I look at lines of play. If you are attempting to slow/kill/disrupt aggro, only to then land your own threat and ride that to victory, while being theoretically soft to Control? You are midrange.
Thats just me though. I had my fill of caring about this stuff too deeply when we had pages of 'thats not real control' years ago.
I was stressing my opinion that midrange isn’t viable at all.
Don't take this the wrong way, but if your opinion is so one-sided as to be "X isn't viable at all" and you start having to mess around with people's definitions of a word for your opinion to viable, it's a problematic view. Your actual view may be more realistic, but the words you are using are 'extremifying' it, to the extent that you've almost proven yourself wrong by definition. It doesn't allow for discussion, there's no compromise, no room for talk, you've not even given any room for your expressed view to be incorrect in the slightest.
As soon as a single midrange deck hits a top 8 anywhere in the world, your 0-100% opinion suddenly gets nulled the heck out.
Hyperbole just makes it easier to be disproven, even if it feels like it backs you up or makes a more more intense.
Advice: pull back on the extreme view about midrange. Settle on something more moderate like "it's not favoured right now" which is far easier to discuss and less easy to disprove. (and I think we'd all agree with you)
Oh and I think it's been satisfactorily shown that grixis death's shadow is at least partly midrange in its game-plan. There are no easily defined decks. Everything has a bit of everything. Stop trying to square-peg-round-hole and you'll probably find people here friendlier and more amenable to your views.
Except the view given to me was that the top 8 of the event was nice and healthy. I said as in no midrange decks ever. That was followed by the statement that 2 top 8’d and I believe that to be far from true. Midrange isn’t good right now and gds just isn’t a midrange deck, sorry but it’s just not. Mardu and gbx just isn’t a viable strategy right now. I’m not taking an extreme view I’m taking a realistic one. I play tons of modern decks, this isn’t a my deck isn’t good thing this is an archetype isn’t good thing. BBE and trophy haven’t been enough to bring midrange back. Mardu was great for about a month but it just can’t compete right now either. This was all a response to the top 8 being healthy but I personally think it was/is missing midrange being viable. Maybe gds can be midrange but that’s not how it’s winning it’s winning being tempo and aggro control.
Edit: and yes my post was supposed to say that’s all not at all but that’s beside the point.
I look at lines of play. If you are attempting to slow/kill/disrupt aggro, only to then land your own threat and ride that to victory, while being theoretically soft to Control? You are midrange.
Thats just me though. I had my fill of caring about this stuff too deeply when we had pages of 'thats not real control' years ago.
Ah, that makes sense. I didn't think of it that way. Paying closer attention to lines of play, I think aggro-control, Midrange, and Tempo all fit the description you just provided.
I agree with KTrojan that Midrange is not doing too hot at the moment. I do also realize that it is important not to speak in absolutes, as some GB pilots have found some success recently. I personally am of the notion that Mardu Pyromancer is just not a good deck. I feel like it fits the definition of a clear 40/60 to 45/55 deck and that's not where you want to be in Modern.
Phoenix is very strong, but I don't think it is more of a problem than KCI. It is easier to play than KCI, which means that the deck will be played in droves, but it certainly is beatable. I feel that some of the ways people beat it is by having removal for Thing in the Ice and Mr. Crackles with some incidental grave hate for Phoenix. Many decks can race 1 or 2 Phoenix. Well, I should say that most non Midrange/Control decks can race those Phoenix(es). Phoenix also has few win-cons, so occasionally these run out via Surgical Extraction. You could also be a deck that isn't devastated by having its creatures bounced, like Tron or Control. Burn and Martyr Proc do well vs. Phoenix. There are ways to beat it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yeah there are ways to beat it, certainly, but we in this thread tend to look at it from the position of the REALLY committed players, who will just jump to deck X to beat Y.
Thats not how Modern works. The last 3 years of SCG results in particular have proved that, heck, last year proved that.
