I mean white needs a good cheap creature that isn't a human...but I don't really see SFM being in the Humans Deck, it requires you to make room for some equipment and a non human...maybe in the sideboard?
SFM would go straight into jeskai obviously. The deck would take a few anti aggro cards out, and put SFM, batterskull and some anti tron cards in the main.
I think several decks will try using SFM at the beginning, but it will solidify a home in UW control and the white tax decks. UW is a classic shell for her and the WG/WB tax decks would love a powerful creature that will be hard to deal with due to the tax and blink effects they are already using. There will probably be other decks where she is very good, but those are the stand out decks imo. Abzan will definitely try her out too.
We'll see what happens this weekend but even if sfm just goes into control is that bad? The deck imo still needs help. Yeah at scg events it's doing ok but other than that it has a hard time. Cutting 5+ cards in your control deck for more sorcery speed 2 drops seems sketchy to me so then what you run 2+1? you now also turn on opponents creature removal earlier too. I can't see a world where sfm is too good even in control. Card will be ok at best in modern imo.
GSZ I just can't see coming off the list. It's just never a bad card to draw (or the cards it gets unlike an opening hand with batterskul) and is 4-8ish repeatably of any green creature you might be hoping your opponent doesn't find. Also ask nassif how much he'd like more dryad arbors in play lol.
On the topic of Green Sun's Zenith, does this card push the consistency of bogles too far? As I understand, one of that deck's biggest problems is its inconsistency in finding a hand with a bogle, lands, and auras. With very little in the way of card draw or card selection, could GSZ be what that deck needs to become a real consistent contender?
SFM will not be the best card in modern, it will be an uncondicional good card in every white deck, that is the only thing the is holding it to tha ban list and I respect that. Personally I think being ban or unban is fine.
On the topic of Green Sun's Zenith, does this card push the consistency of bogles too far? As I understand, one of that deck's biggest problems is its inconsistency in finding a hand with a bogle, lands, and auras. With very little in the way of card draw or card selection, could GSZ be what that deck needs to become a real consistent contender?
Bogles wouldn't run it. It's a minimum of 2 mana to get a Hexproof creature and if they wanted Hexproof 9-12 they have Silhana Ledgewalker or if they splash into blue Invisible Stalker These already compete with Kor Spiritdancer.
Green Sun Zenith would help Elves. Elves would want Green Sun Zenith either version in G?W or G/B. I think the fact that if you finding a way to go through your deck, you could keep finding Green Sun Zenith's as the game goes on could help with the grind-ability against Control decks.
to me, the best shells for GSZ are gw company (and it will be like legacy's maverick, something that seems interesting in modern), elves (but i doubt that chord/company are worst to run than the zenith) and maybe amulet titan/scapeshift. The only thing that seems to keep zenith out of modern is the "all games plays the same" that wizards seems to hate
to me, the best shells for GSZ are gw company (and it will be like legacy's maverick, something that seems interesting in modern), elves (but i doubt that chord/company are worst to run than the zenith) and maybe amulet titan/scapeshift. The only thing that seems to keep zenith out of modern is the "all games plays the same" that wizards seems to hate
I'd jam GSZ in elves all day long over chord, all day. Not sure about coco as spitting out two dudes is still relevant a lot of the time.
The card is probably fine? I'm pretty sure jund shadow drops traverse though, so zenntih becomes shadow 5-8 for 2 mana and can find higher cmc threats as the game goes long (goyf, scooze, etc.) maybe not, I have no exp piloting the deck. Seems groovy on paper though.
to me, the best shells for GSZ are gw company (and it will be like legacy's maverick, something that seems interesting in modern), elves (but i doubt that chord/company are worst to run than the zenith) and maybe amulet titan/scapeshift. The only thing that seems to keep zenith out of modern is the "all games plays the same" that wizards seems to hate
I'd jam GSZ in elves all day long over chord, all day. Not sure about coco as spitting out two dudes is still relevant a lot of the time.
The card is probably fine? I'm pretty sure jund shadow drops traverse though, so zenntih becomes shadow 5-8 for 2 mana and can find higher cmc threats as the game goes long (goyf, scooze, etc.) maybe not, I have no exp piloting the deck. Seems groovy on paper though.
you can only search for green creatures with zenith, so no shadow
Chord vs GSZ is an interesting discussion, cause both cards are amazing an serves the same role, but to me, chord is a more combo oriented card than the zenith, so maybe it would open more room to brew
to me, the best shells for GSZ are gw company (and it will be like legacy's maverick, something that seems interesting in modern), elves (but i doubt that chord/company are worst to run than the zenith) and maybe amulet titan/scapeshift. The only thing that seems to keep zenith out of modern is the "all games plays the same" that wizards seems to hate
I'd jam GSZ in elves all day long over chord, all day. Not sure about coco as spitting out two dudes is still relevant a lot of the time.
The card is probably fine? I'm pretty sure jund shadow drops traverse though, so zenntih becomes shadow 5-8 for 2 mana and can find higher cmc threats as the game goes long (goyf, scooze, etc.) maybe not, I have no exp piloting the deck. Seems groovy on paper though.
GSZ doesn't find Death's Shadow. GSZ only finds green creatures, so it's at best Goyf 5-8. (If it could grab any creature, we wouldn't even be having a conversation about it coming off the list.)
The card provides a lot of raw consistency to color that doesn't necessarily need it right now. Not to mention that it shuffles right back into your deck. It's basically never a dead draw and there are ALWAYS 4 copies of it in your deck.
I don't know that it's anything that's too powerful for Modern, but it does anything really all that good for the format.
to me, the best shells for GSZ are gw company (and it will be like legacy's maverick, something that seems interesting in modern), elves (but i doubt that chord/company are worst to run than the zenith) and maybe amulet titan/scapeshift. The only thing that seems to keep zenith out of modern is the "all games plays the same" that wizards seems to hate
I'd jam GSZ in elves all day long over chord, all day. Not sure about coco as spitting out two dudes is still relevant a lot of the time.
The card is probably fine? I'm pretty sure jund shadow drops traverse though, so zenntih becomes shadow 5-8 for 2 mana and can find higher cmc threats as the game goes long (goyf, scooze, etc.) maybe not, I have no exp piloting the deck. Seems groovy on paper though.
Green Sun will only search of GREEN creatures. Goyf 5-8 is a big deal, but it can not search for shadow.
On a slightly different note, SCG had ran two articles in the last few days about changes to modern ban list. One by Todd Anderson and one by Sam black. They are both premium articles. Has anyone read them and can they please summarize them because I am not a premium member.
I love random cards and weird decks but I'm usually the one getting other people but boy did I get got today. Never heard of Tallow Wisp before and the instantly tutoring up Spell Queller was quite the suprise.
Ah, inovation. Sometimes, you taste like salt. Even to me.
im not an scg premium member, but i know todd anderson wants stoneforge unbanned, as well as the blue cantrips. he is a blue mage, a spike, and a cawblade fanboy. its obvious what direction he would like the format to go.
the premise of sam black's article is an interesting thought experiment though. if you put all your biases on the table, ignored the cost of upheaving the format, and had full control; what would you do?
i cant decide if id go wild with bans/unbans, or just change a few things.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
It is a lot of fun to bring new and/or odd things to the table to mix it up. I love surprising my opponents with things they aren't familiar with, and I've even had some folks thank me for showing them cards and synergies they hadn't seen before. Of course, some people don't appreciate getting beaten by stuff they're unfamiliar with, and I experienced my first actual table flip last week. The guilty party was banned from the store, and I wish we had it on video. This guy, playing Mono G Tron, lost his marbles after losing 2-0 to my Faeries deck. He first showed signs of anger when I countered a turn 3 Karn in game 1, but both games he lost to Bitterblossom tokens. That being said, most players are very respectful, even when the salt flows.
If wotc unbans splinter twin is because they had given up on modern promoting modern as a format and probably creating a "new modern" format.
the unban of SFM will probably be to increase the power level of white.
personally I don't see the point of unbanning GSZ, it will be probably too good always ramping on turn one and will give company/tollbox decks an unnecessary tool, we already have good cards for those decks (company, chord and eldritch evolution)
It is a lot of fun to bring new and/or odd things to the table to mix it up. I love surprising my opponents with things they aren't familiar with, and I've even had some folks thank me for showing them cards and synergies they hadn't seen before. Of course, some people don't appreciate getting beaten by stuff they're unfamiliar with, and I experienced my first actual table flip last week. The guilty party was banned from the store, and I wish we had it on video. This guy, playing Mono G Tron, lost his marbles after losing 2-0 to my Faeries deck. He first showed signs of anger when I countered a turn 3 Karn in game 1, but both games he lost to Bitterblossom tokens. That being said, most players are very respectful, even when the salt flows.
haha, sounds like something out of a comedy sketch.
Who does that!?
anyway I'm liking the state of modern at the moment. personal opinion entirely, of course, but i'm also basing it on the types of decks that are able to carve out a niche or a good preformance right now.
If I can genuinely survey my extensive Modern collection and roster of dumb combo decks and say "yeah, I think GW Value-Town is a pretty good choice for my next tournament" I think we've got to be in a good spot. Haha =D
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
It is a lot of fun to bring new and/or odd things to the table to mix it up. I love surprising my opponents with things they aren't familiar with, and I've even had some folks thank me for showing them cards and synergies they hadn't seen before. Of course, some people don't appreciate getting beaten by stuff they're unfamiliar with, and I experienced my first actual table flip last week. The guilty party was banned from the store, and I wish we had it on video. This guy, playing Mono G Tron, lost his marbles after losing 2-0 to my Faeries deck. He first showed signs of anger when I countered a turn 3 Karn in game 1, but both games he lost to Bitterblossom tokens. That being said, most players are very respectful, even when the salt flows.
haha, sounds like something out of a comedy sketch.
Who does that!?
anyway I'm liking the state of modern at the moment. personal opinion entirely, of course, but i'm also basing it on the types of decks that are able to carve out a niche or a good preformance right now.
If I can genuinely survey my extensive Modern collection and roster of dumb combo decks and say "yeah, I think GW Value-Town is a pretty good choice for my next tournament" I think we've got to be in a good spot. Haha =D
Yeah it was quite the scene that night, lol. I do understand that getting your big threats countered and your lands constantly tapped down is frustrating, but Faeries is barely scratching the surface of broken stuff to do in Modern.
If I could change anything in Modern, Id pull SFM, Preordain, and Hypergenesis off the banlist, and put Wasteland and Daze into Modern. That being said, Im enjoying the format a lot, and still looking forward to GP Atlanta this fall. I couldnt make it to Memphis back in February, and couldnt afford to go to Vegas, so Atlanta is my next opportunity.
You'd be surprised how many people carry a huge wad of money for a deck and don't know how to play it. Affinity and merfolk are good decks, but may the gods help a newbie who tries to play those decks going in blind. Combo is even worse.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
im not an scg premium member, but i know todd anderson wants stoneforge unbanned, as well as the blue cantrips. he is a blue mage, a spike, and a cawblade fanboy. its obvious what direction he would like the format to go.
the premise of sam black's article is an interesting thought experiment though. if you put all your biases on the table, ignored the cost of upheaving the format, and had full control; what would you do?
i cant decide if id go wild with bans/unbans, or just change a few things.
I'd basically have three categories: hell no, eh let's give it a shot, and this is stupid unban already as such
Unban already: preordain, stoneforge
Eh I'll give it a shot: birthing pod, gsz (only one of these first two tbh), ponder, twin, artifact lands, dig through time, punishing fire
Hell no: everything else
I'd also probably ban simian spirit guide, with ancient stirrings on a watchlist depending on how things went.
Now, I don't think most of the things suggested will happen, and I don't think that any one (or many) NBL tournaments will really give us useful data about what these cards would look like in normal modern, but he brings up some points that I think are pretty valid.
Cards he thinks are too good to ever be legal:
Dark Depths
Eye of Ugin
Sensei's Divining Top
Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Gitaxian Probe
I agree with all of these being far too good or far too much of a problem with the exception of Dig deserving some exploration as to possibly coming off. All of these cards are tier 1 never getting unbanned, while that one seems like it's tier 1.5. Still busted, but maybe appropriately so with the rest of the things we're doing in this format already?
Cards that were difficult to properly evaluate after one tournament - either because they didn't show up or were dramatically outclassed by *more* broken things:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Deathrite Shaman
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Skullclamp
Splinter Twin
Summer Bloom
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Of the above, he suggests that Jitte, GSZ, Twin, Punishing Fire, and Preordain could probably come off due to their impact on the modern meta in that all of these cards promote slowing down games. I *really* like this line of thinking because I definitely think that giving some fair decks, or heck, decks that are centered around interactions, a shot in the arm might help those decks keep up with the linearity arms race. Something to think about.
These are cards he thinks were completely outclassed by the rest of the busted cards and should just come off:
Stoneforge Mystic
Birthing Pod
Yeah, I agree with this. We've had countless stoneforge conversations for years in this thread and we always get to the same spot, it's good, but it's not busted good. It helps white. Neat. Pod I think is in a weird spot in that it definitely re-enables a top tier strategy, but not one that I personally feel is anything as close to the degeneracy or the potential for dominance that we've seen out of modern both in the past and recently.
I think its humorous the (near?) unanimous approval for an SFM unban has within the community. If its not unbanned next I'll (continue) to laugh at how wrong Wizards is about Modern.
Pod being safe though, to me, throws up a TON of question marks. I would be salty indeed if that came off while other just as deserving cards remained banned.
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UW Spirits
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GSZ I just can't see coming off the list. It's just never a bad card to draw (or the cards it gets unlike an opening hand with batterskul) and is 4-8ish repeatably of any green creature you might be hoping your opponent doesn't find. Also ask nassif how much he'd like more dryad arbors in play lol.
Bogles wouldn't run it. It's a minimum of 2 mana to get a Hexproof creature and if they wanted Hexproof 9-12 they have Silhana Ledgewalker or if they splash into blue Invisible Stalker These already compete with Kor Spiritdancer.
I'd jam GSZ in elves all day long over chord, all day. Not sure about coco as spitting out two dudes is still relevant a lot of the time.
The card is probably fine? I'm pretty sure jund shadow drops traverse though, so zenntih becomes shadow 5-8 for 2 mana and can find higher cmc threats as the game goes long (goyf, scooze, etc.) maybe not, I have no exp piloting the deck. Seems groovy on paper though.
you can only search for green creatures with zenith, so no shadow
Chord vs GSZ is an interesting discussion, cause both cards are amazing an serves the same role, but to me, chord is a more combo oriented card than the zenith, so maybe it would open more room to brew
GSZ doesn't find Death's Shadow. GSZ only finds green creatures, so it's at best Goyf 5-8. (If it could grab any creature, we wouldn't even be having a conversation about it coming off the list.)
The card provides a lot of raw consistency to color that doesn't necessarily need it right now. Not to mention that it shuffles right back into your deck. It's basically never a dead draw and there are ALWAYS 4 copies of it in your deck.
I don't know that it's anything that's too powerful for Modern, but it does anything really all that good for the format.
Green Sun will only search of GREEN creatures. Goyf 5-8 is a big deal, but it can not search for shadow.
On a slightly different note, SCG had ran two articles in the last few days about changes to modern ban list. One by Todd Anderson and one by Sam black. They are both premium articles. Has anyone read them and can they please summarize them because I am not a premium member.
I love random cards and weird decks but I'm usually the one getting other people but boy did I get got today. Never heard of Tallow Wisp before and the instantly tutoring up Spell Queller was quite the suprise.
Ah, inovation. Sometimes, you taste like salt. Even to me.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
the premise of sam black's article is an interesting thought experiment though. if you put all your biases on the table, ignored the cost of upheaving the format, and had full control; what would you do?
i cant decide if id go wild with bans/unbans, or just change a few things.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)the unban of SFM will probably be to increase the power level of white.
personally I don't see the point of unbanning GSZ, it will be probably too good always ramping on turn one and will give company/tollbox decks an unnecessary tool, we already have good cards for those decks (company, chord and eldritch evolution)
haha, sounds like something out of a comedy sketch.
Who does that!?
anyway I'm liking the state of modern at the moment. personal opinion entirely, of course, but i'm also basing it on the types of decks that are able to carve out a niche or a good preformance right now.
If I can genuinely survey my extensive Modern collection and roster of dumb combo decks and say "yeah, I think GW Value-Town is a pretty good choice for my next tournament" I think we've got to be in a good spot. Haha =D
Yeah it was quite the scene that night, lol. I do understand that getting your big threats countered and your lands constantly tapped down is frustrating, but Faeries is barely scratching the surface of broken stuff to do in Modern.
If I could change anything in Modern, Id pull SFM, Preordain, and Hypergenesis off the banlist, and put Wasteland and Daze into Modern. That being said, Im enjoying the format a lot, and still looking forward to GP Atlanta this fall. I couldnt make it to Memphis back in February, and couldnt afford to go to Vegas, so Atlanta is my next opportunity.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What kind of logic brings you to that conclusion?
Spirits
I'd basically have three categories: hell no, eh let's give it a shot, and this is stupid unban already as such
Unban already: preordain, stoneforge
Eh I'll give it a shot: birthing pod, gsz (only one of these first two tbh), ponder, twin, artifact lands, dig through time, punishing fire
Hell no: everything else
I'd also probably ban simian spirit guide, with ancient stirrings on a watchlist depending on how things went.
Now, I don't think most of the things suggested will happen, and I don't think that any one (or many) NBL tournaments will really give us useful data about what these cards would look like in normal modern, but he brings up some points that I think are pretty valid.
Cards he thinks are too good to ever be legal:
Dark Depths
Eye of Ugin
Sensei's Divining Top
Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Gitaxian Probe
I agree with all of these being far too good or far too much of a problem with the exception of Dig deserving some exploration as to possibly coming off. All of these cards are tier 1 never getting unbanned, while that one seems like it's tier 1.5. Still busted, but maybe appropriately so with the rest of the things we're doing in this format already?
Cards that were difficult to properly evaluate after one tournament - either because they didn't show up or were dramatically outclassed by *more* broken things:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Deathrite Shaman
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Skullclamp
Splinter Twin
Summer Bloom
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Of the above, he suggests that Jitte, GSZ, Twin, Punishing Fire, and Preordain could probably come off due to their impact on the modern meta in that all of these cards promote slowing down games. I *really* like this line of thinking because I definitely think that giving some fair decks, or heck, decks that are centered around interactions, a shot in the arm might help those decks keep up with the linearity arms race. Something to think about.
These are cards he thinks were completely outclassed by the rest of the busted cards and should just come off:
Stoneforge Mystic
Birthing Pod
Yeah, I agree with this. We've had countless stoneforge conversations for years in this thread and we always get to the same spot, it's good, but it's not busted good. It helps white. Neat. Pod I think is in a weird spot in that it definitely re-enables a top tier strategy, but not one that I personally feel is anything as close to the degeneracy or the potential for dominance that we've seen out of modern both in the past and recently.
Thoughts?
Pod being safe though, to me, throws up a TON of question marks. I would be salty indeed if that came off while other just as deserving cards remained banned.
Spirits