3 torpor orbs? dunno what fantasy land you hail from, but aint nobody got space for that
How much gy hate were people running when ggt dredge was top dog. We’ve already seen the scg kids love humans. I’d absolutely run 3 torpor orb going to an scg event. You can easily make room.
What’s a better card vs humans then? I can promise you if I’m going to an event my deck won’t lose to humans. There is no reason to bring a deck that’s a dig to the best/most played deck. Same way I basically never lost to ds when it was on top.
dredge was also banned, which in part was due to GY hate being mediocre against it.
torpor orb also doesnt deal with 2 out of the 3 most disruptive elements in humans, which is what the decks that are weak to humans care about. so you gotta ask yourself why you arent just playing more removal, sweepers, or cards like ensnaring bridge and worship. defensive creatures is also an alternative.
so there are some decks that cant play orb because it hurts themselves too much, and other decks where it is a poor stalling tactic.
not to mention that no matter how good people may think humans to be, it is still just a small fraction of the field. this is why it is so important to have sideboard cards that have a lot of cross matchup applications. orb hoses humans, and is mediocre to decent against decks like GWx Coco/counters company and primeval titan decks. nothing else comes to mind.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Put 3 torpor orb in your sb and just go crush humans. I realize it’s not actually that easy but honestly torpor orb has been amazing vs humans in my testing. It is ok in some other matchups too but if I know an event like scg is going to be humans heavy it’s worth the spot.
Torpor Orb is okay, but it never really stopped Pod or Splinter Twin, which are also heavily reliant on ETB effects of creatures. One problem is that it is 2 mana, so on the draw you are already pretty late, especially if they have Thalia. Then, it doesn't really stop creatures. Humans are like sorceries that have an effect and after which they deal 1-3 damage/turn. You still need to get rid of the remaining creatures. I guess if you already were ahead, Torpor Orb crushes them. If behind, it doesn't really do that much to get you back.
Torpor Orb certainly helps, but is a bit narrow (mostly for Humans).
Humans has no way to deal with it once it lands though unlike pod/twin. Obviously you don’t play a deck that just loses to humans and then expect to sb 3 orb and win. Your main should be geared with humans in mind too. Humans isn’t close to unbeatable. If we’re going to start saying be need faster cards vs them because they can disrupt us with creatures t2 that’s a stretch.
Yes humans is a small part of the field but if you look at scg results (these are the events where I’d tune my deck this way) it is the majority.
My deck plays bridge, moon, removal, and swarms with tokens. I feel set vs humans but that doesn’t stop me from wanting more post board. This is the meta you want in modern imo. Where you have a very strong idea of the decks you’ll see going into an event and can build/tune you deck to beat them.
Torpor Orb only deals with Kitesail Freebooter and Reflector Mage. I feel like I would rather have another sweeper of whatever color my deck was running. It would be generically better against the field since there isn't a lot else I would bring Torpor Orb in against, but there is quite a bit I would bring a sweeper in for.
Totally forgot it stops champion and lieutenant as well.
As noted, they don't have any way of removing it after its on the battlefield (shuts off Rec Sage and Vithian Renegades), which is pretty satisfying, but the point is it's just not a smart idea to dedicate multiple sideboard slots to a card that only does something against 10% of the field in Modern. If the card won the game on its own against that 10% then you have a better case, but it obviously doesn't do that.
Whilst you're playing one the best shell for it I believe (Jeskai right?), I generally don't see the point. I haven't heard a single person talk about how it's shut down Tron and on it's own it isn't enough to stop Storm. So far, in all my matches it's been nothing but a mild irritation to play against. The sole exception being Bogles where Sphere + Leyline of Sanctity + Teeg is a right pain to play through.
Yeah, UWR control. Its won a single match for me in all the games I've played with it, against Amulet Titan. Tron and Storm players are well aware of hate cards, and many of them have main deck answers for it, so its a nice speed bump, but unless you are closing out the game in a turn or 2 after, its not going to win you the game.
