So, which shell do you think is the strongest? Please leave an idea of your deck list if you have something not given as a choice. Why do you feel yours is the strongest?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I don't think it's the most powerful but I'm gonna be testing a grixis build with JTMS, LOTV and Chandra TOD. so I gues smore of a midrange Grixis build similar to the old blue jund decks
I like UB or Grixis, picturing more of Delver meets 8-Rack levels of discard, with Jace available as needed, along with TiTi. brutal, soul crushing tempo/control, with Jace to just break their spirit
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
RUG, of what I have faced online, and its not close.
This was my inclination. I'm not sure how many times I've said this here on mtgs, but I have a sneaky feeling that something in RUG is going to be somewhat busted. I should be more specific. I mean it will be very good and Tier 1. I don't think it will warrant a ban at all though - just murder non big mana or non combo decks.
What suggestions can anyone give on this SUPER ROUGH draft that I made in 5 min?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
My guess would be UW. UW is solid right now, and I think Field of Ruins is going to be an all star. I think the format is going to revolve around four things: Jace, BBE, going under Jace (fast decks), and going way over Jace (big mana). Field of Ruins is going to be good against Tron and any of the 3/4c decks that are being greedy with Jace + BBE together. I also think counters are going to be good against the various combo decks that will float around trying to get under. Having access to good MB sweepers also seems like a good plan.
I think UW or Grixis are going to be the best two shells; with Sultai and Temur running not far behind but with Grixia and UW having much better board control - which counts for a lot here.
Yeah that looks reasonable FoodchainGoblins. I dont know you have enough spells to make snaps worth it, but the core of it is an insane advantage engine, and they all become beaters real quick.
UR moon decks are a contender for sure, but kiki is probably the weakest of the three variants (kiki, breach and madcap). Having said that, kiki is the version that I run. Tested the other night with 2 jtms, was pretty sweet.
I've messed around with Temur Jace/BBE shenanigans, and it's awesome against value decks that have weak Card Advantage engines. It dumpsters Abzan, Classical Jund, Traverse BGRu Shadow, BGx midrange, Wx Hatebears and the like. The big downside with the Temur shell is that you can't run much in the way of instant speed interaction below 4cmc. That means it just loses to a lot of decks that win by comboing out. The Storm MU is particularly awful, but Grishoalbrand, BRx Hollow One, Bogles, Mardu Pyromancer, and most wide or fast strategies give it fits. Also decks that run maindeck hate, like Humans and Lantern, are rough matchups.
My money is on a strong discard package with cheap stack interaction being the way to make Jace work. A low to the ground UB control list is probably to end up being the strongest shell for Jace because it gets to cripple the opposing deck before resolving Jace on turn 6 or 7. Temur, I think, will always be a bit of a meta call. Sultai ultimately is going to end up in a tempo/midrangey build to take adavntage of Grim Flayer and the other awesome Green Creatures- JtMS is probably going to be a sideboard card for that sort of list. Grixis, Esper, and UW are all good shells, but I think UB will probably end up being a little bit better at protecting Jace.
UR Kiki wtf?
Should be UR Blood Moon. Just think about it. Blood Moon turn 3, Jace bounce turn 4. Lock complete. I think it's either straight U/W control or U/R Blood Moon. Or at least some kind of two color combination. U/B with IoK and Fatal Push sounds awesome, too.
Btw, is Jund with Blue supposed to be a 4 color deck or just Sultai?
A friend is testing UR Kiki online and he said that it is pretty strong. He says it's the new "Twin," but he can speak in hyperbole sometimes.
Jund with Jace is just regular Jund with BBE and a stretched manabase for Jace, like what happened briefly in BBE Standard.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
UR Kiki wtf?
Should be UR Blood Moon. Just think about it. Blood Moon turn 3, Jace bounce turn 4. Lock complete. I think it's either straight U/W control or U/R Blood Moon. Or at least some kind of two color combination. U/B with IoK and Fatal Push sounds awesome, too.
Btw, is Jund with Blue supposed to be a 4 color deck or just Sultai?
A friend is testing UR Kiki online and he said that it is pretty strong. He says it's the new "Twin," but he can speak in hyperbole sometimes.
Jund with Jace is just regular Jund with BBE and a stretched manabase for Jace, like what happened briefly in BBE Standard.
I played the hell out of UR Kiki after Twin died. I dont know that the meta is just more friendly to it now maybe, but it was simply too slow before. There's no way its the new 'Twin' because Twin was on another level. Its the Tier 2 Twin, perhaps, but why not just play Resto Kiki?
UR Kiki wtf?
Should be UR Blood Moon. Just think about it. Blood Moon turn 3, Jace bounce turn 4. Lock complete. I think it's either straight U/W control or U/R Blood Moon. Or at least some kind of two color combination. U/B with IoK and Fatal Push sounds awesome, too.
Btw, is Jund with Blue supposed to be a 4 color deck or just Sultai?
A friend is testing UR Kiki online and he said that it is pretty strong. He says it's the new "Twin," but he can speak in hyperbole sometimes.
Jund with Jace is just regular Jund with BBE and a stretched manabase for Jace, like what happened briefly in BBE Standard.
I played the hell out of UR Kiki after Twin died. I dont know that the meta is just more friendly to it now maybe, but it was simply too slow before. There's no way its the new 'Twin' because Twin was on another level. Its the Tier 2 Twin, perhaps, but why not just play Resto Kiki?
My guess would be that he doesn't prefer White in the deck, mostly for Blood Moon reasons. He has been playing UR decks for quite a while and if there's any "shard" I'd put him in, it would be Grixis. I know that UR Twin had some real advantages before, even if Grixis took the trophy for a while. I don't ever think I've seen him play White (since near the inception of Modern when he ran Esper Control), outside of just playing Jeskai a little bit recently.
Maybe it's for curve considerations? Deceiver Exarch, Jace, Kiki looks better on the curve than Resto Angel, Jace, Kiki and Blood Moon is big here as well. That being said, I've seen Blood Moon be less effective in the recent year or so, even if it is assumed to be better in the upcoming BBE/JAce meta.
I think it's doable. After Twin got banned, a guy at my LGS won 2 FNMs in a row (how do I know; I ID'd in Round 5 and Round 6 of both of them) with UR Kiki. These were 40-50 player FNMs with semi competitive players, unlike the 20-30 person FNMs that I play at nowadays (where most of the better players are from that previous FNM spot that closed down). He also won a Staples tournament in Los Angeles with UR Kiki. (I think he got 9th at the Los Angeles Grand Prix 2 years ago with Jeskai Nahiri w/ Tamiyo, the Moon Sage in his SB, but doesn't play much nowadays.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
UR Kiki wtf?
Should be UR Blood Moon. Just think about it. Blood Moon turn 3, Jace bounce turn 4. Lock complete. I think it's either straight U/W control or U/R Blood Moon. Or at least some kind of two color combination. U/B with IoK and Fatal Push sounds awesome, too.
Btw, is Jund with Blue supposed to be a 4 color deck or just Sultai?
A friend is testing UR Kiki online and he said that it is pretty strong. He says it's the new "Twin," but he can speak in hyperbole sometimes.
Jund with Jace is just regular Jund with BBE and a stretched manabase for Jace, like what happened briefly in BBE Standard.
I played the hell out of UR Kiki after Twin died. I dont know that the meta is just more friendly to it now maybe, but it was simply too slow before. There's no way its the new 'Twin' because Twin was on another level. Its the Tier 2 Twin, perhaps, but why not just play Resto Kiki?
....Jace?
Seriously though, blood moon and jace are a better kiki shell, if you are looking at Resto, you should probably be playing Saheeli Rai instead.
You can play Jace + Resto too though, I can see how adding even a white splash makes that mana base hell. Kiki at RRR has always been a pain in the ass.
You can play Jace + Resto too though, I can see how adding even a white splash makes that mana base hell. Kiki at RRR has always been a pain in the ass.
The RRR is also difficult, even in the UR shell, because you often want to fetch Island Island Island to play Cryptic under Blood Moon. The 5CMC cost on a 2/2 body is already a huge downgrade, but that triple red is a real price to the deck's speed and consistency. That being said, I'm likely playing it tonight because I no longer care about winning and just want to cast all my foil blue and red things.
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I'm not seeing Cryptics in these lists, its normally ramp (Noble) into threats, into BBE or Jace and then just an avalanche of advantage.
I'm still wondering what those killer RUG lists are like. If they're like the one in the last Modern Challenge with no counterspells and 3 hate bears maindeck, then combo decks run over them pre-board. If they have enough counterspells to stave them off (like my test list), then BBE Jund is beating it around half the time pre-board (according to my testing). BBE Jund often targeted discards the haymakers, destroys the meat, and takes advantage of tempo loss generated by holding up counterspell mana.
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Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Right now, I'm trying to jam UR Kiki/Pestermite/Moon, but I definitely don't consider it the most powerful.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
if i had to give one answer right now i'd put money on bant. rug is a very close second
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)This was my inclination. I'm not sure how many times I've said this here on mtgs, but I have a sneaky feeling that something in RUG is going to be somewhat busted. I should be more specific. I mean it will be very good and Tier 1. I don't think it will warrant a ban at all though - just murder non big mana or non combo decks.
What suggestions can anyone give on this SUPER ROUGH draft that I made in 5 min?
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spreading Seas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Cryptic Command
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Raging Ravine
2 Breeding Pool
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Roast
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Engineered Explosives
I think once I cut the greedy cards, the deck can be more streamlined. It's super tough to think about what can hang with most of the top decks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Spirits
My money is on a strong discard package with cheap stack interaction being the way to make Jace work. A low to the ground UB control list is probably to end up being the strongest shell for Jace because it gets to cripple the opposing deck before resolving Jace on turn 6 or 7. Temur, I think, will always be a bit of a meta call. Sultai ultimately is going to end up in a tempo/midrangey build to take adavntage of Grim Flayer and the other awesome Green Creatures- JtMS is probably going to be a sideboard card for that sort of list. Grixis, Esper, and UW are all good shells, but I think UB will probably end up being a little bit better at protecting Jace.
(spellstutter sprite hasn't come up enough during testing to evaluate yet)
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tap-out-control-jace-unban/
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
A friend is testing UR Kiki online and he said that it is pretty strong. He says it's the new "Twin," but he can speak in hyperbole sometimes.
Jund with Jace is just regular Jund with BBE and a stretched manabase for Jace, like what happened briefly in BBE Standard.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I played the hell out of UR Kiki after Twin died. I dont know that the meta is just more friendly to it now maybe, but it was simply too slow before. There's no way its the new 'Twin' because Twin was on another level. Its the Tier 2 Twin, perhaps, but why not just play Resto Kiki?
Spirits
My guess would be that he doesn't prefer White in the deck, mostly for Blood Moon reasons. He has been playing UR decks for quite a while and if there's any "shard" I'd put him in, it would be Grixis. I know that UR Twin had some real advantages before, even if Grixis took the trophy for a while. I don't ever think I've seen him play White (since near the inception of Modern when he ran Esper Control), outside of just playing Jeskai a little bit recently.
Maybe it's for curve considerations? Deceiver Exarch, Jace, Kiki looks better on the curve than Resto Angel, Jace, Kiki and Blood Moon is big here as well. That being said, I've seen Blood Moon be less effective in the recent year or so, even if it is assumed to be better in the upcoming BBE/JAce meta.
I think it's doable. After Twin got banned, a guy at my LGS won 2 FNMs in a row (how do I know; I ID'd in Round 5 and Round 6 of both of them) with UR Kiki. These were 40-50 player FNMs with semi competitive players, unlike the 20-30 person FNMs that I play at nowadays (where most of the better players are from that previous FNM spot that closed down). He also won a Staples tournament in Los Angeles with UR Kiki. (I think he got 9th at the Los Angeles Grand Prix 2 years ago with Jeskai Nahiri w/ Tamiyo, the Moon Sage in his SB, but doesn't play much nowadays.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)....Jace?
Seriously though, blood moon and jace are a better kiki shell, if you are looking at Resto, you should probably be playing Saheeli Rai instead.
Spirits
The RRR is also difficult, even in the UR shell, because you often want to fetch Island Island Island to play Cryptic under Blood Moon. The 5CMC cost on a 2/2 body is already a huge downgrade, but that triple red is a real price to the deck's speed and consistency. That being said, I'm likely playing it tonight because I no longer care about winning and just want to cast all my foil blue and red things.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
AV was seeing little to no play. yet suddenly jamming av, jace, bbe, and cryptics together works? aggro/combo decks just roll over that nonsense.
i expect more tame versions to surface with a lower curve and more pieces of early interaction.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I'm still wondering what those killer RUG lists are like. If they're like the one in the last Modern Challenge with no counterspells and 3 hate bears maindeck, then combo decks run over them pre-board. If they have enough counterspells to stave them off (like my test list), then BBE Jund is beating it around half the time pre-board (according to my testing). BBE Jund often targeted discards the haymakers, destroys the meat, and takes advantage of tempo loss generated by holding up counterspell mana.