Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Next B&R update is 01/21/2019. Depending on when the Modern PT falls next year, I'd expect SFM to come off either at that time (for a later PT), or immediately after the PT in February/March (for an earlier one). We'll have to wait and see until 12/06/2018 when the PT announcement comes through.
Next B&R update is 01/21/2019. Depending on when the Modern PT falls next year, I'd expect SFM to come off either at that time (for a later PT), or immediately after the PT in February/March (for an earlier one). We'll have to wait and see until 12/06/2018 when the PT announcement comes through.
Could this be, partly because of Standard and Arena? I mean, the current Standard format is super popular and great. Had they unbanned one card or two, this would move the spotlight into Modern again, and partly deprive Standard of it's gloom.
I would like to know if they think this way, or this is irrelevant at all.
It makes me sad to think that the biggest reasons for making changes (or not) in the B&R are unrelated with the format's health and have more to do with PT timings and the success of other formats
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
Could this be, partly because of Standard and Arena? I mean, the current Standard format is super popular and great. Had they unbanned one card or two, this would move the spotlight into Modern again, and partly deprive Standard of it's gloom.
I would like to know if they think this way, or this is irrelevant at all.
Seems improbable. We have no good reason to believe these kinds conspiracy allegations are founded. A far more likely explanation is that Wizards ia sticking to more or less the same update schedule they've always used out of habit and, maybe, because they want to link B&R changes to PT hype or PT results. We do know how much they connect Modern with the PT. But there is no evidence they care about detracting from Modern to add to Standard.
Another day, another announcement where SFM is not unbanned.
Also, #banlistlogic was telling me that DTT would be unbanned because it was printed in UMA. Oh and GGT should have been unbanned too, for the same reason.
No explanation of how they perceive the health of the format to be.
No detail on any cards being considered.
No SFM.
No Twin.
See you in a few months I guess Modern, you are toxic as **** right now.
They don't want to talk cause they don't have a real methodology for banning/unbanning and thus are worried about criticism when they don't follow whatever logic they lay out.
Seeing a disappointing amount of hyperbole and unbased conspiracy-talk in here I would have hoped that, in a game that rewards critical thinking, we would see more of that.
Seeing a disappointing amount of hyperbole and unbased conspiracy-talk in here I would have hoped that, in a game that rewards critical thinking, we would see more of that.
What possible critical thinking goes into thinking Stoneforge Mystic is too strong for Modern?
There is literally no reason whatsoever to keep that card banned, other than to wait and capitalize on its unban, reward players after a hypothetical awful PT, or cash in with a well-timed reprint?
Nobody can look us in the face and say this card is "too good," while Modern is overrun by high variance Turn-3 decks that require narrow sideboard hate.
And this is all before even mentioning Splinter Twin...
Can you provide hard evidence, in numbers, rather than conjecture, on what the effect will be if the card is unbanned?
EDIT: I'm not saying it's not safe, I just want to see an argument that is based on more than conjecture from random people in forums and reddit Even conjecture from pros aren't reliable. So far, the best and honest argument that I've seen is that people want cards unbanned because they want to play with them. To state a card is okay to be unbanned, even if we agree, without lots of hard evidence or data, is just random internet conjecture.
Seeing a disappointing amount of hyperbole and unbased conspiracy-talk in here I would have hoped that, in a game that rewards critical thinking, we would see more of that.
it's not baseless. it's not even really a conspiracy. Wizards is almost comically transparent in these choices. Cards that when unbanned would increase sales of the set they are in are primarily unbanned right before a reprint, usually to sell an otherwise pathetic product. if Wizards can't make moneyfrom it, they won't do it. Eldrazi Wintr did not end because they cared about the players, it ended because it was going to hurt tournament attendance. Jace was not unbanned when it became clear he was fine for Modern, he was unbanned when they realized their masters set with Jace was trash and wouldn't sell otherwise. we do think critically, we observe patterns and draw conclusions. Look at AV, Bitterblossom. it's not a conspiracy theory, it's observation of blatant actions
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Can you provide hard evidence, in numbers, rather than conjecture, on what the effect will be if the card is unbanned?
EDIT: I'm not saying it's not safe, I just want to see an argument that is based on more than conjecture from random people in forums and reddit Even conjecture from pros aren't reliable. So far, the best and honest argument that I've seen is that people want cards unbanned because they want to play with them. To state a card is okay to be unbanned, even if we agree, without lots of hard evidence or data, is just random internet conjecture.
Of course we can't, nobody can provide numbers for you until the card is actually unbanned. If that were a prerequisite to unban a card, nothing would ever get unbanned.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
i just figure they dont say anything because there is nothing they could say that people would accept or not put under a microscope and criticize to death. its just a losing proposition all around.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
You could provide numbers, if you tested extensively. This is important for us to recognize because we can often understand a person's motives when we observe their methods. If someone wanted to know truth about whether something is safe to unban, they would take the steps to find that truth. If they wanted to just assume that their conjecture is reliable enough, that their opinion is valid without testing it for validity, they would feel safe in just finding supporting evidence rather than assembling some sort of test for it, to check their bias'.
@Melkor, Is that the same case for every card that came off the ban list, or are we being selective with our samples to justify the argument?
So, if all we have from people being upset is opinions and conjecture, then the work put into that opinion justifies no more than a response of, "Noted."
Can you provide hard evidence, in numbers, rather than conjecture, on what the effect will be if the card is unbanned?
EDIT: I'm not saying it's not safe, I just want to see an argument that is based on more than conjecture from random people in forums and reddit Even conjecture from pros aren't reliable. So far, the best and honest argument that I've seen is that people want cards unbanned because they want to play with them. To state a card is okay to be unbanned, even if we agree, without lots of hard evidence or data, is just random internet conjecture.
'Lots of Hard Evidence/Data'.
How do you propose we gather that data? My testing is no better than yours, no better than 'conjecture from Pro's' (who told us Jace would ruin Modern, what a ******* JOKE) and all of it is easily dismissed.
We cannot get data from Wizards, they hide it.
We cannot test in a 'real' environment that would provide enough reps to draw any meaningful conclusion.
"Where is the data" is actually insulting at this point.
Can you provide hard evidence, in numbers, rather than conjecture, on what the effect will be if the card is unbanned?
EDIT: I'm not saying it's not safe, I just want to see an argument that is based on more than conjecture from random people in forums and reddit Even conjecture from pros aren't reliable. So far, the best and honest argument that I've seen is that people want cards unbanned because they want to play with them. To state a card is okay to be unbanned, even if we agree, without lots of hard evidence or data, is just random internet conjecture.
Think about the absolute nut draw you could get from any deck playing Stoneforge Mystic. Now think of the nut draws of pretty much any top deck in Modern today, and tell me with a straight face that Stoneforge is scarier or more powerful than any of them.
i just figure they dont say anything because there is nothing they could say that people would accept or not put under a microscope and criticize to death. its just a losing proposition all around.
Kind of like how the specific words, rationalizations, and justifications for Twin's banning were laughably wrong, untrue, and a complete failure? And three years later, they refuse to even address it directly?
So, if all we have from people being upset is opinions and conjecture, then the work put into that opinion justifies no more than a response of, "Noted."
You could provide numbers, if you tested extensively. This is important for us to recognize because we can often understand a person's motives when we observe their methods. If someone wanted to know truth about whether something is safe to unban, they would take the steps to find that truth. If they wanted to just assume that their conjecture is reliable enough, that their opinion is valid without testing it for validity, they would feel safe in just finding supporting evidence rather than assembling some sort of test for it, to check their bias'.
@Melkor, Is that the same case for every card that came off the ban list, or are we being selective with our samples to justify the argument?
So, if all we have from people being upset is opinions and conjecture, then the work put into that opinion justifies no more than a response of, "Noted."
theory comes before experimentation, and not all theories are created equal. by your standard a claim that skullclamp is safe to unban and a claim that sfm is safe to unban merit the same response in discussions.
testing, and in turn the scientific method with all that it entails, is just an extension of logic; or in other words critical thinking. its not the basis for it.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Can you provide hard evidence, in numbers, rather than conjecture, on what the effect will be if the card is unbanned?
EDIT: I'm not saying it's not safe, I just want to see an argument that is based on more than conjecture from random people in forums and reddit Even conjecture from pros aren't reliable. So far, the best and honest argument that I've seen is that people want cards unbanned because they want to play with them. To state a card is okay to be unbanned, even if we agree, without lots of hard evidence or data, is just random internet conjecture.
Although I do agree with your sentiment that people are too quick to conspiracy talk, it is rather convenient that AV, Bitterblossom, and Jace were reprinted right around the time of their unbanning. Of course, that’s not really sufficient evidence that they’re using the ban list as a tool for boosting sales on product.
Asking each person to provide such testing to post their opinions seems like an extremely high bar to set. The only extensive testing I’ve ever seen regarding potential unbannings comes from David Ernenwein on Modern Nexus. WotC hasn't really acknowledged any sort of internal testing to prove that a card is safe to re-enter the Modern format. When Wild Nacatl was removed from the list, they didn’t cite thousands of games played in testing to ensure that it was safe for the format, nor did they cite it for the other unbannings. They basically just said, "Hey, we think this is probably okay in the format now."
I do, however, wish people would stop speaking with such certainty about banlist decisions. The reality is that all of us have opinions about the banlist, most of them based on intuition over any sort of conclusive evidence. I think that’s okay as long as we’re all willing to admit that our intuitions are subject to being wrong. My thoughts were certainly wrong about Jace, the Mind Sculptor when all the unbanning talk was happening.
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Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the November 26, 2018 B&R Announcement:
No Changes
Next B&R Announcement:
January 21, 2019
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf unbanned
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
01/10/2018 - 26/11/2018
08/20/2018 - 01/10/2018
07/02/2018 - 08/20/2018
04/16/2018 - 07/02/2018
02/10/2018 - 04/16/2018
01/15/2017 - 02/10/2018
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Next B&R update is 01/21/2019. Depending on when the Modern PT falls next year, I'd expect SFM to come off either at that time (for a later PT), or immediately after the PT in February/March (for an earlier one). We'll have to wait and see until 12/06/2018 when the PT announcement comes through.
It makes me sad to think that the biggest reasons for making changes (or not) in the B&R are unrelated with the format's health and have more to do with PT timings and the success of other formats
No explanation of how they perceive the health of the format to be.
No detail on any cards being considered.
No SFM.
No Twin.
See you in a few months I guess Modern, you are toxic as **** right now.
Spirits
yeah I wish even if they had no changes they would atleast talk about the health of the format, what cards they are looking at etc.
“Homo homini lupus est.”
Seems improbable. We have no good reason to believe these kinds conspiracy allegations are founded. A far more likely explanation is that Wizards ia sticking to more or less the same update schedule they've always used out of habit and, maybe, because they want to link B&R changes to PT hype or PT results. We do know how much they connect Modern with the PT. But there is no evidence they care about detracting from Modern to add to Standard.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Also, #banlistlogic was telling me that DTT would be unbanned because it was printed in UMA. Oh and GGT should have been unbanned too, for the same reason.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
They don't want to talk cause they don't have a real methodology for banning/unbanning and thus are worried about criticism when they don't follow whatever logic they lay out.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
SFM and swords can rest in the binder for a little longer.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
What possible critical thinking goes into thinking Stoneforge Mystic is too strong for Modern?
There is literally no reason whatsoever to keep that card banned, other than to wait and capitalize on its unban, reward players after a hypothetical awful PT, or cash in with a well-timed reprint?
Nobody can look us in the face and say this card is "too good," while Modern is overrun by high variance Turn-3 decks that require narrow sideboard hate.
And this is all before even mentioning Splinter Twin...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
EDIT: I'm not saying it's not safe, I just want to see an argument that is based on more than conjecture from random people in forums and reddit Even conjecture from pros aren't reliable. So far, the best and honest argument that I've seen is that people want cards unbanned because they want to play with them. To state a card is okay to be unbanned, even if we agree, without lots of hard evidence or data, is just random internet conjecture.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
it's not baseless. it's not even really a conspiracy. Wizards is almost comically transparent in these choices. Cards that when unbanned would increase sales of the set they are in are primarily unbanned right before a reprint, usually to sell an otherwise pathetic product. if Wizards can't make moneyfrom it, they won't do it. Eldrazi Wintr did not end because they cared about the players, it ended because it was going to hurt tournament attendance. Jace was not unbanned when it became clear he was fine for Modern, he was unbanned when they realized their masters set with Jace was trash and wouldn't sell otherwise. we do think critically, we observe patterns and draw conclusions. Look at AV, Bitterblossom. it's not a conspiracy theory, it's observation of blatant actions
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)@Melkor, Is that the same case for every card that came off the ban list, or are we being selective with our samples to justify the argument?
So, if all we have from people being upset is opinions and conjecture, then the work put into that opinion justifies no more than a response of, "Noted."
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
'Lots of Hard Evidence/Data'.
How do you propose we gather that data? My testing is no better than yours, no better than 'conjecture from Pro's' (who told us Jace would ruin Modern, what a ******* JOKE) and all of it is easily dismissed.
We cannot get data from Wizards, they hide it.
We cannot test in a 'real' environment that would provide enough reps to draw any meaningful conclusion.
"Where is the data" is actually insulting at this point.
Spirits
Kind of like how the specific words, rationalizations, and justifications for Twin's banning were laughably wrong, untrue, and a complete failure? And three years later, they refuse to even address it directly?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
theory comes before experimentation, and not all theories are created equal. by your standard a claim that skullclamp is safe to unban and a claim that sfm is safe to unban merit the same response in discussions.
testing, and in turn the scientific method with all that it entails, is just an extension of logic; or in other words critical thinking. its not the basis for it.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Although I do agree with your sentiment that people are too quick to conspiracy talk, it is rather convenient that AV, Bitterblossom, and Jace were reprinted right around the time of their unbanning. Of course, that’s not really sufficient evidence that they’re using the ban list as a tool for boosting sales on product.
Asking each person to provide such testing to post their opinions seems like an extremely high bar to set. The only extensive testing I’ve ever seen regarding potential unbannings comes from David Ernenwein on Modern Nexus. WotC hasn't really acknowledged any sort of internal testing to prove that a card is safe to re-enter the Modern format. When Wild Nacatl was removed from the list, they didn’t cite thousands of games played in testing to ensure that it was safe for the format, nor did they cite it for the other unbannings. They basically just said, "Hey, we think this is probably okay in the format now."
I do, however, wish people would stop speaking with such certainty about banlist decisions. The reality is that all of us have opinions about the banlist, most of them based on intuition over any sort of conclusive evidence. I think that’s okay as long as we’re all willing to admit that our intuitions are subject to being wrong. My thoughts were certainly wrong about Jace, the Mind Sculptor when all the unbanning talk was happening.