I dont know, I play UWR because I have no faith in permanents as it is, I hate that I need them to try and pull even with Tron, but then I remember that I should be a dog to tron, so why keep fighting it? :]
As noted, they don't have any way of removing it after its on the battlefield (shuts off Rec Sage and Vithian Renegades), which is pretty satisfying, but the point is it's just not a smart idea to dedicate multiple sideboard slots to a card that only does something against 10% of the field in Modern. If the card won the game on its own against that 10% then you have a better case, but it obviously doesn't do that.
When I was playing Human Company and an opponent of mine played this on turn 2, I certainly felt like I lost the game. He was on Zoo (his screenname is Zulander here on mtgs). And he didn't even play Torpor Orb; he played the 2/1 Bird that does a Torpor Orb effect. I thought I could fight through it, but 1/1 Champs, and other creatures that didn't do nothing didn't get me there. I did draw Reflector Mage, but oh wait, shut down!
I think it just depends on what you want to hedge against. What are you willing to lose to? I feel that's what Modern has become, at least for me. I hedge against decks that I don't want to lose to, but then I could just not see those decks. In a Grand Prix setting, you usually want to be doing something that is more flexible and universal or else the diversity can kill you. But then again, opponents who pay serious money to play are less likely to play certain Tier 2 or Tier 3 strategies.
When I loaned Humans to a friend, he asked for 2 Natural State in the SB. I told him that I don't think it is good, but he wanted it, so I did it. He actually told me that he wished he had 3 of them for the next tournament. (but work got the better of him, so he couldn't make it)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think it just depends on what you want to hedge against. What are you willing to lose to? I feel that's what Modern has become, at least for me. I hedge against decks that I don't want to lose to, but then I could just not see those decks. In a Grand Prix setting, you usually want to be doing something that is more flexible and universal or else the diversity can kill you. But then again, opponents who pay serious money to play are less likely to play certain Tier 2 or Tier 3 strategies.
There is something to this. I've geared my deck to be anti-aggro. I dont want to lose to it, but my deck choice and tuning makes me soft to Tron, and its tough to swallow that when they cast garbage like Ulamog and World Breaker.
(Who designed those idiotic cards...please Wizards...)
As noted, they don't have any way of removing it after its on the battlefield (shuts off Rec Sage and Vithian Renegades), which is pretty satisfying, but the point is it's just not a smart idea to dedicate multiple sideboard slots to a card that only does something against 10% of the field in Modern. If the card won the game on its own against that 10% then you have a better case, but it obviously doesn't do that.
When I was playing Human Company and an opponent of mine played this on turn 2, I certainly felt like I lost the game. He was on Zoo (his screenname is Zulander here on mtgs). And he didn't even play Torpor Orb; he played the 2/1 Bird that does a Torpor Orb effect. I thought I could fight through it, but 1/1 Champs, and other creatures that didn't do nothing didn't get me there. I did draw Reflector Mage, but oh wait, shut down!
I think it just depends on what you want to hedge against. What are you willing to lose to? I feel that's what Modern has become, at least for me. I hedge against decks that I don't want to lose to, but then I could just not see those decks. In a Grand Prix setting, you usually want to be doing something that is more flexible and universal or else the diversity can kill you. But then again, opponents who pay serious money to play are less likely to play certain Tier 2 or Tier 3 strategies.
When I loaned Humans to a friend, he asked for 2 Natural State in the SB. I told him that I don't think it is good, but he wanted it, so I did it. He actually told me that he wished he had 3 of them for the next tournament. (but work got the better of him, so he couldn't make it)
I hear what you're saying, but I got interested in this from a purely statistical standpoint. I just did some number crunching and found that the minimum percentage of matchups I want the 15th card in my sideboard in (Emrakul, the Promised End) is right around 20%, and some of the more fringe options that I'm not playing are closer to 15%. The rest of the 14 cards I want in 30% or more of the matchups, and I feel I have all my bases covered adequately. Obviously this is just a small analysis based on one deck, and there are variables I haven't accounted for yet such as how effective each card is in a particular matchup, how much it might hinder your own gameplan, etc, but my assumption is that these numbers are probably fairly good measuring sticks.
Comparing this to Torpor Orb, you can only reasonably expect the card to do anything in right around 12% (per Goldfish and my own data is similar) of matchups (Humans, Titan Shift, Amulet, CoCo, Saheeli), and my assumption is that this is just too low in an open meta and that there are probably other cards that are effective against Humans and a broader range of decks. Obviously you have to make your own assessment when you register your list, and it may be fine or even correct to play 1 high impact/low percentage bullet in your SB, but by playing 3 Torpor Orb as KTROJAN was advocating you're just losing too much against the field I think.
What I'm trying to figure out is why are people worrying about trying to counter everything in the format when there is absolutely no way to do that. If humans are extremely common at your FNM, then running Torpor Orb will help a ton since it's pretty likely they aren't even expecting it. Realistically, the number of people who play modern in a community tends to be around 7-15 people from my experience. That and if it's the first time you're walking in to play modern it's pretty likely you'll either be an outlier and nuke everyone into oblivion, or get steam rolled because every has sideboard hate for whatever strategy you are running. A couple of years back I had a deck that just comboed with Retribution of the Ancients, creating a creature destruction engine that no one could seem to deal with. The next time I played people were hating out on Dredge, which shared a key mechanic with my own deck and therefore my deck was no longer able to win effectively.
Modern isn't a format I'd run to win prizes as much as one to just have some fun in, to be honest. The game got way too into having the best options all the time and the reality is that the best options are often only a hairs breadth above the second best option.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As noted, they don't have any way of removing it after its on the battlefield (shuts off Rec Sage and Vithian Renegades), which is pretty satisfying, but the point is it's just not a smart idea to dedicate multiple sideboard slots to a card that only does something against 10% of the field in Modern. If the card won the game on its own against that 10% then you have a better case, but it obviously doesn't do that.
When I was playing Human Company and an opponent of mine played this on turn 2, I certainly felt like I lost the game. He was on Zoo (his screenname is Zulander here on mtgs). And he didn't even play Torpor Orb; he played the 2/1 Bird that does a Torpor Orb effect. I thought I could fight through it, but 1/1 Champs, and other creatures that didn't do nothing didn't get me there. I did draw Reflector Mage, but oh wait, shut down!
I think it just depends on what you want to hedge against. What are you willing to lose to? I feel that's what Modern has become, at least for me. I hedge against decks that I don't want to lose to, but then I could just not see those decks. In a Grand Prix setting, you usually want to be doing something that is more flexible and universal or else the diversity can kill you. But then again, opponents who pay serious money to play are less likely to play certain Tier 2 or Tier 3 strategies.
When I loaned Humans to a friend, he asked for 2 Natural State in the SB. I told him that I don't think it is good, but he wanted it, so I did it. He actually told me that he wished he had 3 of them for the next tournament. (but work got the better of him, so he couldn't make it)
I hear what you're saying, but I got interested in this from a purely statistical standpoint. I just did some number crunching and found that the minimum percentage of matchups I want the 15th card in my sideboard in (Emrakul, the Promised End) is right around 20%, and some of the more fringe options that I'm not playing are closer to 15%. The rest of the 14 cards I want in 30% or more of the matchups, and I feel I have all my bases covered adequately. Obviously this is just a small analysis based on one deck, and there are variables I haven't accounted for yet such as how effective each card is in a particular matchup, how much it might hinder your own gameplan, etc, but my assumption is that these numbers are probably fairly good measuring sticks.
Comparing this to Torpor Orb, you can only reasonably expect the card to do anything in right around 12% (per Goldfish and my own data is similar) of matchups (Humans, Titan Shift, Amulet, CoCo, Saheeli), and my assumption is that this is just too low in an open meta and that there are probably other cards that are effective against Humans and a broader range of decks. Obviously you have to make your own assessment when you register your list, and it may be fine or even correct to play 1 high impact/low percentage bullet in your SB, but by playing 3 Torpor Orb as KTROJAN was advocating you're just losing too much against the field I think.
Ok but humans at scg events has been by far the highest played deck (day 2 %) so if you know that that changes your “vs the field” calculations.
I stated from the beginning this would be for an scg modern event.
Fun fact, this is from one of our local team members that played the modern seat in Toronto, this was what he faced.
or he could have played 3 cards good against creatures with more applications on top; such as engineered explosives.
i think you are overestimating how good torpor orb is against humans. it made sense in the pod/twin era because they accounted for a quarter of the field and because orb stopped plays that typically ended the game on the spot.
i can get behind the idea of being overly prepared against what some may consider the best deck or the deck to beat. it would just be unwise not to have a solid gameplan against them. whether or not you can or even would want to play orb specifically as anti-humans tech depends on your deck, and there are other options that are just as useful.
if history is anything to go by; at SCG events players are less likely to be playing the perceived best decks. regardless even at the top end if humans is largely represented in day 2 it would be hard pressed to break the 20% mark. which isnt even considering that you need to wade through all the jank on day 1.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
i think you are overestimating how good torpor orb is against humans. it made sense in the pod/twin era because they accounted for a quarter of the field and because orb stopped plays that typically ended the game on the spot.
I could certainly be wrong, but I am not so sure about this. During Pod and Twin, I bought 4 Torpor Orb specifically for those decks. Yet, I feel that I almost never actually put them in my sideboard because they did not do enough. Against Pod, they could just value you out and pump Gavony Township a couple of times for lethal. With Twin, they could bounce it, Spell Snare it, win by just Bolt/Snap/Bolt and 2/1 fliers. I just found other cards to be much better in my opinion.
But as a player who had Torpor Orb played against me when I ran Humans, it is seriously dehabilitating. I didn't scoop, but I quickly learned that 1/1s and 2/2s that have no CIP effect are pretty terrible. They don't win games, to say the least. I personally feel that Torpor Orb hurts Humans much more than those other decks because Humans can't value you out OR aggro you without those CIP effects. They can't.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
against twin orb was pretty lackluster. pod it was a little better, but i agree on your points.
it isnt that torpor orb is not good versus humans, it slows down their most aggressive draws if you can get it down early enough. you can still easily get punked out by a draw involving heirarch, meddling mage, thalia, and mantis rider. it has to be played before humans gets rolling, and subsequent copies are dead draws.
this is all in the context of playing 3-4 in the side to make your humans matchup a slam dunk. some decks could make good use of it, a lot of others couldnt. most could still dedicate that many slots to the matchup, but using cards that are just as useful but more versatile. which has been the guiding principle in modern sideboarding philosophy for years. humans hasnt had the presence or results, even at SCG events, to indicate that has changed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
This is true and my deck was a bit different from Vial Humans lists nowadays. (I ran Human Company, so before Rainbow lands and the Rider) So yeah, there are certainly more cards that are not influenced by it. Having multiples indeed is pretty poor and it by no means is a slam dunk, but if you have other cards, at least theoretically, it may not be bad to hedge against decks that you don't want to lose to.
I played Bogles today at a 1K. I hedged against playing vs. Humans, Hollow One, or Burn. Guess how many I faced? 0, and there were at least 3 Humans and 3 Burn out of 20 players. I did get lucky, matched up against Jeskai Control and Affinity (my 1 friend who I rode with) twice, but the meta is too diverse in my opinion to not just hedge against decks and lose if you face the other decks. Of course, you should become acquainted with the poor matchups too and what needs to happen to win the match, but against a competent (or often incompetent player too) player, you are usually not outplaying them to win in the current Modern.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Of course, you should become acquainted with the poor matchups too and what needs to happen to win the match, but against a competent (or often incompetent player too) player, you are usually not outplaying them to win in the current Modern.
This bit of wisdom very much depends on the deck you're playing. I'd agree with you if we're talking about any sort of prison, combo, or all-in aggro (like Infect or Suicide Bloo). If your deck is highly interactive, like Jeskai, Jund, Grixis Shadow, or even Humans to an extent, the entire point of that kind of deck is to be able to outplay your opponent from behind, since you're usually going to be behind any opponents by the time your deck comes into its own. Humans is the opposite, but similar in principle, since it's more about outplaying your opponent before they can outscale you- but they've got ways to outplay in the late game if they're not too far behind.
Slightly off topic, but what do you think of three format team constructed? I certainly hate it from a perspective of a Modern player:
Chances of watching your favorite format are reduced to a third.
Since one bad deck can be carried by two good ones, it is almost pointless to try to draw conclusions from the top16 lists. The cynical reflex tells me obscuring metagame percentajes and performances is ideal from the point of view of WotC and lead me to dread Team Constructed becoming a thing in GPs.
Players tend to flock to more well-rounded decks and skip on bringing something too new or risky, so it means the diversity actually diminishes.
How much people actually have the resources to build a tier 1 Legacy deck? It seems to me that a big portion of the teams will have a poor man's Modern deck translated to Legacy and have their chances reduced by a third since the beginning.
It is typical of team games to have good players losing due to weaker teammates or bad players blaming them on the losses but given the nature of Team Constructed it isn't possible to cooperate at all between the teammates since they are effectively three solos and the total is not more than the sum of its parts. All in all, the worst of both worlds.
This is true and my deck was a bit different from Vial Humans lists nowadays. (I ran Human Company, so before Rainbow lands and the Rider) So yeah, there are certainly more cards that are not influenced by it. Having multiples indeed is pretty poor and it by no means is a slam dunk, but if you have other cards, at least theoretically, it may not be bad to hedge against decks that you don't want to lose to.
I played Bogles today at a 1K. I hedged against playing vs. Humans, Hollow One, or Burn. Guess how many I faced? 0, and there were at least 3 Humans and 3 Burn out of 20 players. I did get lucky, matched up against Jeskai Control and Affinity (my 1 friend who I rode with) twice, but the meta is too diverse in my opinion to not just hedge against decks and lose if you face the other decks. Of course, you should become acquainted with the poor matchups too and what needs to happen to win the match, but against a competent (or often incompetent player too) player, you are usually not outplaying them to win in the current Modern.
The moral of the story is the same moral that most experiencedl Modern players have been saying for years: In general, you will have more success in Modern mastering 1-2 decks and just playing those decks at events than you will trying to jump around decks to beat the metagame. Trying to metagame at a deck level in Modern does not work because the format is too diverse. Just master a deck and then tune it, especially in the SB and your flex slots, to beat anticipated metagames and opponents. That's why Reid Duke is so frequently successful on BGx no matter how much people say it sucks. That's why Caleb Scherer is so frequently successful on UR Storm no matter how hostile the metagame appears to be. That's why Matt Nass beasted two GP on KCI. That's how Elsik was able to win GP OKC with Lantern. These were good players with extensive reps on their decks of choice leveraging experience and deck decisionmaking to beat a varied field.
This isn't even some secret wisdom at this point. Commentators say it, writers say it, players say it, pros say it. Pick a deck and practice it.
The only exception to this is if there is a clear best deck ala Pod, Twin, Eldrazi, etc. Humans may be in this category but I have my doubts. If there really is a best deck, you should be playing it. But if there isn't such a deck, and I think there are serious doubts about Humans being that deck, then play the 1-2 decks you have mastered and don't jump around so much.
SCG Day 2 was posted, UWR, Affinity, Humans, if UWR doesn't put up multiple top 8s in this meta, it's never going to happen.
Hollow One flopping based on day 2
There's 154 players on day 2. Jeskai Control is only 10% of the field and while the next top 3 decks are favored for them the odds of putting up multiple top 8 performances just aren't that high.
SCG Day 2 was posted, UWR, Affinity, Humans, if UWR doesn't put up multiple top 8s in this meta, it's never going to happen.
Hollow One flopping based on day 2
There's 154 players on day 2. Jeskai Control is only 10% of the field and while the next top 3 decks are favored for them the odds of putting up multiple top 8 performances just aren't that high.
I think his point is that it's as high as it's ever been. But I also understand that the stats are against it happening. We'll see. Looks interesting for that many Jeskai pilots to Day 2.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
SCG Day 2 was posted, UWR, Affinity, Humans, if UWR doesn't put up multiple top 8s in this meta, it's never going to happen.
Hollow One flopping based on day 2
Jeskai just needs a single T8 to meet expected conversion (10.6% Day 2 vs. 12.5% T8 share with 1 showing). It is the likeliest deck to make T8, but with that diversity, no one deck is actually "likely" to make T8. I am much more curious to see the Humans conceesion.
