I feel like you just offered an argument to not reprint it. Endlessly recurrable Snapcaster Mages? Only reliably stopped by land destruction? Sounds extremely risky.
I predict they'll take a cautious approach to this set. Counterspell is probably the limit of riskiness they'll be willing to engage in.
At 1U to bounce a Wizard, it could encourage longer Modern games. I'm 99% sure that if Riptide Laboratory did NOT tap for a colorless, it would be completely safe for Modern. I think (and have already though for a long time now) that Riptide Laboratory is fine for Modern. I have a long list of cards that I feel fit the bill.
If Counterspell is the limit of riskiness that Wizards is willing to do, that's pretty sad. I mean, 1 whole set just to let in a single card that most players know is fine? This is just a glacially (to quote my friends here) slow way to do things.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
reliably stopped by well-timed removal. Id love riptide lab in modern, and i think it adds new dimensions to blue that arent absurd. I hope it does get a reprint with the other class tribal lands
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
There was a time when Riptide Laboratory was a boring card that led to long games of Magic and people believed it should be banned in Extended while Sensei's Divining Top was perfectly fine.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
I feel like you just offered an argument to not reprint it. Endlessly recurrable Snapcaster Mages? Only reliably stopped by land destruction? Sounds extremely risky.
I predict they'll take a cautious approach to this set. Counterspell is probably the limit of riskiness they'll be willing to engage in.
Seems fine, by the time you're doing bounce shenanigans the game has progressed towards its later stages anyway and you probably have ways to deal with it. Field of Ruin, GQ, Assassin's Trophy, Bolt or Push the target in response... Most wizards die to a small breeze either way so they're not hard to remove. I don't mind seeing Faeries get a potential little upgrade either. I reckon it's totally fine.
Please not Yuriko. I love that card but modern really doesn't need a beater that efficient. Flipping 10 damage and a card draw off a split card while reusing a baleful strix isn't my idea of a good time.
I think riptide would be fine. You're paying 3 mana to bounce a wizard. Most of the playable wizards have 1-2 toughness so getting killed in response is a real thing with bolt/push. Plus you'd need atleast 5 mana in order to bounce stuff like spellstutter and recast it in the same turn. Even more for things like snapcaster. The kind of gameplay patterns that promotes i think would be a positive for the format. Especially if you want to slow modern down.
Dumb question, probably answered elsewhere, but I can't find it.
What do they want to print in Modern Horizons that cannot be printed in the Commander Sets? Why a new separate set? And why not "Legacy Horizons" then?
1. Unlike in commander sets, anything printed in this set is legal in modern (which would tough for commander decks unless wizards wanted to push sol ring into modern).
2. There is an established history of having a special set with some new cards during the summer (see battlebond, conspiracy, conspiracy 2) so this set has some general precedence (and fills the gap before commander decks come out)
3. This set also appears to be taking the place of modern masters. While wizards can put awesome reprints in a commander deck, they are kind of limited in how good those cards can be or else a) the price of the decks would shoot up b) the valuable deck would be bought out everywhere by resellers, and/or c) the value of the reprints would tank and collectors would get mad. In a masters-esque set, however, wizards is free to put a couple of $50+ reprints (increasing supply and temporarily lowering costs for us) without as much risk.
Dumb question, probably answered elsewhere, but I can't find it.
What do they want to print in Modern Horizons that cannot be printed in the Commander Sets? Why a new separate set? And why not "Legacy Horizons" then?
1. I would imagine, its power level will be tuned to Modern.
2. Legacy, is FAR less likely to get immediate support because if you push it, with the reserve list (and duals) still being an issue? Not good.
3. Modern needed this, to detach from Standard's gate keeping.
4. Modern remains one of the most popular formats, and Wizards should monetize it.
As to what they print? I hope for something like Foil. Counterspell wont even be good.
i actually took a look at the cards in the commander products for the first time today (i dont pay much attention to anything not played in large tournaments), and i gotta say some of the cards are pretty wild. they immediately brought to mind MaRo's explanation on how a set like horizons is innovative:
I think the best way to explain why this set is applicable to more than just Modern players is to go back to where the set began. When Ethan and I first pitched this set in the Hackathon, here’s what we said, “One of the cool things about a supplemental set is that we can focus on ideas that we’re unwilling to do in a Standard-legal set. What if we took off the shackles and just made a set full of cards that we know players would love, but are hard to do with all the limitations that come with a normal Magic set. What if we dove deep into the creative and mechanical elements of Magic’s twenty-five year history and just had a blast designing cards? We could make something really awesome.” It took us the week of the Hackathon to put together our proof of concept, but once everyone saw it, we were given the green light. And then we had a lot of fun making a very interesting set. You don’t have to be a Modern player to love Modern Horizons just a Magic player.
the way i interpret this is that stuff like the commander sets provide more creative freedom to the designers. for example card complexity; you dont have to worry about it so much when you know the target players are likely to be adept at parsing rules interactions and enfranchised with the game as a whole. so really its not that there is something they wanted to print into horizons but couldnt put it into a commander deck, but rather that they wanted to be able to print commander style cards into modern. a set like horizons is the only way to do that because making the commander products modern legal wouldnt work with cards like sol ring and what not around.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
If Counterspell is the limit of riskiness that Wizards is willing to do, that's pretty sad. I mean, 1 whole set just to let in a single card that most players know is fine? This is just a glacially (to quote my friends here) slow way to do things.
Disclaimer to start: I do not think that Wizards have anything cut in stone, and that they very likely do a wait and see approach with regards to Modern Horizons and how they follow it up.
So how wild is this theory?
Wizards said early, and repeated it more recently, that Modern is supposed to be a place where standard cards and decks can go after rotating out of Standard. As the power level of modern increases, this becomes less and less relevant. The printing of Modern Horizons will likely exacerbate this trend even further.
We know there will be some sort of non-rotating format coming to Arena.
Mark Rosewater has said time and time again that it is only a matter of time before a new non-rotating format gets introduced between Standard and Modern. It is possible that this "Arena Standard plus" translates to paper and becomes "new modern"/"post modern" whatever.
There are still people who wants to play with the oldest of cards, and I think this has an appeal to Wizards too. First, because many of the people working there love the history of the game, and secondly because it is a marketing tool to be able to talk about the "rich history" and whatever.
If we extrapolate from today around 5 years into the future. .. where is Modern, where is Legacy, and where is "Arena Standard Plus"? By that time, could it not be that "Arena Standard plus" is a pretty cool format (would be of similar number of years' worth of cards to Modern at its inception) and that Legacy is even more marginal than it is today?
Where would people go to play Brainstorm, Force of Will and Stifle?
From that point of view, could it not make sense to gradually increase the Modern cardpool with regular Horizons sets until you eventually have more or less reserve-list free legacy?
It would take some time and as I said, they would gauge customer response.. but if Modern Horizons go over well they will want to do it again. And if they didn't break anything they will want/need to increase the power level to make the product appealing. So perhaps Force is off the limits for MH1, but perhaps by MH3 it will be fine, along with Wasteland?
(...)and that Legacy is even deader than it is today?
SCG Open Syracuse last week had 656 players. How is that a dead format?
Yeah, bad wording. Legacy isn't dead, and if it is dying it is dying quite slowly. But it cannot grow, and it is as far as I know very regionally limited. I'll edit my post to say "marginal".
Disclaimer to start: I do not think that Wizards have anything cut in stone, and that they very likely do a wait and see approach with regards to Modern Horizons and how they follow it up.
So how wild is this theory?
honestly its pretty wild. there just isnt much substance and you are layering all these assumptions on top of one another. in fairness, ive seen similar theories thrown around
for instance you start with one thing we know for sure: some format will be created on arena because there has to be some way for players to still get use out of rotated cards. then suddenly we are 5 years out and wizards is crafting modern into legacy without the RL. any number of sequences of events are equally likely, or at least there is nothing saying your theory is more so.
what if standard plus isnt well received, or doesnt gain traction in paper. as you said at the start wizards is responsive to what the players/customers put their backing behind by showing up, spending money, and playing.
not to mention any number of things could come up. like what if pauper takes off in popularity and wizards puts work into it; where might it fit in. or if the already most popular casual format in edh is enormously favored by arena players as their paper outlet because it turns out playing standard on arena and buying cards that cost quite (relatively) all just to do more of the same thing isnt appealing. hell what if modern is seen as that outlet
also you highlight how wizards might be interested in maintaining these outlets of play showcasing a rich 25+ years of gameplay and design, but for some reason they are alright with destroying what modern offers, its uniqueness and identity, to recreate it in legacy's image. if we're thinking about 5 years what stopped wizards from just putting modern or whatever else on to arena
so yeah id say the theory is a little out there. im assuming there is some wishful thinking involved? i know its not uncommon for players wanting to play legacy but its just not a feasible option thanks to cost.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Disclaimer to start: I do not think that Wizards have anything cut in stone, and that they very likely do a wait and see approach with regards to Modern Horizons and how they follow it up.
So how wild is this theory?
honestly its pretty wild.
Thanks for taking the time, its interesting to get a discussion going.
I guess it is one way it could go among a ton of others, as you say. But when it comes to "respecting what Modern has to offer", isn't printing Modern Horizons already "disrespecting" Modern? Or, at least, it could be framed that way? Printing strong cards into Modern would presumably shift the format around, raise the power level, break some rules and step on some toes..?
As for wishful thinking.. maybe a bit, maybe not. I wish Legacy would be allowed to be its own thing and thrive, to be honest. But I also like the idea of having an "eternal" format that isn't touched by the reserved list.
Come to think of it. What are the defining characteristics of Modern vs. Legacy? I could suggest Modern has very little fast mana, (almost) no free counterspells, no brainstorm and a fetch-shock mana base. If they print 3-4 Modern Horizon sets, but stay clear of those (or probably, a better, more thought out set of) rules, will we conserve Modern's uniqueness?
It is also possible that they only want to do this once. Use MH to shore up some of the formats weaknesses (A modern-level FoW, a modern-level Wasteland, etc.) and then sit back and let the format evolve forever with new Standard cards and the tools to adapt to whatever will be the next Cathartic Reunion/Reality Smasher. That sounds sweet.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Glad to see another person wanting Terravore!
Need to reprint him. He's the only one in the cycle that is not modern legal.
_____________________________
On another thing. Is it certain that nothing from 8th edition and above will be reprinted?
I was sort of hoping for a Griselbrand reprint to bring the price down a bit.
I predict they'll take a cautious approach to this set. Counterspell is probably the limit of riskiness they'll be willing to engage in.
If Counterspell is the limit of riskiness that Wizards is willing to do, that's pretty sad. I mean, 1 whole set just to let in a single card that most players know is fine? This is just a glacially (to quote my friends here) slow way to do things.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Seems fine, by the time you're doing bounce shenanigans the game has progressed towards its later stages anyway and you probably have ways to deal with it. Field of Ruin, GQ, Assassin's Trophy, Bolt or Push the target in response... Most wizards die to a small breeze either way so they're not hard to remove. I don't mind seeing Faeries get a potential little upgrade either. I reckon it's totally fine.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
What do they want to print in Modern Horizons that cannot be printed in the Commander Sets? Why a new separate set? And why not "Legacy Horizons" then?
2. There is an established history of having a special set with some new cards during the summer (see battlebond, conspiracy, conspiracy 2) so this set has some general precedence (and fills the gap before commander decks come out)
3. This set also appears to be taking the place of modern masters. While wizards can put awesome reprints in a commander deck, they are kind of limited in how good those cards can be or else a) the price of the decks would shoot up b) the valuable deck would be bought out everywhere by resellers, and/or c) the value of the reprints would tank and collectors would get mad. In a masters-esque set, however, wizards is free to put a couple of $50+ reprints (increasing supply and temporarily lowering costs for us) without as much risk.
Hope that helps.
1. I would imagine, its power level will be tuned to Modern.
2. Legacy, is FAR less likely to get immediate support because if you push it, with the reserve list (and duals) still being an issue? Not good.
3. Modern needed this, to detach from Standard's gate keeping.
4. Modern remains one of the most popular formats, and Wizards should monetize it.
As to what they print? I hope for something like Foil. Counterspell wont even be good.
Spirits
the way i interpret this is that stuff like the commander sets provide more creative freedom to the designers. for example card complexity; you dont have to worry about it so much when you know the target players are likely to be adept at parsing rules interactions and enfranchised with the game as a whole. so really its not that there is something they wanted to print into horizons but couldnt put it into a commander deck, but rather that they wanted to be able to print commander style cards into modern. a set like horizons is the only way to do that because making the commander products modern legal wouldnt work with cards like sol ring and what not around.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)So how wild is this theory?
Wizards said early, and repeated it more recently, that Modern is supposed to be a place where standard cards and decks can go after rotating out of Standard. As the power level of modern increases, this becomes less and less relevant. The printing of Modern Horizons will likely exacerbate this trend even further.
We know there will be some sort of non-rotating format coming to Arena.
Mark Rosewater has said time and time again that it is only a matter of time before a new non-rotating format gets introduced between Standard and Modern. It is possible that this "Arena Standard plus" translates to paper and becomes "new modern"/"post modern" whatever.
There are still people who wants to play with the oldest of cards, and I think this has an appeal to Wizards too. First, because many of the people working there love the history of the game, and secondly because it is a marketing tool to be able to talk about the "rich history" and whatever.
If we extrapolate from today around 5 years into the future. .. where is Modern, where is Legacy, and where is "Arena Standard Plus"? By that time, could it not be that "Arena Standard plus" is a pretty cool format (would be of similar number of years' worth of cards to Modern at its inception) and that Legacy is even more marginal than it is today?
Where would people go to play Brainstorm, Force of Will and Stifle?
From that point of view, could it not make sense to gradually increase the Modern cardpool with regular Horizons sets until you eventually have more or less reserve-list free legacy?
It would take some time and as I said, they would gauge customer response.. but if Modern Horizons go over well they will want to do it again. And if they didn't break anything they will want/need to increase the power level to make the product appealing. So perhaps Force is off the limits for MH1, but perhaps by MH3 it will be fine, along with Wasteland?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
SCG Open Syracuse last week had 656 players. How is that a dead format?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Yeah, bad wording. Legacy isn't dead, and if it is dying it is dying quite slowly. But it cannot grow, and it is as far as I know very regionally limited. I'll edit my post to say "marginal".
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Commander:
Daretti, Scrap Savant (R)
Baral, Chief of Compliance (U)
Marwyn, the Nurturer (G)
Titania, Protector of Argoth (G)
Erebos, God of the Dead (B)
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (C)
Legacy:
Eldrazi (C)
Burn (R)
Modern:
Tron (G)
Eldrazi (C)
Burn (RGW)
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Anything that gives you free mana is not safe.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
honestly its pretty wild. there just isnt much substance and you are layering all these assumptions on top of one another. in fairness, ive seen similar theories thrown around
for instance you start with one thing we know for sure: some format will be created on arena because there has to be some way for players to still get use out of rotated cards. then suddenly we are 5 years out and wizards is crafting modern into legacy without the RL. any number of sequences of events are equally likely, or at least there is nothing saying your theory is more so.
what if standard plus isnt well received, or doesnt gain traction in paper. as you said at the start wizards is responsive to what the players/customers put their backing behind by showing up, spending money, and playing.
not to mention any number of things could come up. like what if pauper takes off in popularity and wizards puts work into it; where might it fit in. or if the already most popular casual format in edh is enormously favored by arena players as their paper outlet because it turns out playing standard on arena and buying cards that cost quite (relatively) all just to do more of the same thing isnt appealing. hell what if modern is seen as that outlet
also you highlight how wizards might be interested in maintaining these outlets of play showcasing a rich 25+ years of gameplay and design, but for some reason they are alright with destroying what modern offers, its uniqueness and identity, to recreate it in legacy's image. if we're thinking about 5 years what stopped wizards from just putting modern or whatever else on to arena
so yeah id say the theory is a little out there. im assuming there is some wishful thinking involved? i know its not uncommon for players wanting to play legacy but its just not a feasible option thanks to cost.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Thanks for taking the time, its interesting to get a discussion going.
I guess it is one way it could go among a ton of others, as you say. But when it comes to "respecting what Modern has to offer", isn't printing Modern Horizons already "disrespecting" Modern? Or, at least, it could be framed that way? Printing strong cards into Modern would presumably shift the format around, raise the power level, break some rules and step on some toes..?
As for wishful thinking.. maybe a bit, maybe not. I wish Legacy would be allowed to be its own thing and thrive, to be honest. But I also like the idea of having an "eternal" format that isn't touched by the reserved list.
Come to think of it. What are the defining characteristics of Modern vs. Legacy? I could suggest Modern has very little fast mana, (almost) no free counterspells, no brainstorm and a fetch-shock mana base. If they print 3-4 Modern Horizon sets, but stay clear of those (or probably, a better, more thought out set of) rules, will we conserve Modern's uniqueness?
It is also possible that they only want to do this once. Use MH to shore up some of the formats weaknesses (A modern-level FoW, a modern-level Wasteland, etc.) and then sit back and let the format evolve forever with new Standard cards and the tools to adapt to whatever will be the next Cathartic Reunion/Reality Smasher. That sounds sweet.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
another card i'd love in modern is Terravore and maybe part of the Anger cycle
“Homo homini lupus est.”
Need to reprint him. He's the only one in the cycle that is not modern legal.
_____________________________
On another thing. Is it certain that nothing from 8th edition and above will be reprinted?
I was sort of hoping for a Griselbrand reprint to bring the price down a bit.
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