its nice to see that the unbans of bbe and jace are encouraging more people to discuss more unbans. i remember lurking and seeing people just lose it over the idea of sfm and gsz being unbanned. i have a feeling that gsz and sfm would be perfectly acceptable in the format. sfm and gsz potentiality open up more midrange options in the format while having little risk. no one is losing to gsz or sfm pre turn 4 and they promote interactive magic. the common counter argument is that they limit design space which is true but i would say is greatly over exaggerated. wotc simply hasn't been printing good equipment with sfm banned and i doubt they are ever gonna top batterskull. The green creatures they have been printing are just midrange value or beaters. if you want to do a creature combo strategy chord is likely just better as it gets all creatures and is an instant. the limits design space argument is also just used inconsistently as there are many cards legal in the format that tutor or work well with a specific card type that theoretically should fall under the same scrutiny. i could also see punishing fire and preordain unbanned but i think they have a little more baggage than gsz or sfm. punishing fire and preordain "feel" like they would be ok on power level but the have some questionable play patterns. punishing fire can lock out certain strategies and if there are enough good blue cantrips in a format you run the risk of enabling a blue cantrip consistency engine similar to what we see in legacy, but there are already some very questionable and similar play patterns already in the format so idk. in my opinion modern is the best its been since eldrazi winter and i believe a large part of it is due to recent unbans. if i were running the show i would wait a few more months and release sfm and gsz into the wild but i guess we will see
It is nice to see this. I have to admit that although I wouldn't lose my ***** over most unbans, I did not feel that Stoneforge Mystic being unbanned was a good option in the past. Nowadays with Midrange neutered a bit, I think it would be a nice addition to hopefully get Midrange closer to where it used to be.
I do remember telling people here that if Stoneforge Mystic was unbanned at that time, I'd run it in Bloom Titan just to PROVE how good a card it is. lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
its nice to see that the unbans of bbe and jace are encouraging more people to discuss more unbans. i remember lurking and seeing people just lose it over the idea of sfm and gsz being unbanned. i have a feeling that gsz and sfm would be perfectly acceptable in the format. sfm and gsz potentiality open up more midrange options in the format while having little risk. no one is losing to gsz or sfm pre turn 4 and they promote interactive magic. the common counter argument is that they limit design space which is true but i would say is greatly over exaggerated. wotc simply hasn't been printing good equipment with sfm banned and i doubt they are ever gonna top batterskull. The green creatures they have been printing are just midrange value or beaters. if you want to do a creature combo strategy chord is likely just better as it gets all creatures and is an instant. the limits design space argument is also just used inconsistently as there are many cards legal in the format that tutor or work well with a specific card type that theoretically should fall under the same scrutiny. i could also see punishing fire and preordain unbanned but i think they have a little more baggage than gsz or sfm. punishing fire and preordain "feel" like they would be ok on power level but the have some questionable play patterns. punishing fire can lock out certain strategies and if there are enough good blue cantrips in a format you run the risk of enabling a blue cantrip consistency engine similar to what we see in legacy, but there are already some very questionable and similar play patterns already in the format so idk. in my opinion modern is the best its been since eldrazi winter and i believe a large part of it is due to recent unbans. if i were running the show i would wait a few more months and release sfm and gsz into the wild but i guess we will see
yeah the format is alright at the moment.
as for unbans i would expect them to happen (if ever) after a lot longer than a few months. probably around a year, and definitely not before another modern pro tour.
your statement has me curious. what exactly did you not like about the format, and how did the unbans fix it?
i ask because the way i see things the unbans have had zero effect on the quality or health of the format
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
your statement has me curious. what exactly did you not like about the format, and how did the unbans fix it?
i ask because the way i see things the unbans have had zero effect on the quality or health of the format
I know that this was not directed at me, but the unbans have freed up cards that don't need to be banned. It's that simple. Sword of the Meek did not need to be banned at the beginning of Modern. These cards did not need to be on the *scary* ban list, sitting next to Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise. They didn't fix something per se, but the ban list itself is fixed if cards that don't need to be on it are no longer ON it.
