Ideally, I’m hoping Modern Horizons brings in old extended archetypes that don’t have a home in Legacy.
I am fearful though that this product introduces too many new cards too quick and changes Modern more rapidly than usual. For me, I enjoy the slow paced Modern evolution as each Standard set releases a few Modern playables. With this set entirely designed as new cards for Modern, be they old pre 8th Edition or brand new cards entirely, it could change Modern much quicker than ever before. Besides rotation, another aspect of Standard that I dislike is how much of a drastic impact a new set has upon the format so I don’t want to see this happen to my favorite format Modern.
Your whole paragraph was great, but the bit in bold really sticks out for me. The whole point of investing in modern for me was not needing a new deck every year.
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Modern: UR Gifts Storm URB Grixis Death's Shadow R12 Bolt
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Still, those kind of decks had Jace, Terminus, Field, opt, abrade, teferi and many other answers. Also, they are getting more in Modern horizons!
Just some nitpicking: When Jeskai was one of the pillars in Modern (and won those things), all those cards (sans Terminus) were either not printed or unbanned yet.
Greetings,
Kathal
I believe he meant that they have received new tools/toys like all decks.
Drama aside, this is such an odd time to discuss the state of modern. With both Modern Horizons and (possibly) the London Mulligan coming up, the entire modern meta could just flip upside down. But on the other hand that is still three months from now. War of the Spark and I think two (?) banlist updates will happen before Horizons.
March 11th I'd still would like to see Faithless Looting get the hammer, I'm not really interested in another 3 months of Phoenixes and Dredge. But with Modern Horizons in sight I would be incredibly surprised if they change modern in any way
Banning faithless looting would be very short-sighted and reactionary.
And I've yet to see anyone express a remotely cogent reason for banning looting, other than vaguery like "it's brainstorm in modern".
Do you have a reason? A reason which isn't just "deck X is good right now" because as we all know, what's good in modern cycles naturally over time and bans aren't an answer to this movement of popularity and metagaming
Remember: bans aren't what we want. They are for exceptional, format-breaking scenarios. They are actively harmful to the playing community and breed a culture of negativity, of ban-fear and knee-jerk ban mania whenever anything gets good and has a target painted on its back.
Look back at Modern, and the discussion surrounding the format: we saw this incoherent ban-mania for death's shadow, we saw it for lantern, we saw it for Tron, we saw it for infect, we saw it for zoo, we saw it for mardu pyromancer, we saw it for jund, we saw it for scapeshift, we saw it for cheerios, for hollow one, grishoalbrand, amulet titan, melira chord, devoted druid, humans, spirits, and the list goes on.
Name a deck that's been in a top8 ever, and you'll be able to find evidence of people panicking and calling for bans because suddenly a new (or old) deck has happened to have a good weekend. These people are demonstrating no rationale, no filter for their immediate gut reaction to a situation.
Ask yourself: Is there a genuine, format-breaking no-going-back absolute last-resort nuclear-option problem with faithless looting. Is that the case? Or is phoenix just having a moment in the sun before it recedes in a month or two, to be replaced by something else.
I'd be extremely surprised if people predicting careful study getting a reprint into modern is possible considering the state of faithless looting. However, one big point which cannot be undersold is that careful study does not have flashback.
This would mean that even though it's extremely similar to faithless looting, it's much more of a nerf to something like dredge because it is a dead card if dredged into your graveyard. It's also one time use unless given flashback so this also a nerf in general to that type of card effect. It may very well be that a ban of looting into a reprint of careful study into modern would give similar serum visions/preordain feel.
It may be the mechanics themselves not the cantrip that is to blame or a printing of something like containment priest may help cool things down. Time will tell.
Look back at Modern, and the discussion surrounding the format: we saw this incoherent ban-mania for death's shadow, we saw it for lantern, we saw it for Tron, we saw it for infect, we saw it for zoo, we saw it for mardu pyromancer, we saw it for jund, we saw it for scapeshift, we saw it for cheerios, for hollow one, grishoalbrand, amulet titan, melira chord, devoted druid, humans, spirits, and the list goes on.
Name a deck that's been in a top8 ever, and you'll be able to find evidence of people panicking and calling for bans because suddenly a new (or old) deck has happened to have a good weekend. These people are demonstrating no rationale, no filter for their immediate gut reaction to a situation.
I do remember the calls to ban things in Lantern and Hollow One to be particularly strong in some previous threads. Although I don't remember anything for Mardu Pyro... must have slipped my mind or I was not reading the threads when the torches and pitch forks were aimed at MP. Well, I'm 80% complete building Mardu Pyro, and hoping looting does not get banned, there is no replacement for it that is just as good.
Banning faithless looting would be very short-sighted and reactionary.
And I've yet to see anyone express a remotely cogent reason for banning looting, other than vaguery like "it's brainstorm in modern".
Do you have a reason? A reason which isn't just "deck X is good right now" because as we all know, what's good in modern cycles naturally over time and bans aren't an answer to this movement of popularity and metagaming
Looting feels like it's starting to tread into mox opal territory for me. It is very very powerful in a number of decks, but those decks are quite different. Looting supports mardu pryomancer, hollow one, dredge, Phoenix and more. Opal supports whir prison, lantern, kci (rip), affinity, hardened scales, and more. I wouldn't be surprised if its under the same level of scrutiny that opal is by the committee. It's not hurting diversity (obviously) but is it an okay card to have around? Both cards can and have shown up at the top of the meta often - they are powerful options.
What I think people fail to realize is that these cards that allow for velocity will just default to the next best thing. Fast mana/card advantage is what you slot in your deck to reach or cast the more broken things sooner than later that define your deck. They're replaceable, even if it's with a far weaker card.
I think that both are fine for modern and I'd much rather see those specific deck engine cards eat the hammer.
Modern is diverse, but you'll often see overlap in these workhouse cards because they're just better at what they do than anything else. collected company, opal, looting, serum visions, etc are just great tools that give consistency to finding payoffs or assembling a subset of cards.
There is some redundancy in payoffs in the format though. I'm surprised that everyone calls for a looting ban when you look at how many decks walking ballista slots into. You have eldrazi tron (tier 2-3), hardened scales (tier 1), and devoted Druid coco (tier 2-3) all running the same payoff card... that's 3 very unique decks and how they generate resources all using a similar payoff card. I bring this up because i agree with you. Arbitrary feelings for bannings and even deck prevalence can't always be the ban criteria. Or 100% of it anyway.
Looting, by design, fuels decks that try to win the game quickly and with little interaction by trading (conventional) card disadvantage for brutal efficiency and should be banned as it is an engine card that gets more broken with new cards being printed, and Arclight Phoenix was the tipping point.
Now if you think that UR phoenix and dredge are fine as they currently are, that is yet another discussion, but I personally think these decks are too strong right now and need a banning. The banlist has historically always focussed on the engines of overpowered strategies (KCI, Birthing Pod, Second Sunrise, Eye of Ugin) so it should be Faithless Looting that gets banned and not anything else from these decks.
A second factor is that the type of decks Faitless Looting fuels are generally decks that are disliked by a lot of people; dredge, phoenix, hollow one, vengevine, grishoalbrand are the ones I can name from the top of my head. This is an argument a lot of people roll their eyes at but I do think it has value; a cardgame should be designed to be fun and although fun is obviously subjective, I don't think it is an outrageous statement to make that many more people dislike playing versus unfair deck than vs fair decks. And this factor has played a role in ban updates in the past; decks like Eggs, KCI, legacy miracles and recently nexus of faith in best of 1 standard all had quality of gameplay be a factor in their bannings.
Also, as a sidenote: I am NOT the only person on the internet. I loathe the argument that "people are always egging for bans". That someone else complained about Death Shadow years ago does not invalidate arguments for something else to be banned now.
Looting, by design, fuels decks that try to win the game quickly and with little interaction by trading (conventional) card disadvantage for brutal efficiency and should be banned as it is an engine card that gets more broken with new cards being printed, and Arclight Phoenix was the tipping point.
That's not 100% accurate, one of the most fair decks, Mardu midrange, was one of the first to play Faithless Looting to big success, and I don't think that it can be describe as a deck with little interaction that tries to win fast. Faithless looting has more applications that you give it credit for. Now, this might be an extra reason to ban it for some people, I just think this clarification was required.
If there is interest in actual discussion about Looting/Stirrings/Terminus/Opal, we could actually talk about those things.
I mean saying looting is fine is an interesting view.
GDS
Pyro
Hollow One
Dredge
Phoenix
All are powered on the back of Looting. All have at some point been the best deck in the format. All would take a massive hit just by removing looting.
I had this discussion about if Phoenix is a yard deck and obviously is. It's just Bloo or Blue Moon, tilted towards Looting to maximize Phoenix.
Anyway, I'd enjoy some actual discussion about those cards, but the article writers are cowards and won't address it.
Looting, by design, fuels decks that try to win the game quickly and with little interaction by trading (conventional) card disadvantage for brutal efficiency and should be banned as it is an engine card that gets more broken with new cards being printed, and Arclight Phoenix was the tipping point.
That's not 100% accurate, one of the most fair decks, Mardu midrange, was one of the first to play Faithless Looting to big success, and I don't think that it can be describe as a deck with little interaction that tries to win fast. Faithless looting has more applications that you give it credit for. Now, this might be an extra reason to ban it for some people, I just think this clarification was required.
I mentioned Mardu being the exception but then backspaced it because my post was already getting lengthy. Yes, mardu is a fair deck that uses looting, but I don't think that invalidates my argument.
I also wouldn't really call Death Shadow a looting deck, as most lists run a singleton that gets sided out most of the time.
March 11th I'd still would like to see Faithless Looting get the hammer,
I really hope not. I just got my foils signed at GP LA. But then again, I guess that's just tradition!
Honestly I don't think it will, as I said with Modern Horizons hitting us in three months there seems very little point in changing the banlist at all on Monday.
If there is interest in actual discussion about Looting/Stirrings/Terminus/Opal, we could actually talk about those things.
I mean saying looting is fine is an interesting view.
GDS
Pyro
Hollow One
Dredge
Phoenix
All are powered on the back of Looting. All have at some point been the best deck in the format. All would take a massive hit just by removing looting.
I think Dredge will be weakened but will survive a looting ban, because they still have Cathartic Reunion and the 1/1 red vampire that can sac itself.
About Mardu Pyro.. I own most of the deck and have playtested a lot already. A looting ban would be really bad.. need it for digging power to get answers, and to put things into the yard for reveler.
Looting, by design, fuels decks that try to win the game quickly and with little interaction by trading (conventional) card disadvantage for brutal efficiency and should be banned as it is an engine card that gets more broken with new cards being printed, and Arclight Phoenix was the tipping point.
That's not 100% accurate, one of the most fair decks, Mardu midrange, was one of the first to play Faithless Looting to big success, and I don't think that it can be describe as a deck with little interaction that tries to win fast. Faithless looting has more applications that you give it credit for. Now, this might be an extra reason to ban it for some people, I just think this clarification was required.
Sure, but KCI could also have just been played in a deck without Scrap Trawler and friends and be totally fair in that deck. That doesn't make it less of an issue, but I also don't think this makes it more of an issue.
If Looting read "draw 2, exile 2" it wouldn't be a problem, probably even be unplayable. As it stands however Looting ranges from "draw 2, discard your 2 worst" to "draw 2, play 2 mediocre creatures for free". Mediocre creatures aren't anything to write home about, but they are card advantage. Free card advantage, no less. This card advantage is either exiled, killing your opponent, or "drawing" you another mediocre creature that costs 0. All this for doing something your deck wants to do anyway; cast spells, play lands, revive other creatures.
All that is possible immediately for R.
Yes, "deck restrictions". Elves has deck restrictions too, okay? I've never understood the deck building restrictions argument; it's probably better stated as "X card is better with these cards" because the only restrictions most cards have is that you can only have 4 of them. Every card is better somewhere than somewhere else, even basic lands are better in your Blood Moon deck than in Four Color Control.
Now, I don't think Looting needs to be banned, I'd rather see Bloodghast go more than anything else. I don't think either needs a ban, but I would not bat an eye if they were. Phoenix is fine for now; it's good, I don't think it's over powering, but I do also recognize that suddenly everyone is playing it in my area in prep for this big weekend.
Ask yourself: Is there a genuine, format-breaking no-going-back absolute last-resort nuclear-option problem with faithless looting. Is that the case? Or is phoenix just having a moment in the sun before it recedes in a month or two, to be replaced by something else.
Exactly ! Humans has been in the sun, now it's phoenix time.
It's all fine, Phoenix is far from being as oppressive as Eldrazi.
I always feel I have a chance against phoenix, I don't even hate the deck. Well said;
All are powered on the back of Looting. (...) All would take a massive hit just by removing looting.
What a pile of nonsense, Looting is ok at best in GDS and when it reigned supreme, nobody even played a single copy.
I thought I saw the most recent GDS is now running it while they search for the best way to dig for their limited threats? I saw that on Twitter by at least 2 GDS players on the SCG/GP grind.
If I'm wrong, no worries.
EDIT: Next ban announcement is Monday. I highly doubt anything happens, but if nothing does, I'll check back in May with those 2 sets I guess.
All are powered on the back of Looting. (...) All would take a massive hit just by removing looting.
What a pile of nonsense, Looting is ok at best in GDS and when it reigned supreme, nobody even played a single copy.
I don't think it's hurting his point to take away 1 of the 5 decks that he listed. Anyway, Mardu Pyromancer and Hollow One are not really played much anymore. I've seen exactly 0 Mardu and 1 Hollow One at Comp REL in the past 2 months and I've played A LOT.
The point remains that the 2 best decks in the format use Faithless Looting. I personally have 4 DA Faithless Looting in my Phoenix, 4 foil DA Faithless Looting in my Grishoalbrand, 4 IDW Faithless Looting in my Dredge, and am currently looking for 4 EMA copies just in case. They really should put more copies of this card, via FNM Promo or something so that I can decipher a difference between all my decks that use the freaking card. Also I don't think IdSurge is looking for a ban. I feel that he's on or close to the train of wanting cards to be unbanned or created in Modern. If Modern Horizons doesn't actually do much, which I personally feel that it will, then probably something should be unbanned or banned.
Look, TBH, we all know that 2 months of Matt Nass and his homies playing Phoenix at GPs and Looting will 100% get the axe. How can we say that it's all right when the same thing happened to Krark-Clan Ironworks? I'm not sure why he's not playing much. Perhaps it's the new Pro structure - it kind of sucks. I personally would find time to quit if I was a Pro Player.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
What bothers me about the Faithless Looting discussion is it seems like complaining and finding fault where none exists.
How many black decks play Thoughtseize? 23%. Do we say black based decks are built off of the backs of hand disruption? Yes, actually sometimes we do.
How many blue decks play Serum Visions? 21%. Do we say blue's strengths are built off of card selection? More so in legacy, but sometimes in modern. '
Faithless Looting is 26%.
Lightning bolt is 40%.
This card is NOT Mental Misstep or Gitaxian Probe. Those are what broken single cards that are used across multiple strategies look like.
Meta share for these cards are almost indistinguishable. Looting effects are a central effect to red's color identity in modern. Why would we take that away, really? Are we trying to say that red decks can only be burn, Jund, or Splinter Twin? Because that's what it was before people remembered Faithless Looting was a card.
A skewed meta game looks like > 50% of decks playing brainstorm, and also >50% of decks playing ponder, and roughly 50% of decks playing Force of Will. And also 56% of decks playing surgical extraction. This tells me that to be successful you must play blue, interact with no mana, and have enough answers in your main deck to play against all strategies.
Faithless looting is not a "format warping" card in the real sense. It is just that it is the central card to red's color identity in modern. Just like thoughtseize, path to exile, noble heirarch, and serum visions.
This is just the first time that red has been able to stand up outside of UR tempo style builds since I've played modern (I started just before Pod was banned). Red is finally a color that can stand on its own in modern, and its not burn, so it makes people uncomfortable because if you aren't turning goblin guide sideways and throwing a lava spike at someones face, but you're playing red, then the group think seems to be that you are playing tier 4 BS. But its not that way anymore.
You can finally play red, not play burn, and not play blue or splash to make BGx into Jund. This is a good thing!
On Phoenix: The archetype is new. The deck's meta share is too low to indicate a problem yet. Give it time. Dust off your leylines, and lose to affinity for a while while modern cycles back to unfair combo and affinity regning supreme. Then Jund will take its spot again after that shift. Then a new aggro combo strategy will emerge to kick Jund/GDS off their high horse. And that cycle should repeat Ad Nauseam (as long as Ad Nauseam never becomes tier 1).
I agree with what you said in theory. Here is how I feel in Real Time Play.
Serum Visions is very meh, but I digress. No card has been played as much as Lightning Bolt in Red or Nature's Claim in Green. Comparing any of the cards that have been banned to these and you'll find some inconsistencies that are better off left alone.
Faithless Looting is Red's "color identity?" No, Burn is Red's color identity and it has done very well since 2012 (and before in every single format).
In Legacy, there has never been that many decks that run those cards. During Miracles before Sensei's Divining Top got banned, it never got that high. Miracles was probably 25% of the meta at the very most. Even during Grixis Delver, it probably peaked at 30%. People swear that Force of Will and Brainstorm are in every deck. There is a reason they're played a lot, but still decks like Eldrazi, Mono Red Prison, Turbo Lands, and BR Reanimator manage to top 8 and win tournaments.
Faithless Looting is much, much better than the other cards you've mentioned. When Phoenix Loots, I usually lose. When they don't, I have a good chance of winning. These are what I have to deal with, regardless of how many Thing, Pteramander, and Phoenix I see. It is very much so a "Legacy power" card, to quote what others like to say about some card that they personally don't want unbanned in Modern. Look at what it does for BR Reanimator in Legacy. It cannot exist without that card.
I am glad that Tempo, or to be more accurate, UR Aggro, is available. I'm one of the first to hate on Jund and those GBx style decks, so I'm with you there.
The Phoenix archetype is new. KCI hadn't been around for over a year. It's almost been around for the same time, possibly a couple of months longer. (I have to see when Scrap Trawler and Arclight Phoenix came out.) It doesn't matter how long something has been around. Deathrite Shaman needed to be banned in Modern immediately, even though it was new at the time. After Bloodbraid Elf took the fall instead, I bought a bunch of Shaman, thinking it was a sacred cow to NOT get banned. Low and behold Wizards ended up eventually banning the correct card and my pocketbook took a hit because of it. Don't ever think that there is a "right" time to ban or unban a card. Wizards will do it when they're good and ready.
EDIT> Looks like I was wrong about KCI. It HAS been around for nearly a year. Sorry.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Faithless Looting powers the two top decks in the Format in Dredge and Phoenix. I find it hilarious Red has the Best Draw Spell and the best Flier in Modern. While Blue and White cry in the corner. Granted Faithless Looting is safe until end of Summer/start of Fall at the earliest as we have Modern Horizons and the London Mulligan rule is tested.
Reading Starcity and Handy's article, Council's Judgement would be a great card, turn 3 Board Wipe that exiles just what you need next to Containment Priest to join Terminus to fight Phoenix and Dredge in UWx Control Decks.
KCI/KCI (as a card and a deck) and looting/phoenix are as different as can be. To think one's banning suggests another is misguided. KCI in an engine card, looting is an enabler. I've said it before: enablers should not get banned. Enablers need to be seriously broken to even be considered.
/Going back to rapidly scanning the thread for any new insight, rarely satisfied.
Faithless Looting powers the two top decks in the Format in Dredge and Phoenix. I find it hilarious Red has the Best Draw Spell and the best Flier in Modern. While Blue and White cry in the corner. Granted Faithless Looting is safe until end of Summer/start of Fall at the earliest as we have Modern Horizons and the London Mulligan rule is tested.
Reading Starcity and Handy's article, Council's Judgement would be a great card, turn 3 Board Wipe that exiles just what you need next to Containment Priest to join Terminus to fight Phoenix and Dredge in UWx Control Decks.
It's the best looting spell you mean. Opt and Serum Visions are still superior draw spells. As for best flier that's debatable as well considering Pteromander is a 5/5 for 2 in the same deck.
I am using Draw generally as in it draws card and is better then serum and opt. Since the discard is not a negative in dredge or phoenix decks and you can play it twice.
Phoenix is better you dont actually hard cast it, it has recursion, its only negative is less damage after you power up mander.
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Your whole paragraph was great, but the bit in bold really sticks out for me. The whole point of investing in modern for me was not needing a new deck every year.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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March 11th I'd still would like to see Faithless Looting get the hammer, I'm not really interested in another 3 months of Phoenixes and Dredge. But with Modern Horizons in sight I would be incredibly surprised if they change modern in any way
And I've yet to see anyone express a remotely cogent reason for banning looting, other than vaguery like "it's brainstorm in modern".
Do you have a reason? A reason which isn't just "deck X is good right now" because as we all know, what's good in modern cycles naturally over time and bans aren't an answer to this movement of popularity and metagaming
Remember: bans aren't what we want. They are for exceptional, format-breaking scenarios. They are actively harmful to the playing community and breed a culture of negativity, of ban-fear and knee-jerk ban mania whenever anything gets good and has a target painted on its back.
Look back at Modern, and the discussion surrounding the format: we saw this incoherent ban-mania for death's shadow, we saw it for lantern, we saw it for Tron, we saw it for infect, we saw it for zoo, we saw it for mardu pyromancer, we saw it for jund, we saw it for scapeshift, we saw it for cheerios, for hollow one, grishoalbrand, amulet titan, melira chord, devoted druid, humans, spirits, and the list goes on.
Name a deck that's been in a top8 ever, and you'll be able to find evidence of people panicking and calling for bans because suddenly a new (or old) deck has happened to have a good weekend. These people are demonstrating no rationale, no filter for their immediate gut reaction to a situation.
Ask yourself: Is there a genuine, format-breaking no-going-back absolute last-resort nuclear-option problem with faithless looting. Is that the case? Or is phoenix just having a moment in the sun before it recedes in a month or two, to be replaced by something else.
This would mean that even though it's extremely similar to faithless looting, it's much more of a nerf to something like dredge because it is a dead card if dredged into your graveyard. It's also one time use unless given flashback so this also a nerf in general to that type of card effect. It may very well be that a ban of looting into a reprint of careful study into modern would give similar serum visions/preordain feel.
It may be the mechanics themselves not the cantrip that is to blame or a printing of something like containment priest may help cool things down. Time will tell.
I do remember the calls to ban things in Lantern and Hollow One to be particularly strong in some previous threads. Although I don't remember anything for Mardu Pyro... must have slipped my mind or I was not reading the threads when the torches and pitch forks were aimed at MP. Well, I'm 80% complete building Mardu Pyro, and hoping looting does not get banned, there is no replacement for it that is just as good.
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Looting feels like it's starting to tread into mox opal territory for me. It is very very powerful in a number of decks, but those decks are quite different. Looting supports mardu pryomancer, hollow one, dredge, Phoenix and more. Opal supports whir prison, lantern, kci (rip), affinity, hardened scales, and more. I wouldn't be surprised if its under the same level of scrutiny that opal is by the committee. It's not hurting diversity (obviously) but is it an okay card to have around? Both cards can and have shown up at the top of the meta often - they are powerful options.
What I think people fail to realize is that these cards that allow for velocity will just default to the next best thing. Fast mana/card advantage is what you slot in your deck to reach or cast the more broken things sooner than later that define your deck. They're replaceable, even if it's with a far weaker card.
I think that both are fine for modern and I'd much rather see those specific deck engine cards eat the hammer.
Modern is diverse, but you'll often see overlap in these workhouse cards because they're just better at what they do than anything else. collected company, opal, looting, serum visions, etc are just great tools that give consistency to finding payoffs or assembling a subset of cards.
There is some redundancy in payoffs in the format though. I'm surprised that everyone calls for a looting ban when you look at how many decks walking ballista slots into. You have eldrazi tron (tier 2-3), hardened scales (tier 1), and devoted Druid coco (tier 2-3) all running the same payoff card... that's 3 very unique decks and how they generate resources all using a similar payoff card. I bring this up because i agree with you. Arbitrary feelings for bannings and even deck prevalence can't always be the ban criteria. Or 100% of it anyway.
Fwiw screw tron ;).
Now if you think that UR phoenix and dredge are fine as they currently are, that is yet another discussion, but I personally think these decks are too strong right now and need a banning. The banlist has historically always focussed on the engines of overpowered strategies (KCI, Birthing Pod, Second Sunrise, Eye of Ugin) so it should be Faithless Looting that gets banned and not anything else from these decks.
A second factor is that the type of decks Faitless Looting fuels are generally decks that are disliked by a lot of people; dredge, phoenix, hollow one, vengevine, grishoalbrand are the ones I can name from the top of my head. This is an argument a lot of people roll their eyes at but I do think it has value; a cardgame should be designed to be fun and although fun is obviously subjective, I don't think it is an outrageous statement to make that many more people dislike playing versus unfair deck than vs fair decks. And this factor has played a role in ban updates in the past; decks like Eggs, KCI, legacy miracles and recently nexus of faith in best of 1 standard all had quality of gameplay be a factor in their bannings.
Also, as a sidenote: I am NOT the only person on the internet. I loathe the argument that "people are always egging for bans". That someone else complained about Death Shadow years ago does not invalidate arguments for something else to be banned now.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I really hope not. I just got my foils signed at GP LA. But then again, I guess that's just tradition!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Congrats on getting those signed. They look awesome.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I mean saying looting is fine is an interesting view.
