Slightly off topic, but it's amusing to see "big data" used in a way that has only a tenuous relationship with its accepted meaning. I think the past few posters simply mean "data".
Slightly off topic, but it's amusing to see "big data" used in a way that has only a tenuous relationship with its accepted meaning. I think the past few posters simply mean "data".
They mean big data as in the big picture versus a local scene. It's not good usage, but MTG users in particular are not good at saying things correctly. (Saying blue to mean draw/go control, using linear with no definition at all, etc)
Well, Tron is a relatively inexpensive deck for new players to invest in and it's solid. Also, if Tron is a problem in a local Meta, options like Burn and various aggro decks are relatively inexpensive and easy to build by Modern standards. I think it could be even worse for a small local scene if to be competitive someone had to invest in Jund or Jace decks.
Complaining about a single deck archetype that dominates your local meta and then labeling Modern bad is ridiculous. Thinking that only "leeches" play combo decks or Tron decks is ridiculous. There's a lot in that post that is ridiculous to be honest
While I would agree that there is some misplaced blame here, I can understand where Gredras is coming from. If I were a small business owner, of a LGS, I would also be worried about competitive players coming in and stomping my other regulars and thus encouraging them to just not attend, sticking to the kitchen table instead.
I do think that there are some other options, as they've already started exploring. For example, working to provide competitive decks for other players who may not be able to afford them themselves. As another person mentioned, they could also start running Pauper events, where those with less funds might stand a better chance.
But I agree that it would be counter-productive to prohibit these "spikes" from bringing their A-game. There are steps that the individual players that are having a difficult time can do as well. Someone else pointed out that it's not beyond the realm of possibilities to make a straight-up land destruction deck against this metagame. Or, maindecking hate cards. If the community suffers to the degree that attendance is dwindling, then it's much easier to predict the metagame to support the idea of maindecking hate cards.
I'm sure that there are other options, like contacting Wizards and letting them know that maybe the secondary market does need a bit more help, at a slightly quicker pace. They've already begun the process of reprinting cards to possibly relieve that pressure, but maybe their main distributors need to make their voices heard. Running a profit on a cheaper secondary market is much better than just going out of business, and it's these people that need to let their voices be heard as well. This would at least put everyone on a level playing field.
But I think we can at least have some sympathy for these people. Having been a person who was tight on funds and getting beat down for years before my current career, and being good friends with a good number of store owners now, I can understand their situation.
Would be nice to have a creature version of Ghost Quarter. Something like:
Mine Stripper 1R
Creature - Goblin
Sacrifice Mine Stripper: destroy target land. Its controller may search his/her library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield. That player then shuffles his/her library.
1/1
Unlike Ghost Quarter, it doesn't set your land drop back a turn. And unlike Field of Ruin, you can activate it starting turn 2 before they can set up Tron on turn 3
Again, just printing more safety valves is a good idea period
your views about tron, and the format in general, arent being dismissed. people are just pointing out that your perspective, born from your experiences, isnt universally shared.
everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what they consider fun and what direction the modern format should go. yours is no more or less relevant than someone elses.
you say that the data collected about the format is incomplete, which very well may be true. however with no way to verify this it becomes just speculation.
the best we can do is use the information we have at hand and draw conclusions based on a set of established assumptions. tron isnt being overly played in competitive environments, nor is it winning more than other decks. tron has existed since the inception of modern, and the modern format is currently more popular than it has ever been.
given no indicators suggesting tron is a problem deck, is it really reasonable to take action because you personally find it unfun?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
There's also this whole issue/meme/perception, that certain design choices have been made to safe guard against 'bad feels' that you may get from say, Lantern, or Infect, or Tron, or Storm, or hard control, or cheap removal, or land destruction, or prison....
Not everyone wants to play Standard, and the price of admission to Modern, is that some of those 'bad feels' exist, to the extent of forming decks.
I hate Tron. I LOATHE anything Eldrazi. I have a solid dislike for Death and Taxes and even Ponza can be tilting.
That said, if those decks have cyclical counters in the meta game, thats not on me to decide its 'not good Magic'. Modern marches on.