I feel that some of the variance in Modern has been lowered, if only slightly. That is a good thing! You would think that Bloodbraid Elf would make more variance if played, but the overall effect on the meta has been less variance in my opinion. Like goblinundertaker said, it opens up discussion on other consistency tools like Green Sun's Zenith, Stoneforge Mystic, and Preordain. I feel that Modern would be even better with more consistency tools. We are not approaching a Turbo Xerox deck; we are not even close. Some more consistency tools shouldn't push us too far in that direction. Remember, Brainstorm is not in Modern, and Git Probe and Ponder probably won't be let off the ban list any time soon, if ever.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
the unbans gave me a reason to brew and play decks that were terrible or non existent prior. granted this is almost certainly temporary. it was also looking like tron was the best deck prior to the unbans. not that i hate tron but if tron is the deck im gonna play against the most in a format i will just find something else to do with my time as most games against tron and decks similar to it are just kinda boring to me. i would much rather have jund be the best deck
i ask because the way i see things the unbans have had zero effect on the quality or health of the format
Pushing Jund back up, and giving a few % to blue, has 100% impacted the quality and health of the format though?
control was arguably doing better before the unbans. there has been no evidence that ive seen to suggest jace has improved percentages for decks other than scapeshift and knightfall.
also junds rise just came at the expense of other GBx decks.
the format is different, but that isnt synonymous with better. which was my point. can you honestly point to something that is markedly better about this format than the one we saw at the pro tour?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
My general thinking is the format has changed so much that I'm getting close to comfortable with just unbanning every fair card (except Jitte, punishing fire and Deathrite) and letting the chips fall. I think Wizards made some really questionable kneejerk decisions early on and it's time to walk that back. Sword/AV definitely proved it, Jace/BBE the jury's still out but the evidence is weighing on the side of it being fine.
I'd be fine with:
Dig
GSZ
Preordain
Stoneforge
The reason I still am against P-fire is I think it closes the door on too many fair creature decks, and Jitte/Deathrite I think are similarly positioned (Deathrite raises the bar for graveyard decks so high as to drive them out I think, and Jitte does the same smashing of creature matchups).
Still anti-Ponder because it's dangerously close to a 1 mana tutor; it's still better than Brainstorm in combo decks, which is a problem, and plenty good for control/midrange. It'd probably do more to homogenize the format than GSZ would since it's a nearly universal consistency engine that works for spell based combo and midrange/control.
i ask because the way i see things the unbans have had zero effect on the quality or health of the format
Pushing Jund back up, and giving a few % to blue, has 100% impacted the quality and health of the format though?
control was arguably doing better before the unbans. there has been no evidence that ive seen to suggest jace has improved percentages for decks other than scapeshift and knightfall.
also junds rise just came at the expense of other GBx decks.
the format is different, but that isnt synonymous with better. which was my point. can you honestly point to something that is markedly better about this format than the one we saw at the pro tour?
I'm ok with increases to Scapeshift, Knightfall, and Jund. I do belive Jund is doing better than what BGx was doing before, as a whole.
These are good things.
UW has also risen.
Essentially, the meta that was Eldrazi Tron, GTron, Storm, GDS, has died, and thats alllllllllllllllllllllll good to me.
the format is different, but that isnt synonymous with better. which was my point. can you honestly point to something that is markedly better about this format than the one we saw at the pro tour?
Well, Wizards unbanned a card for Midrange and a card for Control. That at least is an attempt to make things better for those archetypes. What the actual result of these unbannings is still remains to be seen. But it shows that WotC is at least identifying weak archetypes and trying to help them.
My general thinking is the format has changed so much that I'm getting close to comfortable with just unbanning every fair card (except Jitte, punishing fire and Deathrite) and letting the chips fall. I think Wizards made some really questionable kneejerk decisions early on and it's time to walk that back. Sword/AV definitely proved it, Jace/BBE the jury's still out but the evidence is weighing on the side of it being fine.