SCG Day 2 was posted, UWR, Affinity, Humans, if UWR doesn't put up multiple top 8s in this meta, it's never going to happen.
Hollow One flopping based on day 2
There's 154 players on day 2. Jeskai Control is only 10% of the field and while the next top 3 decks are favored for them the odds of putting up multiple top 8 performances just aren't that high.
I think his point is that it's as high as it's ever been. But I also understand that the stats are against it happening. We'll see. Looks interesting for that many Jeskai pilots to Day 2.
Yeah, being the most Day 2, with even to favourable match ups with many of the other most represented decks, (and elves as I mentioned a few days ago) this is a meta UWR should be good in.
SCG Day 2 was posted, UWR, Affinity, Humans, if UWR doesn't put up multiple top 8s in this meta, it's never going to happen.
Hollow One flopping based on day 2
There's 154 players on day 2. Jeskai Control is only 10% of the field and while the next top 3 decks are favored for them the odds of putting up multiple top 8 performances just aren't that high.
I think his point is that it's as high as it's ever been. But I also understand that the stats are against it happening. We'll see. Looks interesting for that many Jeskai pilots to Day 2.
Yeah, being the most Day 2, with even to favourable match ups with many of the other most represented decks, (and elves as I mentioned a few days ago) this is a meta UWR should be good in.
And for whatever reason, SCG events seem to be THE PLACE for Jeskai Control to shine. If there's a time for it to have a good showing, it's not going to get much better than this (even if this is ultimately only relevant for the SCG scene, which never sees the west coast).
Kinda depressing to only see 1 Blue Moon. I still love the deck and continue to play it though, whether it is "good" or not.
How much gy hate were people running when ggt dredge was top dog. We’ve already seen the scg kids love humans. I’d absolutely run 3 torpor orb going to an scg event. You can easily make room.
What’s a better card vs humans then? I can promise you if I’m going to an event my deck won’t lose to humans. There is no reason to bring a deck that’s a dig to the best/most played deck. Same way I basically never lost to ds when it was on top.
torpor orb also doesnt deal with 2 out of the 3 most disruptive elements in humans, which is what the decks that are weak to humans care about. so you gotta ask yourself why you arent just playing more removal, sweepers, or cards like ensnaring bridge and worship. defensive creatures is also an alternative.
so there are some decks that cant play orb because it hurts themselves too much, and other decks where it is a poor stalling tactic.
not to mention that no matter how good people may think humans to be, it is still just a small fraction of the field. this is why it is so important to have sideboard cards that have a lot of cross matchup applications. orb hoses humans, and is mediocre to decent against decks like GWx Coco/counters company and primeval titan decks. nothing else comes to mind.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Humans has no way to deal with it once it lands though unlike pod/twin. Obviously you don’t play a deck that just loses to humans and then expect to sb 3 orb and win. Your main should be geared with humans in mind too. Humans isn’t close to unbeatable. If we’re going to start saying be need faster cards vs them because they can disrupt us with creatures t2 that’s a stretch.
Yes humans is a small part of the field but if you look at scg results (these are the events where I’d tune my deck this way) it is the majority.
My deck plays bridge, moon, removal, and swarms with tokens. I feel set vs humans but that doesn’t stop me from wanting more post board. This is the meta you want in modern imo. Where you have a very strong idea of the decks you’ll see going into an event and can build/tune you deck to beat them.
Torpor Orb only deals with Kitesail Freebooter and Reflector Mage. I feel like I would rather have another sweeper of whatever color my deck was running. It would be generically better against the field since there isn't a lot else I would bring Torpor Orb in against, but there is quite a bit I would bring a sweeper in for.Totally forgot it stops champion and lieutenant as well.
Yeah, UWR control. Its won a single match for me in all the games I've played with it, against Amulet Titan. Tron and Storm players are well aware of hate cards, and many of them have main deck answers for it, so its a nice speed bump, but unless you are closing out the game in a turn or 2 after, its not going to win you the game.