I get what you're saying, but there's just no way for WotC to do anything about that. They have to make their decisions based on the big picture. They can't analyze the meta at each individual LGS, that's just not feasible. The LGS metas need to be self regulating. If your store meta was seeing a bunch of spikes playing Tron, then maybe people should have played Burn until they stopped showing up with Tron all the time. I don't like Tron either, but WotC can't ban it just because your personal meta had an over-representation of the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Would be nice to have a creature version of Ghost Quarter. Something like:
Mine Stripper 1R
Creature - Goblin
Sacrifice Mine Stripper: destroy target land. Its controller may search his/her library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield. That player then shuffles his/her library.
1/1
Unlike Ghost Quarter, it doesn't set your land drop back a turn. And unlike Field of Ruin, you can activate it starting turn 2 before they can set up Tron on turn 3
Again, just printing more safety valves is a good idea period
A creature version of Ghost Quarter would be pretty cool, but I'd change the name since I guess I'm not into naked goblins.
Blood Moon is really not that great against Tron, especially now that the common version is mono-green with 4-5 Forests. The deck gets Thragtusk post-board and will still just find a land almost every turn and can easily cast their spells the fair way. Oblivion Stone clears it on turn 5 as well. Moon plus a fast clock is good, yeah, or with other forms of disruption accompanying it, but on its own it's really not that scary for Tron.
Fulminator Mage is much scarier out of the side, as is Stony Silence.
Here's another way to deal with Tron: don't care about Tron. What I mean by that is don't focus so much on trying to stop them from assembling the lands, and instead focus on stopping the threats they try to present. A good chunk of their deck is devoted to assembling Tron, and the actual amount of threats is small. In my experience, I've had way more success countering their first threat and applying pressure than trying to stop Tron from being assembled.
Karn, Ugin, and Wurmcoil Engine can be countered easily. World breaker and Ulamog hurt because of the cast triggers, but they both still fall to counter magic and creature destruction. Examples of cheap counters that people seem to forget about: Familiar's Ruse Spell Pierce Countersquall Dash Hopes
Now that last one isn't great unless you've got a serious clock to back it up, but it is a bit criminally underused imo. Tron is not unbeatable, not even close, there are multiple ways to beat it. You just have to find the method that fits your playstyle. For me, it's Faeries, which has its own advantages and disadvantages.
I wish there was a way to keep Tron in check that wasn't Blood Moon. The card's power to end games instantly with no way to play around it a lot of the time is absurd.
No solution here, I just detest games with no interaction and early game lockouts on decks which aren't linear, just for playing non-basics. I would love for it to get banned, but then I'd just complain about how OP Tron was.
Like sicsmoo said, Moon isn't even that good against Tron. It has plenty of basics to grab, Spheres to filter into colored mana, and can naturally drop stuff like OStone to get ahead. Moon plus a clock is definitely strong, but many controlling decks don't have that capability.
As for Moon and Tron itself, there is nothing problematic about these cards. Moon barely sees play and Tron is just one of many strong top-tier Modern decks. If you're losing to Moon, learn to recognize Moon decks and fetch appropriately. I saw some absolutely atrocious autopiloted fetching at the recent SCG Opens and GP where a control player blindly grabbed shocks against decks that are known to play Moon. For instance, not playing around Moon against G2/G3 Grishoalbrand is just unacceptable. Same goes for Storm, Affinity, and Mardu. This is a prime example of some players not knowing metagames and decks, and as a result, losing to something that more experienced Moderners should know.
I'm not saying this is necessarily your experience. Maybe you live in an area with lots of zany Moon decks and you can't recognize them, leading to lots of losses that you couldn't identify beforehand. If so, that's a *****ty experience and scene to play in and I wish your meta was different, but it's so non-representative of the broader Modern world that it's not something for Wizards to fix. In my own experience, the vast majority of Moon complainers are like the vocal pros on Twitch. They stream to an audience, get distracted and on autopilot, fetch or play lands in a risky way, get wrecked by Moon, and then go full salt about it to their loyal viewers. Never mind that it was Affinity G2 and they are playing a control deck with 3 basics and should've known Moon was coming around the corner. Never mind that they autopiloted their fetchland cracks for EOT and weren't even using their mana to cast spells. It's all "Moon broken, typical Modern, linear goldfish gg." This kind of anti-Moon stance is ridiculous and it's one we should push back against.