I'd be fine with: Dig
GSZ
Preordain
Stoneforge
The reason I still am against P-fire is I think it closes the door on too many fair creature decks, and Jitte/Deathrite I think are similarly positioned (Deathrite raises the bar for graveyard decks so high as to drive them out I think, and Jitte does the same smashing of creature matchups).
Still anti-Ponder because it's dangerously close to a 1 mana tutor; it's still better than Brainstorm in combo decks, which is a problem, and plenty good for control/midrange. It'd probably do more to homogenize the format than GSZ would since it's a nearly universal consistency engine that works for spell based combo and midrange/control.
I am all with you on 3 of those, but I think that Dig Through Time is still risky. I believe that it would push Control to a solid Tier 1 and a lot of people don't want to see that. I don't think that any of those other unbans would push Control as much as Dig would.
That being said, Dig could be a possibility later on. The problems I envision arising are Control players that take too long, also taking long on Digs, and making the tournament scene go to time in certain rounds more often than now. I don't know if it have too bad an effect, but I know it would have some effect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Well I think WOTC should be looking at helping out White First (needs help everywhere can start with some removal and two drop slots), Blue Second(better cantrips) thus helping these two should boost control ....Green and Black seem strong and fine. And Red? I am curious to see how the massive errata changes on what targets what impacts Red before looking at anything about this color.
That said I still think Controls main problem is too many decks you have to worry about in the format. I mean sheesh even if you just pick top 3-5 deck primers in each section of the Modern Section. You can see how much of challenge that poses to Control without an easy way to break parity and get unfair ala Miracles.
I'm ok with increases to Scapeshift, Knightfall, and Jund. I do belive Jund is doing better than what BGx was doing before, as a whole.
These are good things.
UW has also risen.
Essentially, the meta that was Eldrazi Tron, GTron, Storm, GDS, has died, and thats alllllllllllllllllllllll good to me.
the thing is that big jeskai was doing great, and UW was on a sharp upswing because of the mana denial and gideon package. i dont see jace playing any influential role.
humans and hollow one were going to blow up regardless of the unbans. GDS was going to drop even without jace and BBE.
diversity isnt particularly better, just some of the deck names were switched around.
mind you im not saying its worse, and wotcs experiment can be considered a success because it shows the format can handle it. im just questioning the idea that there was some systemic issue and the unbans solved it. weve already talked about how jace hasnt really served his intended purpose, because it isnt what blue decks needed.
as for the notion that the ban list needs to be fixed, well i wont comment on that. i personally dont take issue with cards staying on it, nor am i particularly against them coming off.
like if someone just outright said that they didnt like jund not being the best performing midrange deck. that is something i can understand, even if i dont share the view. but when someone says the format is great because of the unbans, id like to know what they are talking about - because it implies that the format was not great to begin with.
Sure, the deck is absolutely doing just fine along with a bunch of other top decks. But it is not at all fitting the pedigree of a clear best deck. Something, or multiple somethings, is holding it back.
Any time Seth Manfield takes a deck to a GP, you have to take stock of the deck. Owen Turtenwald made an article about "loving Jund," yet brought Tron to the GP Phoenix. Meta choice? Joe Lossett has raved about the deck for years. You have to firstly think about why these players played this deck. Is it to prove that they can win with something terrible? Most certainly not. They are not those types of players; most Pros are not those types of players. They are Spikes.
Jon Stern got a Top 4 with Burn, beating our favorite mtgs guy - finalnub on Grishoalbrand in the top 4, but losing in the finals to Bogles. HE brought Tron to the GP Phoenix. You have to wonder.
It's just like when Steve Rubin brought a 61 card Hollow One to a GP. I bought the deck at that time. I paid $0.35 for Goblin Lores. I'm glad I didn't wait. I wondered why a Jund Master is running Hollow One.
I watch BBD more than other pros to get a sense what is a "best" deck, and he still prefers Lantern. He has a track record of playing decks that get banned because they are the "best" deck in their format. Incidentally, I still think Lantern is the actual best deck in Modern, at least as defined by being the deck with the best matchup spectrum of 50/50+ and close to 50/50 matchups. In Lantern's case, I think the issues holding it back are play experience, which many dislike as pilots, its learning curve, and its comparative lack of free wins to other decks.
To be clear, I do think Tron is a good deck, and I do think this is a good metagame for Tron. I just don't think it's quite as good as some people claim. It's just another good deck in Modern along with a bunch of other good decks at the top.
The Ghost Daddy himself has chosen some good decks, I will admit. I did think that Lantern was way up there and I do still think that it is in the top 3. It would be interesting to see more players run it at a GP. But your opponent taking a long time is probably one of the top considerations for not doing so.
That reminded me of a matchup I didn't put for Tron. Lantern is nearly a Bye. It's one of the easiest matchups that Tron has in Modern. I agree with you that many people overestimate where Tron's at. I do not think Tron has ever been close to having a ban consideration, outside of many just HATING the deck. But I truly believe that the deck is better now than when they ran Eye of Ugin. I guess part of that is that when I ran Bloom Titan, I literally slaughtered Tron (and Burn too). I loooooved those matchups.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Also Jund's rise just came at the expense of other GBx decks.
I often see people touting this narrative and it always baffles me.
After Blooming Marsh and Fatal Push were printed nobody seemed to care that Abzan subverted Jund for awhile. However, whenever the opposite is true and Jund is the better GBx option people seem to magically care about "the other GBx" decks. In all honestly those who own the GBx staples can easily switch between whatever variant is favoured at that time. I'm sure there are factions that prefer one or the other, but they are the minority, and it's still rather irrelevant so long as some variation of GBx is playable.
Also Jund's rise just came at the expense of other GBx decks.
I often see people touting this narrative and it always baffles me.
After Blooming Marsh and Fatal Push were printed nobody seemed to care that Abzan subverted Jund for awhile. However, whenever the opposite is true and Jund is the better GBx option people seem to magically care about "the other GBx" decks. In all honestly those who own the GBx staples can easily switch between whatever variant is favoured at that time. I'm sure there are factions that prefer one or the other, but they are the minority, and it's still rather irrelevant so long as some variation of GBx is playable.
its an observation. one you just corroborated by explaining how the phenomenon works.
it wasnt as if midrange was underperforming, the results were just distributed across multiple decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Still anti-Ponder because it's dangerously close to a 1 mana tutor; it's still better than Brainstorm in combo decks, which is a problem, and plenty good for control/midrange. It'd probably do more to homogenize the format than GSZ would since it's a nearly universal consistency engine that works for spell based combo and midrange/control.
i agree with ponder being the better cantrip. however i was browsing some pauper articles recently, and i dont play the format, but it seems to be running into the issue of blue decks being too good (and some boros monarch deck).
so naturally people start talking about potential bans. it was the oddest thing because between brainstorm, ponder, and preordain; everyone was pointing at preordain as the problem card. well that and Augur of Bolas.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Also, Joe Lossett said that Sanctum of Ugin is better than Eye of Ugin. I personally don't buy that, but when a player as high level as that says something, it shouldn't be dismissed completely.
Most of those things were out while Eye was legal so I don't consider them "Gains." Newlamog + Eye was well on its way to driving blue out of the format before the Twin ban (having basically shifted that matchup to nearly positive on its own).
Honestly I think RG tron right before the eye ban was probably quite a bit stronger than it is today. People forget the unending stream of threats it produced pretty easily, essentially removing any chance of you stealing games by fading one fatty.
The modern tron decks run out of gas all the time against control, and are forced to run more threats to compensate which makes them very awkward.
Tron has been my main deck in Modern for years now, and I don't think Lossett was really off-base in saying Sanctum is better than Eye in the deck. In most cases, the one extra threat that Sanctum provides you will be enough to close the game, and it comes without the significant detriment of not being able to tap it for mana. Eye was an amazing trump card in the control matchups in the past, yes, but now they play so much land destruction that it would rarely stick around long enough to take over the game. In any case, these types of pure control decks are such a small part of the meta right now that I don't think it matters much.
