I think people dont seem to get they dont really make cards for us, like they do for edh. Eternal formats are something you just let go rampant, and then ban things if you have too. They already learned their lesson on that front. Sometimes you get eldrazi... Most times you get one or 2 cards that find their way into a deck. At best, you get a power boost for one theme of a deck.
Good example of this would be khans block, BfZ block, and Shadows block. Khans theme was shard matters. What came out of it? Good shard/ally pair colors. Did merfolk get anything? No. Seige Rhino, Attarkas command, K command, these decks did. It took Burn, a freakin' R/B deck at the time and made it into naya. It took pod and azben and made the first broke, and the second worth even talking about.
Battle came out and what got worth talking about? Eldrazi and tron. I think thats a pretty simple thing to say. Tron got a ton of power (ugin was khans, but was there as a persecutor to colorless matters from this block) and we dont need to go into eldrazi. Carry on into shadows and it may not seem like it but it did have 1 HUGE effect. It took tier 3 dredge vine and made it into tier 1 dredge, while giving eldrazi and tron a few new toys. Now on to this block... Who got good stuff? Dredge still did... why? because its the follow up in standard to a graveyard/madness block, so it still got support.
But this gives artifacts more than any deck else stuff to mess with. Naturally, this is the time you will see power go to affinity, artifact tron, lantern, those types of decks. And they will get power for the next year. It's their time. And who knows, maybe when we go back to alara, Zoo and Bant and Jund will get power.
Design pushes things that is the focus of standard, and the best of the best come to modern. But not all decks get that, generally, only what the theme is. So no, you likely wont get a counterspell... but you could if we end up in a "mind Mage" plane, sure why not. But don't expect that right now. Expect artifacts, a little more madness/graveyard/spooky creature type support, and some seeds for that ever the main theme of the next block is.
- (this is the big one!!) Cards are not designed for modern or any other eternal format and the bar in this format is exceptionally high. If you have even 3-4 cards that even kind of impact one of these formats then that means those cards are extremely powerful.
This is demonstrably untrue. Cards can be specifically tailored in such a way that they are not powerhouses in standard but do great in Eternal Formats. Examples off the top of my head include: Treasure Cruise, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Past in Flames, Ugin, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Young Pyromancer, Kolaghan's Command, etc.
There are a lot of ways of printing cards that will probably not break out of the Standard format but can make a huge impact in Modern. Prohibit (or a functional equivalent) is an example of a card often brought up that would be a huge boon to the format. Cards like Containment Priest would not really harm the standard environment but be a huge boon to white decks, and a great way of keeping things fair.
Though I realize I might have misread what you said. I'm not attacking you for the point, but I'm saying Wizards can and should design for this format as it's easy to do.
Your big point that is BOLD is no real point at all. Most everyone is aware of this factoid but again we are not in the standard section commenting on if the card has modern implications. If your not judging the cards in the context of modern then what purpose does a "modern" forum even have?
I mention this because there's a HUGE difference between saying 'This set doesn't really have anything for modern.' and 'This set is super powered down.' It's just not true. They're designing for Standard diversity and limited health - not eternal formats. I guess I just get annoyed at eternal players being relatively conceited due to poor expectations. We ARE getting playables in this set, just not 10-12 super impactful ones.
I would also point that the reason we are in the era Magic:the Pokemoning with essentially all of the design being geared towards mid-range value creatures is because WotC listened to whining and complaining from the players and designed a game that the players wanted to play. So if enough players cry for it you might actually get a counterspell functional reprint. I disagree with your assessment of AD and Terminate; they are both examples of where WotC actually prints powerful non-creature spells in the multicolored spell slots.
I don't buy any argument that Magic is a better game without the combat step as many have argued while wistfully dreaming of mono blue control from past. I also don't buy any talk about magic just being midrange battles, I just think we have a more greyed out version of what 'midrange' is compared to 5 years ago. The last standard saw one of the most brutal aggro decks EVER in a standard environment and recently (the game has been around a long time) we've had various control decks do well. I also think that eternal players adhere too literally to the necessary separation requirement for the different archetypes - a standard player can see GW tokens, GB Delirium, and Bant Company to see three different decks while the eternal players only see 'midrange' and that's a dishonest representation of the variety of strategies that these decks are looking to accomplish. Definitions need to be very different when analyzing different formats. Limited is almost by definition all midrange, but when everything is midrange then that moniker becomes less valuable for describing anything and you can instead talk about lower curved decks as aggro and higher curved decks as control. All of this is on a spectrum.
I didn't say AD and Terminate were mistakes, I said they were the most efficient possible designs that are almost impossible to improve upon without fairly dramatic power creep and as such we should expect less eternally playable midrange cards.
At no point did I say the set looked weak or anything like that, just pointed out that this is the low bar set for counter magic going forward.
I also didn't say that you said AD or Terminate were mistakes. I simply pointed out that they are evidence that wizards is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells which you did functionally say wouldn't be happening anymore in favor of Kalitas type creatures. Heck even the command cycle is recent proof of my point; that WotC is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells just they have to be gold cards or perhaps heavily dependent on a single color to prevent slashing it easily.
I've played magic for a long time(96) and this criticism of play then is slightly warped. Most of magic has been determined in the red zone with creatures. The variations were in when you attempted to pursue that goal. Aggro was turn 1-3 creatures and burn type affects and control wanted to prevent that and take the game with a massive 6-8 drop which was nearly impossible for the aggro deck to deal with.