GDS
Pyro
Hollow One
Dredge
Phoenix
All are powered on the back of Looting. All have at some point been the best deck in the format. All would take a massive hit just by removing looting.
I had this discussion about if Phoenix is a yard deck and obviously is. It's just Bloo or Blue Moon, tilted towards Looting to maximize Phoenix.
Anyway, I'd enjoy some actual discussion about those cards, but the article writers are cowards and won't address it.
Spirits
I mentioned Mardu being the exception but then backspaced it because my post was already getting lengthy. Yes, mardu is a fair deck that uses looting, but I don't think that invalidates my argument.
I also wouldn't really call Death Shadow a looting deck, as most lists run a singleton that gets sided out most of the time.
Honestly I don't think it will, as I said with Modern Horizons hitting us in three months there seems very little point in changing the banlist at all on Monday.
I think Dredge will be weakened but will survive a looting ban, because they still have Cathartic Reunion and the 1/1 red vampire that can sac itself.
About Mardu Pyro.. I own most of the deck and have playtested a lot already. A looting ban would be really bad.. need it for digging power to get answers, and to put things into the yard for reveler.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
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If Looting read "draw 2, exile 2" it wouldn't be a problem, probably even be unplayable. As it stands however Looting ranges from "draw 2, discard your 2 worst" to "draw 2, play 2 mediocre creatures for free". Mediocre creatures aren't anything to write home about, but they are card advantage. Free card advantage, no less. This card advantage is either exiled, killing your opponent, or "drawing" you another mediocre creature that costs 0. All this for doing something your deck wants to do anyway; cast spells, play lands, revive other creatures.
All that is possible immediately for R.
Yes, "deck restrictions". Elves has deck restrictions too, okay? I've never understood the deck building restrictions argument; it's probably better stated as "X card is better with these cards" because the only restrictions most cards have is that you can only have 4 of them. Every card is better somewhere than somewhere else, even basic lands are better in your Blood Moon deck than in Four Color Control.
Now, I don't think Looting needs to be banned, I'd rather see Bloodghast go more than anything else. I don't think either needs a ban, but I would not bat an eye if they were. Phoenix is fine for now; it's good, I don't think it's over powering, but I do also recognize that suddenly everyone is playing it in my area in prep for this big weekend.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Exactly ! Humans has been in the sun, now it's phoenix time.
It's all fine, Phoenix is far from being as oppressive as Eldrazi.
I always feel I have a chance against phoenix, I don't even hate the deck. Well said;
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
What a pile of nonsense, Looting is ok at best in GDS and when it reigned supreme, nobody even played a single copy.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I thought I saw the most recent GDS is now running it while they search for the best way to dig for their limited threats? I saw that on Twitter by at least 2 GDS players on the SCG/GP grind.
If I'm wrong, no worries.
EDIT: Next ban announcement is Monday. I highly doubt anything happens, but if nothing does, I'll check back in May with those 2 sets I guess.
Enjoy.
Spirits
I don't think it's hurting his point to take away 1 of the 5 decks that he listed. Anyway, Mardu Pyromancer and Hollow One are not really played much anymore. I've seen exactly 0 Mardu and 1 Hollow One at Comp REL in the past 2 months and I've played A LOT.
The point remains that the 2 best decks in the format use Faithless Looting. I personally have 4 DA Faithless Looting in my Phoenix, 4 foil DA Faithless Looting in my Grishoalbrand, 4 IDW Faithless Looting in my Dredge, and am currently looking for 4 EMA copies just in case. They really should put more copies of this card, via FNM Promo or something so that I can decipher a difference between all my decks that use the freaking card. Also I don't think IdSurge is looking for a ban. I feel that he's on or close to the train of wanting cards to be unbanned or created in Modern. If Modern Horizons doesn't actually do much, which I personally feel that it will, then probably something should be unbanned or banned.
Look, TBH, we all know that 2 months of Matt Nass and his homies playing Phoenix at GPs and Looting will 100% get the axe. How can we say that it's all right when the same thing happened to Krark-Clan Ironworks? I'm not sure why he's not playing much. Perhaps it's the new Pro structure - it kind of sucks. I personally would find time to quit if I was a Pro Player.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)How many black decks play Thoughtseize? 23%. Do we say black based decks are built off of the backs of hand disruption? Yes, actually sometimes we do.
How many blue decks play Serum Visions? 21%. Do we say blue's strengths are built off of card selection? More so in legacy, but sometimes in modern. '
Faithless Looting is 26%.
Lightning bolt is 40%.
This card is NOT Mental Misstep or Gitaxian Probe. Those are what broken single cards that are used across multiple strategies look like.
Meta share for these cards are almost indistinguishable. Looting effects are a central effect to red's color identity in modern. Why would we take that away, really? Are we trying to say that red decks can only be burn, Jund, or Splinter Twin? Because that's what it was before people remembered Faithless Looting was a card.
A skewed meta game looks like > 50% of decks playing brainstorm, and also >50% of decks playing ponder, and roughly 50% of decks playing Force of Will. And also 56% of decks playing surgical extraction. This tells me that to be successful you must play blue, interact with no mana, and have enough answers in your main deck to play against all strategies.
Faithless looting is not a "format warping" card in the real sense. It is just that it is the central card to red's color identity in modern. Just like thoughtseize, path to exile, noble heirarch, and serum visions.
This is just the first time that red has been able to stand up outside of UR tempo style builds since I've played modern (I started just before Pod was banned). Red is finally a color that can stand on its own in modern, and its not burn, so it makes people uncomfortable because if you aren't turning goblin guide sideways and throwing a lava spike at someones face, but you're playing red, then the group think seems to be that you are playing tier 4 BS. But its not that way anymore.
You can finally play red, not play burn, and not play blue or splash to make BGx into Jund. This is a good thing!
On Phoenix: The archetype is new. The deck's meta share is too low to indicate a problem yet. Give it time. Dust off your leylines, and lose to affinity for a while while modern cycles back to unfair combo and affinity regning supreme. Then Jund will take its spot again after that shift. Then a new aggro combo strategy will emerge to kick Jund/GDS off their high horse. And that cycle should repeat Ad Nauseam (as long as Ad Nauseam never becomes tier 1).
Modern:
EDH:
Serum Visions is very meh, but I digress. No card has been played as much as Lightning Bolt in Red or Nature's Claim in Green. Comparing any of the cards that have been banned to these and you'll find some inconsistencies that are better off left alone.
Faithless Looting is Red's "color identity?" No, Burn is Red's color identity and it has done very well since 2012 (and before in every single format).
In Legacy, there has never been that many decks that run those cards. During Miracles before Sensei's Divining Top got banned, it never got that high. Miracles was probably 25% of the meta at the very most. Even during Grixis Delver, it probably peaked at 30%. People swear that Force of Will and Brainstorm are in every deck. There is a reason they're played a lot, but still decks like Eldrazi, Mono Red Prison, Turbo Lands, and BR Reanimator manage to top 8 and win tournaments.
Faithless Looting is much, much better than the other cards you've mentioned. When Phoenix Loots, I usually lose. When they don't, I have a good chance of winning. These are what I have to deal with, regardless of how many Thing, Pteramander, and Phoenix I see. It is very much so a "Legacy power" card, to quote what others like to say about some card that they personally don't want unbanned in Modern. Look at what it does for BR Reanimator in Legacy. It cannot exist without that card.
I am glad that Tempo, or to be more accurate, UR Aggro, is available. I'm one of the first to hate on Jund and those GBx style decks, so I'm with you there.
The Phoenix archetype is new.
KCI hadn't been around for over a year. It's almost been around for the same time, possibly a couple of months longer. (I have to see when Scrap Trawler and Arclight Phoenix came out.) It doesn't matter how long something has been around.Deathrite Shaman needed to be banned in Modern immediately, even though it was new at the time. After Bloodbraid Elf took the fall instead, I bought a bunch of Shaman, thinking it was a sacred cow to NOT get banned. Low and behold Wizards ended up eventually banning the correct card and my pocketbook took a hit because of it. Don't ever think that there is a "right" time to ban or unban a card. Wizards will do it when they're good and ready.EDIT> Looks like I was wrong about KCI. It HAS been around for nearly a year. Sorry.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Reading Starcity and Handy's article, Council's Judgement would be a great card, turn 3 Board Wipe that exiles just what you need next to Containment Priest to join Terminus to fight Phoenix and Dredge in UWx Control Decks.
/Going back to rapidly scanning the thread for any new insight, rarely satisfied.
It's the best looting spell you mean. Opt and Serum Visions are still superior draw spells. As for best flier that's debatable as well considering Pteromander is a 5/5 for 2 in the same deck.
Phoenix is better you dont actually hard cast it, it has recursion, its only negative is less damage after you power up mander.