I'm gonna say to the people advocating for stoneforge mystic as if it is the hidden panacea that modern is missing: while I agree that the card itself is probably fine, it will do NOTHING to stop the onslaugh of linear decks. If it somehow becomes too prevalent (since not only control, but also death and taxes can use it effectively), then people will maindeck artifact hate and that will be that.
People who claim that stoneforge mystic is going to fix whatever they think is wrong with modern are, in my view, 100% wrong and their expectations are way too high. I think what people really want is a meta where control and midrange decks are mostly viable in high-level competitive play, which is simply not gonna happen. There are simply too many angles of attack that the linear decks are coming from for the control decks to be able to handle them. Counterspells like daze and force spike are also not gonna help. I think people ignore that humans play cavern of souls and hollow one play cards that recurr from the graveyard. Counterspells are not particularly effective against those decks.
It seems like most of the chatter in this thread at least around Stoneforge Mystic has been subdued and reasonable. It's simply a good step, and one of the best steps that can be accomplished via unbannings.
That said, I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of work that 4/4 vigilance lifelinker can put in. It's not an instant-scoop (if it were, that would be problematic), but it's a good tool for propelling a fair deck into the later stages with resources to spare.
just considering the thought process wotc would have to go through to conclude unbanning twin is the best course of action it just doesnt seem plausible.
also you cant simultaneously argue that twin wouldnt even be that good now AND that it would have the policing effect that it had in the past. a more apt description of what it was doing was playing the part of gatekeeper because the deck was just better than its linear/combo/whatever counterparts.
you are either advocating releasing a deck that is instantly tier 1 and has the proposed effects on the meta, or its merely a decent deck amongst many in which case it does nothing. dont twist your argument to fit the situation. make your opinion clear.
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also you cant simultaneously argue that twin wouldnt even be that good now AND that it would have the policing effect that it had in the past. a more apt description of what it was doing was playing the part of gatekeeper because the deck was just better than its linear/combo/whatever counterparts.
you are either advocating releasing a deck that is instantly tier 1 and has the proposed effects on the meta, or its merely a decent deck amongst many in which case it does nothing. dont twist your argument to fit the situation. make your opinion clear.
Most of us are saying that it would be "Another good and powerful deck among other good and powerful decks that promotes interaction and punishes decks who choose not to interact." You are creating a contradictory argument that people are not actually making, while misrepresenting the points that people are making.
The deck would create a positive influence on the format by 1) giving a boost to blue/reactive/tempo/control decks giving them a great option to play. 2) Give all the other blue/control/tempo/BGx/interactive decks a good matchup to beat up on. 3) Punish fast linear decks for blindly dumping things onto the battlefield while minimally (or outright refusing to) interact with the opponent.
Honestly, given the circumstances under which it was banned and the lack of intended results from the ban, it's laughable and embarrassing that it remains banned. If you want it to remain banned, there should be much stronger arguments made to support that.
you are either advocating releasing a deck that is instantly tier 1 and has the proposed effects on the meta, or its merely a decent deck amongst many in which case it does nothing. dont twist your argument to fit the situation. make your opinion clear.
It would be Tier 1, because it would replace UWR and Blue Moon meta share, because it would beat up on linear decks. The various Tier 2 URx strats would fold into it, for most people, and a more natural predator for things like Humans, or Hollow One, or Affinity, or Bogles, would exist 'at all times'.
UW, pure UWR Control, and BGx would be able to tune to fight against Twin, and you would have a meta closer to 2015.
as laughable as you may think it is, the card is banned; meaning there is no burden of proof on those who dont think it will come off. i played twin, and i dont think it deserved to get axed. however i do believe that now that its on the list wotc has no reason to revisit their decision.
the discussion has been how the format may becoming too fast with few decisions mattering game to game (linear). lets assume that is true, and lets assume its true that it is a problem that needs solving.
twin proponents suggest twin is the solution based on the assertion that it was in the past. i posit that it was only able to do this because of its relative power level at the time, which gave it one of the larger (and at some points largest) meta share in the format.
therefore twin being a potential solution to the assumed problem becomes contingent on it reaching the same level of dominance. this is contradictory to the claim that twin would be just good but not great in a format that has had 2 years to evolve.
if twin is just another 3ish percent meta share deck its influence would be marginal. therefore 'maybe helping a little' is no more of a better solution than those claiming SFM decks would combat aggressive creature strategies.
so i challenge twin advocates to be forthright in how good exactly they expect twin would be. just a middling performer? or the return of one of the most played and winning-est decks in the history of the format.
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If I had to hit a card from Hollow One, it'd probably be Burning Inquiry, but not from a power standpoint - Street Wraith is probably the more powerful card in the deck, etc.
No, it's because I hate keeping a hand because I think it has the tools I need to deal with the matchup and then they turn 1 Inquiry me and discard all of my lands. I get far more frustrated losing to Hollow One because it forcibly mulligan'd the hand I kept than I do to losing to Storm or Lantern.
Maybe you need to change your mulligan strategy in the matchup? In most matches you want a hand of lands and spells, but against Burning Inquiry, lands+spells is a good way to lose one or the other. Instead you want a hand that's heavy on either lands or spells, so that inquiry smooths your hand. Basically 1 land+6 spells or 6 spells+1 land is good against them while 4 spells+3 lands is not.
If I had to hit a card from Hollow One, it'd probably be Burning Inquiry, but not from a power standpoint - Street Wraith is probably the more powerful card in the deck, etc.
No, it's because I hate keeping a hand because I think it has the tools I need to deal with the matchup and then they turn 1 Inquiry me and discard all of my lands. I get far more frustrated losing to Hollow One because it forcibly mulligan'd the hand I kept than I do to losing to Storm or Lantern.
Maybe you need to change your mulligan strategy in the matchup? In most matches you want a hand of lands and spells, but against Burning Inquiry, lands+spells is a good way to lose one or the other. Instead you want a hand that's heavy on either lands or spells, so that inquiry smooths your hand. Basically 1 land+6 spells or 6 spells+1 land is good against them while 4 spells+3 lands is not.
then they dont play burning inquiry and you just kept a crappy hand. its lose lose no matter what you do.
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as laughable as you may think it is, the card is banned; meaning there is no burden of proof on those who dont think it will come off. i played twin, and i dont think it deserved to get axed. however i do believe that now that its on the list wotc has no reason to revisit their decision.
See the unban text for Wild Nacatl:
"At the time Wild Nacatl was banned, we hoped that this would allow room for other aggressive decks to shine. Artifact-based aggressive strategies have remained popular and a few other aggressive decks have emerged, but the Zoo decks eventually disappeared as a result of the ban and nothing else emerged as a viable traditional aggressive deck. We expect that with the return of Wild Nacatl, those decks will return as a viable option."
It's appraisal is dependent on how good they feel the current representation of blue reactive control decks is and whether or not they feel it is fine as is. Considering they have had multiple, documented, targeted unbans to support the decks and they have yet to thrive, I could imagine they don't consider the archetype doing very well.
the discussion has been how the format may becoming too fast with few decisions mattering game to game (linear). lets assume that is true, and lets assume its true that it is a problem that needs solving.
twin proponents suggest twin is the solution based on the assertion that it was in the past. i posit that it was only able to do this because of its relative power level at the time, which gave it one of the larger (and at some points largest) meta share in the format.
therefore twin being a potential solution to the assumed problem becomes contingent on it reaching the same level of dominance. this is contradictory to the claim that twin would be just good but not great in a format that has had 2 years to evolve.
It is not THE solution, it is something that would help with a multitude of things many people are complaining about with regards to the format. And if the only other option outside the banned list is to play the waiting game for new prints (like we did with the 10 sets and 2,300 cards printed since the ban), and they're just not giving anything worthwhile to blue reactive decks, then Twin makes sense. Especially considering they break new aggro/linear/combo decks left and right, and the goal of banning Twin (and multiple successive unbans) was to specifically help the archetype they single-handedly destroyed.
if twin is just another 3ish percent meta share deck its influence would be marginal. therefore 'maybe helping a little' is no more of a better solution than those claiming SFM decks would combat aggressive creature strategies.
Then great. Release it. Let us play with it. Because if that's the case, there is absolutely no justification to keep it banned (just like all the other cards that were unbanned and did nothing to break the format). I do not believe this will be the case (and it will help turn Blue Moon from middling Tier 2-1.5 mediocrity into solidly Tier 1). Repeating your view of its irrelevance as if it is my (or others') position is both misleading and disingenuous.
so i challenge twin advocates to be forthright in how good exactly they expect twin would be. just a middling performer? or the return of one of the most played and winning-est decks in the history of the format.
I have personally repeated this answer multiple times (as have others), even as short as an hour ago, in this very thread, in the post two up from yours. It would be a good, but not dominant deck, among other good, but not dominant decks.
if twin is just another 3ish percent meta share deck its influence would be marginal. therefore 'maybe helping a little' is no more of a better solution than those claiming SFM decks would combat aggressive creature strategies.
so i challenge twin advocates to be forthright in how good exactly they expect twin would be. just a middling performer? or the return of one of the most played and winning-est decks in the history of the format.
Yes, I think twin based decks would replace Blue Moon (80% of Blue Moon and UWR Control would become Twin) at which point the pressure would apply to a percentage of Linear decks.
I think SFM comes off as well, to apply a double hit to those linear decks.
Twin would return to Tier 1.5 to 1, and in doing so, would increase BGx decks and Control built to fight it.
All told, a combo of SFM and Twin would (hopefully) smash Linear decks in the face.
#notbiased
EDIT: Honestly the goal would be, to me, a return of BGx and URx, to Tier 1. Thats all I want, because if they are Tier 1, then Linear Aggro is being contained, and games are (subjectively) better.
as laughable as you may think it is, the card is banned; meaning there is no burden of proof on those who dont think it will come off. i played twin, and i dont think it deserved to get axed. however i do believe that now that its on the list wotc has no reason to revisit their decision.
the discussion has been how the format may becoming too fast with few decisions mattering game to game (linear). lets assume that is true, and lets assume its true that it is a problem that needs solving.
twin proponents suggest twin is the solution based on the assertion that it was in the past. i posit that it was only able to do this because of its relative power level at the time, which gave it one of the larger (and at some points largest) meta share in the format.
therefore twin being a potential solution to the assumed problem becomes contingent on it reaching the same level of dominance. this is contradictory to the claim that twin would be just good but not great in a format that has had 2 years to evolve.
if twin is just another 3ish percent meta share deck its influence would be marginal. therefore 'maybe helping a little' is no more of a better solution than those claiming SFM decks would combat aggressive creature strategies.
so i challenge twin advocates to be forthright in how good exactly they expect twin would be. just a middling performer? or the return of one of the most played and winning-est decks in the history of the format.
I felt the same way. I was very surprised to see it go and was pretty pissed for a while. But basically after 3 months or so, I came to accept it and move on. I'm not going to say that the meta nowadays is better, but it is more diverse, of course depending on how you define diversity. Yes, in many ways, it is just 100 flavors of decks trying to goldfish you. It is that much more than during Twin, mostly because Twin kept people from doing that. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
But, like tronix said, I don't feel that Wizards has any reason to revisit the decision. Some day in the future, I do want it to be unbanned. I envision a format some day where only around 5-10 cards are banned. I think that is a solid and fun format in my honest opinion.
( played Twin a little bit (I owned the deck since Standard). I found trouble with GBx decks, as players at my LGS always seem to hate out the best decks. It keeps the meta changing there quite often.)
If I had to hit a card from Hollow One, it'd probably be Burning Inquiry, but not from a power standpoint - Street Wraith is probably the more powerful card in the deck, etc.
No, it's because I hate keeping a hand because I think it has the tools I need to deal with the matchup and then they turn 1 Inquiry me and discard all of my lands. I get far more frustrated losing to Hollow One because it forcibly mulligan'd the hand I kept than I do to losing to Storm or Lantern.