I dont know, I play UWR because I have no faith in permanents as it is, I hate that I need them to try and pull even with Tron, but then I remember that I should be a dog to tron, so why keep fighting it? :]
Spirits
When I was playing Human Company and an opponent of mine played this on turn 2, I certainly felt like I lost the game. He was on Zoo (his screenname is Zulander here on mtgs). And he didn't even play Torpor Orb; he played the 2/1 Bird that does a Torpor Orb effect. I thought I could fight through it, but 1/1 Champs, and other creatures that didn't do nothing didn't get me there. I did draw Reflector Mage, but oh wait, shut down!
I think it just depends on what you want to hedge against. What are you willing to lose to? I feel that's what Modern has become, at least for me. I hedge against decks that I don't want to lose to, but then I could just not see those decks. In a Grand Prix setting, you usually want to be doing something that is more flexible and universal or else the diversity can kill you. But then again, opponents who pay serious money to play are less likely to play certain Tier 2 or Tier 3 strategies.
When I loaned Humans to a friend, he asked for 2 Natural State in the SB. I told him that I don't think it is good, but he wanted it, so I did it. He actually told me that he wished he had 3 of them for the next tournament. (but work got the better of him, so he couldn't make it)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)There is something to this. I've geared my deck to be anti-aggro. I dont want to lose to it, but my deck choice and tuning makes me soft to Tron, and its tough to swallow that when they cast garbage like Ulamog and World Breaker.
(Who designed those idiotic cards...please Wizards...)
Spirits
Comparing this to Torpor Orb, you can only reasonably expect the card to do anything in right around 12% (per Goldfish and my own data is similar) of matchups (Humans, Titan Shift, Amulet, CoCo, Saheeli), and my assumption is that this is just too low in an open meta and that there are probably other cards that are effective against Humans and a broader range of decks. Obviously you have to make your own assessment when you register your list, and it may be fine or even correct to play 1 high impact/low percentage bullet in your SB, but by playing 3 Torpor Orb as KTROJAN was advocating you're just losing too much against the field I think.
Modern isn't a format I'd run to win prizes as much as one to just have some fun in, to be honest. The game got way too into having the best options all the time and the reality is that the best options are often only a hairs breadth above the second best option.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Ok but humans at scg events has been by far the highest played deck (day 2 %) so if you know that that changes your “vs the field” calculations.
I stated from the beginning this would be for an scg modern event.
Fun fact, this is from one of our local team members that played the modern seat in Toronto, this was what he faced.
3 humans, 1 affinity, 1 grixis control, 1 elves, 1 burn, and 1 Jund
So if I were in his seat I’d have brought in orb 37.5% of my matches. Small sample size but just saying.
i think you are overestimating how good torpor orb is against humans. it made sense in the pod/twin era because they accounted for a quarter of the field and because orb stopped plays that typically ended the game on the spot.
i can get behind the idea of being overly prepared against what some may consider the best deck or the deck to beat. it would just be unwise not to have a solid gameplan against them. whether or not you can or even would want to play orb specifically as anti-humans tech depends on your deck, and there are other options that are just as useful.
if history is anything to go by; at SCG events players are less likely to be playing the perceived best decks. regardless even at the top end if humans is largely represented in day 2 it would be hard pressed to break the 20% mark. which isnt even considering that you need to wade through all the jank on day 1.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I could certainly be wrong, but I am not so sure about this. During Pod and Twin, I bought 4 Torpor Orb specifically for those decks. Yet, I feel that I almost never actually put them in my sideboard because they did not do enough. Against Pod, they could just value you out and pump Gavony Township a couple of times for lethal. With Twin, they could bounce it, Spell Snare it, win by just Bolt/Snap/Bolt and 2/1 fliers. I just found other cards to be much better in my opinion.