As with previous issues, I urge anyone who has a Modern complaint to examine the period from July 2017 through February 2018. If your complaint was present during that period, then your complaint is part of the healthy and diverse vision of Modern and is probably not going to be addressed any time soon.
It isn't like Blood Moon is pushing heavy non-basic decks out of the format. Or 4/5 color decks even. In fact, we see plenty of examples of each at the top tables.
Look at legacy. It has, in addition to Blood Moon: Back to Basics, Price of Progress, and Wasteland. And the top deck in the format often plays 0 basic lands! (of course that may be owing more to the strength of Deathrite Shaman than anything)
It just goes to show that these type of built in safety valves, in this case for nonbasic lands, are most certainly not format warping to any noticeable degree
When it comes to the state of Modern I do see though is that there is no universal, permanent answer in the card pool that is surgically aimed at sollands and tronlands. Something akin to "Artifact for 2 mana. Lands that add more than 1 mana to your mana pool, instead add 1 mana each turn". Simple, possible to cram into any sideboard, can be interacted with, fast enough to play it before T3 and not just a point land removal. Since we are okay with cards like Leylines, Rest in Peace, Cages, Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Stony silence in the format, my proposition seem to be reasonable.
Absolutely agree. There is no harm in printing effects like these, and they would be surely welcome. Let's hope Play Design is working closely with designers and developers to do just that.
When it comes to the state of Modern I do see though is that there is no universal, permanent answer in the card pool that is surgically aimed at sollands and tronlands. Something akin to "Artifact for 2 mana. Lands that add more than 1 mana to your mana pool, instead add 1 mana each turn". Simple, possible to cram into any sideboard, can be interacted with, fast enough to play it before T3 and not just a point land removal. Since we are okay with cards like Leylines, Rest in Peace, Cages, Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Stony silence in the format, my proposition seem to be reasonable.
Absolutely agree. There is no harm in printing effects like these, and they would be surely welcome. Let's hope Play Design is working closely with designers and developers to do just that.
I would have no problem with a card like that either, but the question is would it actually see play and the answer is probably not. You have to devote a sideboard slot (probably 2-3) in order to have a card that only tags Tron and Eldrazi in top decks. Even when you get them it doesn't shut them down completely. Eldrazi is slowed down by a turn while tron is a lot more stymied, but also has Oblivion Stone in the main which is why it doesn't care all that much about blood moon unless you have a fast clock.
I was never stating that my perception of "fun" or one that my playgroup lives with is "better". They come though with different price tags. I gave an example of "fun" game definition, that in my opinion is reasonable and encompassing. I guess it fosters what is the best to be achieved in a game, which after all is played by You AND your opponent.
Sure, someone may find lopsided, very fast or lockdown scoops personally "fun" (how fast and how large living end trick can I pull today - yes I understand this kind of "fun" on a personal level!) but remember that in this comes with a price that at the end of the day, may be paid by TOs (and fun achievers after all when attendance drops and tournaments are replaced with other events) which may be especially visible in small, emerging or reemerging mtg communities - this is the essence that I was trying to convey.
Treat it as a signal from a local TO of a possible problem that won't be visible in MTGO, GPs, PTs etc. That even though Big Picture gathered from MTGO and high profile tournaments shows that Modern is generally fine (which for me, personally is more or less true - it requires some fine tuning though), there are problems with certain game styles that may influence new markets, or reappearing markets. Modern is their product number 1 after all, unintended and unfortunate, but this is the fact.
When it comes to the state of Modern I do see though is that there is no universal, permanent answer in the card pool that is surgically aimed at sollands and tronlands. Something akin to "Artifact for 2 mana. Lands that add more than 1 mana to your mana pool, instead add 1 mana each turn". Simple, possible to cram into any sideboard, can be interacted with, fast enough to play it before T3 and not just a point land removal. Since we are okay with cards like Leylines, Rest in Peace, Cages, Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Stony silence in the format, my proposition seem to be reasonable.
