Maybe it makes sense to rewind the conversation a bit. We still have only had a couple of months to review the unbans of BBE and Jace. Have things improved, worsened, or stayed the same to those on this forum?
yeah i guess it would be good not to get ahead of ourselves. we are discussing SFM unban like its a foregone conclusion, when in reality it would only come up close to a year from now if at all.
as for the format right now. well im not sure. i dont think i can say anything has improved; people might point out that diversity has looked great and so on. however the format was looking good before the unbans too.
blue decks are in no better position than they were before jace. jund is back to its old form, but its just supplanted BG, abzan, and the new kid on the block with mardu. all of which were doing fine.
ponza being much better isn't exactly an outcome that i'd label as a resounding success. its not like people were deeply yearning for a LD deck. so id chalk that one up to being neutral.
hollow one is exploding onto the scene, but that would have happened regardless of the unbans and humans is in the same position it was before.
yeah any way that i look at it, it just seems like business as usual. pointing towards the format being able to handle the adoption of powerful cards without flipping on its head; but not exactly evidence that such things actually improve the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I think blue based control was better before the unbans. BBE > Jace as of right now.
SCG Columbus had 2 Jeskai Control lists in the finals, the 2nd last major tourney before the unbans.
Ponza seems to be unfavorable for Jeskai. Not sure about the other U control decks tho.
Azban seems dead. Lingering Souls decks in general (Azban, Mardu) seems to be on the downswing, a card that was getting a lot more play towards the end to battle vs Grixis Death's Shadow.
i dont think much can be gained by comparing them side by side like that since they are completely different in their applications. its not some competition to see which one shows up more, and its not as if BBE is the reason jace isn't seeing more play.
imagine if only jace was unbanned. the way i see things nothing would be different.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
i dont think much can be gained by comparing them side by side like that since they are completely different in their applications. its not some competition to see which one shows up more, and its not as if BBE is the reason jace isn't seeing more play.
imagine if only Jace was unbanned. the way i see things nothing would be different.
I agree. However, Ponza is another deck U control needs to worry about, and from what I've seen, its a tough matchup (for Jeskai at least).
Eh I dunno. SFM sees play in legacy, which has all the stuff modern has plus some more craziness.
But hold on, that's not even fair contextually. Primarily, because that format has Umezawa's Jitte. Yet as for "how much" play it actually sees, take a look here. Stoneforge Mystic is in 23rd position for format staples overall. Being included in 11.27% of the metagame. Green Sun's Zenith is even dramatically lower with 40th place.
I'm not going to say it won't have an impact if unbanned, because it will, but it doesn't seem dramatically far-fetched in a world with Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
well legacy is slowly buckling under the weight of grixis delver, so im not entirely sure you can glean anything from that format at the moment.
SFM probably wouldnt see too much or too little play. its just a value card that would go into fair decks, most of which could care less if you can kill it because that means you are trading resource, which is what fair decks want to be doing. its not like people arent playing goyfs because it can be outsized on the early turns, or not playing dark confidant because it can be killed by gut shot.
im pretty ambivalent to the whole idea because frankly its a fair card against other fair decks. people arent wracking their brains looking for ways to fight on that axis. they are trying to find ways not to get blown out by a turn 3 karn, or any number of other silly things going on.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I mean, some decks losing hard to turn 3 karn is okay. Those players with those decks obviously will hate it, but look at what might be happening soon:
Storm is way down. It can still spike an event, but it's no longer a top dog because of an awful humans matchup plus burn. Eldrazi Tron is losing steam in favor of RG spaghetti builds which are slightly less explosive but feature BBE to abuse. Some decks that are tough for fair decks are dipping down. Unfair decks have a role to play, including ramp. As someone who isn't a fan of fair midrange and control grindfests...you have to have a few bad matchups lol.
I get it. The point to a fair deck is supposedly having a close matchup everywhere. My own LGS is full of these players who want the entire thing to end based on their own skill and choices (some taking it a bit too seriously sometimes). Tron, and to a lesser extent eldrazi and valakut, are the decks that keep those fair decks from being the only top choices, while also opening up the field to things like storm, affinity etc whenever they start to take up larger meta shares.
And to be entirely honest, one reason I prefer it this way is that those fair decks tend to be the most expensive ones. As much as I'd love for the state of modern and modern prices discussions to be entirely separated, I think the overlap between the two has to be acknowledged every so often. I'm building burn to compete while not eating up an entire month's rent.
I'm still not honestly sure what to think about Humans. It squeaks out games against jund and UWR way more often than you would think from looking at the cards, though I don't think it's positive against those decks, and it can beat basically anything. I'm enjoying playing it but I'm terrified to see how it goes against other tribal aggro decks.
My general thoughts are that any kind of tribal aggro deck is going to struggle to stay tier 1 for a long period of time, but I'm not sure it's such a bad thing either if it is.
Could you imagine having to explain any of the humans cards on the banlist? What would you even ban if it became a 25% deck like pod? I realize that it's a long way from that, but it's just comical to think of like Champion of the Parish or Aether Vial on a ban list.
As much as I enjoy URx vs BGx, I completely agree that they need bad match ups for the meta game to cycle.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think any metagame where bogles is regularly at the top of the format or that the 13 planeswalker Gideon deck is even playable to be a sign of a serious imbalance and I think grindy card advantage strategies are warping the format around them. Anecdotal for sure but I played BG midrange at a 1K on the weekend, saw Burn, Humans, Ponza and UR tempo in my Swiss, lots of Taxes and other stuff around the room, and the finals ended up being myself, 4 Jund decks (well 3, one was blue Jund that cut bobs for Jace), Ponza, UR Thing and Dredge just stomping everyone. It's anecdotal and not statistically significant but I think it's what we're going to see a lot of moving forward where the format is slow enough that we're gonna see bogles and hollow one vs planeswalkers at least until the meta corrects somehow.
Thalia's Lieutenant or Freebooter? I mean yeah it is comical but whatever. I don't think it needs anything.
There are no decks crushing it right now, though I'm almost tempted to put together GDS.
Humans beats GDS. It's probably around 60/40. Also, good Humans players beat Jund around 55/45 in my limited experience. The deck can get under them and has many creatures that are tough to deal with (like Mantis Rider or Reflector Mage just to name 2). If you find out how to beat Humans with GDS, please let me know because honestly it's the only thing keeping me from running GDS more often.
I have been telling people for the past 2 weeks (before Steve Locke won the GP) that Humans is the best deck in Modern, but not by much. Jund is at its heels. Like ktkenshinx alluded to about decks in Modern not having too many 50/50 matchups, I believe Humans IS that type of deck. It has a lot of 50/50 matchups and a few that are easier. That could be a sign of something to come and I believe truly that if there is a Human printed that pushed Humans over the top, something could be necessary.
P.S. - I played Titanshift with 3 Roast and 2 Anger of the Gods in the SB to go with MB 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Slagstorm last night at MNM. I ran into 2 Humans decks, losing one of them 1-2 and winning the other 2-1. One game in each of the matches was determined by me not having early interaction and Champion/Thalia's Lieutenant, and a slew of other creatures putting them out of "3 damage" range quickly. I think honestly, and this is the first time I'm saying this, I have to metagame against Humans at both stores that I go to.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm still not honestly sure what to think about Humans. It squeaks out games against jund and UWR way more often than you would think from looking at the cards, though I don't think it's positive against those decks, and it can beat basically anything. I'm enjoying playing it but I'm terrified to see how it goes against other tribal aggro decks.
My general thoughts are that any kind of tribal aggro deck is going to struggle to stay tier 1 for a long period of time, but I'm not sure it's such a bad thing either if it is.
Could you imagine having to explain any of the humans cards on the banlist? What would you even ban if it became a 25% deck like pod? I realize that it's a long way from that, but it's just comical to think of like Champion of the Parish or Aether Vial on a ban list.
In a vaccum, there are many cards on the ban list that are ridiculous looking. Its all about context
As much as I enjoy URx vs BGx, I completely agree that they need bad match ups for the meta game to cycle.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think any metagame where bogles is regularly at the top of the format or that the 13 planeswalker Gideon deck is even playable to be a sign of a serious imbalance and I think grindy card advantage strategies are warping the format around them. Anecdotal for sure but I played BG midrange at a 1K on the weekend, saw Burn, Humans, Ponza and UR tempo in my Swiss, lots of Taxes and other stuff around the room, and the finals ended up being myself, 4 Jund decks (well 3, one was blue Jund that cut bobs for Jace), Ponza, UR Thing and Dredge just stomping everyone. It's anecdotal and not statistically significant but I think it's what we're going to see a lot of moving forward where the format is slow enough that we're gonna see bogles and hollow one vs planeswalkers at least until the meta corrects somehow.
I don't think you give people enough credit for adaptation. When the banlist was updated, EVERYONE knew what decks people were going to be trying. Like I said previously, it's been two months let stuff settle before talking about things being warped.
In a vaccum, there are many cards on the ban list that are ridiculous looking. Its all about context
This is definitely true, but I think they try to avoid having some oddball card there in most circumstances if they can. Occasionally, yes a card like Blazing Shoal will be on there, which a newer player may question until they realize that Infect and Poison exists. But cards like Deathrite Shaman, Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise, Skullclamp, ... cards like that are somewhat easy to identify as extremely pushed cards (I don't personally like saying designer mistakes because I occasionally enjoy playing broken cards).
Oh I'm not looking to GDS for humans, UWR can blow up a lot of creatures. A few scoops after Bolt, Helix, Electroylize, Path, Snap Bolt.
GDS is just something I never gave a lot of time to.
I had been playing Grishoalbrand, Bogles, and a lot of Combo decks and it was nice to have the change. It was nice to have more consistency and be the one doing the "discard, let's see who top decks better game." Since you've played UWR, you probably won't appreciate the consistency thing as much as I did, but you will love the "raw power" thing, ie. casting a 6/6 and ending the game 2 turns later.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
In a vaccum, there are many cards on the ban list that are ridiculous looking. Its all about context
This is definitely true, but I think they try to avoid having some oddball card there in most circumstances if they can. Occasionally, yes a card like Blazing Shoal will be on there, which a newer player may question until they realize that Infect and Poison exists. But cards like Deathrite Shaman, Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise, Skullclamp, ... cards like that are somewhat easy to identify as extremely pushed cards (I don't personally like saying designer mistakes because I occasionally enjoy playing broken cards).
Yeah but there's a lot of other cards that aren't that badly designed unless you know the format like Seething Song or Summer Bloom, cards that a newer player would play with and not understand why they are OP unless they have a specific build to abuse them. Maybe something like Seething Song, they'd think is a good card, but ban worthy?
Humans? I dunno. I have a tough time believing that a ban is necessary for a deck that wins through synergy. Kinda reminds me of grixis shadow, where it just took some time before people went "hey a third of my store is playing a deck that is apparently weak to hatebears" situation. Online is one thing, but especially in paper if you drop 1K on a deck very few people will find out it is not winning as much and just spend another 1K on another deck.
Humans? I dunno. I have a tough time believing that a ban is necessary for a deck that wins through synergy. Kinda reminds me of grixis shadow, where it just took some time before people went "hey a third of my store is playing a deck that is apparently weak to hatebears" situation. Online is one thing, but especially in paper if you drop 1K on a deck very few people will find out it is not winning as much and just spend another 1K on another deck.
If you had infinite funds, what would you choose to beat Humans, yet do well vs. a variety of Tier 1/2 decks?
The other Company decks usually beat it, although it's closer than you'd think in my opinion. But they simply don't hold up as strong vs. the rest of the meta. (although I do think that Elves and Counters is a solid meta call right now)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm still not honestly sure what to think about Humans. It squeaks out games against jund and UWR way more often than you would think from looking at the cards, though I don't think it's positive against those decks, and it can beat basically anything. I'm enjoying playing it but I'm terrified to see how it goes against other tribal aggro decks.
My general thoughts are that any kind of tribal aggro deck is going to struggle to stay tier 1 for a long period of time, but I'm not sure it's such a bad thing either if it is.
Could you imagine having to explain any of the humans cards on the banlist? What would you even ban if it became a 25% deck like pod? I realize that it's a long way from that, but it's just comical to think of like Champion of the Parish or Aether Vial on a ban list.
if they wanted to weaken humans i think they would go after the rainbow lands.
also jeskai control is favored against humans. maybe in the 65-35 or 60-40 range. they have draws that are particularly good, but otherwise their deck just doesnt line up with an opponent who has 10-12 spot removal spells and multiple sweepers before even going to the sideboard.
Humans? I dunno. I have a tough time believing that a ban is necessary for a deck that wins through synergy. Kinda reminds me of grixis shadow, where it just took some time before people went "hey a third of my store is playing a deck that is apparently weak to hatebears" situation. Online is one thing, but especially in paper if you drop 1K on a deck very few people will find out it is not winning as much and just spend another 1K on another deck.
If you had infinite funds, what would you choose to beat Humans, yet do well vs. a variety of Tier 1/2 decks?
The other Company decks usually beat it, although it's closer than you'd think in my opinion. But they simply don't hold up as strong vs. the rest of the meta. (although I do think that Elves and Counters is a solid meta call right now)
I'd probably try out Jeskai Flash, which people generally abandoned after the unbans to either play jund or run control with Jace. That or I'd go back to Grixis Delver with 4 bolt, 2-3 push, 1-2 electrolyze and a pair of K-command (and spell snare, ******* love that card). That was my fair deck of choice before I had to sell the thing to upgrade houses lol. I'm not saying I'd dominate the humans deck, but if I could take anything I'd go there.
I'm also building burn with the intention of running a couple Angers in the side. Those damn lands going up has slowed my progress slightly. And that's the thing, budgets do matter. Most players can't afford, or don't want to buy into, six modern decks. Thus, in paper where things are more expensive, the meta is less likely to shift. Then we have situations where humans appears to be better than it is. Toss in that since the pro tour, more and more top level players have opted for humans just like they did with grixis shadow last year, and the dominance gets put into a better perspective than "it's just the best deck by far."
And I agree with you. I think that a lot of people underestimate the Humans deck, even if Steve Locke won a GP (and Collins Mullen won an Open) with it. There is a possible turn 3 kill in the deck and turn 4 gets a lot more common. The ability to race or disrupt a non interactive deck, while tempoing decks that try to be removal.dec makes it tough to beat the deck.
@BlueTronFTW - I'm unsure about Jeskai, so I won't go too much further there. It feels like a deck that has a lot of 50/50 matchups and some poor ones though. As for Grixis, even if you beat Humans, there is so much that beats you. Grixis Shadow is an overall better deck, even if it has a somewhat rough time with Humans. Delver is an inconsistent card in Modern. This isn't Legacy; not close. It is a fun deck. Don't get me wrong. I actually enjoy playing Grixis Control from time to time, but when I run into Tron or even something like Affinity (and don't draw a million Fatal Push/Bolt/ScM), I remember what makes it "unfun." W/L percentages.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
yeah i guess it would be good not to get ahead of ourselves. we are discussing SFM unban like its a foregone conclusion, when in reality it would only come up close to a year from now if at all.
as for the format right now. well im not sure. i dont think i can say anything has improved; people might point out that diversity has looked great and so on. however the format was looking good before the unbans too.
blue decks are in no better position than they were before jace. jund is back to its old form, but its just supplanted BG, abzan, and the new kid on the block with mardu. all of which were doing fine.
ponza being much better isn't exactly an outcome that i'd label as a resounding success. its not like people were deeply yearning for a LD deck. so id chalk that one up to being neutral.
hollow one is exploding onto the scene, but that would have happened regardless of the unbans and humans is in the same position it was before.
yeah any way that i look at it, it just seems like business as usual. pointing towards the format being able to handle the adoption of powerful cards without flipping on its head; but not exactly evidence that such things actually improve the format.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)SCG Columbus had 2 Jeskai Control lists in the finals, the 2nd last major tourney before the unbans.
Ponza seems to be unfavorable for Jeskai. Not sure about the other U control decks tho.
Azban seems dead. Lingering Souls decks in general (Azban, Mardu) seems to be on the downswing, a card that was getting a lot more play towards the end to battle vs Grixis Death's Shadow.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
imagine if only jace was unbanned. the way i see things nothing would be different.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I agree. However, Ponza is another deck U control needs to worry about, and from what I've seen, its a tough matchup (for Jeskai at least).
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
But hold on, that's not even fair contextually. Primarily, because that format has Umezawa's Jitte. Yet as for "how much" play it actually sees, take a look here. Stoneforge Mystic is in 23rd position for format staples overall. Being included in 11.27% of the metagame. Green Sun's Zenith is even dramatically lower with 40th place.
I'm not going to say it won't have an impact if unbanned, because it will, but it doesn't seem dramatically far-fetched in a world with Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
SFM probably wouldnt see too much or too little play. its just a value card that would go into fair decks, most of which could care less if you can kill it because that means you are trading resource, which is what fair decks want to be doing. its not like people arent playing goyfs because it can be outsized on the early turns, or not playing dark confidant because it can be killed by gut shot.
im pretty ambivalent to the whole idea because frankly its a fair card against other fair decks. people arent wracking their brains looking for ways to fight on that axis. they are trying to find ways not to get blown out by a turn 3 karn, or any number of other silly things going on.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It'll be cool if they were only cards that exist, i.e. Counterspell, and not newly thought of and hardly tested BS cards like True-Name Nemesis
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Storm is way down. It can still spike an event, but it's no longer a top dog because of an awful humans matchup plus burn. Eldrazi Tron is losing steam in favor of RG spaghetti builds which are slightly less explosive but feature BBE to abuse. Some decks that are tough for fair decks are dipping down. Unfair decks have a role to play, including ramp. As someone who isn't a fan of fair midrange and control grindfests...you have to have a few bad matchups lol.
I get it. The point to a fair deck is supposedly having a close matchup everywhere. My own LGS is full of these players who want the entire thing to end based on their own skill and choices (some taking it a bit too seriously sometimes). Tron, and to a lesser extent eldrazi and valakut, are the decks that keep those fair decks from being the only top choices, while also opening up the field to things like storm, affinity etc whenever they start to take up larger meta shares.
And to be entirely honest, one reason I prefer it this way is that those fair decks tend to be the most expensive ones. As much as I'd love for the state of modern and modern prices discussions to be entirely separated, I think the overlap between the two has to be acknowledged every so often. I'm building burn to compete while not eating up an entire month's rent.
Spirits
My general thoughts are that any kind of tribal aggro deck is going to struggle to stay tier 1 for a long period of time, but I'm not sure it's such a bad thing either if it is.
Could you imagine having to explain any of the humans cards on the banlist? What would you even ban if it became a 25% deck like pod? I realize that it's a long way from that, but it's just comical to think of like Champion of the Parish or Aether Vial on a ban list.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
There are no decks crushing it right now, though I'm almost tempted to put together GDS.
Spirits
I agree wholeheartedly. I think any metagame where bogles is regularly at the top of the format or that the 13 planeswalker Gideon deck is even playable to be a sign of a serious imbalance and I think grindy card advantage strategies are warping the format around them. Anecdotal for sure but I played BG midrange at a 1K on the weekend, saw Burn, Humans, Ponza and UR tempo in my Swiss, lots of Taxes and other stuff around the room, and the finals ended up being myself, 4 Jund decks (well 3, one was blue Jund that cut bobs for Jace), Ponza, UR Thing and Dredge just stomping everyone. It's anecdotal and not statistically significant but I think it's what we're going to see a lot of moving forward where the format is slow enough that we're gonna see bogles and hollow one vs planeswalkers at least until the meta corrects somehow.
Humans beats GDS. It's probably around 60/40. Also, good Humans players beat Jund around 55/45 in my limited experience. The deck can get under them and has many creatures that are tough to deal with (like Mantis Rider or Reflector Mage just to name 2). If you find out how to beat Humans with GDS, please let me know because honestly it's the only thing keeping me from running GDS more often.
I have been telling people for the past 2 weeks (before Steve Locke won the GP) that Humans is the best deck in Modern, but not by much. Jund is at its heels. Like ktkenshinx alluded to about decks in Modern not having too many 50/50 matchups, I believe Humans IS that type of deck. It has a lot of 50/50 matchups and a few that are easier. That could be a sign of something to come and I believe truly that if there is a Human printed that pushed Humans over the top, something could be necessary.
P.S. - I played Titanshift with 3 Roast and 2 Anger of the Gods in the SB to go with MB 4 Lightning Bolt and 2 Slagstorm last night at MNM. I ran into 2 Humans decks, losing one of them 1-2 and winning the other 2-1. One game in each of the matches was determined by me not having early interaction and Champion/Thalia's Lieutenant, and a slew of other creatures putting them out of "3 damage" range quickly. I think honestly, and this is the first time I'm saying this, I have to metagame against Humans at both stores that I go to.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)In a vaccum, there are many cards on the ban list that are ridiculous looking. Its all about context
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
GDS is just something I never gave a lot of time to.
Spirits
I don't think you give people enough credit for adaptation. When the banlist was updated, EVERYONE knew what decks people were going to be trying. Like I said previously, it's been two months let stuff settle before talking about things being warped.
This is definitely true, but I think they try to avoid having some oddball card there in most circumstances if they can. Occasionally, yes a card like Blazing Shoal will be on there, which a newer player may question until they realize that Infect and Poison exists. But cards like Deathrite Shaman, Mental Misstep, Treasure Cruise, Skullclamp, ... cards like that are somewhat easy to identify as extremely pushed cards (I don't personally like saying designer mistakes because I occasionally enjoy playing broken cards).
I had been playing Grishoalbrand, Bogles, and a lot of Combo decks and it was nice to have the change. It was nice to have more consistency and be the one doing the "discard, let's see who top decks better game." Since you've played UWR, you probably won't appreciate the consistency thing as much as I did, but you will love the "raw power" thing, ie. casting a 6/6 and ending the game 2 turns later.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Yeah but there's a lot of other cards that aren't that badly designed unless you know the format like Seething Song or Summer Bloom, cards that a newer player would play with and not understand why they are OP unless they have a specific build to abuse them. Maybe something like Seething Song, they'd think is a good card, but ban worthy?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
If you had infinite funds, what would you choose to beat Humans, yet do well vs. a variety of Tier 1/2 decks?
The other Company decks usually beat it, although it's closer than you'd think in my opinion. But they simply don't hold up as strong vs. the rest of the meta. (although I do think that Elves and Counters is a solid meta call right now)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)if they wanted to weaken humans i think they would go after the rainbow lands.
also jeskai control is favored against humans. maybe in the 65-35 or 60-40 range. they have draws that are particularly good, but otherwise their deck just doesnt line up with an opponent who has 10-12 spot removal spells and multiple sweepers before even going to the sideboard.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I'd probably try out Jeskai Flash, which people generally abandoned after the unbans to either play jund or run control with Jace. That or I'd go back to Grixis Delver with 4 bolt, 2-3 push, 1-2 electrolyze and a pair of K-command (and spell snare, ******* love that card). That was my fair deck of choice before I had to sell the thing to upgrade houses lol. I'm not saying I'd dominate the humans deck, but if I could take anything I'd go there.
I'm also building burn with the intention of running a couple Angers in the side. Those damn lands going up has slowed my progress slightly. And that's the thing, budgets do matter. Most players can't afford, or don't want to buy into, six modern decks. Thus, in paper where things are more expensive, the meta is less likely to shift. Then we have situations where humans appears to be better than it is. Toss in that since the pro tour, more and more top level players have opted for humans just like they did with grixis shadow last year, and the dominance gets put into a better perspective than "it's just the best deck by far."
Humans is a fast, consistent, linear agro deck that also happens to have disruption. There might be too much going on there
Don't forget Kitesail Freebooter, then Sin Collector and Gaddock Teeg out of the SB.
And I agree with you. I think that a lot of people underestimate the Humans deck, even if Steve Locke won a GP (and Collins Mullen won an Open) with it. There is a possible turn 3 kill in the deck and turn 4 gets a lot more common. The ability to race or disrupt a non interactive deck, while tempoing decks that try to be removal.dec makes it tough to beat the deck.
@BlueTronFTW - I'm unsure about Jeskai, so I won't go too much further there. It feels like a deck that has a lot of 50/50 matchups and some poor ones though. As for Grixis, even if you beat Humans, there is so much that beats you. Grixis Shadow is an overall better deck, even if it has a somewhat rough time with Humans. Delver is an inconsistent card in Modern. This isn't Legacy; not close. It is a fun deck. Don't get me wrong. I actually enjoy playing Grixis Control from time to time, but when I run into Tron or even something like Affinity (and don't draw a million Fatal Push/Bolt/ScM), I remember what makes it "unfun." W/L percentages.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)