I think we should agree that 90% of the time, we should bolt/ push the bird.
However, suppose your hand was inquisiton and push, should you cast your inqusition first or just push first?
I have frequently casfed inquisition instead of push against humans as I fear cards like meddling mages/ Thalia's. (This is a little off topic, but I often hold my removal post board not pushing the human's nobles because of how much I fear the other humans out of the human's deck)
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
In most cases, I would still Push the Bird. If you IoK and hit a hand with 2+ three-drops, you're letting them maximize their Bird's mana generation. You also can't even take a four-drop, which means if you don't answer the Bird next turn you're facing the T3 four-drop threat.
The big exception for me is Humans, which has only a playset of threatening three-drops (Mantis Rider), but a ton of threatening two-drops (Mage, Confidant, Thalia, Freebooter, Lieutenant). If you Push the Hierarch on your turn, you open yourself up to some really bad T2 outcomes like a Confidant or a Freebooter taking your last piece of removal. If you IoK instead, the worst case scenario is a Mantis Rider or something like Champion/Lieutenant, and the best case scenario is you take away a key disruptive piece.
And you've just discovered why hard and fast rules never promote optimal game play in a complex game like magic. Sure it's mostly correct to bolt the bird if your deck can actually handle their 3 drops easier than their two drops coming down, you inquisition there (:. That's part of the package of understanding decklists, roles and game plans a lot better and separates average from good players.
And you've just discovered why hard and fast rules never promote optimal game play in a complex game like magic. Sure it's mostly correct to bolt the bird if your deck can actually handle their 3 drops easier than their two drops coming down, you inquisition there (:. That's part of the package of understanding decklists, roles and game plans a lot better and separates average from good players.
I find it werid that I would not push/ bolt a bird. That just seems extremely wrong.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
If you're playing against Infect (I assume Hierarch is a fine bird substitute), 100% IoK. It's probable they have a 2 mana infect creature, or they wanted to play Glistener with protection. It's also advisable to save your removal for the infect creatures anyways. Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't the scenario/deck your post was aimed at. Thought I'd chime in anyways.
Well humans is a deck. Let me run you through a couple of examples of what outcomes could and happen.
Let's say you are sitting on push, IoK... Like in your example.
On the draw you are facing a hierarch. If you push the bird you open yourself up to freebooter followed by mantis rider.
If you Iok you see rider and boots. You probably take the rider since a turn 2 rider swinging for 4 is quite an impressive clock. It's pretty clear I ok is much better here.
If you are on the play... let's say you lost game 1 or 2 and play a land and hold up push. What if they go turn 1 vial... I would think Iok would have been better to pull the vial out and then push the heirarch if there is not something you fear more... but you would know from the IoK...
In short hit them with discard while you can.
Successful people utilize heuristics in everyday life to limit the total number of decisions, therefore maximizing the brain power spent on the most important decisions. For a newer player, learning the heuristic “always bolt the Bird” is a way for them to increase winning percentage. It’s most likely to be correct, and the heuristic allows the player more brain power to foca on other decisions during the match.
Once a player becomes an intermediate, the path to expert play is applying heuristics correctly, while being able to perceive when going against the commonly held belief actually increases their win percentage.
The cases presented with Humans (and Infect) provide a great example of when to break from the heuristic.
Well humans is a deck. Let me run you through a couple of examples of what outcomes could and happen.
Let's say you are sitting on push, IoK... Like in your example.
On the draw you are facing a hierarch. If you push the bird you open yourself up to freebooter followed by mantis rider.
If you Iok you see rider and boots. You probably take the rider since a turn 2 rider swinging for 4 is quite an impressive clock. It's pretty clear I ok is much better here.
If you are on the play... let's say you lost game 1 or 2 and play a land and hold up push. What if they go turn 1 vial... I would think Iok would have been better to pull the vial out and then push the heirarch if there is not something you fear more... but you would know from the IoK...
In short hit them with discard while you can.
