You were a fool to play anything else while it was legal period. If your options are grind out a game with Jund or Abzan, fire an inconsistent combo like Grishoalbrand, or play a combo deck that kills you if you dare tap out past turn 3, but also plays counter magic, the choice seems fairly obvious.
Twin was not new, did not receive much update, and had been around in the format since the beginning. It was not some mysterious unknown quantity that people didn't pick up on. Everyone knew the deck and still didn't choose to play it in the same numbers every other "diversity ban" Modern has ever had. If a deck was truly overpowered and broken, 30-40%+ of the format would be playing it. Not 10%. But again, just more revisionist history and misrepresenting the past.
Also the Tron player punted hard by not exiling a land.
If too much linearity is the complaint, we should look to Legacy and see how their interactive decks work so well.
Firstly, Death's Shadow is the Delver of Modern. Right now, its surprisingly not doing as good as it was pre un-bannings of Jace and BBE. This is my reasoning that Street Wraith should not be banned due to Hallow One because it would kill Death's Shadow, which is a very skill intensive interactive deck. Traditional UR Delver, or pretty much any type of non- Death's Shadow tempo/ turbo-xerox pretty much can't exist in tier 1 Modern due to the tools that make the Legacy decks immensely powerful (Wasteland, Daze, Stifle).
I think the better comparison to Legacy would be the 4c Control decks and the Miracles decks. I think the first interesting thing is how absent counter magic really is besides Force of Will. People always say that counter magic is weak in Modern, but is counter magic just bad in general unless its free? I don't think that FoW will ever be reprinted in Standard, so I don't think that we should hope for that, but I don't think that a UU spell like Counterspell would even help blue based control decks. Cards like Logic Knot and Mana Leak are legal, and yes they are very different than Counterspell, but how relevant is the unconditional counterspell against the current fast meta of Humans and Hallow One? This is a loaded question and there are much more implications on Counterpell vs Mana Leak, but I think that Counterpell is not the answer.
The most glaring thing I see when it comes to Legacy control decks is how much better their cantrips are than Modern. Lets all be honest, Serum Visions is trash and I know most of the time it doesn't feel that great casting it when playing a control deck. I truly believe that if control decks were more consistent, Modern has the answers it needs. Look at all the removal in Legacy and you see that its all pretty much the same as Modern except Swords to Plowshares is traded with Path to Exile, which is not the biggest deal. I believe The main reason Legacy doesn't run Counterspell is because its simply less efficient to the abundance of the 1 CMC removal that both Legacy and Modern share.
So my question is, why is Preordain and Ponder still banned? There's one blue based tier 1 combo deck, and that's Storm. In a meta full of Humans and Death's Shadow (presumably Death's Shadow would rise due to Ponder or Preordain unbaning), how could Storm really thrive? I see Ponder or Preordain buffing fair decks much more than unfair decks. I'd also love to see a printing of Portent or Predict to give more opportunities to gain card advantage.
Lastly, I think it would be fine for Wotc to at least experiment with unbaning Stoneforge Mystic. If it serves to be too good or push out too many decks, then they can just reban it like they did with Golgari Grave Troll. I think that a short term experiment would be beneficial to the longevity of Magic's most popular format. Modern doesn't have Umezawa's Jitte and I believe that control decks really need efficient low cost threats that can also be answers.
That's the Teshar Loops combo deck. Honestly, Helm of the Host is pretty easily abused and I'm thinking people might be overlooking sagas not realizing that they are very easy to manipulate. Phyrexian Scriptures is a turn 4 board lock. I don't know how many people are brewing in modern with these things, but manipulating and passing around counters seems like a pretty solid strategy when those tools are History of Benalia, Phyrexian Scriptures, Power Conduit, Hex Parasite, Thrull Parasite, and Timespinning. I'm still sort of toying with Time of Ice because that one is really hilarious. There's also proliferate, but there aren't a lot of good proliferate cards outside maybe the draw 2 one.
FYI, if you can add a counter while it's the opponents turn, that part of the saga goes off. It's like having a planeswalker that you can activate on your opponents turn.
We're talking about Modern, right? What equipment have you seen played in the last year, outside of Cranial Plating and Puresteel Combo? Moreover, which equipment that costs 4 to play and 5 to equip? In what world is that a viable Modern strategy?
As to Sagas, if you're using bad cards to make other bad cards less bad, your deck is probably bad. Caveat to this being, obviously, Lantern Control. Brew all you like, but I don't foresee Sagas having a place in Modern, which is a shame because I like the concept. Maybe History of Benalia, but I feel tokens has better 3 mana stuff to do.
Synergy decks are the harder ones to evaluate a lot of the time. I don't know if I'm trying to hard with the sagas, but they are better than they look. Plus you Just literally posted an example of a deck no one thought would ever work.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If too much linearity is the complaint, we should look to Legacy and see how their interactive decks work so well.