I also don't agree that the deck became awkward because it had to increase its threat density. This is a fear people had when Eye was banned but it never really came to fruition I think. It's still a very well-oiled machine from where I sit, and perhaps moreso than before because you aren't drawing dead Eyes and Emrakul, the Aeons Torns in your opener.
I agree that the deck was arguably at it's best ever while it had Newlamog and Eye, but I think that was more a product of the metagame at the time, and wouldn't be very likely to carry over to today's meta.
I've been testing Humans vs. Hollow One and Titanshift and it surprising how good the deck is against these decks.
Vs. Hollow One, it's clearly favored and can beat the turn 1 Hollow One, turn 2 Gurmag Angler on the play hands fairly easily, unless they draw too many lands or Vials.
Vs. Titanshift, the matchup is nearly 50/50 and if Humans is on the play, assuming Games 1 and 3, they have a 50/50 matchup. It's only slightly worse if they don't. (that's scary against a deck with a quick clock, Bolt, Anger, Slagstorm, and Roast)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
well i dont wanna nitpick on word usage. but i dont agree with the idea that modern is a format with a small set of decks that fight against eachother, with all other decks revolving around this conflict.
these decks would have to be so good that they set an unnaturally high standard for what other decks are allowed to compete at any given point in time, and each falling in and out of favor becomes the catalyst for metagame shifts. i dont believe that is how the modern format works, not now nor before the unbans.
the gap between what people might categorize as 'tier 1' and 'tier 2' in the abstract isnt that big, making even the good decks cycle in and out of favor if thats how the variables pan out.
for example you included burn in your trinity. burn has been performing rather poor lately, being pretty handily outclassed by decks like storm and hollow one. burn is still one of the best decks in the format, but if it can so easily slip in the rankings id hardly count it a part of a holy anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I've been testing Humans vs. Hollow One and Titanshift and it surprising how good the deck is against these decks.
Vs. Hollow One, it's clearly favored and can beat the turn 1 Hollow One, turn 2 Gurmag Angler on the play hands fairly easily, unless they draw too many lands or Vials.
Vs. Titanshift, the matchup is nearly 50/50 and if Humans is on the play, assuming Games 1 and 3, they have a 50/50 matchup. It's only slightly worse if they don't. (that's scary against a deck with a quick clock, Bolt, Anger, Slagstorm, and Roast)
well hollow one makes sense. but why would you be surprised about titanshift? half the deck is noncreature spells dedicated to the combo, which humans just laughs at. humans should be favored.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Still anti-Ponder because it's dangerously close to a 1 mana tutor; it's still better than Brainstorm in combo decks, which is a problem, and plenty good for control/midrange. It'd probably do more to homogenize the format than GSZ would since it's a nearly universal consistency engine that works for spell based combo and midrange/control.
i agree with ponder being the better cantrip. however i was browsing some pauper articles recently, and i dont play the format, but it seems to be running into the issue of blue decks being too good (and some boros monarch deck).
so naturally people start talking about potential bans. it was the oddest thing because between brainstorm, ponder, and preordain; everyone was pointing at preordain as the problem card. well that and Augur of Bolas.
Pauper doesn't have the fetchlands (well, not the good fetchlands anyway). As a result, Ponder and Brainstorm take a hit in power (especially Brainstorm) while Preordain doesn't lose any. So Preordain ends up the best of the cantrips.
well hollow one makes sense. but why would you be surprised about titanshift? half the deck is noncreature spells dedicated to the combo, which humans just laughs at. humans should be favored.
Titanshift eats Company decks for breakfast. Their chances to win go down if they don't just explode onto the field and pray that Titanshift doesn't have Bolt/Anger/Slagstorm/Roast.
It just seems that a deck with so much mass removal for smaller humans, single removal for larger humans, and instant speed interaction, while having a quick clock, Bloodbraid Elf as a speed bump, Valakut triggers, and 2 cards that JUST WIN THE GAME (Prime Time and Scapeshift), you'd expect it to be able to beat Humans better than it does. To me in the 30 matches that I did on Thursday, it felt only a little over 50/50 and much more die roll dependent than I had originally thought.
But in some ways, I compare it to Mono White Death and Taxes. There is a direct correlation between how many Red cards we see and how often we win. If we see 2-3 Red cards vs. D and T, we probably win. If we see none and they have 2 Leonin Arbiter and 3 Ghost Quarter, we probably lose. Do you know how bad Leonin Arbiter is if they Ghost Quarter us and we Lightning Bolt in response? It's not out of the question with 4 in the main board. But Humans can close much quicker than D and T, which is why I believe that they are nearly 50/50 vs. Titanshift.
This is true, but I feel that Bloom Titan AND Twin kept RG Tron from getting too much buzz at the time. Tron nowadays feels way stronger than it did in the meta than most other times in Modern. At least it does to me.
I believe Walking Ballista was a more important addition than given credit for.
Sorry, I was trying to get all of their new additions since the original (RG) Karn Tron. Ballista is also very important for stemming the tide of super quick Aggro decks (looking at you Mr. Affinity).
I know that Tron has improved because of this - when I previously ran Bogles vs. Tron, they stood a very little chance of winning. Nowadays, they're favored. (I HATE you Ugin, the Spirit Dragon!)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I do remember telling people here that if Stoneforge Mystic was unbanned at that time, I'd run it in Bloom Titan just to PROVE how good a card it is. lol.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)yeah the format is alright at the moment.
as for unbans i would expect them to happen (if ever) after a lot longer than a few months. probably around a year, and definitely not before another modern pro tour.
your statement has me curious. what exactly did you not like about the format, and how did the unbans fix it?
i ask because the way i see things the unbans have had zero effect on the quality or health of the format
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Pushing Jund back up, and giving a few % to blue, has 100% impacted the quality and health of the format though?
Spirits
I know that this was not directed at me, but the unbans have freed up cards that don't need to be banned. It's that simple. Sword of the Meek did not need to be banned at the beginning of Modern. These cards did not need to be on the *scary* ban list, sitting next to Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise. They didn't fix something per se, but the ban list itself is fixed if cards that don't need to be on it are no longer ON it.
I feel that some of the variance in Modern has been lowered, if only slightly. That is a good thing! You would think that Bloodbraid Elf would make more variance if played, but the overall effect on the meta has been less variance in my opinion. Like goblinundertaker said, it opens up discussion on other consistency tools like Green Sun's Zenith, Stoneforge Mystic, and Preordain. I feel that Modern would be even better with more consistency tools. We are not approaching a Turbo Xerox deck; we are not even close. Some more consistency tools shouldn't push us too far in that direction. Remember, Brainstorm is not in Modern, and Git Probe and Ponder probably won't be let off the ban list any time soon, if ever.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)control was arguably doing better before the unbans. there has been no evidence that ive seen to suggest jace has improved percentages for decks other than scapeshift and knightfall.
also junds rise just came at the expense of other GBx decks.
the format is different, but that isnt synonymous with better. which was my point. can you honestly point to something that is markedly better about this format than the one we saw at the pro tour?
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'd be fine with:
Dig
GSZ
Preordain
Stoneforge
The reason I still am against P-fire is I think it closes the door on too many fair creature decks, and Jitte/Deathrite I think are similarly positioned (Deathrite raises the bar for graveyard decks so high as to drive them out I think, and Jitte does the same smashing of creature matchups).
Still anti-Ponder because it's dangerously close to a 1 mana tutor; it's still better than Brainstorm in combo decks, which is a problem, and plenty good for control/midrange. It'd probably do more to homogenize the format than GSZ would since it's a nearly universal consistency engine that works for spell based combo and midrange/control.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm ok with increases to Scapeshift, Knightfall, and Jund. I do belive Jund is doing better than what BGx was doing before, as a whole.
These are good things.
UW has also risen.
Essentially, the meta that was Eldrazi Tron, GTron, Storm, GDS, has died, and thats alllllllllllllllllllllll good to me.
Spirits
Well, Wizards unbanned a card for Midrange and a card for Control. That at least is an attempt to make things better for those archetypes. What the actual result of these unbannings is still remains to be seen. But it shows that WotC is at least identifying weak archetypes and trying to help them.
I am all with you on 3 of those, but I think that Dig Through Time is still risky. I believe that it would push Control to a solid Tier 1 and a lot of people don't want to see that. I don't think that any of those other unbans would push Control as much as Dig would.
That being said, Dig could be a possibility later on. The problems I envision arising are Control players that take too long, also taking long on Digs, and making the tournament scene go to time in certain rounds more often than now. I don't know if it have too bad an effect, but I know it would have some effect.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That said I still think Controls main problem is too many decks you have to worry about in the format. I mean sheesh even if you just pick top 3-5 deck primers in each section of the Modern Section. You can see how much of challenge that poses to Control without an easy way to break parity and get unfair ala Miracles.
the thing is that big jeskai was doing great, and UW was on a sharp upswing because of the mana denial and gideon package. i dont see jace playing any influential role.
humans and hollow one were going to blow up regardless of the unbans. GDS was going to drop even without jace and BBE.
diversity isnt particularly better, just some of the deck names were switched around.
mind you im not saying its worse, and wotcs experiment can be considered a success because it shows the format can handle it. im just questioning the idea that there was some systemic issue and the unbans solved it. weve already talked about how jace hasnt really served his intended purpose, because it isnt what blue decks needed.
as for the notion that the ban list needs to be fixed, well i wont comment on that. i personally dont take issue with cards staying on it, nor am i particularly against them coming off.
like if someone just outright said that they didnt like jund not being the best performing midrange deck. that is something i can understand, even if i dont share the view. but when someone says the format is great because of the unbans, id like to know what they are talking about - because it implies that the format was not great to begin with.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It's doing fine. Its prevalence just isn't very high across all our major events. See my new favorite metagame sheet (has flaws, overall good):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSedG2Mt1SivUMZa1Wpuz9itycmn800iAwBNIF6xgwVfsc9RKI66uSbTKkB-wRr7tjv9lDkPpz3HKKA/pubhtml
Sure, the deck is absolutely doing just fine along with a bunch of other top decks. But it is not at all fitting the pedigree of a clear best deck. Something, or multiple somethings, is holding it back.
I watch BBD more than other pros to get a sense what is a "best" deck, and he still prefers Lantern. He has a track record of playing decks that get banned because they are the "best" deck in their format. Incidentally, I still think Lantern is the actual best deck in Modern, at least as defined by being the deck with the best matchup spectrum of 50/50+ and close to 50/50 matchups. In Lantern's case, I think the issues holding it back are play experience, which many dislike as pilots, its learning curve, and its comparative lack of free wins to other decks.
To be clear, I do think Tron is a good deck, and I do think this is a good metagame for Tron. I just don't think it's quite as good as some people claim. It's just another good deck in Modern along with a bunch of other good decks at the top.
That reminded me of a matchup I didn't put for Tron. Lantern is nearly a Bye. It's one of the easiest matchups that Tron has in Modern. I agree with you that many people overestimate where Tron's at. I do not think Tron has ever been close to having a ban consideration, outside of many just HATING the deck. But I truly believe that the deck is better now than when they ran Eye of Ugin. I guess part of that is that when I ran Bloom Titan, I literally slaughtered Tron (and Burn too). I loooooved those matchups.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I often see people touting this narrative and it always baffles me.
After Blooming Marsh and Fatal Push were printed nobody seemed to care that Abzan subverted Jund for awhile. However, whenever the opposite is true and Jund is the better GBx option people seem to magically care about "the other GBx" decks. In all honestly those who own the GBx staples can easily switch between whatever variant is favoured at that time. I'm sure there are factions that prefer one or the other, but they are the minority, and it's still rather irrelevant so long as some variation of GBx is playable.
its an observation. one you just corroborated by explaining how the phenomenon works.
it wasnt as if midrange was underperforming, the results were just distributed across multiple decks.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)i agree with ponder being the better cantrip. however i was browsing some pauper articles recently, and i dont play the format, but it seems to be running into the issue of blue decks being too good (and some boros monarch deck).
so naturally people start talking about potential bans. it was the oddest thing because between brainstorm, ponder, and preordain; everyone was pointing at preordain as the problem card. well that and Augur of Bolas.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Tron has been my main deck in Modern for years now, and I don't think Lossett was really off-base in saying Sanctum is better than Eye in the deck. In most cases, the one extra threat that Sanctum provides you will be enough to close the game, and it comes without the significant detriment of not being able to tap it for mana. Eye was an amazing trump card in the control matchups in the past, yes, but now they play so much land destruction that it would rarely stick around long enough to take over the game. In any case, these types of pure control decks are such a small part of the meta right now that I don't think it matters much.
I also don't agree that the deck became awkward because it had to increase its threat density. This is a fear people had when Eye was banned but it never really came to fruition I think. It's still a very well-oiled machine from where I sit, and perhaps moreso than before because you aren't drawing dead Eyes and Emrakul, the Aeons Torns in your opener.
I agree that the deck was arguably at it's best ever while it had Newlamog and Eye, but I think that was more a product of the metagame at the time, and wouldn't be very likely to carry over to today's meta.
its resiliency will be tested again with damping sphere. the same goes for storm.
if sphere is as impactful as some predict (im in the other camp atm). then it will probably do more to shake things up than the unbans.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)while your offer to take a trip to fantasy land is enticing, i think i prefer reality.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Vs. Hollow One, it's clearly favored and can beat the turn 1 Hollow One, turn 2 Gurmag Angler on the play hands fairly easily, unless they draw too many lands or Vials.
Vs. Titanshift, the matchup is nearly 50/50 and if Humans is on the play, assuming Games 1 and 3, they have a 50/50 matchup. It's only slightly worse if they don't. (that's scary against a deck with a quick clock, Bolt, Anger, Slagstorm, and Roast)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)these decks would have to be so good that they set an unnaturally high standard for what other decks are allowed to compete at any given point in time, and each falling in and out of favor becomes the catalyst for metagame shifts. i dont believe that is how the modern format works, not now nor before the unbans.
the gap between what people might categorize as 'tier 1' and 'tier 2' in the abstract isnt that big, making even the good decks cycle in and out of favor if thats how the variables pan out.
for example you included burn in your trinity. burn has been performing rather poor lately, being pretty handily outclassed by decks like storm and hollow one. burn is still one of the best decks in the format, but if it can so easily slip in the rankings id hardly count it a part of a holy anything.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)well hollow one makes sense. but why would you be surprised about titanshift? half the deck is noncreature spells dedicated to the combo, which humans just laughs at. humans should be favored.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Titanshift eats Company decks for breakfast. Their chances to win go down if they don't just explode onto the field and pray that Titanshift doesn't have Bolt/Anger/Slagstorm/Roast.
It just seems that a deck with so much mass removal for smaller humans, single removal for larger humans, and instant speed interaction, while having a quick clock, Bloodbraid Elf as a speed bump, Valakut triggers, and 2 cards that JUST WIN THE GAME (Prime Time and Scapeshift), you'd expect it to be able to beat Humans better than it does. To me in the 30 matches that I did on Thursday, it felt only a little over 50/50 and much more die roll dependent than I had originally thought.
But in some ways, I compare it to Mono White Death and Taxes. There is a direct correlation between how many Red cards we see and how often we win. If we see 2-3 Red cards vs. D and T, we probably win. If we see none and they have 2 Leonin Arbiter and 3 Ghost Quarter, we probably lose. Do you know how bad Leonin Arbiter is if they Ghost Quarter us and we Lightning Bolt in response? It's not out of the question with 4 in the main board. But Humans can close much quicker than D and T, which is why I believe that they are nearly 50/50 vs. Titanshift.
Sorry, I was trying to get all of their new additions since the original (RG) Karn Tron. Ballista is also very important for stemming the tide of super quick Aggro decks (looking at you Mr. Affinity).
I know that Tron has improved because of this - when I previously ran Bogles vs. Tron, they stood a very little chance of winning. Nowadays, they're favored. (I HATE you Ugin, the Spirit Dragon!)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)