Mid-range only refers to a period in the game. Jund is a mid-range deck not because it is the style of deck but because of the cards it plans to win with lay between 1-3(aggro)/5-8(control). GW tokens is a mid-range, Collected Company, etc... are all mid-range decks because that is the phase of the game they look to establish the win in. Mid-range like aggro or control can have variety in the strategies. Look at the modern goblins deck, I would argue it is a aggro token strategy dump as many 1/1's as fast as you can then buff them with various fast +1/+0 buffs to put the opponent in burn range. Still super aggro because of the period in which they are deploying their primary win con's.
I would agree that Mid-range has become somewhat meaningless; not because the term isn't easily defined but because WotC has stopped supporting long game control for so long that Mid-range has become the new long game. Jund/Junk decks are the best control decks in the format although many don't like the attrition/control style when facing it doesn't mean that it isn't controlling the game.
I'm of the opinion that we can have both classic style control decks and mid-range. The problem with mid-range in the days of counterspell wasn't that counterspell was so OP'ed but that WotC printed mid-range creatures like Yore-Tiller Nephilim. The pay off wasn't worth it for a 4cc 2/2 and if WotC printed a new 4cc with stats like those it wouldn't see any non-limited play.
I disagree with WotC determining that some how getting a spell countered isn't as positive a player experience than discard. At least with counterspells you can play around them with your spell sequencing and they can simply counter a spell that they shouldn't have and leave you open to land your real threat. With cheap targeted discard you quickly go from a hand worth keeping to a pile of support cards with all of the reasons you kept the hand being pitched into the yard before you could even really consider casting them.
- (this is the big one!!) Cards are not designed for modern or any other eternal format and the bar in this format is exceptionally high. If you have even 3-4 cards that even kind of impact one of these formats then that means those cards are extremely powerful.
This is demonstrably untrue. Cards can be specifically tailored in such a way that they are not powerhouses in standard but do great in Eternal Formats. Examples off the top of my head include: Treasure Cruise, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Past in Flames, Ugin, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Young Pyromancer, Kolaghan's Command, etc.
There are a lot of ways of printing cards that will probably not break out of the Standard format but can make a huge impact in Modern. Prohibit (or a functional equivalent) is an example of a card often brought up that would be a huge boon to the format. Cards like Containment Priest would not really harm the standard environment but be a huge boon to white decks, and a great way of keeping things fair.
Though I realize I might have misread what you said. I'm not attacking you for the point, but I'm saying Wizards can and should design for this format as it's easy to do.
All of the cards that you designed don't in any way conflict with my post though. For cards to have an impact on this format or the other non rotating formats they need to be extremely powerful, all of these are and none of these were specifically designed for non-rotating formats specifically. There is an exception where WOTC has directly said that it was designed for this format in Abrupt Decay, but this seems to be an outlier.
To be very clear - some cards will see play in Modern. Those cards can even be very strong. Sometimes we'll even get new staples. But! Cards are not designed for this format, and card designs are not beholden to this format. Because of this, I feel that a constant re-tempering of expectations needs to happen when evaluating cards and new sets.
As to your other point about Containment Priest and Prohibit - I don't disagree! I said simply that most of the design space is mined out for strictly better versions of midrange cards (path to exile, terminate, bolt, abrupt decay, mana leak, remand, etc.) and as time goes on we can expect less and less cards to be printed (specifically in standard) that auto replace cards in midrange decks.
- (this is the big one!!) Cards are not designed for modern or any other eternal format and the bar in this format is exceptionally high. If you have even 3-4 cards that even kind of impact one of these formats then that means those cards are extremely powerful.
This is demonstrably untrue. Cards can be specifically tailored in such a way that they are not powerhouses in standard but do great in Eternal Formats. Examples off the top of my head include: Treasure Cruise, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Past in Flames, Ugin, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Young Pyromancer, Kolaghan's Command, etc.
There are a lot of ways of printing cards that will probably not break out of the Standard format but can make a huge impact in Modern. Prohibit (or a functional equivalent) is an example of a card often brought up that would be a huge boon to the format. Cards like Containment Priest would not really harm the standard environment but be a huge boon to white decks, and a great way of keeping things fair.
Though I realize I might have misread what you said. I'm not attacking you for the point, but I'm saying Wizards can and should design for this format as it's easy to do.
"Easy to do"? That takes an awful lot of hubris.
There is a fine line between balanced for Standard and balanced for Modern. You mention Cruise and Deathrite, but both were so powerful that they got banned in Modern. DRS was also extremely potent in its time in standard.
There are a lot of hoops to jump through. Strong enough for Modern, but not so strong that it breaks Standard or Limited, but not so strong that it gets banned in Modern, but strong enough that it affects Modern. That is an extremely small wheel house to put cards into. All of the Commands from Tarkir block were designed for Modern. How many of them made it?
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
At no point did I say the set looked weak or anything like that, just pointed out that this is the low bar set for counter magic going forward.
Fair. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
I also didn't say that you said AD or Terminate were mistakes. I simply pointed out that they are evidence that wizards is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells which you did functionally say wouldn't be happening anymore in favor of Kalitas type creatures. Heck even the command cycle is recent proof of my point; that WotC is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells just they have to be gold cards or perhaps heavily dependent on a single color to prevent slashing it easily.
I'd be careful for referencing a lot of Alara block in terms of printable designs at this point because the thing is 8 years old and many cards there aren't things they want in a standard environment anymore.
I've played magic for a long time(96) and this criticism of play then is slightly warped. Most of magic has been determined in the red zone with creatures. The variations were in when you attempted to pursue that goal. Aggro was turn 1-3 creatures and burn type affects and control wanted to prevent that and take the game with a massive 6-8 drop which was nearly impossible for the aggro deck to deal with.
Mid-range only refers to a period in the game. Jund is a mid-range deck not because it is the style of deck but because of the cards it plans to win with lay between 1-3(aggro)/5-8(control). GW tokens is a mid-range, Collected Company, etc... are all mid-range decks because that is the phase of the game they look to establish the win in. Mid-range like aggro or control can have variety in the strategies. Look at the modern goblins deck, I would argue it is a aggro token strategy dump as many 1/1's as fast as you can then buff them with various fast +1/+0 buffs to put the opponent in burn range. Still super aggro because of the period in which they are deploying their primary win con's.
I would agree that Mid-range has become somewhat meaningless; not because the term isn't easily defined but because WotC has stopped supporting long game control for so long that Mid-range has become the new long game. Jund/Junk decks are the best control decks in the format although many don't like the attrition/control style when facing it doesn't mean that it isn't controlling the game.
I don't quite see how this relates to my post. I don't disagree with you on any of your analysis here, but none of this is in contradiction with what I said. People keep saying that magic is 'devolving' into midrange battles, but I just don't see that to be the case really and don't see that as a valid criticism. I only brought up midrange classifications because you mentioned it in your 'Magic the Pokemoning' midrange comments.
I'm of the opinion that we can have both classic style control decks and mid-range. The problem with mid-range in the days of counterspell wasn't that counterspell was so OP'ed but that WotC printed mid-range creatures like Yore-Tiller Nephilim. The pay off wasn't worth it for a 4cc 2/2 and if WotC printed a new 4cc with stats like those it wouldn't see any non-limited play.
I don't disagree that we can have classic control AND midrange, but how that is going to look nowadays is going to be VERY different. For interesting designs to exist at various mana costs you have to create an environment where people can actually cast and play with those things. For example, playing with things like the Dragonlords becomes almost impossible or useless in a format that contains both mana leak and terminate.
I disagree with WotC determining that some how getting a spell countered isn't as positive a player experience than discard. At least with counterspells you can play around them with your spell sequencing and they can simply counter a spell that they shouldn't have and leave you open to land your real threat. With cheap targeted discard you quickly go from a hand worth keeping to a pile of support cards with all of the reasons you kept the hand being pitched into the yard before you could even really consider casting them.
Players keep mis-representing how WOTC sees counterspells and cite 'unfun-ness' as to why they don't print them and it's just not accurate. Counterspells are problematic for a few reasons:
- Only other counterspells can interact with them (this is a HUGE issue as it's an incredibly powerful space of the color pie that only one color can interact with)
- Cheap efficient counters dis-incentivize cards that are higher up on the mana curve (Avacyn, Dragonlords, Eldrazi, etc.) - hyper efficient instant speed removal has the same problem
- Having a 'best' version of a counterspell in a given environment de-prioritizes good deck building decisions. You can see this clearest with removal, in standard WOTC doesn't want a 'best' auto 4-of removal spell because it's less interesting from a deck building perspective than a choice between 4/5 different conditional removal spells.
At no point did I say the set looked weak or anything like that, just pointed out that this is the low bar set for counter magic going forward.
Fair. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
I also didn't say that you said AD or Terminate were mistakes. I simply pointed out that they are evidence that wizards is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells which you did functionally say wouldn't be happening anymore in favor of Kalitas type creatures. Heck even the command cycle is recent proof of my point; that WotC is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells just they have to be gold cards or perhaps heavily dependent on a single color to prevent slashing it easily.
I'd be careful for referencing a lot of Alara block in terms of printable designs at this point because the thing is 8 years old and many cards there aren't things they want in a standard environment anymore.
I've played magic for a long time(96) and this criticism of play then is slightly warped. Most of magic has been determined in the red zone with creatures. The variations were in when you attempted to pursue that goal. Aggro was turn 1-3 creatures and burn type affects and control wanted to prevent that and take the game with a massive 6-8 drop which was nearly impossible for the aggro deck to deal with.
Mid-range only refers to a period in the game. Jund is a mid-range deck not because it is the style of deck but because of the cards it plans to win with lay between 1-3(aggro)/5-8(control). GW tokens is a mid-range, Collected Company, etc... are all mid-range decks because that is the phase of the game they look to establish the win in. Mid-range like aggro or control can have variety in the strategies. Look at the modern goblins deck, I would argue it is a aggro token strategy dump as many 1/1's as fast as you can then buff them with various fast +1/+0 buffs to put the opponent in burn range. Still super aggro because of the period in which they are deploying their primary win con's.
I would agree that Mid-range has become somewhat meaningless; not because the term isn't easily defined but because WotC has stopped supporting long game control for so long that Mid-range has become the new long game. Jund/Junk decks are the best control decks in the format although many don't like the attrition/control style when facing it doesn't mean that it isn't controlling the game.
I don't quite see how this relates to my post. I don't disagree with you on any of your analysis here, but none of this is in contradiction with what I said. People keep saying that magic is 'devolving' into midrange battles, but I just don't see that to be the case really and don't see that as a valid criticism. I only brought up midrange classifications because you mentioned it in your 'Magic the Pokemoning' midrange comments.
I'm of the opinion that we can have both classic style control decks and mid-range. The problem with mid-range in the days of counterspell wasn't that counterspell was so OP'ed but that WotC printed mid-range creatures like Yore-Tiller Nephilim. The pay off wasn't worth it for a 4cc 2/2 and if WotC printed a new 4cc with stats like those it wouldn't see any non-limited play.
I don't disagree that we can have classic control AND midrange, but how that is going to look nowadays is going to be VERY different. For interesting designs to exist at various mana costs you have to create an environment where people can actually cast and play with those things. For example, playing with things like the Dragonlords becomes almost impossible or useless in a format that contains both mana leak and terminate.
I disagree with WotC determining that some how getting a spell countered isn't as positive a player experience than discard. At least with counterspells you can play around them with your spell sequencing and they can simply counter a spell that they shouldn't have and leave you open to land your real threat. With cheap targeted discard you quickly go from a hand worth keeping to a pile of support cards with all of the reasons you kept the hand being pitched into the yard before you could even really consider casting them.
Players keep mis-representing how WOTC sees counterspells and cite 'unfun-ness' as to why they don't print them and it's just not accurate. Counterspells are problematic for a few reasons:
- Only other counterspells can interact with them (this is a HUGE issue as it's an incredibly powerful space of the color pie that only one color can interact with)
- Cheap efficient counters dis-incentivize cards that are higher up on the mana curve (Avacyn, Dragonlords, Eldrazi, etc.) - hyper efficient instant speed removal has the same problem
- Having a 'best' version of a counterspell in a given environment de-prioritizes good deck building decisions. You can see this clearest with removal, in standard WOTC doesn't want a 'best' auto 4-of removal spell because it's less interesting from a deck building perspective than a choice between 4/5 different conditional removal spells.
With regards to mid-range Magic has become very heavily a mid-range game. WotC hasn't been sneaky or anything with their obvious push on 2-5 drops and it is very much one of the most formative factors in what you can play in modern. I'm in no way against them printing more highly playable mid-range creatures.
Regarding counterspell. I think WotC has actually found a good means of decreasing the value of couterspell in the game. Between cards like Cavern of Souls and the "cannot be countered" affect on the creature itself, I think it would be easy for them to include it into a set and not have it just wreck the house. The closest pure U/x control style deck I can remember was sphinxes rev in RTR, and it like all control decks was only good for a short while and the meta quickly corrected to deal with it.
Overall I think that wizards has found valid powerful methods of diminishing the power of raw counters. Give the colors outside of U punishing affects or some method of uncounterability. The new spirit that you sac to give indestructible stuff like that. 1/1 for 1cc with sac: target creature spell cannot be countered or creature spells you cast this turn cannot be countered. Or even give a 2cc counterspell that has a serious draw back like "lands tapped to cast this spell don't untap during your next untap step" that would make it a tempo loss but still give the format access to a hard answer. Outside of them banning a massive amount of cards something like that is needed to correct the power level of some of the combo decks.
I don't agree that those are "problems" with counterspells as each color has something that it does better than any other color. To me that is a argument you could make for any given staple in any part of the color pie. Why does only red get bolt? Why does only black have targeted discard and cheap hard removal? Why does white get prison affects and strong removal? Why does green get to ramp and have the biggest baddest creatures? Each of these issues could be divided down into the "problems" that they make for game play but that is the point of the game isn't it? To build a deck identify the problems it has and attempt to sure them up in the side board. I personally don't even think with straight up counterspell a U/x control deck would dominate and maintain T1 status to much variance in the format for any U/x control deck to stay on top forever and I think the nerfing of card draw has had a more prominent role in the decline of control since the 1-2 of answer lists of the 90's and 2000's don't look so good without the massive amount of better card selection and draw that was available at the time.
I forget what article it was(search between 2007-2009 if you want to find it) in but AF stated once directly about why no counterspell reprints, and he said that the primary reason for getting rid of them was the "feeling" it left the players with, they would rather let you doom blade it or discard it out of your hand. The actual experience of having a spell countered and the psychological outcomes. That might be true of new players and I can understand that view, but to me counterspell on my creature is no different than if you doom blade it the second it hits the table unless it has a comes into play ability( and wizards has already developed a way to mitigate that with the "when cast" triggers).
I personally don't like 1cc targeted discard, but I wouldn't want it banned out of the format simply because I don't like the feeling of having my hand ripped to shreds and left looking like something I kept because I couldn't bring myself to mull to 4.
I would argue that counterspells are more interactive than discard spells, you can play around my counter, I can fall for a baited eot Kcommand only to see you stick a bomb on your follow up. I can bluff a counterspell and you can correctly determine that I am bluffing and I get wrecked on a gamble. Discard its t1 and they rip the most important card out of your hand leaving you with the things they can deal with anyways.
It feels like we should have a poll on voting best card for modern from Kaladesh. My vote is stuck between Smuggler's Copter and Cathartic Reunion. So wish there was a way that the Gearhulks could make it in modern, but with titans around I think they are all destined to the Commander bin.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
DRS was also extremely potent in its time in standard.
no it wasn't. DRS was non existent in its standard rotation.
Bull****. DRS was heavily played in the Junk Rites archetype, and faded in and out of the mainboard depending on how grave-centric the deck felt like being that week. DRS was played throughout (most of) its Standard lifespan.
Now, Junk Rites wasn't totally dominating Standard at the time, but it was certainly a powerful contender for pretty much the entire time the shell was available (so till INN rotated and took Unburial Rites and some other stuff with it).
EDIT:
It also made a breif upswing in the second string GB Whip decks during RTR-Theros as a way to get value out of the non-creatures cards the deck couldn't otherwise do much with, but I'll freely admit that deck wasn't super great (mainly because it was to slow against Blue Devotion decks).
It's not that the cards cant be good in modern and not good in standard, its that R&D does not test or design for modern. MaRo has specifically stated they do not have the resources nor the time to test for modern, which is how we end up getting banned cards like T-Cruise in the first place. This is more the point Niall was trying to get at.
I think people dont seem to get they dont really make cards for us, like they do for edh. Eternal formats are something you just let go rampant, and then ban things if you have too. They already learned their lesson on that front. Sometimes you get eldrazi... Most times you get one or 2 cards that find their way into a deck. At best, you get a power boost for one theme of a deck.
Good example of this would be khans block, BfZ block, and Shadows block. Khans theme was shard matters. What came out of it? Good shard/ally pair colors. Did merfolk get anything? No. Seige Rhino, Attarkas command, K command, these decks did. It took Burn, a freakin' R/B deck at the time and made it into naya. It took pod and azben and made the first broke, and the second worth even talking about.
Battle came out and what got worth talking about? Eldrazi and tron. I think thats a pretty simple thing to say. Tron got a ton of power (ugin was khans, but was there as a persecutor to colorless matters from this block) and we dont need to go into eldrazi. Carry on into shadows and it may not seem like it but it did have 1 HUGE effect. It took tier 3 dredge vine and made it into tier 1 dredge, while giving eldrazi and tron a few new toys. Now on to this block... Who got good stuff? Dredge still did... why? because its the follow up in standard to a graveyard/madness block, so it still got support.
But this gives artifacts more than any deck else stuff to mess with. Naturally, this is the time you will see power go to affinity, artifact tron, lantern, those types of decks. And they will get power for the next year. It's their time. And who knows, maybe when we go back to alara, Zoo and Bant and Jund will get power.
Design pushes things that is the focus of standard, and the best of the best come to modern. But not all decks get that, generally, only what the theme is. So no, you likely wont get a counterspell... but you could if we end up in a "mind Mage" plane, sure why not. But don't expect that right now. Expect artifacts, a little more madness/graveyard/spooky creature type support, and some seeds for that ever the main theme of the next block is.
To be fair pod was always busted and always had crazy high metagame share before khans.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
It feels like we should have a poll on voting best card for modern from Kaladesh. My vote is stuck between Smuggler's Copter and Cathartic Reunion. So wish there was a way that the Gearhulks could make it in modern, but with titans around I think they are all destined to the Commander bin.
One goes in a deck while the other has no home. White gearhulk is probably better than smuggler's copter since it actually has deck homes and is good against tier 1 decks.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
It feels like we should have a poll on voting best card for modern from Kaladesh. My vote is stuck between Smuggler's Copter and Cathartic Reunion. So wish there was a way that the Gearhulks could make it in modern, but with titans around I think they are all destined to the Commander bin.
One goes in a deck while the other has no home. White gearhulk is probably better than smuggler's copter since it actually has deck homes and is good against tier 1 decks.
I could see the Copter in Delver/Pyromancer builds, since you have a group of tokens that can activate the copter, and you can even use an unflipped Delver to activate it.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
It feels like we should have a poll on voting best card for modern from Kaladesh. My vote is stuck between Smuggler's Copter and Cathartic Reunion. So wish there was a way that the Gearhulks could make it in modern, but with titans around I think they are all destined to the Commander bin.
One goes in a deck while the other has no home. White gearhulk is probably better than smuggler's copter since it actually has deck homes and is good against tier 1 decks.
I could see the Copter in Delver/Pyromancer builds, since you have a group of tokens that can activate the copter, and you can even use an unflipped Delver to activate it.
Oh I never said Copter was bad, just that white gearhulk actually has a home in a tier 2 strat.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
It feels like we should have a poll on voting best card for modern from Kaladesh. My vote is stuck between Smuggler's Copter and Cathartic Reunion. So wish there was a way that the Gearhulks could make it in modern, but with titans around I think they are all destined to the Commander bin.
One goes in a deck while the other has no home. White gearhulk is probably better than smuggler's copter since it actually has deck homes and is good against tier 1 decks.
I could see the Copter in Delver/Pyromancer builds, since you have a group of tokens that can activate the copter, and you can even use an unflipped Delver to activate it.
Oh I never said Copter was bad, just that white gearhulk actually has a home in a tier 2 strat.
I'd argue that Smuggler's Copter has a home in Affinity, a tier 1 strategy- with potential to be played in Tempo strategies. I admittedly do not have much understanding of the intricacies of Kiki-Chord, but I wouldn't normally associate cards like Cataclysmic Gearhulk with that strategy from playing against it.
Im not an affinity expert... but I'm not sure if it will. The man lands and equptment all.provide the same kinda role in affinity, but better. I dont disagree flying 3/3 draw discard is good, but who are they tapping for it? Memnite? Sure. But everything else in that deck would rather attack or tap for abilities. And if they needed card selection so bad, they have a 1 cmc draw 2 card thats better. If you comapre this to drum or plating, its still worse because one helps mana fix as well as flood the board, and the other wins the game.
I dont think affinity cares. Delver might. An evasive better, they like that, it loots, they like the draw and the discard, and they have tokens to spare thanks to young pyro.
Im not an affinity expert... but I'm not sure if it will. The man lands and equptment all.provide the same kinda role in affinity, but better. I dont disagree flying 3/3 draw discard is good, but who are they tapping for it? Memnite? Sure. But everything else in that deck would rather attack or tap for abilities. And if they needed card selection so bad, they have a 1 cmc draw 2 card thats better. If you comapre this to drum or plating, its still worse because one helps mana fix as well as flood the board, and the other wins the game.
I dont think affinity cares. Delver might. An evasive better, they like that, it loots, they like the draw and the discard, and they have tokens to spare thanks to young pyro
I think you're looking at the card the wrong way. Basically, once it's on the board, it gives anything you've dropped that turn haste and loots. That's why it's good with YP. That's why it's good in Affinity.
Do you want to play a
2 mana equipment
+2/+2 to +0/+1 (YP token to flipped Delver crewing)
haste, flying
loots on attack and block
totem armor
equip 0
?
It doesn't flip Delver (but pseudo-flips it, so that's nice?) and doesn't pressure the board. It doesn't provide card advantage, although filtering past the few lands they have can be nice, or past late Delvers.
The Copter sounds pretty nice, but only with other creatures and at that point, playing "protect the queen" and riding your stuff to victory is probably the easiest solution, while without a creature it just sits there.
Just a thought:
It would be cute with Bitterblossom, as you can reliably crew every turn and the tokens get virtually haste.
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DRS was also extremely potent in its time in standard.
no it wasn't. DRS was non existent in its standard rotation.
Bull****. DRS was heavily played in the Junk Rites archetype, and faded in and out of the mainboard depending on how grave-centric the deck felt like being that week. DRS was played throughout (most of) its Standard lifespan.
Now, Junk Rites wasn't totally dominating Standard at the time, but it was certainly a powerful contender for pretty much the entire time the shell was available (so till INN rotated and took Unburial Rites and some other stuff with it).
EDIT:
It also made a breif upswing in the second string GB Whip decks during RTR-Theros as a way to get value out of the non-creatures cards the deck couldn't otherwise do much with, but I'll freely admit that deck wasn't super great (mainly because it was to slow against Blue Devotion decks).
sure, it's a mistake to use absolutes. Someone somewhere brings shivan dragons to every fnm also. But there were no meaningful results with the card and I was responding to a statement that said it was "extremely potent," which is patently false. Even in the decks you mentioned it was arguably the weakest or "cutest" card in the list.
DRS was also extremely potent in its time in standard.
no it wasn't. DRS was non existent in its standard rotation.
Bull****. DRS was heavily played in the Junk Rites archetype, and faded in and out of the mainboard depending on how grave-centric the deck felt like being that week. DRS was played throughout (most of) its Standard lifespan.
Now, Junk Rites wasn't totally dominating Standard at the time, but it was certainly a powerful contender for pretty much the entire time the shell was available (so till INN rotated and took Unburial Rites and some other stuff with it).
EDIT:
It also made a breif upswing in the second string GB Whip decks during RTR-Theros as a way to get value out of the non-creatures cards the deck couldn't otherwise do much with, but I'll freely admit that deck wasn't super great (mainly because it was to slow against Blue Devotion decks).
sure, it's a mistake to use absolutes. Someone somewhere brings shivan dragons to every fnm also. But there were no meaningful results with the card and I was responding to a statement that said it was "extremely potent," which is patently false. Even in the decks you mentioned it was arguably the weakest or "cutest" card in the list.
Not really, no. Junk Rites was basically a teir 1 deck for its Standard lifespan (though again, switching between a midrange deck and a graveyard value deck depending on meta) and the GB Whip deck was effectively tier 2.
DRS was a huge part of both those decks success, going so far as to say they both probably would have gone down a whole teir without him to give them a compact mana dork + value generator option.
It feels like we should have a poll on voting best card for modern from Kaladesh. My vote is stuck between Smuggler's Copter and Cathartic Reunion. So wish there was a way that the Gearhulks could make it in modern, but with titans around I think they are all destined to the Commander bin.
One goes in a deck while the other has no home. White gearhulk is probably better than smuggler's copter since it actually has deck homes and is good against tier 1 decks.
I could see the Copter in Delver/Pyromancer builds, since you have a group of tokens that can activate the copter, and you can even use an unflipped Delver to activate it.
Oh I never said Copter was bad, just that white gearhulk actually has a home in a tier 2 strat.
I'd argue that Smuggler's Copter has a home in Affinity, a tier 1 strategy- with potential to be played in Tempo strategies. I admittedly do not have much understanding of the intricacies of Kiki-Chord, but I wouldn't normally associate cards like Cataclysmic Gearhulk with that strategy from playing against it.
It's also good in UWR Mid range decks since the gearhulk nukes everything but itself and geist. Restoing the gearhulk is also super dirty.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Good example of this would be khans block, BfZ block, and Shadows block. Khans theme was shard matters. What came out of it? Good shard/ally pair colors. Did merfolk get anything? No. Seige Rhino, Attarkas command, K command, these decks did. It took Burn, a freakin' R/B deck at the time and made it into naya. It took pod and azben and made the first broke, and the second worth even talking about.
Battle came out and what got worth talking about? Eldrazi and tron. I think thats a pretty simple thing to say. Tron got a ton of power (ugin was khans, but was there as a persecutor to colorless matters from this block) and we dont need to go into eldrazi. Carry on into shadows and it may not seem like it but it did have 1 HUGE effect. It took tier 3 dredge vine and made it into tier 1 dredge, while giving eldrazi and tron a few new toys. Now on to this block... Who got good stuff? Dredge still did... why? because its the follow up in standard to a graveyard/madness block, so it still got support.
But this gives artifacts more than any deck else stuff to mess with. Naturally, this is the time you will see power go to affinity, artifact tron, lantern, those types of decks. And they will get power for the next year. It's their time. And who knows, maybe when we go back to alara, Zoo and Bant and Jund will get power.
Design pushes things that is the focus of standard, and the best of the best come to modern. But not all decks get that, generally, only what the theme is. So no, you likely wont get a counterspell... but you could if we end up in a "mind Mage" plane, sure why not. But don't expect that right now. Expect artifacts, a little more madness/graveyard/spooky creature type support, and some seeds for that ever the main theme of the next block is.
This is demonstrably untrue. Cards can be specifically tailored in such a way that they are not powerhouses in standard but do great in Eternal Formats. Examples off the top of my head include: Treasure Cruise, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Past in Flames, Ugin, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Young Pyromancer, Kolaghan's Command, etc.
There are a lot of ways of printing cards that will probably not break out of the Standard format but can make a huge impact in Modern. Prohibit (or a functional equivalent) is an example of a card often brought up that would be a huge boon to the format. Cards like Containment Priest would not really harm the standard environment but be a huge boon to white decks, and a great way of keeping things fair.
Though I realize I might have misread what you said. I'm not attacking you for the point, but I'm saying Wizards can and should design for this format as it's easy to do.
At no point did I say the set looked weak or anything like that, just pointed out that this is the low bar set for counter magic going forward.
I also didn't say that you said AD or Terminate were mistakes. I simply pointed out that they are evidence that wizards is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells which you did functionally say wouldn't be happening anymore in favor of Kalitas type creatures. Heck even the command cycle is recent proof of my point; that WotC is still willing to print powerful non-creature spells just they have to be gold cards or perhaps heavily dependent on a single color to prevent slashing it easily.
I've played magic for a long time(96) and this criticism of play then is slightly warped. Most of magic has been determined in the red zone with creatures. The variations were in when you attempted to pursue that goal. Aggro was turn 1-3 creatures and burn type affects and control wanted to prevent that and take the game with a massive 6-8 drop which was nearly impossible for the aggro deck to deal with.
Mid-range only refers to a period in the game. Jund is a mid-range deck not because it is the style of deck but because of the cards it plans to win with lay between 1-3(aggro)/5-8(control). GW tokens is a mid-range, Collected Company, etc... are all mid-range decks because that is the phase of the game they look to establish the win in. Mid-range like aggro or control can have variety in the strategies. Look at the modern goblins deck, I would argue it is a aggro token strategy dump as many 1/1's as fast as you can then buff them with various fast +1/+0 buffs to put the opponent in burn range. Still super aggro because of the period in which they are deploying their primary win con's.
I would agree that Mid-range has become somewhat meaningless; not because the term isn't easily defined but because WotC has stopped supporting long game control for so long that Mid-range has become the new long game. Jund/Junk decks are the best control decks in the format although many don't like the attrition/control style when facing it doesn't mean that it isn't controlling the game.
I'm of the opinion that we can have both classic style control decks and mid-range. The problem with mid-range in the days of counterspell wasn't that counterspell was so OP'ed but that WotC printed mid-range creatures like Yore-Tiller Nephilim. The pay off wasn't worth it for a 4cc 2/2 and if WotC printed a new 4cc with stats like those it wouldn't see any non-limited play.
I disagree with WotC determining that some how getting a spell countered isn't as positive a player experience than discard. At least with counterspells you can play around them with your spell sequencing and they can simply counter a spell that they shouldn't have and leave you open to land your real threat. With cheap targeted discard you quickly go from a hand worth keeping to a pile of support cards with all of the reasons you kept the hand being pitched into the yard before you could even really consider casting them.
All of the cards that you designed don't in any way conflict with my post though. For cards to have an impact on this format or the other non rotating formats they need to be extremely powerful, all of these are and none of these were specifically designed for non-rotating formats specifically. There is an exception where WOTC has directly said that it was designed for this format in Abrupt Decay, but this seems to be an outlier.
To be very clear - some cards will see play in Modern. Those cards can even be very strong. Sometimes we'll even get new staples. But! Cards are not designed for this format, and card designs are not beholden to this format. Because of this, I feel that a constant re-tempering of expectations needs to happen when evaluating cards and new sets.
As to your other point about Containment Priest and Prohibit - I don't disagree! I said simply that most of the design space is mined out for strictly better versions of midrange cards (path to exile, terminate, bolt, abrupt decay, mana leak, remand, etc.) and as time goes on we can expect less and less cards to be printed (specifically in standard) that auto replace cards in midrange decks.
I meant that we the planeswalkers who are supposed to be powerful magic users have essentially a arsenal of pokemon that battle against one another.
we can have powerful spells and powerful creatures and they need not force exclusion of the other.
"Easy to do"? That takes an awful lot of hubris.
There is a fine line between balanced for Standard and balanced for Modern. You mention Cruise and Deathrite, but both were so powerful that they got banned in Modern. DRS was also extremely potent in its time in standard.
There are a lot of hoops to jump through. Strong enough for Modern, but not so strong that it breaks Standard or Limited, but not so strong that it gets banned in Modern, but strong enough that it affects Modern. That is an extremely small wheel house to put cards into. All of the Commands from Tarkir block were designed for Modern. How many of them made it?
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Fair. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
I'd be careful for referencing a lot of Alara block in terms of printable designs at this point because the thing is 8 years old and many cards there aren't things they want in a standard environment anymore.
I don't quite see how this relates to my post. I don't disagree with you on any of your analysis here, but none of this is in contradiction with what I said. People keep saying that magic is 'devolving' into midrange battles, but I just don't see that to be the case really and don't see that as a valid criticism. I only brought up midrange classifications because you mentioned it in your 'Magic the Pokemoning' midrange comments.
I don't disagree that we can have classic control AND midrange, but how that is going to look nowadays is going to be VERY different. For interesting designs to exist at various mana costs you have to create an environment where people can actually cast and play with those things. For example, playing with things like the Dragonlords becomes almost impossible or useless in a format that contains both mana leak and terminate.
Players keep mis-representing how WOTC sees counterspells and cite 'unfun-ness' as to why they don't print them and it's just not accurate. Counterspells are problematic for a few reasons:
- Only other counterspells can interact with them (this is a HUGE issue as it's an incredibly powerful space of the color pie that only one color can interact with)
- Cheap efficient counters dis-incentivize cards that are higher up on the mana curve (Avacyn, Dragonlords, Eldrazi, etc.) - hyper efficient instant speed removal has the same problem
- Having a 'best' version of a counterspell in a given environment de-prioritizes good deck building decisions. You can see this clearest with removal, in standard WOTC doesn't want a 'best' auto 4-of removal spell because it's less interesting from a deck building perspective than a choice between 4/5 different conditional removal spells.
With regards to mid-range Magic has become very heavily a mid-range game. WotC hasn't been sneaky or anything with their obvious push on 2-5 drops and it is very much one of the most formative factors in what you can play in modern. I'm in no way against them printing more highly playable mid-range creatures.
