mean. WoTC dislikes LD spells at 3 cmc, only small chance for Pillage. I'm a RG Ponza player, and sometimes people rage quit or just.. quit. Well, but Ponza is a weak deck right now so I switched over to Mardu Pyro.. a deck which has better chance in our lgs meta.
Glad to know some people also like the Terravore, it's the only one in the oddysey lhurgoyf cyle that is not yet modern legal... so I think there's a small chance they would reprint it this time. Come on wotc, do it.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Domainogoyf 1G (M)
Trample
Domain-- ~ gets +1/+1 for each basic land type amongst lands you control.
1/1
This would force a deck to be 3-5 colors, but potentially a large payoff on turn 2 or 3. That creature is meant to just be an example, although I think it would be a fair card.
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past