@Wraithpk
They at least once asked WPN members about problems that we, as a LGS encounter, though the whole survey was with closed questions (answered with scales 1-8) focused on financial aspects and it was rather aimed at american market. It is then possible for them to gather data on problems tied with local playgroups, at least those gathered around WPN stores. As I stated before, this data will be highly incomplete, skewed, sometimes personally biased and should be treated with a grain of salt, as actually all the data they gather - but it is possible to at least get a glimpse of what a few hundered store owners / TOs have to say about certain formats. I guess they should also consult judges on various topics, not the high level ones, but especially in-store judges that deal with day to day in-store mtg.
To all of You that answered me - thank you! I expected much more flak but it went quite well. Some of You missed the point, I do know how to play against tron, I have the cards, I know strategies and I recognize that big mana decks in the format. I just offered You a different perspective on the topic, some sort of context that most of You probably don't have to deal with daily.
My analysis on you posts is that you don't like Prison, Combo, or Tron decks, and shift personal bias to "I'm a TO/ store owner and this can have effects on you LGS." I think this is just an unreasonable and illogical jump.
Its a battle of perspectives. It seems to me you enjoy the Midrange vs Midrange vs Control vs Aggro style decks in Magic. You like long drawn out games.
However, there is many facets to Magic. Some people see Jund or Jeskai boring when it comes to deck building, and enjoy decks with crazy lines and synergies. That's the greatness of the Game and something you need to realize when it comes to Eternal Formats like Modern.
I've posted this before about calling for bannings and being generally disgruntled about the format:
Brian Kibler says it so perfectly (super relevant in the Lantern discussion as well):
"This is the problem with eternal formats. New interactions are going to keep coming up, new powerful things are going to keep hapening If you're response is 'we're going to get rid of that one', then you are going to lose the point of having an eternal format. In Modern, people can't play the decks they've put together that they like and they want to play, which is really a lot of the appeal of the format to a lot of people."
I'm not trying to be mean when I say this, but If you don't like Modern, then play a different format. The state of the format is in a great place. If you were disgruntled about the format years ago, then I'd be more receptive on the criticism. But I think shifting personal dislike for certain cards/decks to generalities is very disingenuous
When it comes to the state of Modern I do see though is that there is no universal, permanent answer in the card pool that is surgically aimed at sollands and tronlands. Something akin to "Artifact for 2 mana. Lands that add more than 1 mana to your mana pool, instead add 1 mana each turn". Simple, possible to cram into any sideboard, can be interacted with, fast enough to play it before T3 and not just a point land removal. Since we are okay with cards like Leylines, Rest in Peace, Cages, Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Stony silence in the format, my proposition seem to be reasonable.
Absolutely agree. There is no harm in printing effects like these, and they would be surely welcome. Let's hope Play Design is working closely with designers and developers to do just that.
I would have no problem with a card like that either, but the question is would it actually see play and the answer is probably not. You have to devote a sideboard slot (probably 2-3) in order to have a card that only tags Tron and Eldrazi in top decks. Even when you get them it doesn't shut them down completely. Eldrazi is slowed down by a turn while tron is a lot more stymied, but also has Oblivion Stone in the main which is why it doesn't care all that much about blood moon unless you have a fast clock.
I think for something like this to see play it would have to affect all Mana sources not just lands, which would border on overpowered for 2 cmc. This way it would be relevant against rituals, elves, etc. There could be a standard format that doesn't care much about this effect, but then why would it be printed in the first place?
When it comes to the state of Modern I do see though is that there is no universal, permanent answer in the card pool that is surgically aimed at sollands and tronlands. Something akin to "Artifact for 2 mana. Lands that add more than 1 mana to your mana pool, instead add 1 mana each turn". Simple, possible to cram into any sideboard, can be interacted with, fast enough to play it before T3 and not just a point land removal. Since we are okay with cards like Leylines, Rest in Peace, Cages, Blood Moon, Blood Sun, Stony silence in the format, my proposition seem to be reasonable.
Absolutely agree. There is no harm in printing effects like these, and they would be surely welcome. Let's hope Play Design is working closely with designers and developers to do just that.