Firstly, Death's Shadow is the Delver of Modern. Right now, its surprisingly not doing as good as it was pre un-bannings of Jace and BBE. This is my reasoning that Street Wraith should not be banned due to Hallow One because it would kill Death's Shadow, which is a very skill intensive interactive deck. Traditional UR Delver, or pretty much any type of non- Death's Shadow tempo/ turbo-xerox pretty much can't exist in tier 1 Modern due to the tools that make the Legacy decks immensely powerful (Wasteland, Daze, Stifle).
I think the better comparison to Legacy would be the 4c Control decks and the Miracles decks. I think the first interesting thing is how absent counter magic really is besides Force of Will. People always say that counter magic is weak in Modern, but is counter magic just bad in general unless its free? I don't think that FoW will ever be reprinted in Standard, so I don't think that we should hope for that, but I don't think that a UU spell like Counterspell would even help blue based control decks. Cards like Logic Knot and Mana Leak are legal, and yes they are very different than Counterspell, but how relevant is the unconditional counterspell against the current fast meta of Humans and Hallow One? This is a loaded question and there are much more implications on Counterpell vs Mana Leak, but I think that Counterpell is not the answer.
The most glaring thing I see when it comes to Legacy control decks is how much better their cantrips are than Modern. Lets all be honest, Serum Visions is trash and I know most of the time it doesn't feel that great casting it when playing a control deck. I truly believe that if control decks were more consistent, Modern has the answers it needs. Look at all the removal in Legacy and you see that its all pretty much the same as Modern except Swords to Plowshares is traded with Path to Exile, which is not the biggest deal. I believe The main reason Legacy doesn't run Counterspell is because its simply less efficient to the abundance of the 1 CMC removal that both Legacy and Modern share.
So my question is, why is Preordain and Ponder still banned? There's one blue based tier 1 combo deck, and that's Storm. In a meta full of Humans and Death's Shadow (presumably Death's Shadow would rise due to Ponder or Preordain unbaning), how could Storm really thrive? I see Ponder or Preordain buffing fair decks much more than unfair decks. I'd also love to see a printing of Portent or Predict to give more opportunities to gain card advantage.
Lastly, I think it would be fine for Wotc to at least experiment with unbaning Stoneforge Mystic. If it serves to be too good or push out too many decks, then they can just reban it like they did with Golgari Grave Troll. I think that a short term experiment would be beneficial to the longevity of Magic's most popular format. Modern doesn't have Umezawa's Jitte and I believe that control decks really need efficient low cost threats that can also be answers.
Agreed generally, but I think you're underselling Counterspell. Logic Knot is good enough that 3 is common in decks with enough cantrips and fetches to support it, despite multiples being clunky as hell (especially with Snapcaster). I also think it's a trap to look fore The One Answer that will put Modern Control to exactly the right power level (whatever that may be), and dismiss cards that don't fit the bill. Counterspell is a good upgrade, which is good enough for me.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
If too much linearity is the complaint, we should look to Legacy and see how their interactive decks work so well.
Firstly, Death's Shadow is the Delver of Modern. Right now, its surprisingly not doing as good as it was pre un-bannings of Jace and BBE. This is my reasoning that Street Wraith should not be banned due to Hallow One because it would kill Death's Shadow, which is a very skill intensive interactive deck. Traditional UR Delver, or pretty much any type of non- Death's Shadow tempo/ turbo-xerox pretty much can't exist in tier 1 Modern due to the tools that make the Legacy decks immensely powerful (Wasteland, Daze, Stifle).
I think the better comparison to Legacy would be the 4c Control decks and the Miracles decks. I think the first interesting thing is how absent counter magic really is besides Force of Will. People always say that counter magic is weak in Modern, but is counter magic just bad in general unless its free? I don't think that FoW will ever be reprinted in Standard, so I don't think that we should hope for that, but I don't think that a UU spell like Counterspell would even help blue based control decks. Cards like Logic Knot and Mana Leak are legal, and yes they are very different than Counterspell, but how relevant is the unconditional counterspell against the current fast meta of Humans and Hallow One? This is a loaded question and there are much more implications on Counterpell vs Mana Leak, but I think that Counterpell is not the answer.
The most glaring thing I see when it comes to Legacy control decks is how much better their cantrips are than Modern. Lets all be honest, Serum Visions is trash and I know most of the time it doesn't feel that great casting it when playing a control deck. I truly believe that if control decks were more consistent, Modern has the answers it needs. Look at all the removal in Legacy and you see that its all pretty much the same as Modern except Swords to Plowshares is traded with Path to Exile, which is not the biggest deal. I believe The main reason Legacy doesn't run Counterspell is because its simply less efficient to the abundance of the 1 CMC removal that both Legacy and Modern share.
So my question is, why is Preordain and Ponder still banned? There's one blue based tier 1 combo deck, and that's Storm. In a meta full of Humans and Death's Shadow (presumably Death's Shadow would rise due to Ponder or Preordain unbaning), how could Storm really thrive? I see Ponder or Preordain buffing fair decks much more than unfair decks. I'd also love to see a printing of Portent or Predict to give more opportunities to gain card advantage.
Lastly, I think it would be fine for Wotc to at least experiment with unbaning Stoneforge Mystic. If it serves to be too good or push out too many decks, then they can just reban it like they did with Golgari Grave Troll. I think that a short term experiment would be beneficial to the longevity of Magic's most popular format. Modern doesn't have Umezawa's Jitte and I believe that control decks really need efficient low cost threats that can also be answers.
Agreed generally, but I think you're underselling Counterspell. Logic Knot is good enough that 3 is common in decks with enough cantrips and fetches to support it, despite multiples being clunky as hell (especially with Snapcaster). I also think it's a trap to look fore The One Answer that will put Modern Control to exactly the right power level (whatever that may be), and dismiss cards that don't fit the bill. Counterspell is a good upgrade, which is good enough for me.
I posted before, but I agree and its important to know that there is no "One Answer." Here's what I said before:
I think interactive decks suffer in modern not because of a single "missing part" but from a combination of many: actual good cantrips (Ponder/ Preordain/ Brainstorm), Efficient universal removal (Swords to Plowshares), efficient counter magic (Force of Will/ Counterspell), and efficient low cost threats that can also be answers (Stoneforge Mystic + Umezawa's Jitte/ Deathrite Shaman ).
Re: Twin talk
As I've said before, if the Twin defenders actually made an evidence-driven argument for Twin's unbanning that addressed the reasons it was banned in the first place, I am sure more people would be open to considering the card. This also includes acknowledging opposing sides of the argument even if it is not to one's benefit. For instance, we already know that Twin had 50/50+ matchups against the best decks in Modern (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-the-new-modern-by-the-numbers/), so denying this feels disingenuous and/or uninformed. Twin players need that want this card unbanned need to seriously address the diversity reasons behind the ban. Here's where all of you can start:
1. Definitely dropped. Today, you basically have Blue Moon and Jeskai. As opposed to Twin variants, Delver variants, UW/Grixis/Jeskai Midrange and Control variants, Blue Moon, and blue-based Scapeshift.
Although I believe this is true, this claim needs hard numbers to back it up, not just a few sentences. I would start by comparing the 2017-2018 share of blue decks in the following categories to the share of Twin and non-Twin blue decks in those categories throughout 2015. Incidentally, I have those 2015 numbers already from an unpublished analysis project. See the spoiler below for what constituted a non-Twin blue deck (tempo, midrange, control, control/combo hybrids only) in 2015:
4C Control
4C Gifts
Bant Control
Bant Midrange
Blue Moon
BUG Delver
BUG Midrange
Cruel Control
Esper Control
Esper Delve
Esper Delver
Esper Gifts
Esper Midrange
Eternal Command
Faeries
Grixis Control
Grixis Delver
Grixis Midrange
Grixis White
Jeskai Black
Miracles
Mono U Control
Mono U Tron
Polymorph
Possibility Storm
Pyromancer's Ascension
RUG Delver
RUG Midrange
Scapeshift
Sultai Control
Tezzerator
Time Walk
UB Control
UB Delver
UB Tezzeret
UG Midrange
UR Delver
UW Control
UW Delver
UW Midrange
UW Tempo
UW Tron
UWR Ascendancy
UWR Control
UWR Delver
UWR Gifts
UWR Midrange
This means the share of non-Twin blue decks has actually increased, but the TOTAL share of non-Twin blue decks PLUS Twin decks has decreased. For instance, non-Twin blue was only 8.6% of T8s in 2015 but is now up to 15.6% in 2018. But the total T8 blue share between Twin/non-Twin dropped from 23.8% in 2015 to 15.6% in 2018.
Stop pretending this is an open and shut issue where the pro-Twin group has found some secret wisdom in the Twin unban that no one else has considered. Treat this like a serious and ambiguous question and persuade your audience.
Re: answers in Modern
Better countermagic would help, but a lot of the "better answers" arguments tend to drift into "I want my control deck to have 50/50+ matchups across the board." This is not happening in Modern. The only reason it is more permissible in Legacy is that Wizards has a much more hands-off approach to Legacy due to its dramatically reduced tournament support. I guarantee if Legacy was a PT format, we would see bans to hamstring the DRS/FoW/Brainstorm engine that ensures a swath of top decks have positive matchups against most other competing decks. Thankfully, there are probably free/costed countermagic designs that improve some of Ux Control's matchups while not making the deck too strong. Standard-appropriate FoW variants would be a good start (e.g. some mix between FoW and Prohibit). Even the higher-cost broken cards like Karn and H1 are enabled by lower-cost engines such as Stirrings, Map, Inquiry, etc.