But as a player who had Torpor Orb played against me when I ran Humans, it is seriously dehabilitating. I didn't scoop, but I quickly learned that 1/1s and 2/2s that have no CIP effect are pretty terrible. They don't win games, to say the least. I personally feel that Torpor Orb hurts Humans much more than those other decks because Humans can't value you out OR aggro you without those CIP effects. They can't.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)it isnt that torpor orb is not good versus humans, it slows down their most aggressive draws if you can get it down early enough. you can still easily get punked out by a draw involving heirarch, meddling mage, thalia, and mantis rider. it has to be played before humans gets rolling, and subsequent copies are dead draws.
this is all in the context of playing 3-4 in the side to make your humans matchup a slam dunk. some decks could make good use of it, a lot of others couldnt. most could still dedicate that many slots to the matchup, but using cards that are just as useful but more versatile. which has been the guiding principle in modern sideboarding philosophy for years. humans hasnt had the presence or results, even at SCG events, to indicate that has changed.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I played Bogles today at a 1K. I hedged against playing vs. Humans, Hollow One, or Burn. Guess how many I faced? 0, and there were at least 3 Humans and 3 Burn out of 20 players. I did get lucky, matched up against Jeskai Control and Affinity (my 1 friend who I rode with) twice, but the meta is too diverse in my opinion to not just hedge against decks and lose if you face the other decks. Of course, you should become acquainted with the poor matchups too and what needs to happen to win the match, but against a competent (or often incompetent player too) player, you are usually not outplaying them to win in the current Modern.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)This bit of wisdom very much depends on the deck you're playing. I'd agree with you if we're talking about any sort of prison, combo, or all-in aggro (like Infect or Suicide Bloo). If your deck is highly interactive, like Jeskai, Jund, Grixis Shadow, or even Humans to an extent, the entire point of that kind of deck is to be able to outplay your opponent from behind, since you're usually going to be behind any opponents by the time your deck comes into its own. Humans is the opposite, but similar in principle, since it's more about outplaying your opponent before they can outscale you- but they've got ways to outplay in the late game if they're not too far behind.
Slightly off topic, but what do you think of three format team constructed? I certainly hate it from a perspective of a Modern player:
The moral of the story is the same moral that most experiencedl Modern players have been saying for years: In general, you will have more success in Modern mastering 1-2 decks and just playing those decks at events than you will trying to jump around decks to beat the metagame. Trying to metagame at a deck level in Modern does not work because the format is too diverse. Just master a deck and then tune it, especially in the SB and your flex slots, to beat anticipated metagames and opponents. That's why Reid Duke is so frequently successful on BGx no matter how much people say it sucks. That's why Caleb Scherer is so frequently successful on UR Storm no matter how hostile the metagame appears to be. That's why Matt Nass beasted two GP on KCI. That's how Elsik was able to win GP OKC with Lantern. These were good players with extensive reps on their decks of choice leveraging experience and deck decisionmaking to beat a varied field.
This isn't even some secret wisdom at this point. Commentators say it, writers say it, players say it, pros say it. Pick a deck and practice it.
The only exception to this is if there is a clear best deck ala Pod, Twin, Eldrazi, etc. Humans may be in this category but I have my doubts. If there really is a best deck, you should be playing it. But if there isn't such a deck, and I think there are serious doubts about Humans being that deck, then play the 1-2 decks you have mastered and don't jump around so much.
Hollow One flopping based on day 2
Spirits
There's 154 players on day 2. Jeskai Control is only 10% of the field and while the next top 3 decks are favored for them the odds of putting up multiple top 8 performances just aren't that high.
I think his point is that it's as high as it's ever been. But I also understand that the stats are against it happening. We'll see. Looks interesting for that many Jeskai pilots to Day 2.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Jeskai just needs a single T8 to meet expected conversion (10.6% Day 2 vs. 12.5% T8 share with 1 showing). It is the likeliest deck to make T8, but with that diversity, no one deck is actually "likely" to make T8. I am much more curious to see the Humans conceesion.
Yeah, being the most Day 2, with even to favourable match ups with many of the other most represented decks, (and elves as I mentioned a few days ago) this is a meta UWR should be good in.
Spirits
And for whatever reason, SCG events seem to be THE PLACE for Jeskai Control to shine. If there's a time for it to have a good showing, it's not going to get much better than this (even if this is ultimately only relevant for the SCG scene, which never sees the west coast).
Kinda depressing to only see 1 Blue Moon. I still love the deck and continue to play it though, whether it is "good" or not.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate