I think you are simply not acknowledging the shift since Guilds.
It's difficult to say when a hate card and it's answer are 2 of the most popular competitive cards, that things are good.
PS: Modern remains diverse and popular, and you are encouraged to master your deck and understand your own match ups!
You also get total free choice over which decks you want to lose to! Artifacts? Enchantments? Big creatures? Little creatures? Hexproof creatures? Board wipes? Spot removal? Graveyard stuff? Spell combo? Creature combo? Counterspells? So many choices! So few sideboard slots! Better just play something fast and hope to dodge hate.
Wow, this thread is toxic. People are taking what ktkenshinx posted way too personally.
In my opinion, I strongly believe there is plenty of users who read this thread on a regular basis but are intimidated from posting due to their opinions being contrary to the predominately Pro-Twin narrative here, hence this thread reads like some passive-aggressive echo chamber at times.
If you are that unhappy with the game than just quit. You are not doing yourself a good, and you'll probably alienating people who would at one time be willing to listen.
I've played a lot of GDS over the past few years and recently picked it back up because I got sick of randomly losing with UW. Two FNMs ago, I had mediocre matchups with wonky GY combo and aggro decks. Had some lackluster draws and stumbled to a 1-3 night. Last FNM, I ran 2 main deck Surgical and 4 SB Leyline and never faced a GY deck. Instead I beat up on a bunch of fair creature decks, with the only loss to a super explosive Burning Tree/Bushwhacker start game 3. My draws were amazing, my opponents had limited meaningful interaction, and I frequently killed on or before turn 4.
1) Standard is good for the first time in 3 years, and many players now see what a good and healthy format can be. The veil is lifted on many of the problems in Modern that have always been there, and have mostly gotten worse in recent years.
2) Diversity doesn't necessarily mean "health." It's unfortunate though that WOTC believes that diversity = health, even if that "diversity" is 31 flavors of linear decks, for the most part.
I have never once said that Modern is unpopular or in trouble.
While this doesn't use the exact words, I can't fail someone for believing that's what this post says. That's certainly how I took it.
Do you have an issue with the post I made? Do you disagree and provide support for that disagreement? Did anything I said have anything to do with popularity or trouble?
If you have an ax to grind, at least be upfront about it. And if you are just going to be annoyingly coy, without a real point, at least do so with some class.
In what way am I being coy? That makes no sense to me. Are you sure you know what it means?
The post I quoted was you responding to another post which began with:
On another note, when did this seething hatred for Modern start to become popular opinion? Started my third year of med school this Fall, so I've been MIA for a few months from the game. Last I remember most folks agreed that the format was more diverse and as healthy as its ever been; has Dredge really been that bad or have there been other precipitating factors?
So yes, it has everything to do with popularity. Someone asked why it's currently popular to ***** on Modern. You responded with the most lopsided nonsense I've seen since Twin talk.
And why would I feel the need to respond to a post which is obviously nothing but personal opinion by providing support?
People are taking what ktkenshinx posted way too personally..
Considering he chose to personally call me out, how should I take it?
PS: There are adjustments fair decks can make to see success in Modern, if one understands the meta.
I'm always going to call out unsupported claims about Modern health. That has always been the case in this thread. If a poster makes those claims, I will personally call them out for those claims and quote them. This does not mean you should take the call-out personally. We can have a reasonable debate about the content of posts without anyone taking it personally.
PS: There are adjustments fair decks can make to see success in Modern, if one understands the meta.
This, all of this, ive skated around the meta for 3 years either playing jank that is good or making odd changes to tier decks. And overall ive done quite well for myself, i bought into fish for like $250 and only paid like 3 entry fees before the credit train started rolling pretty well. Went from fish to infect to affinity to bloo to Mardu Nahiri to BG Eldrazi and finally have settled on burn and its variants for almost a year now
These days i only play MTGO, and im finding huge success in mono-red burn. Creeping chill doesnt hurt as much without fetches/shocks/eidolon to screw your day up. Sometimes adapting to the meta requires you to think outside the box
Jund
GDS
Jeskai Control
Izzet Phoenix
Jeskai Control
Mono R Phoenix
UW Control
KCI
Even on its own, this is clearly a very diverse, interactive, and healthy T8. Given the Day 2 results, however, it's even better because it shows over-performance by decks that were relatively underplayed, and underperformance by the most-played strategies. I suspect Modern critics will point to SCG being an abnormal "big FNM" event as a reason to discredit these results and/or to assert that it's just one event that we can't extrapolate from, to claim top players just played what they wanted and not what is best, etc. This does not undermine the more reasonable argument, which I will make, that Modern arcs towards stability and adaptation over time across multiple events. This has been the case over the last 2.5 years in every period of format evolution, and I don't expect that to change unless we see a really bad GP Portland that might suggest a more sustained issue.
Even on its own, this is clearly a very diverse, interactive, and healthy T8. Given the Day 2 results, however, it's even better because it shows over-performance by decks that were relatively underplayed, and underperformance by the most-played strategies.
Thats better than i expected, but man, dredge is a nightmare with creeping chill. Something will have to be done to reel it back because its just a beast overall
Even on its own, this is clearly a very diverse, interactive, and healthy T8. Given the Day 2 results, however, it's even better because it shows over-performance by decks that were relatively underplayed, and underperformance by the most-played strategies.
Thats better than i expected, but man, dredge is a nightmare with creeping chill. Something will have to be done to reel it back because its just a beast overall
Agreed that Dredge could remain an issue. Stuff like MD RIP on MTGO creates lots of concern. Also, GGT got banned for the "Battle of sideboards" issue during a period where Dredge did not do particularly well at a T8 GP perspective. It was largely an MTGO issue by all indications. This suggests that Chill and Dredge could be comparable issues today even if we don't see them as such in T8s. If so, we could see a Dredge-targeted ban in the next round of updates. This would likely be on something like Stinkweed or Chill, i.e. a limited focus ban on just a Dredge issue. It is unlikely that this would be on Looting, as it would affect decks that aren't doing anything wrong.
Not surprise midrange is doing poorly with how the meta is right now. I hope that KCI either eats a ban or they print better hate and unban certain cards. No not twin. Not really ever wanting that card back, I'd rather have a 5 cost enchantment first
Even on its own, this is clearly a very diverse, interactive, and healthy T8. Given the Day 2 results, however, it's even better because it shows over-performance by decks that were relatively underplayed, and underperformance by the most-played strategies.
Thats better than i expected, but man, dredge is a nightmare with creeping chill. Something will have to be done to reel it back because its just a beast overall
Agreed that Dredge could remain an issue. Stuff like MD RIP on MTGO creates lots of concern. Also, GGT got banned for the "Battle of sideboards" issue during a period where Dredge did not do particularly well at a T8 GP perspective. It was largely an MTGO issue by all indications. This suggests that Chill and Dredge could be comparable issues today even if we don't see them as such in T8s. If so, we could see a Dredge-targeted ban in the next round of updates. This would likely be on something like Stinkweed or Chill, i.e. a limited focus ban on just a Dredge issue. It is unlikely that this would be on Looting, as it would affect decks that aren't doing anything wrong.
I feel like banning stinkweed is the end of dredge, but i do think they could get away with banning thug without killing the deck. Chill is the obvious choice though imho
Even on its own, this is clearly a very diverse, interactive, and healthy T8. Given the Day 2 results, however, it's even better because it shows over-performance by decks that were relatively underplayed, and underperformance by the most-played strategies.
Thats better than i expected, but man, dredge is a nightmare with creeping chill. Something will have to be done to reel it back because its just a beast overall
Agreed that Dredge could remain an issue. Stuff like MD RIP on MTGO creates lots of concern. Also, GGT got banned for the "Battle of sideboards" issue during a period where Dredge did not do particularly well at a T8 GP perspective. It was largely an MTGO issue by all indications. This suggests that Chill and Dredge could be comparable issues today even if we don't see them as such in T8s. If so, we could see a Dredge-targeted ban in the next round of updates. This would likely be on something like Stinkweed or Chill, i.e. a limited focus ban on just a Dredge issue. It is unlikely that this would be on Looting, as it would affect decks that aren't doing anything wrong.
I feel like banning stinkweed is the end of dredge, but i do think they could get away with banning thug without killing the deck. Chill is the obvious choice though imho
Chill and Dredge are interesting cases. On the one hand, Dredge was mostly fine pre-Chill and a bit of an issue (potentially) after. This makes Chill a sensible and focused target, because you can effectively undo the damage its done with a targeted ban. On the other hand, Wizards dealt with a similar issue with GGT and Reunion/Neonate/Amalgam/etc. In that case, they explicitly said those kinds of enablers weren't the problem; the dredge mechanic itself was the problem. Then they banned GGT. By a similar logic, they might just go after more dredgers and be done with it.
Chill and Dredge are interesting cases. On the one hand, Dredge was mostly fine pre-Chill and a bit of an issue (potentially) after. This makes Chill a sensible and focused target, because you can effectively undo the damage its done with a targeted ban. On the other hand, Wizards dealt with a similar issue with GGT and Reunion/Neonate/Amalgam/etc. In that case, they explicitly said those kinds of enablers weren't the problem; the dredge mechanic itself was the problem. Then they banned GGT. By a similar logic, they might just go after more dredgers and be done with it.
Could dredge survive completely losing a dredger in something nerfed wasnt printed to take its place? like ban stinkweed and print another dredge 4 thats playable? Dredge is a deck i genuinely enjoy in the meta most of the time, and i was of the opinion that banning GGT was the wrong move anyways
I always thought Prized Amalgam was the only issue card in dredge, as it put too much power on the board too quickly if your dredges were lucky enough.
But ever since Grave-Troll was rebanned I can only imagine that Stinkweed Imp would be the next appropriate target.
Wow, this thread is toxic. People are taking what ktkenshinx posted way too personally.
In my opinion, I strongly believe there is plenty of users who read this thread on a regular basis but are intimidated from posting due to their opinions being contrary to the predominately Pro-Twin narrative here, hence this thread reads like some passive-aggressive echo chamber at times.
If you are that unhappy with the game than just quit. You are not doing yourself a good, and you'll probably alienating people who would at one time be willing to listen.
if you think this is toxic you havent been to many game forums or other outlets for public opinion. there is a difference between passion and truly toxic behavior such as flaming, trolling, and or extensive $@!%posting.
if anything id say its elitism, biased towards certain strategies, that plagues these forums or threads, which also manifests in community perception in general. i think it stems from something real, because not all decks or matchups are equally skill testing or 'fun'. likewise not all states of the format, be it the scope of the current cycle or philosophy on what constitutes a good format are equally 'healthy'.
blue players are notorious for doing this; the same for pros. maybe it has to do with the psychological profile of those drawn to certain playstyles or gameplay elements, but i digress. having an open mind about something you are heavily invested in, especially something recreational/optional, is increasingly difficult the longer you take part in it. call it an aversion to change or whatever you want, but the way i see it twin proponents like idsurge and cfusionpm experienced something they enjoyed that was likely to stick around based on historical evidence, then for reasons outside of their control it was taken away. then the format itself shifted away.
different people have different expectations of the game or format. we see it all the time among pros. they are inclined to enjoy formats that many people otherwise wouldnt, because their motivations to play the game are different. i just wish there was more acknowledgement of a middle ground. systems like MTG formats arent zero sum.
personally im more inclined to examine elements of modern that existed during twin's legality rather than caring about the card itself. for example, and ive said this many times, i believe too much diversity is a bad thing. in lieu of narrowing the field through bans i believe that injecting more consistency into modern decks serves the same purpose. more generic answers and more tools to find answers. make decks focusing on a single concerted strategy more of a riskier proposition but still effective if given a specific field. right now its the other way around. flexible but lower powered decks incur more risk trying to read a meta that doesnt exist.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Very diverse Top 8. 2 Pro's showing their skills on UWR.
PS: Practice on your chosen Archetype is probably more important than chasing the 'best deck' in Modern.
Also, as Brad Nelson showed on camera twice, just be sure to have your opponent mulligan and draw all your sideboard cards on time!
But it's more that you don't like Brad Nelson
2 Phoenix decks in the finals, don't think many people saw that coming.
I certainly haven't. Im not a huge believer in the card but to be fair it's also just not my type of card. But it certainly gets a ton of other people brewing with it. That's for sure.
Very diverse Top 8. 2 Pro's showing their skills on UWR.
PS: Practice on your chosen Archetype is probably more important than chasing the 'best deck' in Modern.
Also, as Brad Nelson showed on camera twice, just be sure to have your opponent mulligan and draw all your sideboard cards on time!
Edit: BTW, Miriam's UR Phoenix looks absolutely delicious.
He still won all those off camera games to make it in the top 8...
I mean, it's also two top caliber players who are a cut above SCG grinders.
The top 8 was surprisingly an interactive bunch, it's odd seeing those results with how ugly the day 2 meta looked.
Can we completely just blame dredge for the battle of the sideboard issue? We have a TON of graveyard decks, to the point that 4x Leyline isn't unreasonable. Would we really be laying off the sideboard if not for dredge? If dredge eats a ban, it shouldn't be chill. The actual mechanic is a toxic, mistake of a design. Modern is never better off when it's at the top.
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I think you are simply not acknowledging the shift since Guilds.
It's difficult to say when a hate card and it's answer are 2 of the most popular competitive cards, that things are good.
PS: Modern remains diverse and popular, and you are encouraged to master your deck and understand your own match ups!
Spirits
You also get total free choice over which decks you want to lose to! Artifacts? Enchantments? Big creatures? Little creatures? Hexproof creatures? Board wipes? Spot removal? Graveyard stuff? Spell combo? Creature combo? Counterspells? So many choices! So few sideboard slots! Better just play something fast and hope to dodge hate.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In my opinion, I strongly believe there is plenty of users who read this thread on a regular basis but are intimidated from posting due to their opinions being contrary to the predominately Pro-Twin narrative here, hence this thread reads like some passive-aggressive echo chamber at times.
If you are that unhappy with the game than just quit. You are not doing yourself a good, and you'll probably alienating people who would at one time be willing to listen.
Considering he chose to personally call me out, how should I take it?
PS: There are adjustments fair decks can make to see success in Modern, if one understands the meta.
Spirits
Day2:
Bant Spirits – 14
Mono-Green Tron – 13
Ironworks – 11
Humans – 9
Infect – 9
Hardened+Scales – 9
Izzet Phoenix – 8
Burn – 7
Jund – 5
Jeskai Control – 5
Grixis Death’s Shadow – 4
Hollow+One – 4
Dredge – 4
...
Full list:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/4482_day_2_metagame_breakdown.html
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I've played a lot of GDS over the past few years and recently picked it back up because I got sick of randomly losing with UW. Two FNMs ago, I had mediocre matchups with wonky GY combo and aggro decks. Had some lackluster draws and stumbled to a 1-3 night. Last FNM, I ran 2 main deck Surgical and 4 SB Leyline and never faced a GY deck. Instead I beat up on a bunch of fair creature decks, with the only loss to a super explosive Burning Tree/Bushwhacker start game 3. My draws were amazing, my opponents had limited meaningful interaction, and I frequently killed on or before turn 4.
That's Modern, IMO.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
PS: All archetypes see success in Modern.
Spirits
The post I quoted was you responding to another post which began with:
So yes, it has everything to do with popularity. Someone asked why it's currently popular to ***** on Modern. You responded with the most lopsided nonsense I've seen since Twin talk.
And why would I feel the need to respond to a post which is obviously nothing but personal opinion by providing support?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I'm always going to call out unsupported claims about Modern health. That has always been the case in this thread. If a poster makes those claims, I will personally call them out for those claims and quote them. This does not mean you should take the call-out personally. We can have a reasonable debate about the content of posts without anyone taking it personally.
This, all of this, ive skated around the meta for 3 years either playing jank that is good or making odd changes to tier decks. And overall ive done quite well for myself, i bought into fish for like $250 and only paid like 3 entry fees before the credit train started rolling pretty well. Went from fish to infect to affinity to bloo to Mardu Nahiri to BG Eldrazi and finally have settled on burn and its variants for almost a year now
These days i only play MTGO, and im finding huge success in mono-red burn. Creeping chill doesnt hurt as much without fetches/shocks/eidolon to screw your day up. Sometimes adapting to the meta requires you to think outside the box
Jund
GDS
Jeskai Control
Izzet Phoenix
Jeskai Control
Mono R Phoenix
UW Control
KCI
Even on its own, this is clearly a very diverse, interactive, and healthy T8. Given the Day 2 results, however, it's even better because it shows over-performance by decks that were relatively underplayed, and underperformance by the most-played strategies. I suspect Modern critics will point to SCG being an abnormal "big FNM" event as a reason to discredit these results and/or to assert that it's just one event that we can't extrapolate from, to claim top players just played what they wanted and not what is best, etc. This does not undermine the more reasonable argument, which I will make, that Modern arcs towards stability and adaptation over time across multiple events. This has been the case over the last 2.5 years in every period of format evolution, and I don't expect that to change unless we see a really bad GP Portland that might suggest a more sustained issue.
Thats better than i expected, but man, dredge is a nightmare with creeping chill. Something will have to be done to reel it back because its just a beast overall
Agreed that Dredge could remain an issue. Stuff like MD RIP on MTGO creates lots of concern. Also, GGT got banned for the "Battle of sideboards" issue during a period where Dredge did not do particularly well at a T8 GP perspective. It was largely an MTGO issue by all indications. This suggests that Chill and Dredge could be comparable issues today even if we don't see them as such in T8s. If so, we could see a Dredge-targeted ban in the next round of updates. This would likely be on something like Stinkweed or Chill, i.e. a limited focus ban on just a Dredge issue. It is unlikely that this would be on Looting, as it would affect decks that aren't doing anything wrong.
I feel like banning stinkweed is the end of dredge, but i do think they could get away with banning thug without killing the deck. Chill is the obvious choice though imho
Chill and Dredge are interesting cases. On the one hand, Dredge was mostly fine pre-Chill and a bit of an issue (potentially) after. This makes Chill a sensible and focused target, because you can effectively undo the damage its done with a targeted ban. On the other hand, Wizards dealt with a similar issue with GGT and Reunion/Neonate/Amalgam/etc. In that case, they explicitly said those kinds of enablers weren't the problem; the dredge mechanic itself was the problem. Then they banned GGT. By a similar logic, they might just go after more dredgers and be done with it.
Could dredge survive completely losing a dredger in something nerfed wasnt printed to take its place? like ban stinkweed and print another dredge 4 thats playable? Dredge is a deck i genuinely enjoy in the meta most of the time, and i was of the opinion that banning GGT was the wrong move anyways
But ever since Grave-Troll was rebanned I can only imagine that Stinkweed Imp would be the next appropriate target.
Nice seeing two phoenix decks and uw control in the top 8.
One of the phoenix decks is even mono R, I guess it just aggroed it way to the top 8.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
if anything id say its elitism, biased towards certain strategies, that plagues these forums or threads, which also manifests in community perception in general. i think it stems from something real, because not all decks or matchups are equally skill testing or 'fun'. likewise not all states of the format, be it the scope of the current cycle or philosophy on what constitutes a good format are equally 'healthy'.
blue players are notorious for doing this; the same for pros. maybe it has to do with the psychological profile of those drawn to certain playstyles or gameplay elements, but i digress. having an open mind about something you are heavily invested in, especially something recreational/optional, is increasingly difficult the longer you take part in it. call it an aversion to change or whatever you want, but the way i see it twin proponents like idsurge and cfusionpm experienced something they enjoyed that was likely to stick around based on historical evidence, then for reasons outside of their control it was taken away. then the format itself shifted away.
different people have different expectations of the game or format. we see it all the time among pros. they are inclined to enjoy formats that many people otherwise wouldnt, because their motivations to play the game are different. i just wish there was more acknowledgement of a middle ground. systems like MTG formats arent zero sum.
personally im more inclined to examine elements of modern that existed during twin's legality rather than caring about the card itself. for example, and ive said this many times, i believe too much diversity is a bad thing. in lieu of narrowing the field through bans i believe that injecting more consistency into modern decks serves the same purpose. more generic answers and more tools to find answers. make decks focusing on a single concerted strategy more of a riskier proposition but still effective if given a specific field. right now its the other way around. flexible but lower powered decks incur more risk trying to read a meta that doesnt exist.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)PS: Practice on your chosen Archetype is probably more important than chasing the 'best deck' in Modern.
Spirits
Also, as Brad Nelson showed on camera twice, just be sure to have your opponent mulligan and draw all your sideboard cards on time!
Edit: BTW, Miriam's UR Phoenix looks absolutely delicious.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
2 Phoenix decks in the finals, don't think many people saw that coming.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I certainly haven't. Im not a huge believer in the card but to be fair it's also just not my type of card. But it certainly gets a ton of other people brewing with it. That's for sure.
He still won all those off camera games to make it in the top 8...
I mean, it's also two top caliber players who are a cut above SCG grinders.
The top 8 was surprisingly an interactive bunch, it's odd seeing those results with how ugly the day 2 meta looked.
Can we completely just blame dredge for the battle of the sideboard issue? We have a TON of graveyard decks, to the point that 4x Leyline isn't unreasonable. Would we really be laying off the sideboard if not for dredge? If dredge eats a ban, it shouldn't be chill. The actual mechanic is a toxic, mistake of a design. Modern is never better off when it's at the top.