I would have no problem with a card like that either, but the question is would it actually see play and the answer is probably not. You have to devote a sideboard slot (probably 2-3) in order to have a card that only tags Tron and Eldrazi in top decks. Even when you get them it doesn't shut them down completely. Eldrazi is slowed down by a turn while tron is a lot more stymied, but also has Oblivion Stone in the main which is why it doesn't care all that much about blood moon unless you have a fast clock.
An effect like that would hit Eldrazi, Tron, Karoo Lands (Amulet decks), and potentially even Utopia Sprawl depending on how it's worded. The card would only really be necessary in Midrange and Control decks - the ones that have trouble against "big mana" strategies - and they'd probably find slots if they wanted very badly to have game against big mana. It would certainly see local sideboard play when you know your LGS is in its big mana cycle.
Here's another way to deal with Tron: don't care about Tron. What I mean by that is don't focus so much on trying to stop them from assembling the lands, and instead focus on stopping the threats they try to present. A good chunk of their deck is devoted to assembling Tron, and the actual amount of threats is small. In my experience, I've had way more success countering their first threat and applying pressure than trying to stop Tron from being assembled.
Karn, Ugin, and Wurmcoil Engine can be countered easily. World breaker and Ulamog hurt because of the cast triggers, but they both still fall to counter magic and creature destruction. Examples of cheap counters that people seem to forget about: Familiar's Ruse Spell Pierce Countersquall Dash Hopes
Now that last one isn't great unless you've got a serious clock to back it up, but it is a bit criminally underused imo. Tron is not unbeatable, not even close, there are multiple ways to beat it. You just have to find the method that fits your playstyle. For me, it's Faeries, which has its own advantages and disadvantages.
EDIT
Had the wrong name for Dash Hopes, fixed it.
Excellent post! I agree. Lands are hard to interact with? ....my personal Tron build has enough LD to flatten a plane, but sure, let's go with that. if I am fortunate enough to get t3 Tron into Karn, and you Mana Leak him, with Countersquall in hand for my next turn, all you need to do is present a clock and I am not going to win. I can play around a lot of stuff, but counters used correctly are backbreaking.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Here's another way to deal with Tron: don't care about Tron. What I mean by that is don't focus so much on trying to stop them from assembling the lands, and instead focus on stopping the threats they try to present. A good chunk of their deck is devoted to assembling Tron, and the actual amount of threats is small. In my experience, I've had way more success countering their first threat and applying pressure than trying to stop Tron from being assembled.
Karn, Ugin, and Wurmcoil Engine can be countered easily. World breaker and Ulamog hurt because of the cast triggers, but they both still fall to counter magic and creature destruction. Examples of cheap counters that people seem to forget about: Familiar's Ruse Spell Pierce Countersquall Dash Hopes
Now that last one isn't great unless you've got a serious clock to back it up, but it is a bit criminally underused imo. Tron is not unbeatable, not even close, there are multiple ways to beat it. You just have to find the method that fits your playstyle. For me, it's Faeries, which has its own advantages and disadvantages.
EDIT
Had the wrong name for Dash Hopes, fixed it.
Excellent post! I agree. Lands are hard to interact with? ....my personal Tron build has enough LD to flatten a plane, but sure, let's go with that. if I am fortunate enough to get t3 Tron into Karn, and you Mana Leak him, with Countersquall in hand for my next turn, all you need to do is present a clock and I am not going to win. I can play around a lot of stuff, but counters used correctly are backbreaking.
And then Tron plays Worldbreaker or Ulamog, exiling key pieces on cast, because why be able to interact?
I played that exact line the other night and was destroyed, despite countering multiple threats with a resolved Jace on the board. On-Cast triggers are pretty awful.
They mean big data as in the big picture versus a local scene. It's not good usage, but MTG users in particular are not good at saying things correctly. (Saying blue to mean draw/go control, using linear with no definition at all, etc)
What would be your solution to this 'problem'?
If you do not have the crowd to play the meta, then yes, certain people will win more often than others.
Spirits
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I do think that there are some other options, as they've already started exploring. For example, working to provide competitive decks for other players who may not be able to afford them themselves. As another person mentioned, they could also start running Pauper events, where those with less funds might stand a better chance.
But I agree that it would be counter-productive to prohibit these "spikes" from bringing their A-game. There are steps that the individual players that are having a difficult time can do as well. Someone else pointed out that it's not beyond the realm of possibilities to make a straight-up land destruction deck against this metagame. Or, maindecking hate cards. If the community suffers to the degree that attendance is dwindling, then it's much easier to predict the metagame to support the idea of maindecking hate cards.
I'm sure that there are other options, like contacting Wizards and letting them know that maybe the secondary market does need a bit more help, at a slightly quicker pace. They've already begun the process of reprinting cards to possibly relieve that pressure, but maybe their main distributors need to make their voices heard. Running a profit on a cheaper secondary market is much better than just going out of business, and it's these people that need to let their voices be heard as well. This would at least put everyone on a level playing field.
But I think we can at least have some sympathy for these people. Having been a person who was tight on funds and getting beat down for years before my current career, and being good friends with a good number of store owners now, I can understand their situation.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Unlike Ghost Quarter, it doesn't set your land drop back a turn. And unlike Field of Ruin, you can activate it starting turn 2 before they can set up Tron on turn 3
Again, just printing more safety valves is a good idea period
thanks for sharing your opinion
your views about tron, and the format in general, arent being dismissed. people are just pointing out that your perspective, born from your experiences, isnt universally shared.
everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what they consider fun and what direction the modern format should go. yours is no more or less relevant than someone elses.
you say that the data collected about the format is incomplete, which very well may be true. however with no way to verify this it becomes just speculation.
the best we can do is use the information we have at hand and draw conclusions based on a set of established assumptions. tron isnt being overly played in competitive environments, nor is it winning more than other decks. tron has existed since the inception of modern, and the modern format is currently more popular than it has ever been.
given no indicators suggesting tron is a problem deck, is it really reasonable to take action because you personally find it unfun?
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Not everyone wants to play Standard, and the price of admission to Modern, is that some of those 'bad feels' exist, to the extent of forming decks.
I hate Tron. I LOATHE anything Eldrazi. I have a solid dislike for Death and Taxes and even Ponza can be tilting.
That said, if those decks have cyclical counters in the meta game, thats not on me to decide its 'not good Magic'. Modern marches on.
Spirits
I get what you're saying, but there's just no way for WotC to do anything about that. They have to make their decisions based on the big picture. They can't analyze the meta at each individual LGS, that's just not feasible. The LGS metas need to be self regulating. If your store meta was seeing a bunch of spikes playing Tron, then maybe people should have played Burn until they stopped showing up with Tron all the time. I don't like Tron either, but WotC can't ban it just because your personal meta had an over-representation of the deck.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
A creature version of Ghost Quarter would be pretty cool, but I'd change the name since I guess I'm not into naked goblins.
Fulminator Mage is much scarier out of the side, as is Stony Silence.
Karn, Ugin, and Wurmcoil Engine can be countered easily. World breaker and Ulamog hurt because of the cast triggers, but they both still fall to counter magic and creature destruction. Examples of cheap counters that people seem to forget about:
Familiar's Ruse
Spell Pierce
Countersquall
Dash Hopes
Now that last one isn't great unless you've got a serious clock to back it up, but it is a bit criminally underused imo. Tron is not unbeatable, not even close, there are multiple ways to beat it. You just have to find the method that fits your playstyle. For me, it's Faeries, which has its own advantages and disadvantages.
EDIT
Had the wrong name for Dash Hopes, fixed it.
Like sicsmoo said, Moon isn't even that good against Tron. It has plenty of basics to grab, Spheres to filter into colored mana, and can naturally drop stuff like OStone to get ahead. Moon plus a clock is definitely strong, but many controlling decks don't have that capability.
As for Moon and Tron itself, there is nothing problematic about these cards. Moon barely sees play and Tron is just one of many strong top-tier Modern decks. If you're losing to Moon, learn to recognize Moon decks and fetch appropriately. I saw some absolutely atrocious autopiloted fetching at the recent SCG Opens and GP where a control player blindly grabbed shocks against decks that are known to play Moon. For instance, not playing around Moon against G2/G3 Grishoalbrand is just unacceptable. Same goes for Storm, Affinity, and Mardu. This is a prime example of some players not knowing metagames and decks, and as a result, losing to something that more experienced Moderners should know.