Re: unbans
SFM shouldn't even be a question at this point. Although it will certainly not be a cure-all for Modern issues, it should give controlling and grindy decks an additional edge against aggressive ones. There's very few scenarios where this breaks anything in the format (e.g. does not go into a Tier 1 deck) which should make it an easy unban. Preordain is a little dicier because it does improve Storm, which is a top-tier combo deck. It also gives edges to all the decks currently playing SV, which includes both the fair decks and stuff like Taking Turns, Ux Prison, Ad Naus, etc. This means it has an uncertain impact on the format. I'm inclined to say it's probably still fine, but it's not an open and shut issue. Unlike SFM. SFM is about as open and shut as we can get with an unban at this point.
Incidentally, here's the 2015 linear vs. non-linear breakdown. Notice we see the exact same linear/non-linear trend we're seeing today. Also notice that no one seemed to care as much back then but today the numbers and trends, which are virtually identical, are cause for alarm.
When plotted as an area graph, it's virtually identical to the graph Lejoon posted describing our current metagame:
That is very informative. Thanks for showing that. Was not able to comment yesterday because I was dead tired. Anyway, linear decks seems to have indeed become stronger. What did happen in June that caused linear decks to increase in %... is that the time that Twin got banned?
As for Twin debate... it's like beating a dead horse.. don't want to add into it.. but if ever Twin becomes unbanned. I will be selling my playset of Splinter Twin and Spellskite once prices have risen again - to get some extra cash. ^^
I really don't like the idea of free counterspells as being necessary for control to beat combo. If you want to beat combo play discard, since that's what this format has, or a critical mass of countermagic.
Beating combo decks is easy. Play enough countermagic and sideboard some discard, be sure to play a decent clock.
The problem is that when you want a control deck to beat combo (or on a related note, big mana) in modern you have to give up some points in aggro matchups. Go figure - control loses to aggro, news at 11.
Modern is kind of a weird format in that control decks often have favorable aggro matchups but lose to combo decks. Because they don't play much countermagic.
I really don't like the idea of free counterspells as being necessary for control to beat combo. If you want to beat combo play discard, since that's what this format has, or a critical mass of countermagic.
Beating combo decks is easy. Play enough countermagic and sideboard some discard, be sure to play a decent clock.
The problem is that when you want a control deck to beat combo (or on a related note, big mana) in modern you have to give up some points in aggro matchups. Go figure - control loses to aggro, news at 11.
Modern is kind of a weird format in that control decks often have favorable aggro matchups but lose to combo decks. Because they don't play much countermagic.
Combo specifically is not the problem in Modern. There is only 2 decks right now that would be considered tier 1 that are combo decks, Storm and KCI (and Titanshift probably), and both fold to cards like Rest in Peace and many other silver bullet cards that Modern has
I really don't like the idea of free counterspells as being necessary for control to beat combo. If you want to beat combo play discard, since that's what this format has, or a critical mass of countermagic.
Beating combo decks is easy. Play enough countermagic and sideboard some discard, be sure to play a decent clock.
The problem is that when you want a control deck to beat combo (or on a related note, big mana) in modern you have to give up some points in aggro matchups. Go figure - control loses to aggro, news at 11.
Modern is kind of a weird format in that control decks often have favorable aggro matchups but lose to combo decks. Because they don't play much countermagic.
I agree with Pistallion that there's not really a great need to regulate combo in at the moment. But that's because there are ~12 combo cards on the banlist, with others that aren't combo cards but were banned because of combo decks (Ponder and Preordain). A big reason for that, IMO, is the format's weak permission, coupled with the fact that the leading free counterspell is only playable by degenerate combo decks in the first place.
Personally I think stronger permission would make for a better, more robust meta with stronger self-regulation outside the ban list.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I'd like to see just better permission spells that are fair. Cheating on mana more is not something modern needs in my opinion. Just print counterspell or memory lapse, then see what happens -- measured approach.
I think I'd like memory lapse at this point since it would not be absurdly strong in standard.
I dont think Counters are the issue. We could with the searching/draw/filtering we have now, run a deck with counters always being present in our hands.
The issue is, how do you turn the corner, or fight against the uncounterable, or prevent the ramp to uncounterable, or move forward with your own plan (free counters?) without losing on the spot.
That fundamentally is why Twin was legit, and anything since, is not.
My thought is that a slightly better card advantage spell and a slightly better permission suite would allow you to play worse win conditions, since you could protect them better. So just last one turn longer so Clique+Colonnade (or tarpit, or whatever) can close it out, for example.
And I think that'd be more fun too for control players.
the most likely approach is wotc does nothing directly and tries to slow the format down through other means.
preordain would be a welcomed upgrade, but ive made it known that i think it is an unlikely unban.
portent would be pretty cool, though im not sure how that would make it into the format.
We saw an immediate slow down with Jace/BBE unbanned, and....its just not going to stick.
The most effective way to play the game is as quickly as possible, as consistently as possible, be trying to swing for lethal (since you know, creatures) on Turn 3 or 4 if gold fishing.
Obviously games dont simply end at turn 4, but when your entire reason for existing is to drag out past Turn 4 (hi Jace) you are objectively, playing a weaker strategy.
No, try instead to get 2+ 4/4's into play on Turn 1. Try instead, to have a team of uncounterable, disruptive, self pumping tribal creatures swing lethal on Turn 4, after turning off your interaction.
Thats the 'right' way to play Modern right now.
The only way to slow down, is to have a reasonable way to win, on the spot, at later turns than 3, and have that way be something that can be interacted with, or the win con also play's into a tempo/interactive game plan.
I mean I'd love to be wrong, but the numbers dont bear out any other conclusion at this point.
I dont think Counters are the issue. We could with the searching/draw/filtering we have now, run a deck with counters always being present in our hands.
The issue is, how do you turn the corner, or fight against the uncounterable, or prevent the ramp to uncounterable, or move forward with your own plan (free counters?) without losing on the spot.
That fundamentally is why Twin was legit, and anything since, is not.
I see this thought (and variations on it) all the time, and it's a huge case of single-cause fallacy. People pick a) selection, b) disruption, or c) finishers and stake out their ground that their Chosen Control Pillar is the one that matters. (The size of each side shifting with meta and mood.) Then we generally see the different sides battle it out for a few pages with no one making any progress.
This happens because in a way, each side is right: any one of those pillars is completely capable of propelling at least one Control deck into Modern Pillar status. The fallacy is in assuming that because it's true of one of them, the others can't be important.
Twin did make reactive Blue a thing, since the combo finish made up for the poor permission. But deciding that that means "Only a New Threat Will Save Us" is way off base. Twin is just a particularly sticky example, since it's on the banlist and has actually participated in Modern, rather than cards that have never been part of the format or homebrew thought experiments. But Grixis, Jeskai, and UW being in and out of the upper tiers for a while with various UR lists pushing up as well indicates that even if a better threat is sufficient, it's not necessary, and it says nothing about the other elements of Control being insufficient.
Personally I don't care which pillar WotC uses, but the selection pillar is the one that has the most risk since of the three, it would most empower linear decks.
My thought is that a slightly better card advantage spell and a slightly better permission suite would allow you to play worse win conditions, since you could protect them better. So just last one turn longer so Clique+Colonnade (or tarpit, or whatever) can close it out, for example.
My thought is that a slightly better card advantage spell and a slightly better permission suite would allow you to play worse win conditions, since you could protect them better. So just last one turn longer so Clique+Colonnade (or tarpit, or whatever) can close it out, for example.
What would that even look like though?
I hesitate to devolve into card design in these threads but reprints of counterspell and memory lapse would be a start, and an instant speed compulsive research might work for the mid-game CA that's pretty lacking. Fact or Fiction could easily be printed and would not be broken.
Could add some cost reduction counterspells (e.g. gets cheaper for more spells cast by opponents), possibly print Forbid, plenty of options. Could even just print Force spike.
With Field of ruin, I am way less concerned about cavern of souls. If you want to be resilient to Cavern it's fairly easy to build that way now.
The key is probably that stuff should be done incrementally -- print counterspell and wait, print FoF and wait, etc.
My opinion is that Answers have finally been completely eclipsed by threats, and card draw has been generally nerfed too hard, so it's time to let the pendulum swing a little back the other direction. But with caution.
I dont think Counters are the issue. We could with the searching/draw/filtering we have now, run a deck with counters always being present in our hands.
The issue is, how do you turn the corner, or fight against the uncounterable, or prevent the ramp to uncounterable, or move forward with your own plan (free counters?) without losing on the spot.
That fundamentally is why Twin was legit, and anything since, is not.
I see this thought (and variations on it) all the time, and it's a huge case of single-cause fallacy. People pick a) selection, b) disruption, or c) finishers and stake out their ground that their Chosen Control Pillar is the one that matters. (The size of each side shifting with meta and mood.) Then we generally see the different sides battle it out for a few pages with no one making any progress.
This happens because in a way, each side is right: any one of those pillars is completely capable of propelling at least one Control deck into Modern Pillar status. The fallacy is in assuming that because it's true of one of them, the others can't be important.
Twin did make reactive Blue a thing, since the combo finish made up for the poor permission. But deciding that that means "Only a New Threat Will Save Us" is way off base. Twin is just a particularly sticky example, since it's on the banlist and has actually participated in Modern, rather than cards that have never been part of the format or homebrew thought experiments. But Grixis, Jeskai, and UW being in and out of the upper tiers for a while with various UR lists pushing up as well indicates that even if a better threat is sufficient, it's not necessary, and it says nothing about the other elements of Control being insufficient.
Personally I don't care which pillar WotC uses, but the selection pillar is the one that has the most risk since of the three, it would most empower linear decks.
I've seen you in many of the control threads, I know I dont feel a lack of answers in UWR, or a lack of Selection with Search, and Jace, and the few Cantrips I even run. I mean Cryptic is a house. I dont feel I'm ever out of answers during a game, obviously you may stumble, not hit lands, and so on, but against grinding decks Card Advantage and Selection are not going to save us, when we do not have inevitability, and by that I mean TRUE and FINAL inevitability.
I saw Blue Moon Breach LOSE after resolving Breach, because the opponent could handle the loss of 6 permanents. Thats not inevitable, it can be back breaking sure, but even that, is not enough in Modern. How sick is that?
I just do not think the answers we have now are the issue. I've had many games go VERY long, you are playing Ux Mana Denial now, stalling out games, but if that was sufficient, you should be able to close the door yes?
I dont know. You are probably right that I can easily look over at the ban list and go 'if only there was a solution' because it IS a solution, and it WOULD make URx Tier 1, on the spot.
True-Name Nemesis is a big no go IMO. The rest are all good targets.
Some people have some deep-seated trauma re: Baleful Strix, but I think it's more of the same kind of pushed as any other Modern staple. And speed bumps that incentivize aggressive decks to run a little interaction are always nice. (Better to spend your Bolt on the bird than lose your Angler to it.)
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Twin was not new, did not receive much update, and had been around in the format since the beginning. It was not some mysterious unknown quantity that people didn't pick up on. Everyone knew the deck and still didn't choose to play it in the same numbers every other "diversity ban" Modern has ever had. If a deck was truly overpowered and broken, 30-40%+ of the format would be playing it. Not 10%. But again, just more revisionist history and misrepresenting the past.
Also the Tron player punted hard by not exiling a land.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Firstly, Death's Shadow is the Delver of Modern. Right now, its surprisingly not doing as good as it was pre un-bannings of Jace and BBE. This is my reasoning that Street Wraith should not be banned due to Hallow One because it would kill Death's Shadow, which is a very skill intensive interactive deck. Traditional UR Delver, or pretty much any type of non- Death's Shadow tempo/ turbo-xerox pretty much can't exist in tier 1 Modern due to the tools that make the Legacy decks immensely powerful (Wasteland, Daze, Stifle).
I think the better comparison to Legacy would be the 4c Control decks and the Miracles decks. I think the first interesting thing is how absent counter magic really is besides Force of Will. People always say that counter magic is weak in Modern, but is counter magic just bad in general unless its free? I don't think that FoW will ever be reprinted in Standard, so I don't think that we should hope for that, but I don't think that a UU spell like Counterspell would even help blue based control decks. Cards like Logic Knot and Mana Leak are legal, and yes they are very different than Counterspell, but how relevant is the unconditional counterspell against the current fast meta of Humans and Hallow One? This is a loaded question and there are much more implications on Counterpell vs Mana Leak, but I think that Counterpell is not the answer.
The most glaring thing I see when it comes to Legacy control decks is how much better their cantrips are than Modern. Lets all be honest, Serum Visions is trash and I know most of the time it doesn't feel that great casting it when playing a control deck. I truly believe that if control decks were more consistent, Modern has the answers it needs. Look at all the removal in Legacy and you see that its all pretty much the same as Modern except Swords to Plowshares is traded with Path to Exile, which is not the biggest deal. I believe The main reason Legacy doesn't run Counterspell is because its simply less efficient to the abundance of the 1 CMC removal that both Legacy and Modern share.
So my question is, why is Preordain and Ponder still banned? There's one blue based tier 1 combo deck, and that's Storm. In a meta full of Humans and Death's Shadow (presumably Death's Shadow would rise due to Ponder or Preordain unbaning), how could Storm really thrive? I see Ponder or Preordain buffing fair decks much more than unfair decks. I'd also love to see a printing of Portent or Predict to give more opportunities to gain card advantage.
Lastly, I think it would be fine for Wotc to at least experiment with unbaning Stoneforge Mystic. If it serves to be too good or push out too many decks, then they can just reban it like they did with Golgari Grave Troll. I think that a short term experiment would be beneficial to the longevity of Magic's most popular format. Modern doesn't have Umezawa's Jitte and I believe that control decks really need efficient low cost threats that can also be answers.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Synergy decks are the harder ones to evaluate a lot of the time. I don't know if I'm trying to hard with the sagas, but they are better than they look. Plus you Just literally posted an example of a deck no one thought would ever work.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Agreed generally, but I think you're underselling Counterspell. Logic Knot is good enough that 3 is common in decks with enough cantrips and fetches to support it, despite multiples being clunky as hell (especially with Snapcaster). I also think it's a trap to look fore The One Answer that will put Modern Control to exactly the right power level (whatever that may be), and dismiss cards that don't fit the bill. Counterspell is a good upgrade, which is good enough for me.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I posted before, but I agree and its important to know that there is no "One Answer." Here's what I said before:
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Spirits
As I've said before, if the Twin defenders actually made an evidence-driven argument for Twin's unbanning that addressed the reasons it was banned in the first place, I am sure more people would be open to considering the card. This also includes acknowledging opposing sides of the argument even if it is not to one's benefit. For instance, we already know that Twin had 50/50+ matchups against the best decks in Modern (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/magic-math-the-new-modern-by-the-numbers/), so denying this feels disingenuous and/or uninformed. Twin players need that want this card unbanned need to seriously address the diversity reasons behind the ban. Here's where all of you can start:
Stop pretending this is an open and shut issue where the pro-Twin group has found some secret wisdom in the Twin unban that no one else has considered. Treat this like a serious and ambiguous question and persuade your audience.
Re: answers in Modern
Better countermagic would help, but a lot of the "better answers" arguments tend to drift into "I want my control deck to have 50/50+ matchups across the board." This is not happening in Modern. The only reason it is more permissible in Legacy is that Wizards has a much more hands-off approach to Legacy due to its dramatically reduced tournament support. I guarantee if Legacy was a PT format, we would see bans to hamstring the DRS/FoW/Brainstorm engine that ensures a swath of top decks have positive matchups against most other competing decks. Thankfully, there are probably free/costed countermagic designs that improve some of Ux Control's matchups while not making the deck too strong. Standard-appropriate FoW variants would be a good start (e.g. some mix between FoW and Prohibit). Even the higher-cost broken cards like Karn and H1 are enabled by lower-cost engines such as Stirrings, Map, Inquiry, etc.
Re: unbans
SFM shouldn't even be a question at this point. Although it will certainly not be a cure-all for Modern issues, it should give controlling and grindy decks an additional edge against aggressive ones. There's very few scenarios where this breaks anything in the format (e.g. does not go into a Tier 1 deck) which should make it an easy unban. Preordain is a little dicier because it does improve Storm, which is a top-tier combo deck. It also gives edges to all the decks currently playing SV, which includes both the fair decks and stuff like Taking Turns, Ux Prison, Ad Naus, etc. This means it has an uncertain impact on the format. I'm inclined to say it's probably still fine, but it's not an open and shut issue. Unlike SFM. SFM is about as open and shut as we can get with an unban at this point.
That is very informative. Thanks for showing that. Was not able to comment yesterday because I was dead tired. Anyway, linear decks seems to have indeed become stronger. What did happen in June that caused linear decks to increase in %... is that the time that Twin got banned?
As for Twin debate... it's like beating a dead horse.. don't want to add into it.. but if ever Twin becomes unbanned. I will be selling my playset of Splinter Twin and Spellskite once prices have risen again - to get some extra cash. ^^
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Beating combo decks is easy. Play enough countermagic and sideboard some discard, be sure to play a decent clock.
The problem is that when you want a control deck to beat combo (or on a related note, big mana) in modern you have to give up some points in aggro matchups. Go figure - control loses to aggro, news at 11.
Modern is kind of a weird format in that control decks often have favorable aggro matchups but lose to combo decks. Because they don't play much countermagic.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Combo specifically is not the problem in Modern. There is only 2 decks right now that would be considered tier 1 that are combo decks, Storm and KCI (and Titanshift probably), and both fold to cards like Rest in Peace and many other silver bullet cards that Modern has
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Spirits
I agree with Pistallion that there's not really a great need to regulate combo in at the moment. But that's because there are ~12 combo cards on the banlist, with others that aren't combo cards but were banned because of combo decks (Ponder and Preordain). A big reason for that, IMO, is the format's weak permission, coupled with the fact that the leading free counterspell is only playable by degenerate combo decks in the first place.
Personally I think stronger permission would make for a better, more robust meta with stronger self-regulation outside the ban list.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Burn - 4 of 6 45-55, 2 Dog
Delver 4 of 6 45-55, 1 Dog, One Favoured
Affinity 3 of 6 45-55, 1 Dog, 2 Favoured
Twin 4 of 6 45-55, 2 Favoured
Junk 3 of 6 45-55, 1 Dog, 2 Favoured
Jund 4 of 6 45-55, 2 Dog (Dog to Delver wut)
Tron 4 of 6 45-55, 1 Dog, 1 Favoured
Interesting...
As usual we have lies, damn lies, and Stat's we can make say whatever we want.
Spirits
I think I'd like memory lapse at this point since it would not be absurdly strong in standard.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The issue is, how do you turn the corner, or fight against the uncounterable, or prevent the ramp to uncounterable, or move forward with your own plan (free counters?) without losing on the spot.
That fundamentally is why Twin was legit, and anything since, is not.
Spirits
And I think that'd be more fun too for control players.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
preordain would be a welcomed upgrade, but ive made it known that i think it is an unlikely unban.
portent would be pretty cool, though im not sure how that would make it into the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)We saw an immediate slow down with Jace/BBE unbanned, and....its just not going to stick.
The most effective way to play the game is as quickly as possible, as consistently as possible, be trying to swing for lethal (since you know, creatures) on Turn 3 or 4 if gold fishing.
Obviously games dont simply end at turn 4, but when your entire reason for existing is to drag out past Turn 4 (hi Jace) you are objectively, playing a weaker strategy.
No, try instead to get 2+ 4/4's into play on Turn 1. Try instead, to have a team of uncounterable, disruptive, self pumping tribal creatures swing lethal on Turn 4, after turning off your interaction.
Thats the 'right' way to play Modern right now.
The only way to slow down, is to have a reasonable way to win, on the spot, at later turns than 3, and have that way be something that can be interacted with, or the win con also play's into a tempo/interactive game plan.
I mean I'd love to be wrong, but the numbers dont bear out any other conclusion at this point.
Spirits
I see this thought (and variations on it) all the time, and it's a huge case of single-cause fallacy. People pick a) selection, b) disruption, or c) finishers and stake out their ground that their Chosen Control Pillar is the one that matters. (The size of each side shifting with meta and mood.) Then we generally see the different sides battle it out for a few pages with no one making any progress.
This happens because in a way, each side is right: any one of those pillars is completely capable of propelling at least one Control deck into Modern Pillar status. The fallacy is in assuming that because it's true of one of them, the others can't be important.
Twin did make reactive Blue a thing, since the combo finish made up for the poor permission. But deciding that that means "Only a New Threat Will Save Us" is way off base. Twin is just a particularly sticky example, since it's on the banlist and has actually participated in Modern, rather than cards that have never been part of the format or homebrew thought experiments. But Grixis, Jeskai, and UW being in and out of the upper tiers for a while with various UR lists pushing up as well indicates that even if a better threat is sufficient, it's not necessary, and it says nothing about the other elements of Control being insufficient.
Personally I don't care which pillar WotC uses, but the selection pillar is the one that has the most risk since of the three, it would most empower linear decks.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
What would that even look like though?
Spirits
I hesitate to devolve into card design in these threads but reprints of counterspell and memory lapse would be a start, and an instant speed compulsive research might work for the mid-game CA that's pretty lacking. Fact or Fiction could easily be printed and would not be broken.
Could add some cost reduction counterspells (e.g. gets cheaper for more spells cast by opponents), possibly print Forbid, plenty of options. Could even just print Force spike.
With Field of ruin, I am way less concerned about cavern of souls. If you want to be resilient to Cavern it's fairly easy to build that way now.
The key is probably that stuff should be done incrementally -- print counterspell and wait, print FoF and wait, etc.
My opinion is that Answers have finally been completely eclipsed by threats, and card draw has been generally nerfed too hard, so it's time to let the pendulum swing a little back the other direction. But with caution.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I've seen you in many of the control threads, I know I dont feel a lack of answers in UWR, or a lack of Selection with Search, and Jace, and the few Cantrips I even run. I mean Cryptic is a house. I dont feel I'm ever out of answers during a game, obviously you may stumble, not hit lands, and so on, but against grinding decks Card Advantage and Selection are not going to save us, when we do not have inevitability, and by that I mean TRUE and FINAL inevitability.
I saw Blue Moon Breach LOSE after resolving Breach, because the opponent could handle the loss of 6 permanents. Thats not inevitable, it can be back breaking sure, but even that, is not enough in Modern. How sick is that?
I just do not think the answers we have now are the issue. I've had many games go VERY long, you are playing Ux Mana Denial now, stalling out games, but if that was sufficient, you should be able to close the door yes?
I dont know. You are probably right that I can easily look over at the ban list and go 'if only there was a solution' because it IS a solution, and it WOULD make URx Tier 1, on the spot.
Spirits
Council's Judgment
Baleful Strix
True Name Nemesis
Toxic Deluge
Better removal, better creatures. Thoughts?
True-Name Nemesis is a big no go IMO. The rest are all good targets.
Some people have some deep-seated trauma re: Baleful Strix, but I think it's more of the same kind of pushed as any other Modern staple. And speed bumps that incentivize aggressive decks to run a little interaction are always nice. (Better to spend your Bolt on the bird than lose your Angler to it.)
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Spirits