The non Spectacle cost is irrelevant. The Spectacle cost for it and Light up the Stage are the issues. No one is casting for the actual cost, its creeping chill 2.0. It could cost 20 non spectacle and only very rarely impact edge cases. I mean do Burn decks even want more then 3 lands anyway. Isn't four lands basically flooding for them. They both be fine at a spectacle cost of 2.
Black is Black. Red and Green are constantly pushing the bounds while White and Blue get shackled.
I think they should have been more cautious printing Skewer the Critics. It's definitely upped Burn's power significantly. I'm unsure what the correct costing should have been, however. Instant with nonspectacle cost of 3R? Burn thread says it's cast for R about 80% of the time, and with that rate, 2R is fine to pay for it every once in a while. Another issue is that I'm unsure what to ban from Burn if it runs out of control. Probably Eidolon?
I think Burn cant run out of control. Its very one-dimensional and easily counterable. If it gets to high meta percentage people will use more lifegain and Burn will fall. I think Burn, Affinity and Dredge are all very good decks to be t1-t2 forever and at the same time they are self-balancing because they are easy to counter.
So, nexus of fate banned in bo1 standard. What does have to add here, in the discussion, concerning Modern? Let's quote the second part of the text that is more relevant to Modern.
2. Is the card disrupting normal play?
This is, admittedly, a rather subjective criterion and is one of the reasons why we've thought long and hard about how we wanted to address Nexus of Fate. This isn't the first time we've taken into consideration the disruption of normal play when it came to determining whether a card warranted a ban: the Eggs deck is probably the most prolific example of this, but we've also seen it play a factor in the more recent bannings of Aetherworks Marvel and Krark-Clan Ironworks. As anyone who's been looped by a Nexus of Fate can attest, the card can easily and significantly disrupt normal play.
The tricky thing with this situation is what makes Nexus of Fate frustrating—a combination of its design and how technology handles the ability to repeat actions. You typically don't run into the same situations in tabletop because our rules do allow for certain shortcuts. When looping a sequence in tabletop, if both players mutually understand what's going on, it's okay to fast forward until the loop is broken—either because the game is won, or the player looping has reached their desired board state. Worst case scenario, players in competitive play can also call over a Judge to keep a stalled game moving. The same cannot be said for digital environments where you must explicitly identify each game choice every time you wish to make it. There's no calling over the games rules engine to explain the situation so you can skip ahead, or to issue a ruling on whether the actions taken could be considered stalling or slow play (at least not yet!). Part of the challenge with these kinds of loops is that even if we manage to win the digital arms race to force a game concede when game states remain unchanged, they could still be disruptive to what we consider normal play. Using Nexus of Fate as an example, win conditions sometimes take a half hour or more to finish, with the majority or all of that time being non-interactive. This said, there are also cases where Nexus sees play and resolves games in a non-disruptive fashion, which is why banning it has been debated for so long.
This means that the "logistic reason" criterion, we mostly talked about, is a subjective criterion. When a deck is "disrupting normal play", this deck is also unfun to play against. This means that Eggs and KCI (and marvel, for that case) were banned, because they were unfun as decks to play against. This means something. When a deck that is "disrupting normal play" is also a powerful deck, thus when the player base is expressing an outcry about it, it might be banned in the future again.
This, though, requires this "unfun" deck is also powerful. For example, Lantern Control, the 4C Whir deck, are not strong enough to meet both criteria(the disruption of normal play and the tier 1 status).
I remember that I have a debate with @KTK over this 1 or 2 years ago. I was saying that the "unfun to play against" is not a criterion. This quote could mean that it could be. Now, I am not certain, it's just a legitimate thing that's been going through my head for years, and it's a nice subject to break this "FREE TWIN OMG" vicious circle.
In the case someone says that the "disruption of normal play" is the criterion and the "unfun to play against" clause is just the symptom of the first, which was also @KTK's answer back then, (and I took it), I have to say that Aetherworks Marvel is also being quoted in their text. Marvel did not cause logistical reasons, did not take aeons to play against. It was just unfun to play against, because it was causing "turn 4 scoop it up" moments.
I think in this case, disrupting normal play meant "using the mechanics of arena to hold the game hostage" - did you hear about the streamer who sat opposite someone looping Nexuses (Nexi?) for 2 hours straight, waiting for them to quit? On MTGO, that's no problem. Just F6 until the guy loses. Fine. On Arena, no such luck. That's why the card was a problem and wizards didn't want it staining the new toy.
As for lantern, well, it might take its sweet time, but it at least DOES something on all of those turns.
Marvel was just too much for standard.
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Marvel was too much for Standard, sure. But I didn't know it was "disrupting normal play". It was unfun for sure, and that's because it was banned probably.
It depends on what normal play means in the context of the format. Us modern players are used to a T4 win, but wizards and the standard community probably felt it was too quick and consistent for the format.
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Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
The non Spectacle cost is irrelevant. The Spectacle cost for it and Light up the Stage are the issues. No one is casting for the actual cost, its creeping chill 2.0. It could cost 20 non spectacle and only very rarely impact edge cases. I mean do Burn decks even want more then 3 lands anyway. Isn't four lands basically flooding for them. They both be fine at a spectacle cost of 2.
Black is Black. Red and Green are constantly pushing the bounds while White and Blue get shackled.
Can you please continue your constant whining somewhere else? It gets tiring reading the same stuff over and over again without any meat behind it...
Regarding Burn: It won't be a problem with those two cards, something like Price of Progress would push it into the problematic tier. I mean, the same thing (aka huge uptick in Burn) happened when Atarka's Command or Skullcrack got printed and it died down after a few months while the deck still remained competitive.
Also, what is nice about Burn is, that you get rewarded against it by playing actually good (and fair) magic cards. Things like Kitchen Finks or Knight of Autumn are good magic cards, that they somewhat cripple Burn in the process is also something nice . Burn just punishes those, who try to greed to much, same thing as Tron basically, just on the opposite side of the spectrum.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Marvel was too much for Standard, sure. But I didn't know it was "disrupting normal play". It was unfun for sure, and that's because it was banned probably.
It depends on what normal play means in the context of the format. Us modern players are used to a T4 win, but wizards and the standard community probably felt it was too quick and consistent for the format.
I agree. This, though, means that turn 4 kills in standard means disruption of normal play. I thought disruption of normal play was equivalent of timing/logistic issues. This could signify that the disruption of normal play is a broader ban criterion. In other words, it could be an umbrella that hides "unfun to play against", "timing" issues, "too many clicks" issues, "pubic outcry" issues, and/or other issues we still have not predicted, some of which are highly subjective criteria, as Wizards just said.
I do take your point, but at least with many of the bannings there have been quantitative and objective data behind them, ie:
- Nexus allows Bo1 players to abuse the in-game clock, this is bad for the game.
- Eggs makes rounds last too long, especially at GPs/similar
- KCI is too successful by analysing its day 2 and win rate at big events, and also too difficult to interact with
- Aetherworks marvel wins too quickly and consistently for the format the deck is in.
- Smuggler's Copter is too prevalent in the meta, and in hindsight was a design mistake.
I appreciate there have not always been such data driven reasons for bannings.
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Do you have a link to the stream where he 5-0s? I'd like to see the deck move and if it's as resilient as KCI was or if this was just a blitz hiding under the KCI ban.
I scanned over his channel up to a week ago and didn't see anything related to it. Maybe I missed it, maybe it's not up yet. Either way, looks more fair, to be honest. Not being able to abuse mana ability timing helps, and needing 2 cards to get a similar affect as KCI will make it a bit more clunky.
Do you have a link to the stream where he 5-0s? I'd like to see the deck move and if it's as resilient as KCI was or if this was just a blitz hiding under the KCI ban.
This is the link posted from the reddit thread; I haven't watched it myself as of yet so hopefully it's accurate.
To be fair, a 5-0 league isn't really indicative of anything. With enough reps in the non-swiss pairing system, even the clunkiest of decks will eventually 5-0. And with the way 5-0s are reported, it means even less these days.
Though this may be the spark for people picking it up and trying...
ya know i dont need it to be a REAL deck i just need it to be real enough so i cant play the style of deck i like. Id be more than happy if it settled around tier 2 and did big things every now and again.
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Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
If a deck can 5-0, its comfortably Tier 2 to me regardless. I mean I dont know how you feel about power levels, but to even hang with the top decks that I assume he saw play during his 5-0 run, it must pass that power level bar.
Artifacts, Opal, Stirrings? Nearly ensured its power level is 'modern appropriate'.
I'm glad all of you believe that current Burn is managable. I really care about Burn so the fact that it isn't a problem lightens my heart. I was really worried because Skewer really makes the deck that much stronger. Good thing it's so easy to sideboard against.
I'm glad all of you believe that current Burn is managable. I really care about Burn so the fact that it isn't a problem lightens my heart. I was really worried because Skewer really makes the deck that much stronger. Good thing it's so easy to sideboard against.
I don't think it makes it much stronger than versions running Shard Volley. Maybe a few small percentages, getting to run 1 or 2 fewer lands maybe? But it's not like some massive revelation; especially at sorcery speed. It's just a great addition to an already good deck.
I'm glad all of you believe that current Burn is managable. I really care about Burn so the fact that it isn't a problem lightens my heart. I was really worried because Skewer really makes the deck that much stronger. Good thing it's so easy to sideboard against.
sometimes a Burn deck can goldfish people on game 1, but game 2 it's much more manageable. Skewer does not change this situation at all.
I think Burn is one of the best decks in modern, easy to build and it is competitive even if built on a budget - allowing people with shallow wallets to compete in fnm.
Burn is far more annoying in Arena Standard. Unless your playing a white deck of some sort in which case they can fire everything and still loose pretty easily.
On an entirely divergent note, there's so much Burn floating around I've had to add White to my Storm deck. Timely Reinforcements is a heck of a card to buy you a couple turns to combo.
So. Much. Burn.
Doesn't matter whether it's in paper or online.
My LGS went from an average of 0-1 Burn players each week, to almost guaranteed 3-5 players each week. Even I (of all people!) sleeved up Goblin Guides and Lava Spikes a few weeks ago (and ran into multiple main deck Thalia and Knight of Autumn, DOH!). I still don't entirely understand why, but I'll happily warp my main decks to deal with it.
It's one of those decks that every modern player around has but doesn't always bring.
I cannot count the amount of people I heard talking about Emma's SCG articles on why Burn is good lately and so everyone's brought it out of the woodwork. And burn never goes away on MTGO either.
Sephon19: There's nothing wrong with Burn mate. It's a good deck. I just mention it from time to time as I pretty much only play Storm in Modern and the last two decks I want to see across from me are Burn and Shadow. So every time the popularity of those rises I tend to squawk about it a bit. So don't mine me eh.
My LGS went from an average of 0-1 Burn players each week, to almost guaranteed 3-5 players each week. Even I (of all people!) sleeved up Goblin Guides and Lava Spikes a few weeks ago (and ran into multiple main deck Thalia and Knight of Autumn, DOH!). I still don't entirely understand why, but I'll happily warp my main decks to deal with it.
It's one of those decks that every modern player around has but doesn't always bring.
I cannot count the amount of people I heard talking about Emma's SCG articles on why Burn is good lately and so everyone's brought it out of the woodwork. And burn never goes away on MTGO either.
Burn was my first "real" modern deck, after spending a couple bucks trying to upgrade my actual first deck, the BW Tokens event deck. But once I discovered how much I loved blue cards from Jeskai Ascendancy Tokens in Standard, I moved to blue-based decks and never looked back. Still have everything though, and not much has changed. Literally just threw in Skewers and cut the Atarkas Commands, and had to fish my spare fetches from various Commander decks.
The #MTGStrasbourg main event drew over 1,600 players, but side events were packed as well all weekend, the Modern ones in particular.
BG Rock wins the MCQ event, putting 3 copies into the top 8! The Top 8 was rounded out by Dredge, Eldrazi Tron, Five-color Humans, W/U Control, and a fascinating Mono-Red Pyro Prison deck.
interesting top 8. I'm assuming the copies of settle the wreckage in the main of UW over supreme verdict is a nod to dredge and izzet phoenix?
Plus it's asymmetrical and misses Thing. I'm not sure if Settle/Thing is better than JTMS/Terminus overall, but I like the exploration space in UW.
Toronto and these MCQ results are a promising springboard into the March GP run. My biggest worry from a format health perspective would be an abundance of Izzet Phoenix decks. It's the kind of low floor, high ceiling, heavy cantrip proactive deck that pros/spikes/grinders seem to favor, and it has a high baseline MWP to backup that choice. With admittedly limited data, it would be my frontrunner for current "best" Modern deck, but still not quite in the KCI category. Other than that, Modern appears open to any deck (unsurprisingly) and a variety of archetypes (promising, especially with all the interactive deck successes).
an abundance of Izzet Phoenix decks. It's the kind of low floor, high ceiling, heavy cantrip proactive deck that pros/spikes/grinders seem to favor, and it has a high baseline MWP to backup that choice.
Add into that mix that a nonzero number of people craving for a good Steam Vents deck that isn't Storm. It definitely scratches the itch for some of us, even if only for a short while.
Black is Black. Red and Green are constantly pushing the bounds while White and Blue get shackled.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I think in this case, disrupting normal play meant "using the mechanics of arena to hold the game hostage" - did you hear about the streamer who sat opposite someone looping Nexuses (Nexi?) for 2 hours straight, waiting for them to quit? On MTGO, that's no problem. Just F6 until the guy loses. Fine. On Arena, no such luck. That's why the card was a problem and wizards didn't want it staining the new toy.
As for lantern, well, it might take its sweet time, but it at least DOES something on all of those turns.
Marvel was just too much for standard.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
It depends on what normal play means in the context of the format. Us modern players are used to a T4 win, but wizards and the standard community probably felt it was too quick and consistent for the format.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Regarding Burn: It won't be a problem with those two cards, something like Price of Progress would push it into the problematic tier. I mean, the same thing (aka huge uptick in Burn) happened when Atarka's Command or Skullcrack got printed and it died down after a few months while the deck still remained competitive.
Also, what is nice about Burn is, that you get rewarded against it by playing actually good (and fair) magic cards. Things like Kitchen Finks or Knight of Autumn are good magic cards, that they somewhat cripple Burn in the process is also something nice
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I do take your point, but at least with many of the bannings there have been quantitative and objective data behind them, ie:
- Nexus allows Bo1 players to abuse the in-game clock, this is bad for the game.
- Eggs makes rounds last too long, especially at GPs/similar
- KCI is too successful by analysing its day 2 and win rate at big events, and also too difficult to interact with
- Aetherworks marvel wins too quickly and consistently for the format the deck is in.
- Smuggler's Copter is too prevalent in the meta, and in hindsight was a design mistake.
I appreciate there have not always been such data driven reasons for bannings.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
"Reveal a Dragon"
"Reveal a Dragon"
This is the link posted from the reddit thread; I haven't watched it myself as of yet so hopefully it's accurate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/aqx54i/mpl_member_piotr_glogowski_50_with_kci_20/egj5m6m/
Though this may be the spark for people picking it up and trying...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
Artifacts, Opal, Stirrings? Nearly ensured its power level is 'modern appropriate'.
Spirits
I don't think it makes it much stronger than versions running Shard Volley. Maybe a few small percentages, getting to run 1 or 2 fewer lands maybe? But it's not like some massive revelation; especially at sorcery speed. It's just a great addition to an already good deck.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
sometimes a Burn deck can goldfish people on game 1, but game 2 it's much more manageable. Skewer does not change this situation at all.
I think Burn is one of the best decks in modern, easy to build and it is competitive even if built on a budget - allowing people with shallow wallets to compete in fnm.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
It's one of those decks that every modern player around has but doesn't always bring.
I cannot count the amount of people I heard talking about Emma's SCG articles on why Burn is good lately and so everyone's brought it out of the woodwork. And burn never goes away on MTGO either.
Sephon19: There's nothing wrong with Burn mate. It's a good deck. I just mention it from time to time as I pretty much only play Storm in Modern and the last two decks I want to see across from me are Burn and Shadow. So every time the popularity of those rises I tend to squawk about it a bit. So don't mine me eh.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
Burn was my first "real" modern deck, after spending a couple bucks trying to upgrade my actual first deck, the BW Tokens event deck. But once I discovered how much I loved blue cards from Jeskai Ascendancy Tokens in Standard, I moved to blue-based decks and never looked back. Still have everything though, and not much has changed. Literally just threw in Skewers and cut the Atarkas Commands, and had to fish my spare fetches from various Commander decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Nice to see Eldrazi Tron still alive.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
the idea of a format where BG Rock can stick 3 copies in a top8 is exactly the kind of format I want to be playing.
c'mon. Dark confidant and goyf ruling the roost? something must be going right. That's some classic magic right there.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
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StaffPlus it's asymmetrical and misses Thing. I'm not sure if Settle/Thing is better than JTMS/Terminus overall, but I like the exploration space in UW.
Toronto and these MCQ results are a promising springboard into the March GP run. My biggest worry from a format health perspective would be an abundance of Izzet Phoenix decks. It's the kind of low floor, high ceiling, heavy cantrip proactive deck that pros/spikes/grinders seem to favor, and it has a high baseline MWP to backup that choice. With admittedly limited data, it would be my frontrunner for current "best" Modern deck, but still not quite in the KCI category. Other than that, Modern appears open to any deck (unsurprisingly) and a variety of archetypes (promising, especially with all the interactive deck successes).
Add into that mix that a nonzero number of people craving for a good Steam Vents deck that isn't Storm. It definitely scratches the itch for some of us, even if only for a short while.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate