The color pie is outdated. NWO design was based around the premise that players, specifically casuals who make up the majority of the customers, prefer creatures and planeswalkers over other types of spells. WOTC never revamped the color pie to give everything good creatures or creature-related cards. That's how you end up with collected company or eldritch evolution. "oh, this is for creatures it'll be awesome in green!"
Oh Indeed I look at most Blue and White creatures and think man they could easily shave off 1 to 2 mana.
White needs cheaper big creatures period or alternate casting methods that Black gets. I mean white should be able sacrifice for the greater good or I don't know exert (prayer) to reduce cost. I am tired of overcosted Angels especially.
Blue needs some viable keywords on it cards besides Flying and Flash. Maybe Haste...Blue does control time. Better ETBs and activated Abilities as well.
The issue (if there is one) is that Green's the Creature Colour, Reds the Aggro Colour, and Black is the alternative cost Colour...and none of those are 'feels bad' for people.
Counters, and Taxes, are however 'feels bad'.
I dont want a single better 'blue creature' to be printed. Its irrelevant to me.
I want Wizards to get over their fear of Counterspell, and Filter/Scry. Thats literally it.
The point was more if WOTC is not going to print Sorceries and Instants that are up to snuff then creatures need to re-balanced so Blue and White have a fighting chance. But you are right Counterspells and Taxes are penalized cause they are not fun enough for your opponents. That doesn't excuse for instance most White Angels being hilariously over-costed.
If this is true, Humans get a REAL upgrade! Will be surely going up in power level.
PS: Edited to upload the image through mtgsalvation uploader!
Hooray! White and green still getting better draw and filtering than blue! And on bodies that attack and block and are highly synergistic and can be uncounterable with a Cavern or Vial!
As opposed to the many, many Green cards that dig through your entire deck for a land and puts it directly on the battlefield. I'm not sure how this feeds into the idea that Green is getting better draw and filtering than Blue when Green has, for the entirety of the game, gotten effects that search through your entire library for a land (often putting it directly into play).
yeah im a fan of portent as well. if nothing else than to mess with the top of my opponents deck. still the barrier has been, and will continue to be, standard.
I always thought that excuses like "it will break standard" or "is a oppressive card" is a lazy/poor excuse for not printing a card for modern. especially if we all talking about counterspells and cantrips. Too good of a creatures, free affects and "hate creatures" have been the oppressive cards in the format.
The funny thing about the "too good for Standard" idea is that if you look at the cards in question, then look back at the Standard formats that had them, you'll find Standard formats that were received much better than the Standard formats of the last few years. Not to mention the fact that you look at the cards that do get printed in Standard. Stuff like Hazoret or The Scarab God get an OK but Baleful Strix is too good?
To be fair, there is a difference between a new card taking over Standard compared to an existing card being reprinted and doing so; the latter is much more embarrassing because one can say they should have known better. Still, I can't help but notice that the Standards that had those cards that are supposedly "too powerful" for it were largely enjoyed more than recent Standards. There certainly were far fewer bannings.
However, in regards to the claim that it's not an acceptable reason for not reprinting cantrips, I would disagree. They brought back Opt, which is one of the best cheap cantrips they've had in Standard for quite a while. Though to be honest, I think the cantrips we have in Modern are actually pretty good, people just keep comparing them to the dramatically overpowered Legacy cantrips, which is sort of like concluding Brainstorm isn't good because compared to Ancestral Recall it's pretty bad. I think Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, and Opt are reasonable cantrips for Standard, though admittedly until recently Wizards of the Coast declined to even print cantrips of that quality in Standard.
In regards to Portent, though, that card is just not going to return to Standard, because they have (correctly) moved away from delayed cantrips.
It's weird too me that wizards prints cards like reflector mage before printing man-o-war for example. Maybe counterspell can be to efficient but cancel is not good enough, that's my last taking on the counterspell not being printed in standard for modern.
You know, it always did confuse me that after apparently considering Man-o'-War too powerful (they printed a strictly worse version of it at 3U), they would turn around and make a better version of it in Reflector Mage. To be fair, it's 1UW instead of 2U so an upgrade isn't unreasonable (though it's a bit odd if they didn't want Man-o'-War around that they'd think 1UW merits an upgrade), but I think they should have had the upgrade simply be the inability to cast it next turn, and have the power/toughness remain 2/2.
Also prohibit could be interesting too.
It would, but if we're going for Kicker counterspells, I think I might prefer something like:
Halt 1U
Instant
Kicker 1U
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2. If you paid the kicker cost, counter that spell instead.
Although as I've remarked before, if they're really scared about printing something like Counterspell, they could always reprint Cavern of Souls as a foil, which would be much appreciated as the card needs a reprint anyway.
I can't imagine people playing Preordain in Miracles, Leovold decks, or anything else, but honestly Legacy is a place for innovation and odd people try odd things. Did you know that people play Veteran Explorer in Legacy...and actually don't lose to everything?
Excuse me!? Do not besmirch NicFit.
Also FWIW, I've added a 2nd Preordain to my ANT deck and I'm tempted by a 3rd. I really like being able to filter some more things out of the way when I want a specfici card rather then taking my chances with the shuffle from Ponder if it's not there.
BBD and others are coming around to Preordain in the 4C Leovold decks as well. Setting up draws there is arguably more important then any other time that counter balance isn't in play.
I know it is from personal experience in Standard, but honestly I haven't really tested the notion in Legacy and (understandably) in Modern. I still really liked Ponder a bit more in Pauper; the few times I played it.
And I personally think that Ponder should be unbanned as well, although I do realize that it's riskier. I mostly talk about Preordain because it's more "acceptable" to do so. I swear that there's some people in here that have lost to Ponder or Preordain a million times, but never have lost to Slippery Bogle, Deceiver Exarch, Inkmoth Nexus, Conflagrate, Primeval Titan, Meddling Mage, Lightning Storm, etc. I would estimate that people have lost at least 100 times as often to Preordain in their lives than the rest of the cards combined. At least it seems so...
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Despite the shuffle clause, Ponder is quite a bit worse without fetchlands. It's significantly worse in pauper much like brainstorm (though it is stronger than brainstorm ofc). Being able to take the best of 3 cards and then shuffle away two crappers is significantly better than taking a random card.
I'd rather see Preordain for a few years before considering Ponder
I know it is from personal experience in Standard, but honestly I haven't really tested the notion in Legacy and (understandably) in Modern. I still really liked Ponder a bit more in Pauper; the few times I played it.
And I personally think that Ponder should be unbanned as well, although I do realize that it's riskier. I mostly talk about Preordain because it's more "acceptable" to do so. I swear that there's some people in here that have lost to Ponder or Preordain a million times, but never have lost to Slippery Bogle, Deceiver Exarch, Inkmoth Nexus, Conflagrate, Primeval Titan, Meddling Mage, Lightning Storm, etc. I would estimate that people have lost at least 100 times as often to Preordain in their lives than the rest of the cards combined. At least it seems so...
those other cards are things that actually kill you. cheap powerful cantrips are innocuous, but arguably more powerful in the abstract than any of those. so people are wary of them, and rightfully so because consistency is king in magic.
i DO however think that modern, at this point, can absorb more powerful things than many give it credit. what needs to be avoided is having too high of a density of cantrips, but just adding preordain wouldnt be doing that.
so its one of those things where i dont think it should be portrayed as some boogieman, but i also dont think the power of the card should be downplayed.
also ponder has the shuffling clause. that alone is a good enough reason to keep it from the format.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm not trying to downplay it. It is a solid consistency tool in Legacy and probably would be even better in Modern than it is in Legacy. How do I know that Preordain is probably fine? Ponder and Preordain were played before in Modern. They were extremely good, played in All-In Twin, Storm, and Infect. Since those times, Splinter Twin, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Gitaxian Probe, and Blazing Shoal have all been banned. Preordain AND Ponder both helped find those power cards. Those cards don't exist in Modern anymore.
I feel like the power level of Modern kind of went down after some bannings, but has since found its niche and is probably just as powerful as many times before. I even think that Splinter Twin (I'm going to hate myself for opening this can of snakes.) is okay on power level in today's Modern. I could see Jeskai, Grixis, UW, Storm, maybe Grixis Grishoalbrand, Ad Nauseam, and some rogue decks using Preordain. It's an amazing cantrip. Several of those decks get hated out already by Modern's best deck - Humans. The Control decks get hated out by … just not being quite good enough, although pretty close. Preordain doesn't change all that much of this. The worst thing that it can do is make Storm more consistent, as either Sleight of Hand or Opt gets the AXE.
*Believe me, if Preordain helped find Hollow One, Mantis Rider, Meddling Mage, or Cranial Plating, I would at least be somewhat apprehensive to a potential unbanning. Luckily for many advocating Preordain, Grixis Shadow has seen a big recent fall a few months ago. So, it's really the time to advocate for it because who knows when Caleb Sherer is going to win an event (amazing player and amazing person) and people will say that Storm is waaaaay to good?
**Also, consistency is king in most formats, but it is not everything. There's a reason that Bogles has top 8ed more tournaments recently than Titanshift. Titanshift is one of the most consistent decks in Modern, consisting of 27 lands, 11-12 ramp spells, some creature removal, some midrange cards (BBE) or not if you forego those, and 10 win-cons. Outside of Tron, it doesn't get any more consistent than that.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I can't imagine people playing Preordain in Miracles, Leovold decks, or anything else, but honestly Legacy is a place for innovation and odd people try odd things. Did you know that people play Veteran Explorer in Legacy...and actually don't lose to everything?
Excuse me!? Do not besmirch NicFit.
Also FWIW, I've added a 2nd Preordain to my ANT deck and I'm tempted by a 3rd. I really like being able to filter some more things out of the way when I want a specfici card rather then taking my chances with the shuffle from Ponder if it's not there.
BBD and others are coming around to Preordain in the 4C Leovold decks as well. Setting up draws there is arguably more important then any other time that counter balance isn't in play.
Interesting, many people seem to be going the other way (fewer instead of more). I have 1 in my ANT flex slot. (Any chance you could PM your list? I still like my 1 of grim tutor)
And back on topic preordain is a great card, powerful but seems to be seeing slightly reduced play in legacy lately would love to see lists with 4 of preordain in modern and agree that the delayed cantrips lead to missed triggers and sad times so seem unlikely to get a standard reprint soon.
I have said it in the past, and I think I won't get tired of saying that. Preordain/Ponder are never getting unbanned in modern. But let's leave Ponder aside for a second, because it's a Legacy power level card.
1) Preordain, runs the danger of being in too many decks, and also the danger of "Sam Stoddart: driving man of the games play out the same way".
2) Preordain makes Grixis Shadow consistent enough. That is it's problem. The deck suffers from the "too many random redraws" problem, thus making it difficult at times to find a threat. Bauble, Scour, Wraith, Serum might be in the opening hand and you don't ever get to draw a creature some times, or some other times don't get to draw it fast enough. Preordain solves all that. It makes the deck more than Tier 1 again, and there is a problem right there.
I am not afraid of Storm though, because it does not give a faster kill for it. SS and Rite are obnoxious cards, and would surely give one. Those cards are out of the question though.
3) Preordain runs the danger of making more blue combo decks too consistent down the line, and then Wizards might need to unban the card.
what blue decks that arent already in the market for cantrips would play preordain? also which non-blue decks would move into the color specifically for the card? if you can think of anything that isnt some fringe 'maybe', then id love to hear it.
grixis shadow being too good? its in the same boat as every other blue deck running cantrips. it would swap in preordain to supplement thought scour. at which point the power differential is just between preordain and serum visions (or opt); which isnt very large. adding preordain on top of visions and scour just makes the 'too much air' problem worse.
#3 is the only concern with any merit imo. even then, like with grixis shadow, the change in power isnt between having no cantrips then having preordain, its from an existing cantrip being upgraded.
if having games play out similarly is such a large concern then stoneforge and gsz shouldnt be unbanned either. tutors are the most potent form of consistency tools. stoneforge is grabbing the same piece of equipment every game, and gsz acts as virtual copies of all of your creatures including a turn 1 mana accelerant.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
You wouldn't play preordain over thought scour personally, the power to delve for gurmag angler/tasigur as fast as possible is a huge difference in the mirror.
The only concern at this point for ponder/pre ordain unban is how the solitaire decks will change. They would run every single copy of cantrips possible and these are just the better cantrip upgrades.
I think SFM is fine in modern? I believe it gives humans too much of a boost however as it stands because SoFI is a powerful equipment.
GSZ looks fine as 2 Mana search for a dork, One Mana search dryad arbor isn't good action for the turn. Modern is too proactive compared to legacy. Maybe it would give the G/W vizier company a stronger tool for consistent ballista OTKs? Not sure if this would be detrimental to its' unbanning.
Preordain would be ok, maybe cause storm to get better (which is risky) and instantly become the most played cantrip in the format. I would love to have it. But it is not the most likely card to be unbanned. A Preordain unban would dramaticly lower the chances of a twin or SFM unban imo. I would rather have some other cards unbanned that could create new decks instead of just increase consistency. Preordain is cool, but I would rather target some other cards.
You wouldn't play preordain over thought scour personally, the power to delve for gurmag angler/tasigur as fast as possible is a huge difference in the mirror.
The only concern at this point for ponder/pre ordain unban is how the solitaire decks will change. They would run every single copy of cantrips possible and these are just the better cantrip upgrades.
I think SFM is fine in modern? I believe it gives humans too much of a boost however as it stands because SoFI is a powerful equipment.
GSZ looks fine as 2 Mana search for a dork, One Mana search dryad arbor isn't good action for the turn. Modern is too proactive compared to legacy. Maybe it would give the G/W vizier company a stronger tool for consistent ballista OTKs? Not sure if this would be detrimental to its' unbanning.
i meant that GDS would likely play preordain with scour. the deck has 8 slots for cantrips + street wraith. bauble versions would have to make a choice though.
the same is true for combo decks like storm. they are already playing the max number of cantrips that the deck can realistically support. at some point you need cards that actually do stuff. no deck would be able to support preordain, serum visions, opt, sleight of hand, and thought scour. at least not one i can think of.
stoneforge is a very unlikely inclusion into humans. im sure some people will try it, but is a non-human that takes the place of 6 other humans in the deck. stoneforge finding a sword is good and all, but it seems counter-productive to sacrifice the elements that makes the deck good in the first place (ie a high density of disruptive humans).
gsz for arbor is functionally the same as playing a turn 1 mana dork. so you get to cut dorks to play more real creatures, and gsz acts like extra copies of all of them. the biggest strike against the card is its potential to displace similar effects that already exist in the format. even if the card may technically be within acceptable power levels, wizards may prefer people building around cards like collected company, chord, and eldritch evolution. it really could go either way.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
i still cant see the problem of upgrading cantrips in modern. GDS gets better? what's the problem with that? the deck will still lose against the same decks as now. Storm gets better? the boost of consistency is minimal with just preordain (maybe ponder would be too much, but i still think is fine), the same for ad nauseam
The real upgrade is for fair decks playing blue, not for combo decks, cause the unfair decks already play a lot of cantrips to find their pieces, so a minimal upgrade on one of them is not a lot
about other cards: i think that SFM and GSZ would be very good for the format. Twin would be fine too, but people has bad memories about the card, so maybe it needs more time to return
The only card I would like too see unban is preordain, it's a good update for the format and I think wotc shouldn't let fair blue decks be bad because of a specific deck. if storm becomes too good ban storm as a deck via banning grapeshot or manamorphose.
as for SFM, the only problem I see about the card is white decks becoming 4SFM+1 batterskull+70cards. I would prefer a printing of new more powerful white cards, just don't know how considering the color restriction but that is not my job
It doesn't seem like much of an upgrade, but Wizards is hesitant to help Storm in any way, and they don't like overly consistent games (which also hurts GSZ's chance). It's not that suddenly the format is broken with preordain or GSZ, it's that it's supporting archetypes and play patterns that Wizards has specifically taken action against throughout their history of moderating formats - including the very recent banning of Top in legacy. These tools would be sweet, I just don't think they're even on the table.
It doesn't seem like much of an upgrade, but Wizards is hesitant to help Storm in any way, and they don't like overly consistent games (which also hurts GSZ's chance). It's not that suddenly the format is broken with preordain or GSZ, it's that it's supporting archetypes and play patterns that Wizards has specifically taken action against throughout their history of moderating formats - including the very recent banning of Top in legacy. These tools would be sweet, I just don't think they're even on the table.
agreed. i think people are just super optimistic right now in the wake of the pro tour returning and jace/bbe. nothing is certain, but its a sign that wizards might have shifted their approach to curating the banlist/format. more inclination to unban rather than ban as a means to 'adjust' the format. if it was an experiment to determine IF they should shift their stance, then the results were positive (jace actually did something. yay).
the next unban, or the lack of one for a significant period of time, will tell a more complete story.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Personally I think the existence of Dampening Sphere and the upcoming Infernal Judgement are signs that we are seeing cards designed essentially for modern and won't be seeing much in the way of unbans or, hopefully, bans from here out. There can be exceptions of course, but it looks like they are going to try and use play design to get of and/or prevent quagmires like Eldrazi Winter or Tron.
I think SFM is fine in modern? I believe it gives humans too much of a boost however as it stands because SoFI is a powerful equipment.
I'm rather dubious that Stoneforge Mystic would see play in Humans. There are two big problems with it.
The first is the obvious fact it isn't a Human. Your Stoneforge Mystic isn't going to make Champion of the Parish more powerful and it's not going to get stronger due to Thalia's Lieutenant. It lacks synergy with the rest of the deck. There's a reason the only non-Human creature the deck habitually plays is Kataki and that's only because Kataki is so astoundingly good against artifact decks. It not being a Human also makes it slightly harder to cast, but it being harder to cast isn't the real issue, which brings us to the second problem.
The second problem is that, with its current manabase, Humans cannot activate it reliably. Oh, sure, it can cast it, but there's only 7 cards in the deck that can actually activate its ability because Cavern, Territory, and Ziggurat can only be used to cast cards, not activate abilities.
Humans obviously could try to get around this by changing up its manabase. It could run different rainbow lands (which are all way worse than the ones it's currently running), it could try dropping one of its colors, or it could try running the usual fetch+shock manabase. But doing so weakens what's a major strength of the deck, its ability to run 5 colors with minimal drawback. To accommodate Stoneforge Mystic, Humans will have to give up its incredible manabase.
It's theoretically possible that Stoneforge Mystic is just so freaking amazing in the format that it's worth losing the Humans synergy and having to weaken the manabase. But if Stoneforge Mystic is that good, then the issue would be Stoneforge Mystic itself, not its ability to see play in Humans.
SFM was a casualty of the same standard that had Jace banned, so she is definitely okay for modern. The better question is what exactly does someone do with her in modern? I want to reach for Batterskull or a good sword, but I'm not convinced it's even that good anymore. Most artifact based decks are now combo based or aggro and while it can cheat really powerful equipment onto the battlefield, it can't negate the equip costs of equipment.
The way I look at her is that she does three things:
1) gives a body to chump block.
2) fetches a card from the deck, thus delaying mid-game top decking.
3) can cheat really expensive things onto the battlefield if they are equipment.
The two extremes on the equipment fetch are 0 cost equipment for combos and strong 3+ cost equipment like swords and phyrexian living weapons. I've used her in legacy D&T before to get swords to great effect, but that deck is very swingy at times depending on the match up. Maybe Cheerios could use her to help reach the critical mass it needs?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
im sure some people would try it in affinity for plating, or as an enabler for the thopter sword combo. what i see people doing is focusing on a turn 3 batterskull. but its not like those are the only two cards in a persons deck.
just in cards stoneforge is a 2-for-1. it places pressure on the opponent to have removal before you untap (similar to bob). once you do though your options go up drastically because you can activate at instant speed. if you get to 5 mana with her on the field, you can pick up and replay skull to dodge removal or renew the token continuously. all while still having the option to just do other powerful stuff that your deck should be full of.
stoneforge isnt some aggro card you are trying to curve out with. so of course presenting it in that light is going to make it look weak.
i have no idea how good the swords would be, or how much you need to build around them to make them playable.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
SFM was a casualty of the same standard that had Jace banned, so she is definitely okay for modern. The better question is what exactly does someone do with her in modern? I want to reach for Batterskull or a good sword, but I'm not convinced it's even that good anymore. Most artifact based decks are now combo based or aggro and while it can cheat really powerful equipment onto the battlefield, it can't negate the equip costs of equipment.
The way I look at her is that she does three things:
1) gives a body to chump block.
2) fetches a card from the deck, thus delaying mid-game top decking.
3) can cheat really expensive things onto the battlefield if they are equipment.
The two extremes on the equipment fetch are 0 cost equipment for combos and strong 3+ cost equipment like swords and phyrexian living weapons. I've used her in legacy D&T before to get swords to great effect, but that deck is very swingy at times depending on the match up. Maybe Cheerios could use her to help reach the critical mass it needs?
I don't think SFM has to grab something exceptionally broken. She's a 2 mana tutor that leaves a body behind. Copying/blinking her, grabbing living weapons, or cheating a bit on mana are all just icing on the cake imo. Imagine a Jeskai variant with SFM and Saheeli? It's just a ton of value flying around as you play normal magic. I'd play her as a 2 mana tutor in that deck if the equip I was grabbing was strong enough. Yes I know we have Steelshaper's Gift, but the body is relevant enough for the extra mana imo.
I concur, she's fine for modern. I don't care if people are tutoring for cards they can't cast when people are consistently cruising through tournaments with a deck like storm fighting through 2-3 pieces of hate in g2/3 after an easy t3 in g1.
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Oh Indeed I look at most Blue and White creatures and think man they could easily shave off 1 to 2 mana.
White needs cheaper big creatures period or alternate casting methods that Black gets. I mean white should be able sacrifice for the greater good or I don't know exert (prayer) to reduce cost. I am tired of overcosted Angels especially.
Blue needs some viable keywords on it cards besides Flying and Flash. Maybe Haste...Blue does control time. Better ETBs and activated Abilities as well.
From Delver, to Snaps, to Thing in the Ice, to Enigma Drake, to Torrential Gearhulk...whats the problem with Blue's creatures?
The issue (if there is one) is that Green's the Creature Colour, Reds the Aggro Colour, and Black is the alternative cost Colour...and none of those are 'feels bad' for people.
Counters, and Taxes, are however 'feels bad'.
I dont want a single better 'blue creature' to be printed. Its irrelevant to me.
I want Wizards to get over their fear of Counterspell, and Filter/Scry. Thats literally it.
Spirits
To be fair, there is a difference between a new card taking over Standard compared to an existing card being reprinted and doing so; the latter is much more embarrassing because one can say they should have known better. Still, I can't help but notice that the Standards that had those cards that are supposedly "too powerful" for it were largely enjoyed more than recent Standards. There certainly were far fewer bannings.
However, in regards to the claim that it's not an acceptable reason for not reprinting cantrips, I would disagree. They brought back Opt, which is one of the best cheap cantrips they've had in Standard for quite a while. Though to be honest, I think the cantrips we have in Modern are actually pretty good, people just keep comparing them to the dramatically overpowered Legacy cantrips, which is sort of like concluding Brainstorm isn't good because compared to Ancestral Recall it's pretty bad. I think Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand, and Opt are reasonable cantrips for Standard, though admittedly until recently Wizards of the Coast declined to even print cantrips of that quality in Standard.
In regards to Portent, though, that card is just not going to return to Standard, because they have (correctly) moved away from delayed cantrips.
You know, it always did confuse me that after apparently considering Man-o'-War too powerful (they printed a strictly worse version of it at 3U), they would turn around and make a better version of it in Reflector Mage. To be fair, it's 1UW instead of 2U so an upgrade isn't unreasonable (though it's a bit odd if they didn't want Man-o'-War around that they'd think 1UW merits an upgrade), but I think they should have had the upgrade simply be the inability to cast it next turn, and have the power/toughness remain 2/2.
It would, but if we're going for Kicker counterspells, I think I might prefer something like:
Halt 1U
Instant
Kicker 1U
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 2. If you paid the kicker cost, counter that spell instead.
Although as I've remarked before, if they're really scared about printing something like Counterspell, they could always reprint Cavern of Souls as a foil, which would be much appreciated as the card needs a reprint anyway.
Excuse me!? Do not besmirch NicFit.
Also FWIW, I've added a 2nd Preordain to my ANT deck and I'm tempted by a 3rd. I really like being able to filter some more things out of the way when I want a specfici card rather then taking my chances with the shuffle from Ponder if it's not there.
BBD and others are coming around to Preordain in the 4C Leovold decks as well. Setting up draws there is arguably more important then any other time that counter balance isn't in play.
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
not that ponder isnt absurdly good, but being able to scry has its own strength and weaknesses.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)And I personally think that Ponder should be unbanned as well, although I do realize that it's riskier. I mostly talk about Preordain because it's more "acceptable" to do so. I swear that there's some people in here that have lost to Ponder or Preordain a million times, but never have lost to Slippery Bogle, Deceiver Exarch, Inkmoth Nexus, Conflagrate, Primeval Titan, Meddling Mage, Lightning Storm, etc. I would estimate that people have lost at least 100 times as often to Preordain in their lives than the rest of the cards combined. At least it seems so...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'd rather see Preordain for a few years before considering Ponder
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
those other cards are things that actually kill you. cheap powerful cantrips are innocuous, but arguably more powerful in the abstract than any of those. so people are wary of them, and rightfully so because consistency is king in magic.
i DO however think that modern, at this point, can absorb more powerful things than many give it credit. what needs to be avoided is having too high of a density of cantrips, but just adding preordain wouldnt be doing that.
so its one of those things where i dont think it should be portrayed as some boogieman, but i also dont think the power of the card should be downplayed.
also ponder has the shuffling clause. that alone is a good enough reason to keep it from the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I feel like the power level of Modern kind of went down after some bannings, but has since found its niche and is probably just as powerful as many times before. I even think that Splinter Twin (I'm going to hate myself for opening this can of snakes.) is okay on power level in today's Modern. I could see Jeskai, Grixis, UW, Storm, maybe Grixis Grishoalbrand, Ad Nauseam, and some rogue decks using Preordain. It's an amazing cantrip. Several of those decks get hated out already by Modern's best deck - Humans. The Control decks get hated out by … just not being quite good enough, although pretty close. Preordain doesn't change all that much of this. The worst thing that it can do is make Storm more consistent, as either Sleight of Hand or Opt gets the AXE.
*Believe me, if Preordain helped find Hollow One, Mantis Rider, Meddling Mage, or Cranial Plating, I would at least be somewhat apprehensive to a potential unbanning. Luckily for many advocating Preordain, Grixis Shadow has seen a big recent fall a few months ago. So, it's really the time to advocate for it because who knows when Caleb Sherer is going to win an event (amazing player and amazing person) and people will say that Storm is waaaaay to good?
**Also, consistency is king in most formats, but it is not everything. There's a reason that Bogles has top 8ed more tournaments recently than Titanshift. Titanshift is one of the most consistent decks in Modern, consisting of 27 lands, 11-12 ramp spells, some creature removal, some midrange cards (BBE) or not if you forego those, and 10 win-cons. Outside of Tron, it doesn't get any more consistent than that.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Interesting, many people seem to be going the other way (fewer instead of more). I have 1 in my ANT flex slot. (Any chance you could PM your list? I still like my 1 of grim tutor)
And back on topic preordain is a great card, powerful but seems to be seeing slightly reduced play in legacy lately would love to see lists with 4 of preordain in modern and agree that the delayed cantrips lead to missed triggers and sad times so seem unlikely to get a standard reprint soon.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
what blue decks that arent already in the market for cantrips would play preordain? also which non-blue decks would move into the color specifically for the card? if you can think of anything that isnt some fringe 'maybe', then id love to hear it.
grixis shadow being too good? its in the same boat as every other blue deck running cantrips. it would swap in preordain to supplement thought scour. at which point the power differential is just between preordain and serum visions (or opt); which isnt very large. adding preordain on top of visions and scour just makes the 'too much air' problem worse.
#3 is the only concern with any merit imo. even then, like with grixis shadow, the change in power isnt between having no cantrips then having preordain, its from an existing cantrip being upgraded.
if having games play out similarly is such a large concern then stoneforge and gsz shouldnt be unbanned either. tutors are the most potent form of consistency tools. stoneforge is grabbing the same piece of equipment every game, and gsz acts as virtual copies of all of your creatures including a turn 1 mana accelerant.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The only concern at this point for ponder/pre ordain unban is how the solitaire decks will change. They would run every single copy of cantrips possible and these are just the better cantrip upgrades.
I think SFM is fine in modern? I believe it gives humans too much of a boost however as it stands because SoFI is a powerful equipment.
GSZ looks fine as 2 Mana search for a dork, One Mana search dryad arbor isn't good action for the turn. Modern is too proactive compared to legacy. Maybe it would give the G/W vizier company a stronger tool for consistent ballista OTKs? Not sure if this would be detrimental to its' unbanning.
i meant that GDS would likely play preordain with scour. the deck has 8 slots for cantrips + street wraith. bauble versions would have to make a choice though.
the same is true for combo decks like storm. they are already playing the max number of cantrips that the deck can realistically support. at some point you need cards that actually do stuff. no deck would be able to support preordain, serum visions, opt, sleight of hand, and thought scour. at least not one i can think of.
stoneforge is a very unlikely inclusion into humans. im sure some people will try it, but is a non-human that takes the place of 6 other humans in the deck. stoneforge finding a sword is good and all, but it seems counter-productive to sacrifice the elements that makes the deck good in the first place (ie a high density of disruptive humans).
gsz for arbor is functionally the same as playing a turn 1 mana dork. so you get to cut dorks to play more real creatures, and gsz acts like extra copies of all of them. the biggest strike against the card is its potential to displace similar effects that already exist in the format. even if the card may technically be within acceptable power levels, wizards may prefer people building around cards like collected company, chord, and eldritch evolution. it really could go either way.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The real upgrade is for fair decks playing blue, not for combo decks, cause the unfair decks already play a lot of cantrips to find their pieces, so a minimal upgrade on one of them is not a lot
about other cards: i think that SFM and GSZ would be very good for the format. Twin would be fine too, but people has bad memories about the card, so maybe it needs more time to return
as for SFM, the only problem I see about the card is white decks becoming 4SFM+1 batterskull+70cards. I would prefer a printing of new more powerful white cards, just don't know how considering the color restriction but that is not my job
agreed. i think people are just super optimistic right now in the wake of the pro tour returning and jace/bbe. nothing is certain, but its a sign that wizards might have shifted their approach to curating the banlist/format. more inclination to unban rather than ban as a means to 'adjust' the format. if it was an experiment to determine IF they should shift their stance, then the results were positive (jace actually did something. yay).
the next unban, or the lack of one for a significant period of time, will tell a more complete story.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The first is the obvious fact it isn't a Human. Your Stoneforge Mystic isn't going to make Champion of the Parish more powerful and it's not going to get stronger due to Thalia's Lieutenant. It lacks synergy with the rest of the deck. There's a reason the only non-Human creature the deck habitually plays is Kataki and that's only because Kataki is so astoundingly good against artifact decks. It not being a Human also makes it slightly harder to cast, but it being harder to cast isn't the real issue, which brings us to the second problem.
The second problem is that, with its current manabase, Humans cannot activate it reliably. Oh, sure, it can cast it, but there's only 7 cards in the deck that can actually activate its ability because Cavern, Territory, and Ziggurat can only be used to cast cards, not activate abilities.
Humans obviously could try to get around this by changing up its manabase. It could run different rainbow lands (which are all way worse than the ones it's currently running), it could try dropping one of its colors, or it could try running the usual fetch+shock manabase. But doing so weakens what's a major strength of the deck, its ability to run 5 colors with minimal drawback. To accommodate Stoneforge Mystic, Humans will have to give up its incredible manabase.
It's theoretically possible that Stoneforge Mystic is just so freaking amazing in the format that it's worth losing the Humans synergy and having to weaken the manabase. But if Stoneforge Mystic is that good, then the issue would be Stoneforge Mystic itself, not its ability to see play in Humans.
The way I look at her is that she does three things:
1) gives a body to chump block.
2) fetches a card from the deck, thus delaying mid-game top decking.
3) can cheat really expensive things onto the battlefield if they are equipment.
The two extremes on the equipment fetch are 0 cost equipment for combos and strong 3+ cost equipment like swords and phyrexian living weapons. I've used her in legacy D&T before to get swords to great effect, but that deck is very swingy at times depending on the match up. Maybe Cheerios could use her to help reach the critical mass it needs?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
just in cards stoneforge is a 2-for-1. it places pressure on the opponent to have removal before you untap (similar to bob). once you do though your options go up drastically because you can activate at instant speed. if you get to 5 mana with her on the field, you can pick up and replay skull to dodge removal or renew the token continuously. all while still having the option to just do other powerful stuff that your deck should be full of.
stoneforge isnt some aggro card you are trying to curve out with. so of course presenting it in that light is going to make it look weak.
i have no idea how good the swords would be, or how much you need to build around them to make them playable.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I don't think SFM has to grab something exceptionally broken. She's a 2 mana tutor that leaves a body behind. Copying/blinking her, grabbing living weapons, or cheating a bit on mana are all just icing on the cake imo. Imagine a Jeskai variant with SFM and Saheeli? It's just a ton of value flying around as you play normal magic. I'd play her as a 2 mana tutor in that deck if the equip I was grabbing was strong enough. Yes I know we have Steelshaper's Gift, but the body is relevant enough for the extra mana imo.
I concur, she's fine for modern. I don't care if people are tutoring for cards they can't cast when people are consistently cruising through tournaments with a deck like storm fighting through 2-3 pieces of hate in g2/3 after an easy t3 in g1.