Traditionally, tempo decks deploy threats and then protect the threats and/or disrupt the opponent while the threat wins. Midrange decks tend to disrupt first and then deploy threats on a safe board, although some will still seek to protect a deployed threat later. See the difference between traditional Delver builds (T1 Delver/Swiftspear, hold up protection/removal) and old school BGx (T1 DS into T2 removal/Bob into T3 Lily into a clock). GDS can certainly role-shift in matchups, but it's more fundamentally a midrange deck than a tempo deck.
So traditionally gds is tempo. That’s why it plays stubborn denial to protect its big threat it played on t2. Gds isn’t midrange imo.
Honestly I hate that people are starting to list GDS as midrange now when it isn't a traditional midrange decks and swings more to the tempo side. It makes the format look like midrange actually has a presence when it really doesn't
Traditionally, tempo decks deploy threats and then protect the threats and/or disrupt the opponent while the threat wins. Midrange decks tend to disrupt first and then deploy threats on a safe board, although some will still seek to protect a deployed threat later. See the difference between traditional Delver builds (T1 Delver/Swiftspear, hold up protection/removal) and old school BGx (T1 DS into T2 removal/Bob into T3 Lily into a clock). GDS can certainly role-shift in matchups, but it's more fundamentally a midrange deck than a tempo deck.
So traditionally gds is tempo. That’s why it plays stubborn denial to protect its big threat it played on t2. Gds isn’t midrange imo.
The line of T2 GDS/Angler/Tasigur into Denial is way less common than the line of T1 removal/discard into T2 removal/discard/cantrip into T3 threat. You just need to look at the decklists to verify this, with few top-placing lists running more than 3 Stubs. Instead, they run 6 discard and 6+ removal, plus all the cantrips. Even without watching a single game, we can tell that the odds of drawing deployable threat into Stubs is way lower than the other play patterns.
Especially when the threats that matter need their life low, or GY stocked. Is it your traditional Jund/Junk? No. Is it CLOSER to midrange, than it is tempo?
Honestly I hate that people are starting to list GDS as midrange now when it isn't a traditional midrange decks and swings more to the tempo side. It makes the format look like midrange actually has a presence when it really doesn't
Very few decks stick to hard and fast classifications, the ability to pivot roles is an important one in Modern.
Traditionally, tempo decks deploy threats and then protect the threats and/or disrupt the opponent while the threat wins. Midrange decks tend to disrupt first and then deploy threats on a safe board, although some will still seek to protect a deployed threat later. See the difference between traditional Delver builds (T1 Delver/Swiftspear, hold up protection/removal) and old school BGx (T1 DS into T2 removal/Bob into T3 Lily into a clock). GDS can certainly role-shift in matchups, but it's more fundamentally a midrange deck than a tempo deck.
So traditionally gds is tempo. That’s why it plays stubborn denial to protect its big threat it played on t2. Gds isn’t midrange imo.
The line of T2 GDS/Angler/Tasigur into Denial is way less common than the line of T1 removal/discard into T2 removal/discard/cantrip into T3 threat. You just need to look at the decklists to verify this, with few top-placing lists running more than 3 Stubs. Instead, they run 6 discard and 6+ removal, plus all the cantrips. Even without watching a single game, we can tell that the odds of drawing deployable threat into Stubs is way lower than the other play patterns.
That doesn’t change the fact that DS plays a threat and then protects it. They don’t look to grind out games they look to end them. They don’t often need the t2 stub when they go disruption, disruption, and then threat. They look to fade 1 turn then protect the queen. While smashing face (sometimes killing in 1 turn with tbr).
i think idsurge has the right of it. decks, especially the good ones, have a way of defying traditional or strict classifications. so much like a deck like hollow one or ur phoenix is aggro-combo, GDS shares both midrange and tempo elements; while even dabbling in a combo-esque finish using temur battle rage. the emphasis on hyper mana efficiency and access to cheap responses at instant speed lends itself to tempo advantages, but discard coupled with strong standalone threats lends itself to trading resources for a mid game advantage.
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Traditionally, tempo decks deploy threats and then protect the threats and/or disrupt the opponent while the threat wins. Midrange decks tend to disrupt first and then deploy threats on a safe board, although some will still seek to protect a deployed threat later. See the difference between traditional Delver builds (T1 Delver/Swiftspear, hold up protection/removal) and old school BGx (T1 DS into T2 removal/Bob into T3 Lily into a clock). GDS can certainly role-shift in matchups, but it's more fundamentally a midrange deck than a tempo deck.
So traditionally gds is tempo. That’s why it plays stubborn denial to protect its big threat it played on t2. Gds isn’t midrange imo.
The line of T2 GDS/Angler/Tasigur into Denial is way less common than the line of T1 removal/discard into T2 removal/discard/cantrip into T3 threat. You just need to look at the decklists to verify this, with few top-placing lists running more than 3 Stubs. Instead, they run 6 discard and 6+ removal, plus all the cantrips. Even without watching a single game, we can tell that the odds of drawing deployable threat into Stubs is way lower than the other play patterns.
That doesn’t change the fact that DS plays a threat and then protects it. They don’t look to grind out games they look to end them. They don’t often need the t2 stub when they go disruption, disruption, and then threat. They look to fade 1 turn then protect the queen. While smashing face (sometimes killing in 1 turn with tbr).
It's possible you responded before my edit, in which case I encourage you to read Reid Duke's Thoughtseize and Fatal Push series on CF. He defines GDS as "black midrange," a definition I agree with based on both observed play patterns, deck composition, and historical classifications. Also, to put it simply, it's frikkin Reid Duke master of Midrange. If he calls it Midrange, it's Midrange.
I was a little more open to this archetype debate until I remembered this article and Duke's position. I'm just unwilling to argue with his classification given that man's knowledge of Magic, Modern, midrange, and these decks. Coupled with all the other elements I and others posted about, it's pretty clearly the proper classification.
Articles over a year old but I agree we don’t need to argue about our opinions or that just because pros think things doesn’t make them true. I respect your opinion just don’t agree.
Having played a decent amount of UR Birds, the deck is a combination of Dredge and Storm that isn't crippled by the hate used for either. It's a bit too linear and uninteresting for me to continue playing, but it is very powerful.
And I never, ever, ever, want to hear about how Summer Bloom's ban hurt that deck in any appreciable way. If you can eat a ban and remain Tier 1, you where probably Tier 0.5 or 0.
EDIT: Anyway, even with only 3 KCI in Day 2, guess what, 3 KCI in the top 18. 13 Phoenix Day 2, 7 in the top 23.
Its a bit worrisome.
While i agree that the numbers of UR Phoenix are kind of worrisome, lets not forget that the hype train is more than real on this one. After all it's finally a good blue and red deck with some "tempo plays" to it where you can play your Bolts + Cantrips while attacking with 3/2 flyers.
However, unlike many other linear decks this one dies more to interactive spells than pure sb hate which promotes decks that are heavy on interaction such as Bgx, GDS and Control. Overall this looks like the type of "linear deck" that could actually be good for moderns health.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
While i agree that the numbers of UR Phoenix are kind of worrisome, lets not forget that the hype train is more than real on this one. After all it's finally a good blue and red deck with some "tempo plays" to it where you can play your Bolts + Cantrips while attacking with 3/2 flyers.
However, unlike many other linear decks this one dies more to interactive spells than pure sb hate which promotes decks that are heavy on interaction such as Bgx, GDS and Control. Overall this looks like the type of "linear deck" that could actually be good for moderns health.
Is it just hype? The deck has a lot of consistency and does what wants to do pretty much all the time. The last events I watched I've seen it do double phoenix turn 2 way to frequently for my own taste. It's not a turn 2 kill but it's close. I've seen them goldfish the heck out of Amulet/KCI, which is kinda scary.
To be fair, if it helps policing the dumb(er) linear decks I'm on board, specially since it has a even/negative matchup against the interactive decks which are needing a bit more representation.
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Currently Playing: WUMiracles ControlUW RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
While i agree that the numbers of UR Phoenix are kind of worrisome, lets not forget that the hype train is more than real on this one. After all it's finally a good blue and red deck with some "tempo plays" to it where you can play your Bolts + Cantrips while attacking with 3/2 flyers.
However, unlike many other linear decks this one dies more to interactive spells than pure sb hate which promotes decks that are heavy on interaction such as Bgx, GDS and Control. Overall this looks like the type of "linear deck" that could actually be good for moderns health.
Is it just hype? The deck has a lot of consistency and does what wants to do pretty much all the time. The last events I watched I've seen it do double phoenix turn 2 way to frequently for my own taste. It's not a turn 2 kill but it's close. I've seen them goldfish the heck out of Amulet/KCI, which is kinda scary.
To be fair, if it helps policing the dumb(er) linear decks I'm on board, specially since it has a even/negative matchup against the interactive decks which are needing a bit more representation.
Isn’t that how modern has gotten to the point it’s at. If this crazy thing helps against this crazy thing it’s ok (as long as that crazy thing isn’t twin). Is it really fun gameplay when before your first turn you’re looking at at least 6 damage on your next turn that you really can’t interact with unless you have t1 gy hate? The amount of times you saw on stream morphose x2 or x3 was rather crazy. I’m all for these decks too but just unban stuff if this is the modern world we live in.
Articles over a year old but I agree we don’t need to argue about our opinions or that just because pros think things doesn’t make them true. I respect your opinion just don’t agree.
We've had this debate on here in the past. The bottom line is that GDS straddles the line between Midrange and Tempo in a way that probably no other deck ever has in Modern. Most of the disruption the deck plays is more Midrangey, like discard and removal spells. On the other hand, the threats themselves are tempo plays, as they're both undercosted for their size. Finally, TBR adds a bit of a combo axis to the deck. I don't think you're necessarily wrong to call it either Tempo or Midrange, but what makes the final determination to me is how the deck wants to play out in the dark. Generally, you want to interact with your opponent, stripping their resources with your discard and killing their threats, then play out your own threat and kill them while protecting it. This is more of a Midrange strategy. The deck is very capable of draws that are more like a Tempo plan when it needs to do that, though. So I personally view the deck as a Midrange deck that can play like a Tempo deck when it needs to.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Just asked another pro play what ds is because that’s who’s opinions matter I guess and gabe nassif said tempo definitely sometimes aggro control. I really don’t see it as midrange no mater how many ts/iok are in it.
GDS has tempo, midrange, and combo elements in it, but the primary gameplan resembles a tempo gameplan rather than a midrange one. This seems strange, since it uses discard effects, which are classically tempo negative plays, as a means to protect and enable the threats. The main reason the deck even uses discard is because Thoughtseize does double duty in enabling a faster Death’s Shadow and it’s an effective preemptive counterspell to clear out anything that would stop your threat from winning you the game. So, while the deck is “disrupting” first, like a good Midrange deck likes to do, it’s carried solely on the fact that Thoughtseize is that darn good with DS.
Back when GDS was running a full set of Snaps, Kolaghan’s Command in the main and sometimes even Lilianas in the main, I would have classified it as a Midrange deck. But the deck has evolved into supporting the tempo gameplan more. Now, it’s running things like Mishra’s Bauble and Faithless Looting, partially just to enable more consistent Gurmag Anglers (Looting is more as a measure to smooth out mana flooding, but it also works as extra copies of Thought Scour). The reality is that in most matchups, it’s just more important to put a clock on the opponent than it is toss discard effects at your opponent until you can rely on the overall card quality of your topdecks.
why does it even matter. if you want to feel vindicated in believing midrange sucks, you dont need to reach that far. it does. traditional GBx was destined to fall in power level as the card pool grew. the format moves towards extremes and you just dont cover as much as well.
besides no matter how you categorize GDS someone loses. GDS is propping both midrange and 'grow' spell based tempo in representation. with grow decks actually being worse off since the next 'best' option is probably UR wizards, whereas jund and rock occasionally post high profile finishes at the SCG and GP level.
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'Thats not real control' type things are really in the eye of the beholder. I couldn't care less what one pro's opinion is, when I have a definition or play pattern that lines up with one archetype or another more obviously over time.
EDIT: tronix with the truth bombs...
At this point I'm just marvelling at how Phoenix came out of nowhere, to being one of the best decks, the only one it even struggled with at Oakland was KCI, which had a 63% win match rate against the field!
As I posted in that thread, I hope someone with more time/bandwidth than I can pool their GP Oakland sample with my sample to get N even larger. I give all the matchup and sample Ns plus percentages, so this should be methodically easy, albeit time consuming.
1. Izzet Phoenix is the real deal, but it's probably being overplayed right now
2. Bant Spirits is very overplayed
3. Hardened Scales is very underplayed
4. GDS is the best fair deck
5. KCI probably deserves to eat a ban soon
6. GB Midrange is better than a lot of people seem to think
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Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
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Phase out all players' graveyards. They never phase back.
If a card would be put in a graveyard, phase it out instead. It never phases back. Good enough until we F-U the phase out mechanics for the lol like we did for exile.
We're getting there. I'm now awaiting creatures attacking from GY, drawing cards from exile and protection from being chosen.
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So traditionally gds is tempo. That’s why it plays stubborn denial to protect its big threat it played on t2. Gds isn’t midrange imo.
Spirits
The line of T2 GDS/Angler/Tasigur into Denial is way less common than the line of T1 removal/discard into T2 removal/discard/cantrip into T3 threat. You just need to look at the decklists to verify this, with few top-placing lists running more than 3 Stubs. Instead, they run 6 discard and 6+ removal, plus all the cantrips. Even without watching a single game, we can tell that the odds of drawing deployable threat into Stubs is way lower than the other play patterns.
EDIT: In addition to these observations, I'll add that Reid Duke classifies it as midrange in his Thoughtseize/Fatal Push series. All those datapoints point to it being midrange, not tempo: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/thoughtseizes-and-fatal-pushes-part-iii-grixis-deaths-shadow/
100%.
Very few decks stick to hard and fast classifications, the ability to pivot roles is an important one in Modern.
Spirits
That doesn’t change the fact that DS plays a threat and then protects it. They don’t look to grind out games they look to end them. They don’t often need the t2 stub when they go disruption, disruption, and then threat. They look to fade 1 turn then protect the queen. While smashing face (sometimes killing in 1 turn with tbr).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It's possible you responded before my edit, in which case I encourage you to read Reid Duke's Thoughtseize and Fatal Push series on CF. He defines GDS as "black midrange," a definition I agree with based on both observed play patterns, deck composition, and historical classifications. Also, to put it simply, it's frikkin Reid Duke master of Midrange. If he calls it Midrange, it's Midrange.
See here for where he sets up GDS as Black Midrange and defines the archetype: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/thoughtseizes-and-fatal-pushes-part-i/
See here for his dig into GDS as a Black Midrange deck specifically: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/thoughtseizes-and-fatal-pushes-part-iii-grixis-deaths-shadow/
I was a little more open to this archetype debate until I remembered this article and Duke's position. I'm just unwilling to argue with his classification given that man's knowledge of Magic, Modern, midrange, and these decks. Coupled with all the other elements I and others posted about, it's pretty clearly the proper classification.
it changed alot..
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
While i agree that the numbers of UR Phoenix are kind of worrisome, lets not forget that the hype train is more than real on this one. After all it's finally a good blue and red deck with some "tempo plays" to it where you can play your Bolts + Cantrips while attacking with 3/2 flyers.
However, unlike many other linear decks this one dies more to interactive spells than pure sb hate which promotes decks that are heavy on interaction such as Bgx, GDS and Control. Overall this looks like the type of "linear deck" that could actually be good for moderns health.
Modern // Legacy // Pauper
WUBRG
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
To be fair, if it helps policing the dumb(er) linear decks I'm on board, specially since it has a even/negative matchup against the interactive decks which are needing a bit more representation.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Isn’t that how modern has gotten to the point it’s at. If this crazy thing helps against this crazy thing it’s ok (as long as that crazy thing isn’t twin). Is it really fun gameplay when before your first turn you’re looking at at least 6 damage on your next turn that you really can’t interact with unless you have t1 gy hate? The amount of times you saw on stream morphose x2 or x3 was rather crazy. I’m all for these decks too but just unban stuff if this is the modern world we live in.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/afwiqs/modern_mox_insights_metagame_report_3_magicfest/
Spirits
Back when GDS was running a full set of Snaps, Kolaghan’s Command in the main and sometimes even Lilianas in the main, I would have classified it as a Midrange deck. But the deck has evolved into supporting the tempo gameplan more. Now, it’s running things like Mishra’s Bauble and Faithless Looting, partially just to enable more consistent Gurmag Anglers (Looting is more as a measure to smooth out mana flooding, but it also works as extra copies of Thought Scour). The reality is that in most matchups, it’s just more important to put a clock on the opponent than it is toss discard effects at your opponent until you can rely on the overall card quality of your topdecks.
besides no matter how you categorize GDS someone loses. GDS is propping both midrange and 'grow' spell based tempo in representation. with grow decks actually being worse off since the next 'best' option is probably UR wizards, whereas jund and rock occasionally post high profile finishes at the SCG and GP level.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)EDIT: tronix with the truth bombs...
At this point I'm just marvelling at how Phoenix came out of nowhere, to being one of the best decks, the only one it even struggled with at Oakland was KCI, which had a 63% win match rate against the field!
But yes, play what you like.
Spirits
As I posted in that thread, I hope someone with more time/bandwidth than I can pool their GP Oakland sample with my sample to get N even larger. I give all the matchup and sample Ns plus percentages, so this should be methodically easy, albeit time consuming.
1. Izzet Phoenix is the real deal, but it's probably being overplayed right now
2. Bant Spirits is very overplayed
3. Hardened Scales is very underplayed
4. GDS is the best fair deck
5. KCI probably deserves to eat a ban soon
6. GB Midrange is better than a lot of people seem to think
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Spirits
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Enchantment
Phase out all players' graveyards. They never phase back.
If a card would be put in a graveyard, phase it out instead. It never phases back.
Good enough until we F-U the phase out mechanics for the lol like we did for exile.
We're getting there. I'm now awaiting creatures attacking from GY, drawing cards from exile and protection from being chosen.