I'm not saying this is necessarily your experience. Maybe you live in an area with lots of zany Moon decks and you can't recognize them, leading to lots of losses that you couldn't identify beforehand. If so, that's a *****ty experience and scene to play in and I wish your meta was different, but it's so non-representative of the broader Modern world that it's not something for Wizards to fix. In my own experience, the vast majority of Moon complainers are like the vocal pros on Twitch. They stream to an audience, get distracted and on autopilot, fetch or play lands in a risky way, get wrecked by Moon, and then go full salt about it to their loyal viewers. Never mind that it was Affinity G2 and they are playing a control deck with 3 basics and should've known Moon was coming around the corner. Never mind that they autopiloted their fetchland cracks for EOT and weren't even using their mana to cast spells. It's all "Moon broken, typical Modern, linear goldfish gg." This kind of anti-Moon stance is ridiculous and it's one we should push back against.
As with previous issues, I urge anyone who has a Modern complaint to examine the period from July 2017 through February 2018. If your complaint was present during that period, then your complaint is part of the healthy and diverse vision of Modern and is probably not going to be addressed any time soon.
I'd like to see Dwarven Miner reprinted, that be cool
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Look at legacy. It has, in addition to Blood Moon: Back to Basics, Price of Progress, and Wasteland. And the top deck in the format often plays 0 basic lands! (of course that may be owing more to the strength of Deathrite Shaman than anything)
It just goes to show that these type of built in safety valves, in this case for nonbasic lands, are most certainly not format warping to any noticeable degree
Absolutely agree. There is no harm in printing effects like these, and they would be surely welcome. Let's hope Play Design is working closely with designers and developers to do just that.
I would have no problem with a card like that either, but the question is would it actually see play and the answer is probably not. You have to devote a sideboard slot (probably 2-3) in order to have a card that only tags Tron and Eldrazi in top decks. Even when you get them it doesn't shut them down completely. Eldrazi is slowed down by a turn while tron is a lot more stymied, but also has Oblivion Stone in the main which is why it doesn't care all that much about blood moon unless you have a fast clock.
My analysis on you posts is that you don't like Prison, Combo, or Tron decks, and shift personal bias to "I'm a TO/ store owner and this can have effects on you LGS." I think this is just an unreasonable and illogical jump.
Its a battle of perspectives. It seems to me you enjoy the Midrange vs Midrange vs Control vs Aggro style decks in Magic. You like long drawn out games.
However, there is many facets to Magic. Some people see Jund or Jeskai boring when it comes to deck building, and enjoy decks with crazy lines and synergies. That's the greatness of the Game and something you need to realize when it comes to Eternal Formats like Modern.
I've posted this before about calling for bannings and being generally disgruntled about the format:
Brian Kibler says it so perfectly (super relevant in the Lantern discussion as well):
7:13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CMY2KH_SlU&t=492s
I'm not trying to be mean when I say this, but If you don't like Modern, then play a different format. The state of the format is in a great place. If you were disgruntled about the format years ago, then I'd be more receptive on the criticism. But I think shifting personal dislike for certain cards/decks to generalities is very disingenuous
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I think for something like this to see play it would have to affect all Mana sources not just lands, which would border on overpowered for 2 cmc. This way it would be relevant against rituals, elves, etc. There could be a standard format that doesn't care much about this effect, but then why would it be printed in the first place?
EDIT: would probably hit Nykthos too.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Excellent post! I agree. Lands are hard to interact with? ....my personal Tron build has enough LD to flatten a plane, but sure, let's go with that. if I am fortunate enough to get t3 Tron into Karn, and you Mana Leak him, with Countersquall in hand for my next turn, all you need to do is present a clock and I am not going to win. I can play around a lot of stuff, but counters used correctly are backbreaking.
And then Tron plays Worldbreaker or Ulamog, exiling key pieces on cast, because why be able to interact?
I played that exact line the other night and was destroyed, despite countering multiple threats with a resolved Jace on the board. On-Cast triggers are pretty awful.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate