So I'm having a nice and friendly debate with Izzetmage (mad respect) and a point came out. He said every red aggro deck, except affinity, should play bolt. Or something very close to that. So my question is this. Are we really so blind in bolt is this amazing spell that every red aggro deck has to play it main? Or are we looking at just conviential wisdom? A long time ago the planet was flat apparently. Does it hold true for the alpha reprint?
Can a red aggro deck exist without this card? What happens if you walk off the edge and built a good deck where this is just a really good SB card? Is that even possible?
If that statement he made is true then there is atleast one exception to the must main bolt rule. Why can't there be another?
I look forward to your responses.
Since you have specified "aggro," it does seem like Lightning Bolt is an auto-include. I mean, even most Control decks are going to want 3 damage for 1 mana, instant speed, at any non-hexproof target. That's "value" right there, and any aggro deck is going to want the best value for their mana spent. With this in mind, it does seem like Lightning Bolt fits in "most" red decks, but pretty much all "aggro" decks for sure. I'm hard pressed to think of a board state or a scenario where the red mage doesn't want his Lightning Bolts available.
Since you have specified "aggro," it does seem like Lightning Bolt is an auto-include. I mean, even most Control decks are going to want 3 damage for 1 mana, instant speed, at any non-hexproof target. That's "value" right there, and any aggro deck is going to want the best value for their mana spent. With this in mind, it does seem like Lightning Bolt fits in "most" red decks, but pretty much all "aggro" decks for sure. I'm hard pressed to think of a board state or a scenario where the red mage doesn't want his Lightning Bolts available.
Agreed. All that comes to mind for Red decks are weird corner cases like:
Some Storm lists where you want to minimize the number of non-ritual/non-cantrip cards you draw (but even then you often run it in the sideboard)
Bant Knightfall, where the R is really a splash to activate Kessig Wolf Run and you run Collected Company so you need as few non-creature spells as possible
Decks like RW Prison where you use 2-mana "bolts" instead because one of your best plays is Turn 1 Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice of the Void, which locks you out of 1-CMC spells
Affinity, where you have access to the pretty much strictly superior Galvanic Blast
Other than corner cases like those, I can't really fathom a reason you wouldn't run it. Especially in an aggro deck, where you need to clear the way for your creatures and/or close out a game with burn. It's not exactly a matter of blindless as it is of just recognizing that Bolt is an extraordinarily strong card.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
The only tiered examples of a no-Bolt red deck are Affinity (Blast > Bolt), RW Lockdown (Chalice @ 1 shuts off Bolt), Dredge (doesn't fit the gameplan), and Living End (conflicts with cascade). Those are pretty narrow examples, however, so it's generally a good rule to include Bolt if you're playing red. If anyone watched Caleb's recent (and hilarious) Expertise videos on ChannelFireball, you'll see him talk about how he wishes certain bad cards were just Lightning Bolt in his red deck. This is often going to the case.
Bolt is why many feel obliged to even include Red in their decks (Grixis vs Esper for example or Naya vs Bant) and in an aggressive shell, the utility present, removal, closer, pressure, of Bolt is critical.
I believe only during Eldrazi Winter, was Bolt on a downswing.
Since you have specified "aggro," it does seem like Lightning Bolt is an auto-include. I mean, even most Control decks are going to want 3 damage for 1 mana, instant speed, at any non-hexproof target. That's "value" right there, and any aggro deck is going to want the best value for their mana spent. With this in mind, it does seem like Lightning Bolt fits in "most" red decks, but pretty much all "aggro" decks for sure. I'm hard pressed to think of a board state or a scenario where the red mage doesn't want his Lightning Bolts available.
Agreed. All that comes to mind for Red decks are weird corner cases like:
Some Storm lists where you want to minimize the number of non-ritual/non-cantrip cards you draw (but even then you often run it in the sideboard)
Bant Knightfall, where the R is really a splash to activate Kessig Wolf Run and you run Collected Company so you need as few non-creature spells as possible
Decks like RW Prison where you use 2-mana "bolts" instead because one of your best plays is Turn 1 Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice of the Void, which locks you out of 1-CMC spells
Affinity, where you have access to the pretty much strictly superior Galvanic Blast
Other than corner cases like those, I can't really fathom a reason you wouldn't run it. Especially in an aggro deck, where you need to clear the way for your creatures and/or close out a game with burn. It's not exactly a matter of blindless as it is of just recognizing that Bolt is an extraordinarily strong card.
Just a quick input about Bant Knightfall... That deck, for the most part, also absolutely wants to run Bolt. Having played it extensively, I'd never have left home without a full set of Bolts with that deck.
Splashing red for Kessig AND Bolt is more accurate, as the deck COULD easily replace it with Rogue's Passage.
Since you have specified "aggro," it does seem like Lightning Bolt is an auto-include. I mean, even most Control decks are going to want 3 damage for 1 mana, instant speed, at any non-hexproof target. That's "value" right there, and any aggro deck is going to want the best value for their mana spent. With this in mind, it does seem like Lightning Bolt fits in "most" red decks, but pretty much all "aggro" decks for sure. I'm hard pressed to think of a board state or a scenario where the red mage doesn't want his Lightning Bolts available.
Agreed. All that comes to mind for Red decks are weird corner cases like:
Some Storm lists where you want to minimize the number of non-ritual/non-cantrip cards you draw (but even then you often run it in the sideboard)
Bant Knightfall, where the R is really a splash to activate Kessig Wolf Run and you run Collected Company so you need as few non-creature spells as possible
Decks like RW Prison where you use 2-mana "bolts" instead because one of your best plays is Turn 1 Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice of the Void, which locks you out of 1-CMC spells
Affinity, where you have access to the pretty much strictly superior Galvanic Blast
Other than corner cases like those, I can't really fathom a reason you wouldn't run it. Especially in an aggro deck, where you need to clear the way for your creatures and/or close out a game with burn. It's not exactly a matter of blindless as it is of just recognizing that Bolt is an extraordinarily strong card.
Just a quick input about Bant Knightfall... That deck, for the most part, also absolutely wants to run Bolt. Having played it extensively, I'd never have left home without a full set of Bolts with that deck.
Splashing red for Kessig AND Bolt is more accurate, as the deck COULD easily replace it with Rogue's Passage.
Funny; I tried that too and found that even though I wanted the extra interaction, it lead to too many whiffs on CoCo and too awkward mana fixing. Neither here nor there, though.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
You don't need to run bolt and as a result I don't need to worry about seeing you at the top tables.
To actually answer your question instead of just being snarky (couldn't resist), bolt is such a versatile and efficient spell that it really requires you to ask the inverse of the question you're asking. Instead of asking "why run bolt?" you really should ask yourself how you justify not including it.
Bolt is really 3 things, and all are essential to red-based aggro. It's removal, it's burn, and it's reach. The last two are related but different. Burn implies that it's at least a secondary or tertiary strategy but reach means that when the battlefield is clogged you have a way to hit those last few points of damage.
So if you're a quick red aggro deck, you may not need the burn. But you probably want the removal and reach.
If you're a red burn deck you want the burn (duh) but probably don't need the removal and reach is implied in burn in this instance.
If you're a big red aggro deck you probably want the removal for early turns but don't care as much about burn or reach.
So what kind of red aggro deck are you making where you think bolt is unnecessary?
In an extremely linear deck, where every slot needs to have synergy, it's possible that Bolt might not be optimal for the maindeck. For example a tribal strategy with Slivers or Goblins or something.
Oh I'm of the thought that bolt is almost always required in red aggro decks. Don't get me wrong. The comment that Izzetmage made opened my eyes and peaked my interest. The comment on the thread (RG Supervine) is that bolt is one of the flex cards, and that any red based aggro deck plays bolt, with the exclusion of affinity. So I just asked the questions in the OP to pick y'alls brains. All great responses.
In an extremely linear deck, where every slot needs to have synergy, it's possible that Bolt might not be optimal for the maindeck. For example a tribal strategy with Slivers or Goblins or something.
or in the case of shamans where reach and removal is exactly what is required...it synergizes with the noncombat damage nature of the deck. even goblins has its use for bolt. The extremely linear red tribal decks love the card often and hate the card only when they need to build a board.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
The only time I ran a red aggro deck that I didnt "build" like I wanted bolt was Shamanism. I used atarka's command though. And I still wanted bolts, but the deck rather a bolt on legs, since it wants a creature every turn.
Pretty much everything else had bolt. Even my madness deck just wanted bolts in the end. Dredge uses lightning axe in the board instead of bolt.
All the Death's shadow lists have switched from Bolt to Tarfire, as it is a superior Delirium enabler and feeds tarmogoyf.
Basically, red aggro always needs Lightning Bolt. For some rare builds, there is a better option (Galvanic Blast, Tarfire) but thone are the only cases. Lightning Bolt is one of the best cards in modern
I've heard reports that, in the 4-colour older Suicide Shadow builds, Bolt was often a 2-of and reportedly was often used to lower the life total of the Suicide Shadow player (because big Death's Shadow is that good). The current Traverse the Ulvenwald builds of Suicide Shadow want Tarfire instead for easy Delirium.
Midrange (and controlling, and combo) red(-splashing) decks forgo Bolt more often than you'd think. RG Tron easily uses other red removal (the old classic is Pyroclasm) instead of Bolt. Kiki Chord often doesn't run full playsets of removal, including Bolt. RG Valakut variants sometimes run other cheap hoser cards (such as Relic of Progenitus or Chalice of the Void) instead of Bolt. UGrx Bring to Light Scapeshift often doesn't run a full playset of Bolt.
Kiki Chord some times runs bolt, but they most often want path to exile. It is not really an agro deck though, and sometimes lightning helix makes more sence.
If your deck has acess to white, red or black you really shoul auto include path, bolt or fatal push if you want to have some interaction with the oponents gameplan, or in the case of bolt, kill him.
To the OP: I would take what your friend is saying with a pinch of salt. He is talking very hyperbolic, and he does not seems to know the meta that well if he thinks affinaty should play bolt, when they have super bolt that deals 4 damage.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Kiki Chord some times runs bolt, but they most often want path to exile. It is not really an agro deck though, and sometimes lightning helix makes more sence.
If your deck has acess to white, red or black you really shoul auto include path, bolt or fatal push if you want to have some interaction with the oponents gameplan, or in the case of bolt, kill him.
To the OP: I would take what your friend is saying with a pinch of salt. He is talking very hyperbolic, and he does not seems to know the meta that well if he thinks affinaty should play bolt, when they have super bolt that deals 4 damage.
His "friend" is izzetmage, a veteran of this forum. And izzetmage said that affinity would be one of the exceptions to the rule, not that affinity should play Lightning Bolt.
'Every red fast deck should play bolt, except where not appropriate.' is nothing new in modern. And it is also not wisdom from the forbidden fruit of the garden of eden.
Where it could be interesting is to see how a deck like jund or mardu lands on the removal suite.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Nobody who was actually doing scientific study ever thought the world was flat. Like ever. In ancient Egypt they even worked out the circumference of the earth pretty accurately.
It was just the (pardon the phrase) ignorant masses who had such ideas, a classic example of lack of perspective (literally AND metaphorically haha).
With regards to bolt:
Modern isn't perfect. One of the main complaints is that it needs answers. Bolt happens to be one of the better answers in the format, as well as an aggro tool. It also single-handedly allows snapcaster tempo decks to exist, and grixis or temur coloured decks to function. Without bolt, every blue deck would have to lean too heavily on white or black for the creature removal. Not to mention format mainstays like jund would completely crumble and be replaced by abzan if bolt disappeared.
Oh and without bolt there's no delver decks.
I get that it's pretty synonymous with aggro in the format, but like Brainstorm in legacy, it's a pillar of the format, and it solves more problems than it creates.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
All decks builds have staples. When I started playing, that meant these cards if you were making a mono colored deck:
white: Swords to Plowshares (I guess Path to Exile for Modern)
blue: Counterspell (because Cancel is 99.9999% never better) (Ancestral Recall was already banned)
black: Dark Ritual (not modern)
red: lightning Bolt
Green: Llanowar Elves (now Elvish Mystic for the new generation)
It is hard to outdo bolt for it's cost effectiveness and speed for all that it does. Now don't get me wrong, if this was the EDH forum and not Modern I'd agree that it is probably...possible... to build a red commander deck that would survive with out a single LB. Even saying that now makes me feel very uncomfortable about my newly made Pia Nalaar deck; but for modern-monored-aggro? Lightning Bolt is that much of a powerful card that answers so many challenges red players face.
Nobody who was actually doing scientific study ever thought the world was flat. Like ever. In ancient Egypt they even worked out the circumference of the earth pretty accurately.
It was just the (pardon the phrase) ignorant masses who had such ideas, a classic example of lack of perspective (literally AND metaphorically haha).
That's kind of the point of this little experiment. Lol
With regards to bolt:
Modern isn't perfect. One of the main complaints is that it needs answers. Bolt happens to be one of the better answers in the format, as well as an aggro tool. It also single-handedly allows snapcaster tempo decks to exist,
Pretty sure it doesn't single handedly do that... Since you also need Snapcaster. Kidding... I know what you are saying.
and grixis or temur coloured decks to function. Without bolt, every blue deck would have to lean too heavily on white or black for the creature removal. Not to mention format mainstays like jund would completely crumble and be replaced by abzan if bolt disappeared.
Oh and without bolt there's no delver decks.
To my knowledge no one is talking about bolt disappearing. I'm asking if it pretty much has to be in every red aggro deck. If built differently could they actually be better kind of question.
I get that it's pretty synonymous with aggro in the format, but like Brainstorm in legacy, it's a pillar of the format, and it solves more problems than it creates.
Again I'm asking if it kind of has to be because everyone says so or is it possible to look at things differently...
So I'm having a nice and friendly debate with Izzetmage (mad respect) and a point came out. He said every red aggro deck, except affinity, should play bolt. Or something very close to that. So my question is this. Are we really so blind in bolt is this amazing spell that every red aggro deck has to play it main? Or are we looking at just conviential wisdom? A long time ago the planet was flat apparently. Does it hold true for the alpha reprint?
Can a red aggro deck exist without this card? What happens if you walk off the edge and built a good deck where this is just a really good SB card? Is that even possible?
If that statement he made is true then there is atleast one exception to the must main bolt rule. Why can't there be another?
I look forward to your responses.
The Death's Shadow lists that did well in GP Vancouver today played Tarfire instead of Lightning Bolt due to them having essentially 8 copies of Tarmogoyf when you count Traverse the Ulvenwald and due to it counting as 2 card types for delirium.
"So every red aggro deck should play 4 bolts.*" - Izzetmage
*Some caviats do apply:
- Do not do it if the deck has some other synergi, like affinaty.
- If you have some other synergi, like enabeling delerium, do not play bolt.
- Have some reason to not play bolt because it does not fit with the gameplan, like dredge.
- If perhaps the deck has like a plan that hinges on cascade, obviusly you should not run bolt.
Sarcasemn aside, any 'rule' that needs this many exeption is not a rule.
'Bolt is a good card, that is all.' - Vidar Thorsby 2017
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Can a red aggro deck exist without this card? What happens if you walk off the edge and built a good deck where this is just a really good SB card? Is that even possible?
If that statement he made is true then there is atleast one exception to the must main bolt rule. Why can't there be another?
I look forward to your responses.
Agreed. All that comes to mind for Red decks are weird corner cases like:
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I believe only during Eldrazi Winter, was Bolt on a downswing.
Spirits
Just a quick input about Bant Knightfall... That deck, for the most part, also absolutely wants to run Bolt. Having played it extensively, I'd never have left home without a full set of Bolts with that deck.
Splashing red for Kessig AND Bolt is more accurate, as the deck COULD easily replace it with Rogue's Passage.
Funny; I tried that too and found that even though I wanted the extra interaction, it lead to too many whiffs on CoCo and too awkward mana fixing. Neither here nor there, though.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Spirits
To actually answer your question instead of just being snarky (couldn't resist), bolt is such a versatile and efficient spell that it really requires you to ask the inverse of the question you're asking. Instead of asking "why run bolt?" you really should ask yourself how you justify not including it.
Bolt is really 3 things, and all are essential to red-based aggro. It's removal, it's burn, and it's reach. The last two are related but different. Burn implies that it's at least a secondary or tertiary strategy but reach means that when the battlefield is clogged you have a way to hit those last few points of damage.
So if you're a quick red aggro deck, you may not need the burn. But you probably want the removal and reach.
If you're a red burn deck you want the burn (duh) but probably don't need the removal and reach is implied in burn in this instance.
If you're a big red aggro deck you probably want the removal for early turns but don't care as much about burn or reach.
So what kind of red aggro deck are you making where you think bolt is unnecessary?
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
or in the case of shamans where reach and removal is exactly what is required...it synergizes with the noncombat damage nature of the deck. even goblins has its use for bolt. The extremely linear red tribal decks love the card often and hate the card only when they need to build a board.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
That being said, I have that turn two token deck saffron olive piloted on his channel. It doesn't play bolts.
Pretty much everything else had bolt. Even my madness deck just wanted bolts in the end. Dredge uses lightning axe in the board instead of bolt.
Basically, red aggro always needs Lightning Bolt. For some rare builds, there is a better option (Galvanic Blast, Tarfire) but thone are the only cases. Lightning Bolt is one of the best cards in modern
Draft My Cube!
Midrange (and controlling, and combo) red(-splashing) decks forgo Bolt more often than you'd think. RG Tron easily uses other red removal (the old classic is Pyroclasm) instead of Bolt. Kiki Chord often doesn't run full playsets of removal, including Bolt. RG Valakut variants sometimes run other cheap hoser cards (such as Relic of Progenitus or Chalice of the Void) instead of Bolt. UGrx Bring to Light Scapeshift often doesn't run a full playset of Bolt.
If your deck has acess to white, red or black you really shoul auto include path, bolt or fatal push if you want to have some interaction with the oponents gameplan, or in the case of bolt, kill him.
To the OP: I would take what your friend is saying with a pinch of salt. He is talking very hyperbolic, and he does not seems to know the meta that well if he thinks affinaty should play bolt, when they have super bolt that deals 4 damage.
His "friend" is izzetmage, a veteran of this forum. And izzetmage said that affinity would be one of the exceptions to the rule, not that affinity should play Lightning Bolt.
Draft My Cube!
Where it could be interesting is to see how a deck like jund or mardu lands on the removal suite.
Nobody who was actually doing scientific study ever thought the world was flat. Like ever. In ancient Egypt they even worked out the circumference of the earth pretty accurately.
It was just the (pardon the phrase) ignorant masses who had such ideas, a classic example of lack of perspective (literally AND metaphorically haha).
With regards to bolt:
Modern isn't perfect. One of the main complaints is that it needs answers. Bolt happens to be one of the better answers in the format, as well as an aggro tool. It also single-handedly allows snapcaster tempo decks to exist, and grixis or temur coloured decks to function. Without bolt, every blue deck would have to lean too heavily on white or black for the creature removal. Not to mention format mainstays like jund would completely crumble and be replaced by abzan if bolt disappeared.
Oh and without bolt there's no delver decks.
I get that it's pretty synonymous with aggro in the format, but like Brainstorm in legacy, it's a pillar of the format, and it solves more problems than it creates.
white: Swords to Plowshares (I guess Path to Exile for Modern)
blue: Counterspell (because Cancel is 99.9999% never better) (Ancestral Recall was already banned)
black: Dark Ritual (not modern)
red: lightning Bolt
Green: Llanowar Elves (now Elvish Mystic for the new generation)
It is hard to outdo bolt for it's cost effectiveness and speed for all that it does. Now don't get me wrong, if this was the EDH forum and not Modern I'd agree that it is probably...possible... to build a red commander deck that would survive with out a single LB. Even saying that now makes me feel very uncomfortable about my newly made Pia Nalaar deck; but for modern-monored-aggro? Lightning Bolt is that much of a powerful card that answers so many challenges red players face.
That's kind of the point of this little experiment. Lol
Pretty sure it doesn't single handedly do that... Since you also need Snapcaster. Kidding... I know what you are saying.
To my knowledge no one is talking about bolt disappearing. I'm asking if it pretty much has to be in every red aggro deck. If built differently could they actually be better kind of question.
Again I'm asking if it kind of has to be because everyone says so or is it possible to look at things differently...
The Death's Shadow lists that did well in GP Vancouver today played Tarfire instead of Lightning Bolt due to them having essentially 8 copies of Tarmogoyf when you count Traverse the Ulvenwald and due to it counting as 2 card types for delirium.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
*Some caviats do apply:
- Do not do it if the deck has some other synergi, like affinaty.
- If you have some other synergi, like enabeling delerium, do not play bolt.
- Have some reason to not play bolt because it does not fit with the gameplan, like dredge.
- If perhaps the deck has like a plan that hinges on cascade, obviusly you should not run bolt.
Sarcasemn aside, any 'rule' that needs this many exeption is not a rule.
'Bolt is a good card, that is all.' - Vidar Thorsby 2017