Regarding counterspell. I think WotC has actually found a good means of decreasing the value of couterspell in the game. Between cards like Cavern of Souls and the "cannot be countered" affect on the creature itself, I think it would be easy for them to include it into a set and not have it just wreck the house. The closest pure U/x control style deck I can remember was sphinxes rev in RTR, and it like all control decks was only good for a short while and the meta quickly corrected to deal with it.
Overall I think that wizards has found valid powerful methods of diminishing the power of raw counters. Give the colors outside of U punishing affects or some method of uncounterability. The new spirit that you sac to give indestructible stuff like that. 1/1 for 1cc with sac: target creature spell cannot be countered or creature spells you cast this turn cannot be countered. Or even give a 2cc counterspell that has a serious draw back like "lands tapped to cast this spell don't untap during your next untap step" that would make it a tempo loss but still give the format access to a hard answer. Outside of them banning a massive amount of cards something like that is needed to correct the power level of some of the combo decks.
I don't agree that those are "problems" with counterspells as each color has something that it does better than any other color. To me that is a argument you could make for any given staple in any part of the color pie. Why does only red get bolt? Why does only black have targeted discard and cheap hard removal? Why does white get prison affects and strong removal? Why does green get to ramp and have the biggest baddest creatures? Each of these issues could be divided down into the "problems" that they make for game play but that is the point of the game isn't it? To build a deck identify the problems it has and attempt to sure them up in the side board. I personally don't even think with straight up counterspell a U/x control deck would dominate and maintain T1 status to much variance in the format for any U/x control deck to stay on top forever and I think the nerfing of card draw has had a more prominent role in the decline of control since the 1-2 of answer lists of the 90's and 2000's don't look so good without the massive amount of better card selection and draw that was available at the time.
I forget what article it was(search between 2007-2009 if you want to find it) in but AF stated once directly about why no counterspell reprints, and he said that the primary reason for getting rid of them was the "feeling" it left the players with, they would rather let you doom blade it or discard it out of your hand. The actual experience of having a spell countered and the psychological outcomes. That might be true of new players and I can understand that view, but to me counterspell on my creature is no different than if you doom blade it the second it hits the table unless it has a comes into play ability( and wizards has already developed a way to mitigate that with the "when cast" triggers).
I personally don't like 1cc targeted discard, but I wouldn't want it banned out of the format simply because I don't like the feeling of having my hand ripped to shreds and left looking like something I kept because I couldn't bring myself to mull to 4.
I would argue that counterspells are more interactive than discard spells, you can play around my counter, I can fall for a baited eot Kcommand only to see you stick a bomb on your follow up. I can bluff a counterspell and you can correctly determine that I am bluffing and I get wrecked on a gamble. Discard its t1 and they rip the most important card out of your hand leaving you with the things they can deal with anyways.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Bull****. DRS was heavily played in the Junk Rites archetype, and faded in and out of the mainboard depending on how grave-centric the deck felt like being that week. DRS was played throughout (most of) its Standard lifespan.
Now, Junk Rites wasn't totally dominating Standard at the time, but it was certainly a powerful contender for pretty much the entire time the shell was available (so till INN rotated and took Unburial Rites and some other stuff with it).
EDIT:
It also made a breif upswing in the second string GB Whip decks during RTR-Theros as a way to get value out of the non-creatures cards the deck couldn't otherwise do much with, but I'll freely admit that deck wasn't super great (mainly because it was to slow against Blue Devotion decks).
To be fair pod was always busted and always had crazy high metagame share before khans.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
One goes in a deck while the other has no home. White gearhulk is probably better than smuggler's copter since it actually has deck homes and is good against tier 1 decks.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I could see the Copter in Delver/Pyromancer builds, since you have a group of tokens that can activate the copter, and you can even use an unflipped Delver to activate it.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Oh I never said Copter was bad, just that white gearhulk actually has a home in a tier 2 strat.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I'd argue that Smuggler's Copter has a home in Affinity, a tier 1 strategy- with potential to be played in Tempo strategies. I admittedly do not have much understanding of the intricacies of Kiki-Chord, but I wouldn't normally associate cards like Cataclysmic Gearhulk with that strategy from playing against it.
I dont think affinity cares. Delver might. An evasive better, they like that, it loots, they like the draw and the discard, and they have tokens to spare thanks to young pyro.
I think you're looking at the card the wrong way. Basically, once it's on the board, it gives anything you've dropped that turn haste and loots. That's why it's good with YP. That's why it's good in Affinity.
Do you want to play a
2 mana equipment
+2/+2 to +0/+1 (YP token to flipped Delver crewing)
haste, flying
loots on attack and block
totem armor
equip 0
?
It doesn't flip Delver (but pseudo-flips it, so that's nice?) and doesn't pressure the board. It doesn't provide card advantage, although filtering past the few lands they have can be nice, or past late Delvers.
The Copter sounds pretty nice, but only with other creatures and at that point, playing "protect the queen" and riding your stuff to victory is probably the easiest solution, while without a creature it just sits there.
Just a thought:
It would be cute with Bitterblossom, as you can reliably crew every turn and the tokens get virtually haste.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Not really, no. Junk Rites was basically a teir 1 deck for its Standard lifespan (though again, switching between a midrange deck and a graveyard value deck depending on meta) and the GB Whip deck was effectively tier 2.
DRS was a huge part of both those decks success, going so far as to say they both probably would have gone down a whole teir without him to give them a compact mana dork + value generator option.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpboc12
| Ad Nauseam
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Big Johnny.
It's also good in UWR Mid range decks since the gearhulk nukes everything but itself and geist. Restoing the gearhulk is also super dirty.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)