I'm not sure if this is correct either, but whenever I play a deck with iok and push, I would 100% bypass the vial and go for their threats. I find I never use k command go hit their vial and try to turn their vial into a card disadvantage that does nothing
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I would almost always remove the mana dork over casting a discard spell. I tend to think of modern as a format where tempo is generally more important than card selection or card advantage. If I am facing down a resolved mana dork on turn 1, it means that I'm already behind on tempo because I am going second, and discard spells are usually tempo disadvantageous (unless of course I happen to get lucky and take their only on-curve play for the next turn).
Against infect, ignoring the Noble Hierarch and saving removal for threats with infect means that I could very well lose to a counter or pump spell that I enabled them to cast with the extra mana.
Against humans, ignoring Noble Hierach allows them to play a 2-drop and a 1-drop the next turn.
There are exceptions to these rules, of course, but in the vast majority of cases I would go by the logic I stated.
So in y'alls example you would be okay with pushing the bird and letting a freebooter take your only removal? That's clearly what I am reading from the above two posts.
It feels like in 90%+ of cases, you kill the mana creature if possible. Even if you TS/IOK them, they could have two or more 3-drops and they get to plow through with their advantage anyway. Plus, if they kept a 3+ heavy hand on the reliance of the mana dork, you set them back considerably by killing it.
If they have 2 then that's fine. Leaves them with 1 after Iok and the removal gets the other one. Only leaving them with a bird.
In your example you push the bird and then next turn Iok one of the threats but get ran over by the second... Still not seeing how your scenario is better.
If you have Push and Discard in hand, you kill the mana dork turn 1, then discard turn 2 and take what you would have taken anyway, but now they're left with an empty board and a wasted turn 1 (and possibly no turn 2 play). As opposed to letting it live, regardless of if they have a good 3 drop, they have access to 3 mana on turn 2, which means multiple spells or a good 3 drop spell ahead of schedule.
I'm almost done trying to express why that logic is completely wrong. Last attempt.
You are suggesting using premium removal on a bird type card and leaving a good 2 drop in their hand in your last example...
Why not use the discard on the good 2 drop and then use the great removal on another threat? Leave them with a bird.
Again... your logic is kill the bird. They play the 2 drop on you and you have nothing for it. I just can't get behind life and game losses as a valuable plan.
I'm done trying to help.
Those may just be different preferential playstyles. I almost exclusively play Snap-Bolt decks, so allowing my opponent to have extra mana is almost never a good thing. So for me, it is almost always better to get rid of their mana dork rather than allow them to untap with 3 mana. Different decks and different matchups may do things differently. Also, if they play a 2 drop, you don't have "nothing" to show for it, you have set their deck back more than a turn by both removing its acceleration (disrupting a core part of their deck) as well as wasting their opening turn (creature with no ETB abilities and never got to untap with it). For the kinds of decks I play, that is a positive tempo swing pretty much every time.
I think when playing a control deck, tempo is more important and I end up using removal spells an mana-efficently as possible. When I see control decks lose to Humans, for example, I usually find it is because the control deck ran out of time instead of being out-valued by the Humans deck.
When playing a combo deck with limited removal, it makes more sense to save removal for creatures that matter the most, like Meddling Mage.
The possibility of a turn 2 Kitesail Freebooter taking one's only removal is very real, but I feel like playing around that possibility just increases the chance of losing to a different set of plays/cards by the opponent.
I think when playing a control deck, tempo is more important and I end up using removal spells an mana-efficently as possible. When I see control decks lose to Humans, for example, I usually find it is because the control deck ran out of time instead of being out-valued by the Humans deck.
Agreed. That's why you can safely leave the bird and 1 for 1 the threats. Then use a sweeper to clear things up.
So discard then removal is better here.
When playing a combo deck with limited removal, it makes more sense to save removal for creatures that matter the most, like Meddling Mage.
Agreed. So Iok the creature that matters most. Worst case scenario... let's say game 2 or 3 you push the bird and they name push with mage then copy it naming another key card.
The possibility of a turn 2 Kitesail Freebooter taking one's only removal is very real, but I feel like playing around that possibility just increases the chance of losing to a different set of plays/cards by the opponent.
I feel you here, but we disagree slightly. I'd rather play to my decks strength. Not using Iok to take out a freebooter and allowing it to take my only removal leaving me with only Iok feels like a lose lose option. Feels like taking the boots then getting hit with the rider one time beats having boots in play getting pumped by heirarch over and over.
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However, suppose your hand was inquisiton and push, should you cast your inqusition first or just push first?
I have frequently casfed inquisition instead of push against humans as I fear cards like meddling mages/ Thalia's. (This is a little off topic, but I often hold my removal post board not pushing the human's nobles because of how much I fear the other humans out of the human's deck)
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
The big exception for me is Humans, which has only a playset of threatening three-drops (Mantis Rider), but a ton of threatening two-drops (Mage, Confidant, Thalia, Freebooter, Lieutenant). If you Push the Hierarch on your turn, you open yourself up to some really bad T2 outcomes like a Confidant or a Freebooter taking your last piece of removal. If you IoK instead, the worst case scenario is a Mantis Rider or something like Champion/Lieutenant, and the best case scenario is you take away a key disruptive piece.
I find it werid that I would not push/ bolt a bird. That just seems extremely wrong.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Let's say you are sitting on push, IoK... Like in your example.
On the draw you are facing a hierarch. If you push the bird you open yourself up to freebooter followed by mantis rider.
If you Iok you see rider and boots. You probably take the rider since a turn 2 rider swinging for 4 is quite an impressive clock. It's pretty clear I ok is much better here.
If you are on the play... let's say you lost game 1 or 2 and play a land and hold up push. What if they go turn 1 vial... I would think Iok would have been better to pull the vial out and then push the heirarch if there is not something you fear more... but you would know from the IoK...
In short hit them with discard while you can.
Once a player becomes an intermediate, the path to expert play is applying heuristics correctly, while being able to perceive when going against the commonly held belief actually increases their win percentage.
The cases presented with Humans (and Infect) provide a great example of when to break from the heuristic.
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I'm not sure if this is correct either, but whenever I play a deck with iok and push, I would 100% bypass the vial and go for their threats. I find I never use k command go hit their vial and try to turn their vial into a card disadvantage that does nothing
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Against infect, ignoring the Noble Hierarch and saving removal for threats with infect means that I could very well lose to a counter or pump spell that I enabled them to cast with the extra mana.
Against humans, ignoring Noble Hierach allows them to play a 2-drop and a 1-drop the next turn.
There are exceptions to these rules, of course, but in the vast majority of cases I would go by the logic I stated.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In your example you push the bird and then next turn Iok one of the threats but get ran over by the second... Still not seeing how your scenario is better.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You are suggesting using premium removal on a bird type card and leaving a good 2 drop in their hand in your last example...
Why not use the discard on the good 2 drop and then use the great removal on another threat? Leave them with a bird.
Again... your logic is kill the bird. They play the 2 drop on you and you have nothing for it. I just can't get behind life and game losses as a valuable plan.
I'm done trying to help.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
When playing a combo deck with limited removal, it makes more sense to save removal for creatures that matter the most, like Meddling Mage.
The possibility of a turn 2 Kitesail Freebooter taking one's only removal is very real, but I feel like playing around that possibility just increases the chance of losing to a different set of plays/cards by the opponent.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
Agreed. That's why you can safely leave the bird and 1 for 1 the threats. Then use a sweeper to clear things up.
So discard then removal is better here.
Agreed. So Iok the creature that matters most. Worst case scenario... let's say game 2 or 3 you push the bird and they name push with mage then copy it naming another key card.
I feel you here, but we disagree slightly. I'd rather play to my decks strength. Not using Iok to take out a freebooter and allowing it to take my only removal leaving me with only Iok feels like a lose lose option. Feels like taking the boots then getting hit with the rider one time beats having boots in play getting pumped by heirarch over and over.