Note that with the addition of Guilds of Ravnica, we're aligning the pool of available cards on MTG Arena with Standard. When Open Beta starts, you'll be able to get the following sets: Ixalan, Rivals of Ixalan, Dominaria, Core Set 2019, and, of course, Guilds of Ravnica. We are committed to ultimately providing a format for MTG Arena post-rotations, so once we have settled on how set rotation works, next year we will likely return previous sets to the system, including Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, and Hour of Devastation.
This is the first time I've seen Wizards actually go on record for a non-rotating Arena format: note that they say "post-rotations" plural, not just post-rotation singular. I think there was a vague reference earlier to the so-called rotation problem, but this kind of more explicit acknowledgement deserves discussion. I'm particularly nervous about how this would affect MTGO collections, in addition to its impact on Modern.
I'm not particularly concerned. A post-Standard Arena only format would just be a way to ensure the already casual player base targeted by Arena cannot complain about rotation 'deleting' product they have paid for.
It wont touch what Legacy and Modern do, and exist for.
Note that with the addition of Guilds of Ravnica, we're aligning the pool of available cards on MTG Arena with Standard. When Open Beta starts, you'll be able to get the following sets: Ixalan, Rivals of Ixalan, Dominaria, Core Set 2019, and, of course, Guilds of Ravnica. We are committed to ultimately providing a format for MTG Arena post-rotations, so once we have settled on how set rotation works, next year we will likely return previous sets to the system, including Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, and Hour of Devastation.
This is the first time I've seen Wizards actually go on record for a non-rotating Arena format: note that they say "post-rotations" plural, not just post-rotation singular. I think there was a vague reference earlier to the so-called rotation problem, but this kind of more explicit acknowledgement deserves discussion. I'm particularly nervous about how this would affect MTGO collections, in addition to its impact on Modern.
Arena is adding a pauper-style format that exists within the standard-legal sets but will allow only commons. Hence referencing multiple rotations.
Note that with the addition of Guilds of Ravnica, we're aligning the pool of available cards on MTG Arena with Standard. When Open Beta starts, you'll be able to get the following sets: Ixalan, Rivals of Ixalan, Dominaria, Core Set 2019, and, of course, Guilds of Ravnica. We are committed to ultimately providing a format for MTG Arena post-rotations, so once we have settled on how set rotation works, next year we will likely return previous sets to the system, including Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, and Hour of Devastation.
This is the first time I've seen Wizards actually go on record for a non-rotating Arena format: note that they say "post-rotations" plural, not just post-rotation singular. I think there was a vague reference earlier to the so-called rotation problem, but this kind of more explicit acknowledgement deserves discussion. I'm particularly nervous about how this would affect MTGO collections, in addition to its impact on Modern.
Arena is adding a pauper-style format that exists within the standard-legal sets but will allow only commons. Hence referencing multiple rotations.
Is there a source for this? That doesn't seem to resolve the so-called rotation problem at all, as only your commons would retain post-rotation value. This format almost certainly refers to a new post-Arena Modernesque format
Note that with the addition of Guilds of Ravnica, we're aligning the pool of available cards on MTG Arena with Standard. When Open Beta starts, you'll be able to get the following sets: Ixalan, Rivals of Ixalan, Dominaria, Core Set 2019, and, of course, Guilds of Ravnica. We are committed to ultimately providing a format for MTG Arena post-rotations, so once we have settled on how set rotation works, next year we will likely return previous sets to the system, including Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, and Hour of Devastation.
This is the first time I've seen Wizards actually go on record for a non-rotating Arena format: note that they say "post-rotations" plural, not just post-rotation singular. I think there was a vague reference earlier to the so-called rotation problem, but this kind of more explicit acknowledgement deserves discussion. I'm particularly nervous about how this would affect MTGO collections, in addition to its impact on Modern.
Arena is adding a pauper-style format that exists within the standard-legal sets but will allow only commons. Hence referencing multiple rotations.