Maybe you need to change your mulligan strategy in the matchup? In most matches you want a hand of lands and spells, but against Burning Inquiry, lands+spells is a good way to lose one or the other. Instead you want a hand that's heavy on either lands or spells, so that inquiry smooths your hand. Basically 1 land+6 spells or 6 spells+1 land is good against them while 4 spells+3 lands is not.
I think you have to determine whether you're willing to keep a bad hand if they don't play Burning Inquiry as well. You have to be prepared for both instances. If you guess wrong, you may as well give the Hollow One player a free game. I guess that's what makes it frustrating for many. They finally get a good hand that they can keep and half of it is shipped to the yard. Perhaps it's time to run a deck that thrives off cards going to the yard? I don't know.
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Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Flame Suit On: And I do believe (I know I'll get crucified for this) that if Splinter Twin is to come off, then Summer Bloom should also come off. I truly think that they are a "duo deal." If you are going to take away some linearity of the format, at least give some back too. Twin shouldn't mind - UR Twin with Blood Moon MB or SB does well vs. that deck (I would give my numbers, but there's no point).
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Flame Suit On: And I do believe (I know I'll get crucified for this) that if Splinter Twin is to come off, then Summer Bloom should also come off. I truly think that they are a "duo deal." If you are going to take away some linearity of the format, at least give some back too. Twin shouldn't mind - UR Twin with Blood Moon MB or SB does well vs. that deck (I would give my numbers, but there's no point).
*checks fuel reserves*
Why? Twin could never 'go off' on Turn 2 or 3. In what fantasy world does BLOOM need to come off with Twin?
Flame Suit On: And I do believe (I know I'll get crucified for this) that if Splinter Twin is to come off, then Summer Bloom should also come off. I truly think that they are a "duo deal." If you are going to take away some linearity of the format, at least give some back too. Twin shouldn't mind - UR Twin with Blood Moon MB or SB does well vs. that deck (I would give my numbers, but there's no point).
*checks fuel reserves*
Why? Twin could never 'go off' on Turn 2 or 3. In what fantasy world does BLOOM need to come off with Twin?
Amulet Titan has more Top 8's than KIKI MITE.
I've gone off turn 2 with Grishoalbrand, Cheerios, GGT Dredge, and Hollow One.
I've gone off turn 3 with Storm, Eggs, KCI, and probably many others, but since I can't prove that these decks are more consistent or less consistent than Bloom Titan, I have no real proof. Wizards has done the research and come to the conclusion that it's too consistent.
But then they've also done that with Twin. They have come to the conclusion (at the time) that Twin was just the best thing to be doing in Modern, has been for a while, and they wanted to change that. They wanted to make a drastic change to the meta. Twin has also had more Top 8s than Bloom Titan - infinitely more, but all someone can say about that is that Twin was played more. But at the same time, you have to give people at least some credit. There's a reason that 10% of the current meta is not playing 8 Whack Goblins for example. I don't want to say that people that play in Modern always choose what gives them the best chance. I personally don't myself and I'm a spike. But there IS a reason.
*Heck, I've gone off on turns 2 and 3 fairly consistently (if you add turn 4, it goes up exponentially) through no disruption with Affinity. It's insane what you can do on the play with that deck when your opponent stumbles for a single turn.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
@cfusionpm - im not sure why you are trying to convince me. ive made it clear that i dont believe wotc will unban twin, which is entirely separate from whether or not i want the deck playable again.
also you claimed twin was the only card that could help. so you did say it is THE solution.
how about i put it this way. do you think twin would be as good now as it was pre-ban?
i know you have always wanted twin unbanned, and have never been one to hide your bias. i just see it as grasping at straws at this point though. your ready acceptance of the notion that twin would be mediocre just showcases that.
if for some miraculous reason wotc chooses to unban twin over other options, then hey i get to play my favorite deck. but im definitely not holding my breath.
im not sure why you are trying to convince me. ive made it clear that i dont believe wotc will unban twin, which is entirely separate from whether or not i want the deck playable again.
also you claimed twin was the only card that could help. so you did say it is THE solution.
how about i put it this way. do you think twin would be as good now as it was pre-ban?
i know you have always wanted twin unbanned, and have never been one to hide your bias. i just see it as grasping at straws at this point though. your ready acceptance of the notion that twin would be mediocre just showcases that.
if for some miraculous reason wotc chooses to unban twin over other options, then hey i get to play my favorite deck. but im definitely not holding my breath.
Responses like this are why talk about Twin was restricted to begin with. Totally ignoring multiple answers to their own questions while contributing nothing to the conversation. It causes people to repeat themselves over and over again, which then annoy onlookers, and then we weren't allowed to talk about it anymore.
But then they've also done that with Twin. They have come to the conclusion (at the time) that Twin was just the best thing to be doing in Modern, has been for a while, and they wanted to change that. They wanted to make a drastic change to the meta. Twin has also had more Top 8s than Bloom Titan - infinitely more, but all someone can say about that is that Twin was played more. But at the same time, you have to give people at least some credit. There's a reason that 10% of the current meta is not playing 8 Whack Goblins for example. I don't want to say that people that play in Modern always choose what gives them the best chance. I personally don't myself and I'm a spike. But there IS a reason.
Bloom was degenerate. Twin, was successful, played far more, and was a 'real deck' in the eyes of pro's and grinders for...way way way longer. Of course it has more T8.
With Bloom and Twin banned however. Amulet decks, very recently, have hit T8. Kiki....not so much. I would have ZERO issue saying Amulet > Kiki, as far as decks go. Would you disagree? I mean if you needed to play one or the other, for money, which do you pick?
I dont see what the argument would be that Bloom needs to come back with Twin, when Bloom was an actual 'rule breaker' as we understood it.
Splinter Twin is as possible to come off as Summer Bloom: They both have a tomb in their names in Modern.
Kikimite, Blue Moon variatins, Breach variations are all doing well. If you are a Twin lover, you could play one of those decks. I am, and I think those decks are pretty powerful on their own. No need for Twin to come off and start top 8 ing every freaking tournament all over again.
twin debates are just a meme at this point. i for one would rather look towards the future. just less stress all around.
one of the points i was interested in is how decks like humans and hollow one differ from say affinity or burn. humans is incredibly resistant to hate thanks to its all-purpose disruption, and hollow one has a threat package that is seriously hard to contain. ive played the hollow one matchup a fair amount, and im still unsure how to sideboard against them.
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Meme or not, until a deck is created that punches these linear decks in the face by being able to slow them, and then win out of nowhere (and no, Breach and Kiki do not cut it) the format will continue to coalesce around these types of strats.
Hollow One is a better dredge, like you say, how do you even hate it out?
Humans, is a better Merfolk, and its only going to improve.
If these are our top decks, how do you answer both?
Amulet came out ahead of Kiki, in this match up, and we both know it. :]
No one is disputing that. But that doesn't mean that Wizards is going to unban Twin or should do it. As a former (occasional) Bloom player, I don't enjoy the deck even close to how much I did before. I've probably played it twice since because every time I try it, it just is not that strong or consistent.
*Personally I really hope that Stoneforge Mystic AND Green Sun's Zenith, possibly Preordain too, are unbanned early in 2019. I hope that's a given. I really hope for possibly more than that. I hope that Wizards realizes that some of their own (and players' too) fears about some of the cards have been unbased in truth. Monsters of former Standards' past are not necessarily too strong for Modern. And I think that's a GOOD THING.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Obviously the 3ple top 8 at GP pittsburgh, or the double Top 8 at the PT FRF, or the other PT win, or the infinite top 8/ wins at GP's or SCG's are inaccurate statements.
Twin was winning too much
We've been over this multiple times in the past, but Twin's numbers are more like "about 1 copy per Top 8" and "2 of 7 GP wins" with 6 of 7 winners from 2015 being unique archetypes, and the two Twin builds being drastically different from each other. PTs were PTs, but they were also self-fulfilling metagames with pros trying to next-level each other and outcomes derived from 40% draft results.
But again, this is just an example why Twin discussions go nowhere. People make melodramatic and exaggerated claims about a misremembered past, and we get yelled at for adding context or making clarifications.
Nevermind the fact that Affinity had nearly as many wins, Top 8s, and metashare percentage. And that BGx (Jund/Abzan) combined for a larger meta share than Twin (UR/Grixis/Jeskai/Temur).
It seems like most of the chatter in this thread at least around Stoneforge Mystic has been subdued and reasonable. It's simply a good step, and one of the best steps that can be accomplished via unbannings.
That said, I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of work that 4/4 vigilance lifelinker can put in. It's not an instant-scoop (if it were, that would be problematic), but it's a good tool for propelling a fair deck into the later stages with resources to spare.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
just considering the thought process wotc would have to go through to conclude unbanning twin is the best course of action it just doesnt seem plausible.
also you cant simultaneously argue that twin wouldnt even be that good now AND that it would have the policing effect that it had in the past. a more apt description of what it was doing was playing the part of gatekeeper because the deck was just better than its linear/combo/whatever counterparts.
you are either advocating releasing a deck that is instantly tier 1 and has the proposed effects on the meta, or its merely a decent deck amongst many in which case it does nothing. dont twist your argument to fit the situation. make your opinion clear.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Most of us are saying that it would be "Another good and powerful deck among other good and powerful decks that promotes interaction and punishes decks who choose not to interact." You are creating a contradictory argument that people are not actually making, while misrepresenting the points that people are making.
The deck would create a positive influence on the format by 1) giving a boost to blue/reactive/tempo/control decks giving them a great option to play. 2) Give all the other blue/control/tempo/BGx/interactive decks a good matchup to beat up on. 3) Punish fast linear decks for blindly dumping things onto the battlefield while minimally (or outright refusing to) interact with the opponent.
Honestly, given the circumstances under which it was banned and the lack of intended results from the ban, it's laughable and embarrassing that it remains banned. If you want it to remain banned, there should be much stronger arguments made to support that.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It would be Tier 1, because it would replace UWR and Blue Moon meta share, because it would beat up on linear decks. The various Tier 2 URx strats would fold into it, for most people, and a more natural predator for things like Humans, or Hollow One, or Affinity, or Bogles, would exist 'at all times'.
UW, pure UWR Control, and BGx would be able to tune to fight against Twin, and you would have a meta closer to 2015.
That's about as clear as I can get on my opinion.
Spirits
the discussion has been how the format may becoming too fast with few decisions mattering game to game (linear). lets assume that is true, and lets assume its true that it is a problem that needs solving.
twin proponents suggest twin is the solution based on the assertion that it was in the past. i posit that it was only able to do this because of its relative power level at the time, which gave it one of the larger (and at some points largest) meta share in the format.
therefore twin being a potential solution to the assumed problem becomes contingent on it reaching the same level of dominance. this is contradictory to the claim that twin would be just good but not great in a format that has had 2 years to evolve.
if twin is just another 3ish percent meta share deck its influence would be marginal. therefore 'maybe helping a little' is no more of a better solution than those claiming SFM decks would combat aggressive creature strategies.
so i challenge twin advocates to be forthright in how good exactly they expect twin would be. just a middling performer? or the return of one of the most played and winning-est decks in the history of the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Maybe you need to change your mulligan strategy in the matchup? In most matches you want a hand of lands and spells, but against Burning Inquiry, lands+spells is a good way to lose one or the other. Instead you want a hand that's heavy on either lands or spells, so that inquiry smooths your hand. Basically 1 land+6 spells or 6 spells+1 land is good against them while 4 spells+3 lands is not.
then they dont play burning inquiry and you just kept a crappy hand. its lose lose no matter what you do.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)"At the time Wild Nacatl was banned, we hoped that this would allow room for other aggressive decks to shine. Artifact-based aggressive strategies have remained popular and a few other aggressive decks have emerged, but the Zoo decks eventually disappeared as a result of the ban and nothing else emerged as a viable traditional aggressive deck. We expect that with the return of Wild Nacatl, those decks will return as a viable option."
It's appraisal is dependent on how good they feel the current representation of blue reactive control decks is and whether or not they feel it is fine as is. Considering they have had multiple, documented, targeted unbans to support the decks and they have yet to thrive, I could imagine they don't consider the archetype doing very well.
It is not THE solution, it is something that would help with a multitude of things many people are complaining about with regards to the format. And if the only other option outside the banned list is to play the waiting game for new prints (like we did with the 10 sets and 2,300 cards printed since the ban), and they're just not giving anything worthwhile to blue reactive decks, then Twin makes sense. Especially considering they break new aggro/linear/combo decks left and right, and the goal of banning Twin (and multiple successive unbans) was to specifically help the archetype they single-handedly destroyed.
Then great. Release it. Let us play with it. Because if that's the case, there is absolutely no justification to keep it banned (just like all the other cards that were unbanned and did nothing to break the format). I do not believe this will be the case (and it will help turn Blue Moon from middling Tier 2-1.5 mediocrity into solidly Tier 1). Repeating your view of its irrelevance as if it is my (or others') position is both misleading and disingenuous.
I have personally repeated this answer multiple times (as have others), even as short as an hour ago, in this very thread, in the post two up from yours. It would be a good, but not dominant deck, among other good, but not dominant decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yes, I think twin based decks would replace Blue Moon (80% of Blue Moon and UWR Control would become Twin) at which point the pressure would apply to a percentage of Linear decks.
I think SFM comes off as well, to apply a double hit to those linear decks.
Twin would return to Tier 1.5 to 1, and in doing so, would increase BGx decks and Control built to fight it.
All told, a combo of SFM and Twin would (hopefully) smash Linear decks in the face.
#notbiased
EDIT: Honestly the goal would be, to me, a return of BGx and URx, to Tier 1. Thats all I want, because if they are Tier 1, then Linear Aggro is being contained, and games are (subjectively) better.
Spirits
I felt the same way. I was very surprised to see it go and was pretty pissed for a while. But basically after 3 months or so, I came to accept it and move on. I'm not going to say that the meta nowadays is better, but it is more diverse, of course depending on how you define diversity. Yes, in many ways, it is just 100 flavors of decks trying to goldfish you. It is that much more than during Twin, mostly because Twin kept people from doing that. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
But, like tronix said, I don't feel that Wizards has any reason to revisit the decision. Some day in the future, I do want it to be unbanned. I envision a format some day where only around 5-10 cards are banned. I think that is a solid and fun format in my honest opinion.
( played Twin a little bit (I owned the deck since Standard). I found trouble with GBx decks, as players at my LGS always seem to hate out the best decks. It keeps the meta changing there quite often.)
I think you have to determine whether you're willing to keep a bad hand if they don't play Burning Inquiry as well. You have to be prepared for both instances. If you guess wrong, you may as well give the Hollow One player a free game. I guess that's what makes it frustrating for many. They finally get a good hand that they can keep and half of it is shipped to the yard. Perhaps it's time to run a deck that thrives off cards going to the yard? I don't know.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)*checks fuel reserves*
Why? Twin could never 'go off' on Turn 2 or 3. In what fantasy world does BLOOM need to come off with Twin?
Amulet Titan has more Top 8's than KIKI MITE.
Spirits
I've gone off turn 2 with Grishoalbrand, Cheerios, GGT Dredge, and Hollow One.
I've gone off turn 3 with Storm, Eggs, KCI, and probably many others, but since I can't prove that these decks are more consistent or less consistent than Bloom Titan, I have no real proof. Wizards has done the research and come to the conclusion that it's too consistent.
But then they've also done that with Twin. They have come to the conclusion (at the time) that Twin was just the best thing to be doing in Modern, has been for a while, and they wanted to change that. They wanted to make a drastic change to the meta. Twin has also had more Top 8s than Bloom Titan - infinitely more, but all someone can say about that is that Twin was played more. But at the same time, you have to give people at least some credit. There's a reason that 10% of the current meta is not playing 8 Whack Goblins for example. I don't want to say that people that play in Modern always choose what gives them the best chance. I personally don't myself and I'm a spike. But there IS a reason.
*Heck, I've gone off on turns 2 and 3 fairly consistently (if you add turn 4, it goes up exponentially) through no disruption with Affinity. It's insane what you can do on the play with that deck when your opponent stumbles for a single turn.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)also you claimed twin was the only card that could help. so you did say it is THE solution.
how about i put it this way. do you think twin would be as good now as it was pre-ban?
i know you have always wanted twin unbanned, and have never been one to hide your bias. i just see it as grasping at straws at this point though. your ready acceptance of the notion that twin would be mediocre just showcases that.
if for some miraculous reason wotc chooses to unban twin over other options, then hey i get to play my favorite deck. but im definitely not holding my breath.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Responses like this are why talk about Twin was restricted to begin with. Totally ignoring multiple answers to their own questions while contributing nothing to the conversation. It causes people to repeat themselves over and over again, which then annoy onlookers, and then we weren't allowed to talk about it anymore.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Bloom was degenerate. Twin, was successful, played far more, and was a 'real deck' in the eyes of pro's and grinders for...way way way longer. Of course it has more T8.
With Bloom and Twin banned however. Amulet decks, very recently, have hit T8. Kiki....not so much. I would have ZERO issue saying Amulet > Kiki, as far as decks go. Would you disagree? I mean if you needed to play one or the other, for money, which do you pick?
I dont see what the argument would be that Bloom needs to come back with Twin, when Bloom was an actual 'rule breaker' as we understood it.
Spirits
Jace had a Tomb. That argument, is not even an argument.
KikiMite is bad. When you have played Twin, I cannot accept playing KikiMite, its worse now, than it was when Twin was banned, and it was never good.
As to the fear mongering of 'oh Jace and AV and ....'
Show me the deck list that runs all those cards, and I'll show you a deck that is unfocused, and draws the wrong half, and loses.
Spirits
one of the points i was interested in is how decks like humans and hollow one differ from say affinity or burn. humans is incredibly resistant to hate thanks to its all-purpose disruption, and hollow one has a threat package that is seriously hard to contain. ive played the hollow one matchup a fair amount, and im still unsure how to sideboard against them.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Splinter Twin was off the table.
Meme or not, until a deck is created that punches these linear decks in the face by being able to slow them, and then win out of nowhere (and no, Breach and Kiki do not cut it) the format will continue to coalesce around these types of strats.
Hollow One is a better dredge, like you say, how do you even hate it out?
Humans, is a better Merfolk, and its only going to improve.
If these are our top decks, how do you answer both?
Spirits
Summer Bloom vs Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Splinter Twin vs Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Amulet came out ahead of Kiki, in this match up, and we both know it. :]
Spirits
Spirits
I'm not playing a format of Hollow One, Humans, Affinity, Burn, and Bogles. Thats all I know.
Spirits
This is correct. I personally would like to say sorry for my involvement here and I am going to try to chill on it.
No one is disputing that. But that doesn't mean that Wizards is going to unban Twin or should do it. As a former (occasional) Bloom player, I don't enjoy the deck even close to how much I did before. I've probably played it twice since because every time I try it, it just is not that strong or consistent.
*Personally I really hope that Stoneforge Mystic AND Green Sun's Zenith, possibly Preordain too, are unbanned early in 2019. I hope that's a given. I really hope for possibly more than that. I hope that Wizards realizes that some of their own (and players' too) fears about some of the cards have been unbased in truth. Monsters of former Standards' past are not necessarily too strong for Modern. And I think that's a GOOD THING.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)But again, this is just an example why Twin discussions go nowhere. People make melodramatic and exaggerated claims about a misremembered past, and we get yelled at for adding context or making clarifications.
Nevermind the fact that Affinity had nearly as many wins, Top 8s, and metashare percentage. And that BGx (Jund/Abzan) combined for a larger meta share than Twin (UR/Grixis/Jeskai/Temur).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate