Force of Rage is very disappointing. A Pyrokinesis version would have been so much more valuable. I don't understand why UBG got obvious policing/answer cards and RW got weird stuff. I'm curious to see the design decisions there.
Counterspell exclusion is unsurprising (I thought it was a goner the second we saw FoN and Prohibit in the same set), but the rationale is particularly disappointing. Forcing players to use mediocre effects in place of a good one does not make those mediocre effects better. If Wizards banned Bolt tomorrow, URx decks and Jund wouldn't suddenly switch to Lighting Strike. They'd just be ****ed on that slot. Same thing if they banned Thougthseize; Thought Erasure/Duress/Despise don't suddenly become replacements. It's also puzzling because Modern Ux decks don't really use that many counterspells. It's Cryptic Command at 4 CMC, Logic Knot at 2, and a smattering of Leak/Veto/Stroke also at 2 for most decks.
I'm still optimistic. There are still enough slots left in the set that we can hit gold. Cards that could be hits would be the throwback for Swords, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Stifle, and/or Daze. I expect we'll see most of these, if not all. We already have references, at varying power levels, to FoW, Ponder, Preordain, Mom, Flusterstorm (actual reprint), Cabal Therapy, Jitte, Strix, a Mox, Sneak Attack, and fetchlands. It just takes one of these other throwbacks to make a huge format impact.
Oh yeah that justification was simply awful. Also it messes with the color pie if Blue is not allowed to have good counterspells and White cannot have good answers cause what it invalidates bad cards? Funny cause it seems Green and Black are always expanding their Color Pie while getting basically exclusive access to discard and ramp.
PRecisely because we have logic knot that they must have included counterspell. It makes no sense!!
I am sorry to crush your dreams, but Counterspell got officially disconfirmed in the current Weekly MTG stream. But as stated previously hoping for Counterspell was naive anyways.
With putting the real Counterspell into the first straight to modern set, they would have just killed a ton of designspace, as they would make all other 2CMC counters obsolete at an instant. Thereby limiting their options for future sets.
Not really. There's a lot you can do with UU that are vast upgrades over Counterspell itself. Counter target spell, draw a card. Counter target spell, exile all copies. Counter target spell, Orim's Chant. Counter target spell, Shadow of Doubt. Mana Drain.
R&D is just run by filthy casuals who regard the height of Magic as turning creatures sideways after drafting them. Constructed decks where instants and sorceries are king are the devil in their world, because being told no and going from 20 to 0 in a turn isn't "fair". But what else can you expect from mouth-breathing knuckle draggers?
I'm really trying to be optimistic here but I can't lie to myself about being disappointed. When the set first got announced I thought it would be a good mix between old cards and new cards... then you find out it's only 15% reprints. I tried to stay positive, but with every reprint it just made me hurt even more. Professionals and casuals made lists of cards they wanted in Modern but now they're lucky if one of those made it into the set. As of now, there is no counterspell, containment priest, wirewood symbiote, quirion ranger, vindicate. It feels like the day I watched the Last Jedi -- I just feel hollow.
It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.
R&D is just run by filthy casuals who regard the height of Magic as turning creatures sideways after drafting them. Constructed decks where instants and sorceries are king are the devil in their world, because being told no and going from 20 to 0 in a turn isn't "fair". But what else can you expect from mouth-breathing knuckle draggers?
We get, after 75 cards spoiled, 4 new counterspells to Modern (one specifically to stop creatures), Fact or Fiction, Cabal Therapist, Urza, Crypt Rats (which stops creatures), Aria of Flame, Planebound Accomplice, Spore Frog (which stops combat damage), Collected Conjuring, Altar of Dementia, Mox Tantalite. These are not cards that promote turning creatures sideways. These are not cards that say R&D is afraid of permission based Magic. But because we aren't getting counterspell, Wizards are quite literally the devil and should be shunned forever...
Yes, they didn't give us Counterspell and I am disappointed in that as well. I don't feel it is too powerful for the format but the omission from this set doesn't say anything other than they decided to give us others first. As much as we are "sure" that Counterspell will not break anything, it isn't like Blue is in this terrible position where only Counterspell can make it great again.
Your indictment of their decision making process is incredibly tone deaf considering what we have gotten recently, both in this set and previous sets, when it comes to Blue permission based decks. Teferi is not an aggro card; Search for Azcanta is not an aggro card, Jace is not an aggro card. The fact that we have these cards suggests you have no idea what you are talking about and putting yourself in this position of "WotC hates anything but creatures" simply because we aren't getting Counterspell is incredibly inane.
I'm really trying to be optimistic here but I can't lie to myself about being disappointed. When the set first got announced I thought it would be a good mix between old cards and new cards... then you find out it's only 15% reprints. I tried to stay positive, but with every reprint it just made me hurt even more. Professionals and casuals made lists of cards they wanted in Modern but now they're lucky if one of those made it into the set. As of now, there is no counterspell, containment priest, wirewood symbiote, quirion ranger, vindicate. It feels like the day I watched the Last Jedi -- I just feel hollow.
It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.
Containment Priest, Wirewood Symbiote, and Vindicate haven't been crunched out of the set yet. Despite counterspell not being in the set when I was pretty certain it would be, I'm happy with a lot of the cards so far and am really just hoping to see a few more specific cards reprinted like Goblin Ringleader. I'm taking the new cards as a bonus because I have been surprised by most of the new cards.
I'm really trying to be optimistic here but I can't lie to myself about being disappointed. When the set first got announced I thought it would be a good mix between old cards and new cards... then you find out it's only 15% reprints. I tried to stay positive, but with every reprint it just made me hurt even more. Professionals and casuals made lists of cards they wanted in Modern but now they're lucky if one of those made it into the set. As of now, there is no counterspell, containment priest, wirewood symbiote, quirion ranger, vindicate. It feels like the day I watched the Last Jedi -- I just feel hollow.
It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.
yeah the bolded part is really what i find bothering.
i mean i get that we as onlookers would be predisposed to focus on reprints when theorycrafting what the set might look like or contain (ie its much harder to envision cards that dont exist). however i still expected more influential, or at least iconic reprints, to be mixed in. plenty of cards yet to be spoiled, but what has been shown so far is considerably...different than what i was expecting. like where are the cards such as vindicate, deed, wild growth, fire/ice, sterling grove, quirion ranger, etc (would have included counterspell in that list)?
i do think some of the newly designed cards, and even the remakes are powerful enough to see play thus impacting the format somewhat. its just off-putting to not see the reprint inclusions that i think many would have rated as clear winners (without being absurdly warping).
lets just say ill be less than pleased if it ends up where most/all of those cards dont show up and instead we get a meme bear tribal and ninja support. not to say that stuff shouldnt exist, rather that there is a time and a place for those things. the FIRST AND ONLY product that can bypass standard into modern might be better served with you know...getting relevant cards into the modern format.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm really trying to be optimistic here but I can't lie to myself about being disappointed. When the set first got announced I thought it would be a good mix between old cards and new cards... then you find out it's only 15% reprints. I tried to stay positive, but with every reprint it just made me hurt even more. Professionals and casuals made lists of cards they wanted in Modern but now they're lucky if one of those made it into the set. As of now, there is no counterspell, containment priest, wirewood symbiote, quirion ranger, vindicate. It feels like the day I watched the Last Jedi -- I just feel hollow.
It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.
yeah the bolded part is really what i find bothering.
i mean i get that we as onlookers would be predisposed to focus on reprints when theorycrafting what the set might look like or contain (ie its much harder to envision cards that dont exist). however i still expected more influential, or at least iconic reprints, to be mixed in. plenty of cards yet to be spoiled, but what has been shown so far is considerably...different than what i was expecting. like where are the cards such as vindicate, deed, wild growth, fire/ice, sterling grove, quirion ranger, etc (would have included counterspell in that list)?
i do think some of the newly designed cards, and even the remakes are powerful enough to see play thus impacting the format somewhat. its just off-putting to not see the reprint inclusions that i think many would have rated as clear winners (without being absurdly warping).
lets just say ill be less than pleased if it ends up where most/all of those cards dont show up and instead we get a meme bear tribal and ninja support. not to say that stuff shouldnt exist, rather that there is a time and a place for those things. the FIRST AND ONLY product that can bypass standard into modern might be better served with you know...getting relevant cards into the modern format.
You perfectly articulated my thoughts on the set. Being the first set to bypass standard into modern, the way it was marketed by the mothership, and the name itself made players think they would be getting a set designed to fill some gaps in the format and maybe a few cool new cards to boot. I don't want to jump the gun and crucify the set when only ~50% has been spoiled, but the back half will need to carry the first if wotc wants this set to be anything more than sweet EDH fodder plus a modern-relevant land cycle. If the remaining spoilers contain the same level of mediocrity then I'm clueless as to what R&D thought they would achieve with this project. The only explanation that makes some sort of sense to me is that maybe WotC thought they'd be killing legacy if modern were given access to staple reprints.
What makes it even more baffling is the fact that by going down the route of just 15% reprints, you make the set exponentially more difficult/expensive to produce due to increased R&D, labor, time, etc and end up taking a much larger risk as you're hoping your set of predominately brand new cards has an actual positive impact on a format with an already diverse card pool containing millions of interactions. Chalk it up to overconfidence, ignorance, or apathy; either way, it's not a good look and suggests a significant lack of understanding regarding the format as a whole. You'd think that the people who are allegedly monitoring format health would know a thing or two about the modern infrastructure and which existing cards, that they can extrapolate data from b/c they exist, could be introduced into the format to remedy things they may perceive as degenerate, balance the color pie, aid bottom tier archetypes, etc.
To reiterate my overall outlook on the set, I'm cautiously optimistic about the second half and don't want to jump the gun. However, a second half which mirrors the first would make this set a complete flop in my view or at least in terms of what it was marketed to be. Maybe R&D assumed functional variants of legacy staples would serve the same purpose as reprints, but at this point in time it looks like that kind of thinking and lack of established reprints will be the two notable failures should MH ultimately miss the mark.
I'm glad that they printed all of the Odyssey era cards in a neutered form that were not even good enough for Modern in their former form.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Tested Splicer's Skill in UW Control and UWR Control tonight. It was quite good as a win con--even a lone 3/3 mattered a couple of times, and landing 2-3 Golems often let me stabilize or put a good clock on my opponent. Splicer's Skill does compete with planeswalkers, but I often can't tap out for a walker. Sometimes, I wanted to hardcast Splicer's Skill.
Perhaps the best part of Splicer's Skill is that the token-making machine is close to impossible to interrupt once you have the mana to fuel it, unlike Young Pyromancer or Saheeli, Sublime Artificer--your opponent can't just aim spot removal at the token maker or attack it, and they can counter one Spliced instant/sorcery but they can't counter them all. Your opponent pretty much needs to targeted discard or Vendilion Clique Splicer's Skill. It is for that reason that I believe Splicer's Skill is likely to see play as an alt win con in combo sideboards.
In the meantime, Force of Negation was underrated against Gx Tron--turns out that a counterspell I can cast after desperately trying to Snapcaster Mage into Opt on 3 lands is quite good. Force of Negation still feels like it has all the unable-to-deal-with-creatures weaknesses of Negate, though, so I don't think it'll push out counterspells that can counter creatures.
Prohibit was fine. On the one hand, a cheap hard counter feels so good. On the other hand, I often couldn't counter a 3-4-mana card with it because I couldn't kick Prohibit on 2-3 lands.
Interesting which Walkers did you replace in UW and UWR to play Splicer. Cause I don't know a constant token generator seems pretty good with Walkers for protecting when you don't have a wipe or want to save spot removal. Against little Teferi they cannot counter at all and to a lesser extent big Teferi helps you get mana to keep splicing.
Now on Force of Negation I agree the main use seems to be saying nope to their Walkers.
Maybe there is no counterspell because they printed a new varian that's the same but also includes countering all the triggered on cast abilities the spell has. LOL.
Afaik Counterspell beeing in Dominaria wouldn't have changed anything. Because we still got Diabolic Edict even though there is no need anymore after they printed Lilianas Triumph.
The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.
1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.
2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.
3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.
I think the negativity comes from overhype. I don't know if Wizards played a pivotal role in this, but the community was more of the mindset "let's wait for Horizons, it will introduce cards and hopefully fix things".
I personally like what I'm seeing when I just look at the new cards individually; some safety measures, cool lands, new tools to tinker with (I'd love to attack with a Glistener Wurm) and some cards that get a reference or lore chuckle (the goat-stealing thing was great). However, up to now it feels like they designed FoN + a slightly more powerful standard set rather than something that directly addresses modern issues. Mostly, I see an effort to try and invigorate low-tier archetypes, which is commendable (and which I also like) but not exactly I believe what people had in mind.
Note: I'm saying that it feels like this, because they could have done something great that nobody knows yet - e.g. the elephant gift sounds promising.
The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.
1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.
2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.
3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.
It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.
I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.
Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.
I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.
If what we've seen so far is an indicator of the ratio of modern playable vs limited/commander cards the set will have, I will be disappointed. There were rumours floating around that this set had a lot of designs taken over from a scrapped WUBRG commander product and between the First Sliver, Sisay and Morophon I am starting to believe that.
If they didn't advertise this set as being specifically for Modern, I'd be less soured. If this was like, "Rainbow Masters" or whatever, I wouldn't groan with every obvious commanderbait card, and cute references like Ponder Mage would actually be charming instead of just draft fodder for the pile. Eyeballing it I'm at a ~25 out of 93 cards that might be interesting for modern, which is absurdly high for any other product, but disappointing after the marketing.
Modern Horizons was our birthday party and now it turns out we have to share the presents with the Commander people.
The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.
1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.
2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.
3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.
It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.
I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.
Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.
I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.
Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.
Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.
The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.
1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.
2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.
3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.
It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.
I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.
Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.
I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.
Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.
Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.
Bingo; spot on. I'll gladly rescind my salt and applaud wotc for the mind **** if the second half of spoilers is chock full of gems that actually address gaps in the format.
People have the right to be disappointed, but I can't help myself and think they're whiny children.
What is it with Counterspell seriously ? They don't have the gift they order Santa Claus, so they sulk and let everyone know on the internet ? Is it really the one card that defines whether this set is good or not ? Aren't the 4 counter spells revealed enough yet ?
Why can't those people enjoy the good stuff and deal with it ? One can enjoy :
1- what's gonna be the limited environment of MH1,
2- some playable niche cards for tier 3 decks,
3- some flashy cards for tier 1-2 decks,
4- the flavour of many cards (text, call back),
5- the Commander extra support,
6- the Pauper extra support.
There's already nearly 30 cards that are gonna see play in Modern, THIRTY. Are those people blind and only see what's good for the only one archetype they play ? Legacy staples and strong role players (Counterspell is one) willnotbe in MH1. Get. Over. It.
MH1 is not only there to fix the MUs we're not comfortable with, it's not only there to shut Phoenix, Humans or Tron down. It's also there to make a playable limited format, push bad and average decks, cautiously reprint old cards, and (re)test the water of many mechanics. This set is not a BR announcement, this set is not the merger with Legacy.
It's not healthy to read these forums when mindsets are targetted at one specific wish (the BR Announcement is sometimes as painful to read because of that). This set has already me convinced it's going to shift the Modern metagame. What bothers me most is people who complain this is a Commander set, how wrong they are imo.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Winds of Abandon is sorcery-speed Path to Exile that hits only opposing creatures for 1W with Overload for 4WW. With an upside that swings board states this much, might this be the premier PtE 5+? Or will people mainly play this as 6-mana exiling Plague Wind with downsides?
Plague Engineer is Engineered Plague on a Deathtouch 2/2, complete with the same mana cost. I have to admit that part of the appeal of Engineered Plague is its resilience against spot removal...but will Plague Engineer see play anyway? Collected Company and Traverse the Ulvenwald decks may want this card...
"Hexdrinker" is a 2/1 for G, Level Up for 1, is a 4/4 with Protection from instants at Levels 3-7, and is a 6/6 with Protection from everything at Levels 8 and up. It dies to removal but certainly strains removal suites, although LOL Teferi, Time Raveler hurts it quite a bit before Level 8. Especially with new toys that can tutor for it like Ranger-Captain of Eos, might it see play?
For hilarity's sake, King of the Pride is a 2/1 Cat lord for 2W that pumps +2/+1.
Interesting which Walkers did you replace in UW and UWR to play Splicer. Cause I don't know a constant token generator seems pretty good with Walkers for protecting when you don't have a wipe or want to save spot removal. Against little Teferi they cannot counter at all and to a lesser extent big Teferi helps you get mana to keep splicing.
Now on Force of Negation I agree the main use seems to be saying nope to their Walkers.
Turns out that I tested by ditching Secure the Wastes in UWR Control and some flex slot in UW Control (in fact, I updated my UW Control deck for War of the Spark, so the number of planeswalkers in that deck went up after sticking Splicer's Skill in). Planeswalkers are the closest you get to win con spells in UW Control, though.
Plague Engineer and Winds of Abandon seem promising; I think UW might want Winds over stuff like Oust and Condemn. Declaration in Stone doesn't see play but that potentially draws the opponent real cards, and the Overload is very relevant for UW.
Why can't those people enjoy the good stuff and deal with it ? One can enjoy :
1- what's gonna be the limited environment of MH1,
4- the flavour of many cards (text, call back),
5- the Commander extra support,
6- the Pauper extra support.
The problem with these 4 points is that this should be Modern Horizons. Aegraen put it pretty well that, for months now, Modern Horizons has been used as a wavehand argument that it should fix "everything wrong with Modern". I've always been skeptical of this as I do not know what kind of card you could print that would universally boost interaction in modern with how wide the scope of linear decks is. However, my hope really was for a set specifically designed for your points 2 and 3, interesting additions to lower tier decks. Which they have largely delivered on, BUT as I said in my previous post on the matter, I am more disappointed by the marketing; there is a boatload of stuff in this set that at least asks for testing in Modern, but we are clearly sharing the spotlight with Commander after months of hypinig up a set specifically for "us Modern players". Again, if this was "Rainbow Masters" I'd be giving a standing ovation for the horizon lands alone, but as THE Modern set I'm currently giving it a lukewarm 7/10.
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Force of Rage is very disappointing. A Pyrokinesis version would have been so much more valuable. I don't understand why UBG got obvious policing/answer cards and RW got weird stuff. I'm curious to see the design decisions there.
Counterspell exclusion is unsurprising (I thought it was a goner the second we saw FoN and Prohibit in the same set), but the rationale is particularly disappointing. Forcing players to use mediocre effects in place of a good one does not make those mediocre effects better. If Wizards banned Bolt tomorrow, URx decks and Jund wouldn't suddenly switch to Lighting Strike. They'd just be ****ed on that slot. Same thing if they banned Thougthseize; Thought Erasure/Duress/Despise don't suddenly become replacements. It's also puzzling because Modern Ux decks don't really use that many counterspells. It's Cryptic Command at 4 CMC, Logic Knot at 2, and a smattering of Leak/Veto/Stroke also at 2 for most decks.
I'm still optimistic. There are still enough slots left in the set that we can hit gold. Cards that could be hits would be the throwback for Swords, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Stifle, and/or Daze. I expect we'll see most of these, if not all. We already have references, at varying power levels, to FoW, Ponder, Preordain, Mom, Flusterstorm (actual reprint), Cabal Therapy, Jitte, Strix, a Mox, Sneak Attack, and fetchlands. It just takes one of these other throwbacks to make a huge format impact.
Not really. There's a lot you can do with UU that are vast upgrades over Counterspell itself. Counter target spell, draw a card. Counter target spell, exile all copies. Counter target spell, Orim's Chant. Counter target spell, Shadow of Doubt. Mana Drain.
R&D is just run by filthy casuals who regard the height of Magic as turning creatures sideways after drafting them. Constructed decks where instants and sorceries are king are the devil in their world, because being told no and going from 20 to 0 in a turn isn't "fair". But what else can you expect from mouth-breathing knuckle draggers?
It looks like some EDH players will be happy, though.
Yes, they didn't give us Counterspell and I am disappointed in that as well. I don't feel it is too powerful for the format but the omission from this set doesn't say anything other than they decided to give us others first. As much as we are "sure" that Counterspell will not break anything, it isn't like Blue is in this terrible position where only Counterspell can make it great again.
Your indictment of their decision making process is incredibly tone deaf considering what we have gotten recently, both in this set and previous sets, when it comes to Blue permission based decks. Teferi is not an aggro card; Search for Azcanta is not an aggro card, Jace is not an aggro card. The fact that we have these cards suggests you have no idea what you are talking about and putting yourself in this position of "WotC hates anything but creatures" simply because we aren't getting Counterspell is incredibly inane.
Containment Priest, Wirewood Symbiote, and Vindicate haven't been crunched out of the set yet. Despite counterspell not being in the set when I was pretty certain it would be, I'm happy with a lot of the cards so far and am really just hoping to see a few more specific cards reprinted like Goblin Ringleader. I'm taking the new cards as a bonus because I have been surprised by most of the new cards.
i mean i get that we as onlookers would be predisposed to focus on reprints when theorycrafting what the set might look like or contain (ie its much harder to envision cards that dont exist). however i still expected more influential, or at least iconic reprints, to be mixed in. plenty of cards yet to be spoiled, but what has been shown so far is considerably...different than what i was expecting. like where are the cards such as vindicate, deed, wild growth, fire/ice, sterling grove, quirion ranger, etc (would have included counterspell in that list)?
i do think some of the newly designed cards, and even the remakes are powerful enough to see play thus impacting the format somewhat. its just off-putting to not see the reprint inclusions that i think many would have rated as clear winners (without being absurdly warping).
lets just say ill be less than pleased if it ends up where most/all of those cards dont show up and instead we get a meme bear tribal and ninja support. not to say that stuff shouldnt exist, rather that there is a time and a place for those things. the FIRST AND ONLY product that can bypass standard into modern might be better served with you know...getting relevant cards into the modern format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)You perfectly articulated my thoughts on the set. Being the first set to bypass standard into modern, the way it was marketed by the mothership, and the name itself made players think they would be getting a set designed to fill some gaps in the format and maybe a few cool new cards to boot. I don't want to jump the gun and crucify the set when only ~50% has been spoiled, but the back half will need to carry the first if wotc wants this set to be anything more than sweet EDH fodder plus a modern-relevant land cycle. If the remaining spoilers contain the same level of mediocrity then I'm clueless as to what R&D thought they would achieve with this project. The only explanation that makes some sort of sense to me is that maybe WotC thought they'd be killing legacy if modern were given access to staple reprints.
What makes it even more baffling is the fact that by going down the route of just 15% reprints, you make the set exponentially more difficult/expensive to produce due to increased R&D, labor, time, etc and end up taking a much larger risk as you're hoping your set of predominately brand new cards has an actual positive impact on a format with an already diverse card pool containing millions of interactions. Chalk it up to overconfidence, ignorance, or apathy; either way, it's not a good look and suggests a significant lack of understanding regarding the format as a whole. You'd think that the people who are allegedly monitoring format health would know a thing or two about the modern infrastructure and which existing cards, that they can extrapolate data from b/c they exist, could be introduced into the format to remedy things they may perceive as degenerate, balance the color pie, aid bottom tier archetypes, etc.
To reiterate my overall outlook on the set, I'm cautiously optimistic about the second half and don't want to jump the gun. However, a second half which mirrors the first would make this set a complete flop in my view or at least in terms of what it was marketed to be. Maybe R&D assumed functional variants of legacy staples would serve the same purpose as reprints, but at this point in time it looks like that kind of thinking and lack of established reprints will be the two notable failures should MH ultimately miss the mark.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Spirits
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Perhaps the best part of Splicer's Skill is that the token-making machine is close to impossible to interrupt once you have the mana to fuel it, unlike Young Pyromancer or Saheeli, Sublime Artificer--your opponent can't just aim spot removal at the token maker or attack it, and they can counter one Spliced instant/sorcery but they can't counter them all. Your opponent pretty much needs to targeted discard or Vendilion Clique Splicer's Skill. It is for that reason that I believe Splicer's Skill is likely to see play as an alt win con in combo sideboards.
In the meantime, Force of Negation was underrated against Gx Tron--turns out that a counterspell I can cast after desperately trying to Snapcaster Mage into Opt on 3 lands is quite good. Force of Negation still feels like it has all the unable-to-deal-with-creatures weaknesses of Negate, though, so I don't think it'll push out counterspells that can counter creatures.
Prohibit was fine. On the one hand, a cheap hard counter feels so good. On the other hand, I often couldn't counter a 3-4-mana card with it because I couldn't kick Prohibit on 2-3 lands.
Now on Force of Negation I agree the main use seems to be saying nope to their Walkers.
1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.
2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.
3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.
I personally like what I'm seeing when I just look at the new cards individually; some safety measures, cool lands, new tools to tinker with (I'd love to attack with a Glistener Wurm) and some cards that get a reference or lore chuckle (the goat-stealing thing was great). However, up to now it feels like they designed FoN + a slightly more powerful standard set rather than something that directly addresses modern issues. Mostly, I see an effort to try and invigorate low-tier archetypes, which is commendable (and which I also like) but not exactly I believe what people had in mind.
Note: I'm saying that it feels like this, because they could have done something great that nobody knows yet - e.g. the elephant gift sounds promising.
GW Copycat
Jund Loam
It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.
I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.
Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.
I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.
If they didn't advertise this set as being specifically for Modern, I'd be less soured. If this was like, "Rainbow Masters" or whatever, I wouldn't groan with every obvious commanderbait card, and cute references like Ponder Mage would actually be charming instead of just draft fodder for the pile. Eyeballing it I'm at a ~25 out of 93 cards that might be interesting for modern, which is absurdly high for any other product, but disappointing after the marketing.
Modern Horizons was our birthday party and now it turns out we have to share the presents with the Commander people.
Most of the people *****ing are *****ing because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.
Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.
Bingo; spot on. I'll gladly rescind my salt and applaud wotc for the mind **** if the second half of spoilers is chock full of gems that actually address gaps in the format.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
What is it with Counterspell seriously ? They don't have the gift they order Santa Claus, so they sulk and let everyone know on the internet ? Is it really the one card that defines whether this set is good or not ? Aren't the 4 counter spells revealed enough yet ?
Why can't those people enjoy the good stuff and deal with it ? One can enjoy :
1- what's gonna be the limited environment of MH1,
2- some playable niche cards for tier 3 decks,
3- some flashy cards for tier 1-2 decks,
4- the flavour of many cards (text, call back),
5- the Commander extra support,
6- the Pauper extra support.
There's already nearly 30 cards that are gonna see play in Modern, THIRTY. Are those people blind and only see what's good for the only one archetype they play ? Legacy staples and strong role players (Counterspell is one) will not be in MH1. Get. Over. It.
MH1 is not only there to fix the MUs we're not comfortable with, it's not only there to shut Phoenix, Humans or Tron down. It's also there to make a playable limited format, push bad and average decks, cautiously reprint old cards, and (re)test the water of many mechanics. This set is not a BR announcement, this set is not the merger with Legacy.
It's not healthy to read these forums when mindsets are targetted at one specific wish (the BR Announcement is sometimes as painful to read because of that). This set has already me convinced it's going to shift the Modern metagame. What bothers me most is people who complain this is a Commander set, how wrong they are imo.
Plague Engineer is Engineered Plague on a Deathtouch 2/2, complete with the same mana cost. I have to admit that part of the appeal of Engineered Plague is its resilience against spot removal...but will Plague Engineer see play anyway? Collected Company and Traverse the Ulvenwald decks may want this card...
"Hexdrinker" is a 2/1 for G, Level Up for 1, is a 4/4 with Protection from instants at Levels 3-7, and is a 6/6 with Protection from everything at Levels 8 and up. It dies to removal but certainly strains removal suites, although LOL Teferi, Time Raveler hurts it quite a bit before Level 8. Especially with new toys that can tutor for it like Ranger-Captain of Eos, might it see play?
For hilarity's sake, King of the Pride is a 2/1 Cat lord for 2W that pumps +2/+1.
Turns out that I tested by ditching Secure the Wastes in UWR Control and some flex slot in UW Control (in fact, I updated my UW Control deck for War of the Spark, so the number of planeswalkers in that deck went up after sticking Splicer's Skill in). Planeswalkers are the closest you get to win con spells in UW Control, though.
The problem with these 4 points is that this should be Modern Horizons. Aegraen put it pretty well that, for months now, Modern Horizons has been used as a wavehand argument that it should fix "everything wrong with Modern". I've always been skeptical of this as I do not know what kind of card you could print that would universally boost interaction in modern with how wide the scope of linear decks is. However, my hope really was for a set specifically designed for your points 2 and 3, interesting additions to lower tier decks. Which they have largely delivered on, BUT as I said in my previous post on the matter, I am more disappointed by the marketing; there is a boatload of stuff in this set that at least asks for testing in Modern, but we are clearly sharing the spotlight with Commander after months of hypinig up a set specifically for "us Modern players". Again, if this was "Rainbow Masters" I'd be giving a standing ovation for the horizon lands alone, but as THE Modern set I'm currently giving it a lukewarm 7/10.