Is there a source for this? That doesn't seem to resolve the so-called rotation problem at all, as only your commons would retain post-rotation value. This format almost certainly refers to a new post-Arena Modernesque format
I think what BlueTron is saying is that having a Pauper-Standard format with the same rotation will lead to a much smaller card pool during certain instances (like the current one, for example). The Pauper-Standard (Or Pauper-MTGA) format will need to be as large as the current standard to have a good variety and meta-game. I believe that is what the "Multiple rotations" is mentioning.
I was only referring to there being a plural "rotations," not so much what happens to the cards that rotate. It was in the same announcement as Momir Basic coming out, I believe.
Still, the real problem is "what do I do with all these useless cards?" The easy answer would be a trade-in similar to hearthstone's dusting OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIT!
It would take them a long time to implement all sets in Modern, if they even decided to do that. I think it's more likely they start a new non-rotating format that begins at Kaladesh.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
They already have Amonkhet and Kaladesh programmed into the game, so whatever format they do will undoubtedly include them. I think it's just a question of if they include older sets, and how far back they go.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I personally believe it's an economic mistake to not include Modern Legal sets in Arena. How do you not want the hottest constructed format on your newest platform?
So, in regards of toolbox decks (and some more green decks), getting forced out of modern,
I was thinking that Coco/Chord/Evolution decks, are forced out of the meta, because they fold to combo plus Terminus is a thing.
Vs Terminus: Persist does not matter, indestructible does not matter, other similar mechanics do not matter. The powerful miracle sweeper just wipes them clean.
Those decks are powerful, but as long combos(mainly KCI), and Terminus are things, I can not see those decks returning to modern.
If this trend continues, Green Sun's Zenith should be the card unbanned together with Stoneforge Mystic in Modern, as early as the upcoming February.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the statistics from the past 4 GPs and SCG Opens that was shown here showed Company as the 5th best performing deck in respect to win percentage. I think there are certain decks that it has a tough time with, but there's also decks that it does super well with.
Also just anecdotal evidence, but I made the finals with Abzan Company just this last Sunday. It was only a 34 person PPTQ since the bigger PPTQ "locally" was capped at 64, but it still had many players who have top 8ed PPTQs and lost in the finals of at least 1 this season, so you best believe that people wanted to win.
Toolbox decks are just worse versions of midrange decks. Rather than packing powerful generic answers, they have overall weaker answers that are very good in super specific scenarios. The only time that doesn't turn out to be the case is if the tutor card is so powerful it pushes out other midrange decks. This kinda goes back to an earlier discussion on strategy diversity where I posed the idea that at some point, the goal of diversity breaks down the categories into way too specific of items.
You're going to have to clarify if you are talking about now or at all times. There was a point where the Birthing Pod deck (Junk/Rhino Pod) deck became so good for the meta that you would be doing yourself a disservice by playing any other type of Midrange deck. It basically invalidated every Midrange deck at the time. Combo was still fine (Scapeshift with Dig Through Time or Bloom Titan), Tron was still fine (stomped Pod), Tempo (Treasure Delver) was still fine because it won vs. many other things, even Aggro in Affinity was fine. But Jund/Junk were nearly as unplayable as they became later on during Eldrazi (although that one has it beat).
Toolbox decks are fine. They just are too inconsistent or can't find strong enough answers in time. I know me saying this makes it seem like Green Sun's Zenith should NOT be unbanned. But I feel that improvements to certain decks in Modern are okay as long as it doesn't push something too hard. I don't mind improvements at all. Some see Preordain, an improvement, and say, "I don't want those decks to have improvements." I personally do.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I personally believe it's an economic mistake to not include Modern Legal sets in Arena. How do you not want the hottest constructed format on your newest platform?
I think it's more of an issue in building out the cardbase. Modern has about 14,000 cards in it and Wizards doesn't really have a huge team to draw from. Adding that many cards simply takes time.
I personally believe it's an economic mistake to not include Modern Legal sets in Arena. How do you not want the hottest constructed format on your newest platform?
I think it's more of an issue in building out the cardbase. Modern has about 14,000 cards in it and Wizards doesn't really have a huge team to draw from. Adding that many cards simply takes time.
Building out the interactions of various cards could also be problematic.
What I think would be interesting is learning if MTGA is impacting cards at all, like we know MTGO has. Wording and ability and such.
Although there are enough cards printed recently that are callbacks to plenty of keywords abilities (tracker having landfall for instance).
I also don't think a new format is plausible because the mana bases have not been properly developed yet. Enemy fast lands are pretty above and beyond anything else available. It falls to the same shortcomings modern has had at times and that frontier had - certain strats have card pools that are just inherently stronger than anything else for a given period of time. Modern is FINALLY becoming truly diverse imho. The format was quite stale comparatively two-three years ago and before. I remember coming through the same handful of decks top 32ing all the time. We just didn't see the variety of decks we see today.
I'm not really sure where MTGA fits in the grand scheme of things honestly. I would like for them to port MTGO over eventually and just bug fixes and a face lift to the program. Having two online products seems silly to me personally. Especially when one could service the same crowds. If the coding can support the older cards, just migrate collections and open trading/crafting to the players.
or, and i know this might seem radical, they expect people to actually play the game; especially a demographic of players not already entrenched in the mtg franchise that they are desperately trying to reach.
edit: also, aazadan brought it up, but the barrier to adding a format like modern to arena is the logistics of adding such a large card pool. not only would it require extensive testing with their new rules engine, arena also employs custom graphics for many cards/interactions.
that said, wizards was quick to point out how flexible the new rules engine is supposed to be. particularly highlighting the ability to fluidly add new cards. granted there is a difference between adding a new set and adding a decade worth of sets.
using a digital platform to reach a larger playerbase, and making gameplay more fluid and visually appealing isnt the same as 'esports'. sure it lends itself to being more attractive to watch in the event that it gets popular enough, but it isnt the point. its like saying blizzard designed hearthstone for esports, which makes zero sense. they simply made it as a more approachable game, capitalizing on one of their most profitable franchises (warcraft), that offered low investment/high replayability gameplay to the masses.
wizards wants to replicate and leverage that. first as being profitable in its own right (buying gems), but as a stepping stone to their other products. the fast pace and visual appeal is a part of that.
regardless, that is getting off-topic. if we are looking at how arena affects modern, particularly if the format is in jeopardy. i dont think it is. yes wizards will have to address the rotation problem in arena, and its even plausible they create a format specifically to do that. however it is questionable whether they even expect that format to translate to paper; the same way that arena-standard hasnt been the same as regular standard.
a more broad question is what the divergence in digital and paper magic means for the game in general. im not sure there is a clear answer for that.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Esports doesnt really make companies giant sums of money. Look at Hearthstone, the game isnt really on the back of esports. The game makes money from people buying the packs through the client. Esports is more like marketing, a means to an end.
tronix's point is what I also think what Wizard's is trying to do. Think about it this way, people who really want to play mtg see the price tag on magic decks and are scared away. From an outsider, $1000 i quite ridiculous especially in todays age of free to play business models in games. With arena they want to get these people that wont pay that much for a deck, but might throw on a few bucks every paychek for more digital card packs. With Modern it would be kid of hard to implement older cards in that business model
There is 0% chance that Wizards would ever import Modern Cards.
MTGA is set up to create an online platform that is modern (unlike MTGO, which I still love, Go Cube!), profitable (micro-transactions :flame:), and is welcoming to newer players who may be unfamiliar with Magic: The Gathering. They saw how profitable Hearthstone was/is, and to be honest, Magic is simply a better game than Hearthstone both in complexity and replay value.
On the brightside, I don't see a reason MTGO will ever be "unsupported". It will be similar to the game Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. Blizzard still has a small team (I want to say 1-4 people) who work with the game, keep it updated and fix bugs. My only concern would be if Wizards stops adding new sets to MTGO, but I feel like we are still years away from that date.
Who knows, maybe as more people get involved with MTGA they will find interest in the great format of Modern and start playing MTGO
There is 0% chance that Wizards would ever import Modern Cards.
All it takes is a little bit of money for this to be completely incorrect.
This is an issue of this company having two different platforms. Which makes absolutely no sense, from a marketing, managerial or financial aspect. People need to realize we could demand for the Modern format to be on Magic Arena. Just tell Wizards in your next survey "Not Interested Modern cards not on platform" and see how fast Hasbro's shoves it downs WotC's throat to make it happen.
Isn’t it strange there’s a ban/unban announcement for October 1st? I feel Wizards lined up 3 ban/unban announcement in 3 consecutive months.
There's an announcement with every major set, as well as after each PT. That works out to 8 announcements per year right now, and once the new PT schedule takes effect it will mean 10 announcements per year. They're quite common.
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/mtg-arena-open-all-starting-september-27-2018-09-19
This is the first time I've seen Wizards actually go on record for a non-rotating Arena format: note that they say "post-rotations" plural, not just post-rotation singular. I think there was a vague reference earlier to the so-called rotation problem, but this kind of more explicit acknowledgement deserves discussion. I'm particularly nervous about how this would affect MTGO collections, in addition to its impact on Modern.
It wont touch what Legacy and Modern do, and exist for.
Spirits
Arena is adding a pauper-style format that exists within the standard-legal sets but will allow only commons. Hence referencing multiple rotations.
Is there a source for this? That doesn't seem to resolve the so-called rotation problem at all, as only your commons would retain post-rotation value. This format almost certainly refers to a new post-Arena Modernesque format
I think what BlueTron is saying is that having a Pauper-Standard format with the same rotation will lead to a much smaller card pool during certain instances (like the current one, for example). The Pauper-Standard (Or Pauper-MTGA) format will need to be as large as the current standard to have a good variety and meta-game. I believe that is what the "Multiple rotations" is mentioning.
Still, the real problem is "what do I do with all these useless cards?" The easy answer would be a trade-in similar to hearthstone's dusting OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIT!
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
How about they start it at Dominaria?
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the statistics from the past 4 GPs and SCG Opens that was shown here showed Company as the 5th best performing deck in respect to win percentage. I think there are certain decks that it has a tough time with, but there's also decks that it does super well with.
Also just anecdotal evidence, but I made the finals with Abzan Company just this last Sunday. It was only a 34 person PPTQ since the bigger PPTQ "locally" was capped at 64, but it still had many players who have top 8ed PPTQs and lost in the finals of at least 1 this season, so you best believe that people wanted to win.
You're going to have to clarify if you are talking about now or at all times. There was a point where the Birthing Pod deck (Junk/Rhino Pod) deck became so good for the meta that you would be doing yourself a disservice by playing any other type of Midrange deck. It basically invalidated every Midrange deck at the time. Combo was still fine (Scapeshift with Dig Through Time or Bloom Titan), Tron was still fine (stomped Pod), Tempo (Treasure Delver) was still fine because it won vs. many other things, even Aggro in Affinity was fine. But Jund/Junk were nearly as unplayable as they became later on during Eldrazi (although that one has it beat).
Toolbox decks are fine. They just are too inconsistent or can't find strong enough answers in time. I know me saying this makes it seem like Green Sun's Zenith should NOT be unbanned. But I feel that improvements to certain decks in Modern are okay as long as it doesn't push something too hard. I don't mind improvements at all. Some see Preordain, an improvement, and say, "I don't want those decks to have improvements." I personally do.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think it's more of an issue in building out the cardbase. Modern has about 14,000 cards in it and Wizards doesn't really have a huge team to draw from. Adding that many cards simply takes time.