I predict Phoenix will run people over again next event, with dramatic # of placing's in the top 16-32.
Arclight Phoenix decks remind me of the original Affinity aggro decks from Mirrodin Standard. Easy to learn, fast, and aggressive. Although of course, Phoenix decks don't really overrun modern like what Affinity did with Mirrodin Standard long ago.
I've never played against a KCI deck, but based on what I'm seeing here on the forum and after carefully looking at how KCI works.. I would still prefer a meta of phoenix than a meta of KCI. Phoenix is aggro, and I've had plenty of "practice" with aggro because of Hollow One.
IMO there is a sort of homogenization of the "consistently strong" decks in modern: creature driven (duh) and exploiting some axis (dredge, cycling, affinity, instants, life loss, what have you)to make the plays off curve, free etc. All the other types have had more or less time in the spotlight, but this type almost never wanes, in whatever deck it shows up at any given time. Midrange needs a nice mix of powerful cards and a semblance of a "fair" Magic playing field to click, Control is purposefully not supported with the kind of cards it really needs to be consistently present in the top and Combo is undesirable as a dominating form of play.
This is what players wanted (the grey surveyed masses, eh?) and what the game has been crafted to be.
The nice thing about modern is that everything is playable and can do reasonably well. The bad thing, in my eyes, is the existence of a dominating playstyle - but this is because I personally dislike it. I would find a deck like Phoenix boring to play after a few tries (well, any deck with a more or less rigid game plan).
I dont think you are alone in that. With playing it in Standard already to a degree, I only had it going for about a week. Its simply doing its thing, very consistently, over and over.
Don't get me wrong, I'm always amazed at the refined way the decks are put together. Linear ones too. It's really an art. I couldn't do it. The players really do the best they can with what they're given.
But Magic has built a box of hard coded rules around itself in order to deliver a consistent product (consistent return on investment I mean), and the artificial limitations imposed on the game for that purpose are glaring in every standard set. They're glaring in Modern too, although less than in Standard. Super obvious in Blue card design for example. Design permutations are only allowed within these rules and straying from the path is rare.
Inevitably, the game has lost some of the wild swings and creative lunacy of old. I've stopped expecting crazy stories from tournaments and silly winning decks a long time ago (although they do pop up once in a blue moon). It has also sacrificed a lot of its charm (I find a lot of the art now depressingly homogenous and tacky, but that's just me - and the flavor text has arguably never been worse) along the way, just to keep the money churning. It used to be a funky game made by fantasy geeks for other geeks, nowadays it's more of a slick corporate e-sport tuned to dig the gold and work without fail.
I'm not complaining though, not really. I lost all interest in Standard other than as a card pool for Modern, specifically Blue Tron. I won't bother with any other deck, just update the one I have, don't invest or support WotC really in any direct way. That's just the way it is - maybe things change somewhere down the road, maybe not.
i dunno i think you are giving wotc too much credit. sure it could be some grand plan to homogenize game play, or it could be that the game is 25 years old and its just more difficult to craft 'new' game experiences. this is true for pretty much any creative works. over time its just more likely that something is going to be a derived from something else, or at least a variation; intentional or not.
as for deck creativity, that can also be attributed to external factors. the surprises, or lunacy as you put it, is just less likely where formats are functionally 'solved' through crowdsourcing. there is more information, its distributed more widely, and its disseminated more quickly. this is especially true if, for some reason, a format booms in popularity/visibility. by the accounts ive seen, legacy was more 'wild west' until SCG started to feature more tournaments more regularly. scg stopped supporting legacy as heavily and instead pushed modern, even moreso than standard. it stands to reason that this would impact how the format is viewed and evolves.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm dubious of it, that user has only posted 3 comments in the past year, and then posts this. Maybe it's just an alt account because his main one gives away his mtgo account name, but still seems suspicious.
Besides that, you know what card would be amazing to have in Modern with all these graveyard recursion creatures they keep printing? Containment Priest... like seriously, why is this not in Modern yet?
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Hopefully at least one other person can confirm this. It feels strange that the beta went down yesterday and this is the first post after it goes down so no one else can check and confirm this. I'm very on the fence if this is real or not
I mean, I do think SFM gets unbanned sometime in the first half of this year, but I don't know if I trust that post. It might end up being right, though, even if that post is a hoax.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I am curious on where they print SFM and some weapons though.
any number of cards or decks may have to be dealt with eventually. the question is whether kci has passed that threshold now.
with what information we have, that has been gathered by dedicated individuals and looking at past decisions, we can only determined that it is more likely kci is a problem. regardless it is still a borderline case that can only really be determined by what additional information wizards has, and their yet to be revealed motivations and intentions for modern.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Yeah, which is why I say that it might be a hoax, but it might ultimately end up being right. I was pretty firmly "no bans" for a long time, but some of the recent GP data, besides the x4 top 8 showing, changed my mind. The fact that Matt Nass has like an 80% win rate with the deck, and it had like a 65% win rate overall across a couple GPs, is pretty alarming. It reminds me a lot of Amulet Bloom, where it was a very difficult deck to learn, but it was the best deck in the format once you did.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
the price of the GP promo on tcgplayer has risen more in the last 2 hours than it has in the last week (yeah i have been checking it regularly out of curiosity).
thats why those kinda 'proof' posts are always so suspect yet continually show up. there is a legitimate and tangible motive to incite panic buying/selling.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
So tired of those posts getting made to Reddit and/or shared on social media. I disproved the last one about Ensnaring Bridge and it looks like this one is just as fraudulent. Posts like that just increase ban mania, uncertainty during an already uncertain period, distrust, and misinformation. They are terrible for the community and I wish Reddit was more responsible in shutting down or editing such information once it has clearly been proven false.
I'll also add that information consumers have a responsibility to be more discriminating. It takes about 15 seconds of running this through any free photo forensic software to identify glaring signs of a faked screenshot. It literally says it's a photoshopped image in the metadata. I don't know about you, but I don't run my screenshots through photoshop before posting them.
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Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
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Thats just me though. I had my fill of caring about this stuff too deeply when we had pages of 'thats not real control' years ago.
Spirits
Except the view given to me was that the top 8 of the event was nice and healthy. I said as in no midrange decks ever. That was followed by the statement that 2 top 8’d and I believe that to be far from true. Midrange isn’t good right now and gds just isn’t a midrange deck, sorry but it’s just not. Mardu and gbx just isn’t a viable strategy right now. I’m not taking an extreme view I’m taking a realistic one. I play tons of modern decks, this isn’t a my deck isn’t good thing this is an archetype isn’t good thing. BBE and trophy haven’t been enough to bring midrange back. Mardu was great for about a month but it just can’t compete right now either. This was all a response to the top 8 being healthy but I personally think it was/is missing midrange being viable. Maybe gds can be midrange but that’s not how it’s winning it’s winning being tempo and aggro control.
Edit: and yes my post was supposed to say that’s all not at all but that’s beside the point.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Aggro Control? Humans, Merfolk, Spirits.
Midrange? BGx, Mardu, GDS
Tempo? Delver, RUG Grow, UR Wizards.
To me, there's enough distinction here to split these up like that.
Not everyone agrees, and honestly it's mostly irrelevant as without consensus, the labels are meaningless.
That said? I didn't find it a healthy Top 8. I think Phoenix is too much, and I find Modern super unhealthy by my PERSONAL definition.
Spirits
Phoenix is very strong, but I don't think it is more of a problem than KCI. It is easier to play than KCI, which means that the deck will be played in droves, but it certainly is beatable. I feel that some of the ways people beat it is by having removal for Thing in the Ice and Mr. Crackles with some incidental grave hate for Phoenix. Many decks can race 1 or 2 Phoenix. Well, I should say that most non Midrange/Control decks can race those Phoenix(es). Phoenix also has few win-cons, so occasionally these run out via Surgical Extraction. You could also be a deck that isn't devastated by having its creatures bounced, like Tron or Control. Burn and Martyr Proc do well vs. Phoenix. There are ways to beat it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Thats not how Modern works. The last 3 years of SCG results in particular have proved that, heck, last year proved that.
I predict Phoenix will run people over again next event, with dramatic # of placing's in the top 16-32.
Spirits
I've never played against a KCI deck, but based on what I'm seeing here on the forum and after carefully looking at how KCI works.. I would still prefer a meta of phoenix than a meta of KCI. Phoenix is aggro, and I've had plenty of "practice" with aggro because of Hollow One.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Spirits
This is what players wanted (the grey surveyed masses, eh?) and what the game has been crafted to be.
The nice thing about modern is that everything is playable and can do reasonably well. The bad thing, in my eyes, is the existence of a dominating playstyle - but this is because I personally dislike it. I would find a deck like Phoenix boring to play after a few tries (well, any deck with a more or less rigid game plan).
Same reason I cannot play Storm really.
Spirits
But Magic has built a box of hard coded rules around itself in order to deliver a consistent product (consistent return on investment I mean), and the artificial limitations imposed on the game for that purpose are glaring in every standard set. They're glaring in Modern too, although less than in Standard. Super obvious in Blue card design for example. Design permutations are only allowed within these rules and straying from the path is rare.
Inevitably, the game has lost some of the wild swings and creative lunacy of old. I've stopped expecting crazy stories from tournaments and silly winning decks a long time ago (although they do pop up once in a blue moon). It has also sacrificed a lot of its charm (I find a lot of the art now depressingly homogenous and tacky, but that's just me - and the flavor text has arguably never been worse) along the way, just to keep the money churning. It used to be a funky game made by fantasy geeks for other geeks, nowadays it's more of a slick corporate e-sport tuned to dig the gold and work without fail.
I'm not complaining though, not really. I lost all interest in Standard other than as a card pool for Modern, specifically Blue Tron. I won't bother with any other deck, just update the one I have, don't invest or support WotC really in any direct way. That's just the way it is - maybe things change somewhere down the road, maybe not.
as for deck creativity, that can also be attributed to external factors. the surprises, or lunacy as you put it, is just less likely where formats are functionally 'solved' through crowdsourcing. there is more information, its distributed more widely, and its disseminated more quickly. this is especially true if, for some reason, a format booms in popularity/visibility. by the accounts ive seen, legacy was more 'wild west' until SCG started to feature more tournaments more regularly. scg stopped supporting legacy as heavily and instead pushed modern, even moreso than standard. it stands to reason that this would impact how the format is viewed and evolves.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Relevant link to reddit.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Besides that, you know what card would be amazing to have in Modern with all these graveyard recursion creatures they keep printing? Containment Priest... like seriously, why is this not in Modern yet?
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I am curious on where they print SFM and some weapons though.
Ah, this gives me a little hope that SFM would be unbanned in 21.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
with what information we have, that has been gathered by dedicated individuals and looking at past decisions, we can only determined that it is more likely kci is a problem. regardless it is still a borderline case that can only really be determined by what additional information wizards has, and their yet to be revealed motivations and intentions for modern.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
thats why those kinda 'proof' posts are always so suspect yet continually show up. there is a legitimate and tangible motive to incite panic buying/selling.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'm not running to the store to buy a playset of SFM right now, but if that image was confirmed as being legitimate I might have.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'll also add that information consumers have a responsibility to be more discriminating. It takes about 15 seconds of running this through any free photo forensic software to identify glaring signs of a faked screenshot. It literally says it's a photoshopped image in the metadata. I don't know about you, but I don't run my screenshots through photoshop before posting them.