Building out the interactions of various cards could also be problematic.
What I think would be interesting is learning if MTGA is impacting cards at all, like we know MTGO has. Wording and ability and such.
Although there are enough cards printed recently that are callbacks to plenty of keywords abilities (tracker having landfall for instance).
I also don't think a new format is plausible because the mana bases have not been properly developed yet. Enemy fast lands are pretty above and beyond anything else available. It falls to the same shortcomings modern has had at times and that frontier had - certain strats have card pools that are just inherently stronger than anything else for a given period of time. Modern is FINALLY becoming truly diverse imho. The format was quite stale comparatively two-three years ago and before. I remember coming through the same handful of decks top 32ing all the time. We just didn't see the variety of decks we see today.
I'm not really sure where MTGA fits in the grand scheme of things honestly. I would like for them to port MTGO over eventually and just bug fixes and a face lift to the program. Having two online products seems silly to me personally. Especially when one could service the same crowds. If the coding can support the older cards, just migrate collections and open trading/crafting to the players.
edit: also, aazadan brought it up, but the barrier to adding a format like modern to arena is the logistics of adding such a large card pool. not only would it require extensive testing with their new rules engine, arena also employs custom graphics for many cards/interactions.
that said, wizards was quick to point out how flexible the new rules engine is supposed to be. particularly highlighting the ability to fluidly add new cards. granted there is a difference between adding a new set and adding a decade worth of sets.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)But yes its for esports. Game is just more profitable online and easier to balance and referee since the program will handle all that.
wizards wants to replicate and leverage that. first as being profitable in its own right (buying gems), but as a stepping stone to their other products. the fast pace and visual appeal is a part of that.
regardless, that is getting off-topic. if we are looking at how arena affects modern, particularly if the format is in jeopardy. i dont think it is. yes wizards will have to address the rotation problem in arena, and its even plausible they create a format specifically to do that. however it is questionable whether they even expect that format to translate to paper; the same way that arena-standard hasnt been the same as regular standard.
a more broad question is what the divergence in digital and paper magic means for the game in general. im not sure there is a clear answer for that.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)tronix's point is what I also think what Wizard's is trying to do. Think about it this way, people who really want to play mtg see the price tag on magic decks and are scared away. From an outsider, $1000 i quite ridiculous especially in todays age of free to play business models in games. With arena they want to get these people that wont pay that much for a deck, but might throw on a few bucks every paychek for more digital card packs. With Modern it would be kid of hard to implement older cards in that business model
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
MTGA is set up to create an online platform that is modern (unlike MTGO, which I still love, Go Cube!), profitable (micro-transactions :flame:), and is welcoming to newer players who may be unfamiliar with Magic: The Gathering. They saw how profitable Hearthstone was/is, and to be honest, Magic is simply a better game than Hearthstone both in complexity and replay value.
On the brightside, I don't see a reason MTGO will ever be "unsupported". It will be similar to the game Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. Blizzard still has a small team (I want to say 1-4 people) who work with the game, keep it updated and fix bugs. My only concern would be if Wizards stops adding new sets to MTGO, but I feel like we are still years away from that date.
Who knows, maybe as more people get involved with MTGA they will find interest in the great format of Modern and start playing MTGO
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Spirits
When you show "No changes" month after month, it's just free hype and a 'just in case.'
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
All it takes is a little bit of money for this to be completely incorrect.
This is an issue of this company having two different platforms. Which makes absolutely no sense, from a marketing, managerial or financial aspect. People need to realize we could demand for the Modern format to be on Magic Arena. Just tell Wizards in your next survey "Not Interested Modern cards not on platform" and see how fast Hasbro's shoves it downs WotC's throat to make it happen.
There's an announcement with every major set, as well as after each PT. That works out to 8 announcements per year right now, and once the new PT schedule takes effect it will mean 10 announcements per year. They're quite common.