Just realized that Peter Ingram's part of the bracket had him face both of his team members in the top 8 and 4. If he had won in the top 4, he would have faced a 3rd teammate. If he won that, they may have had to give him Jim Davis's "C" from his jersey.
Also, could someone explain to me how Infect beat Jund? Although I've never played the matchup, it would seem that Infect would be easier than Bogles since it opens up removal. Are Infect's speed and low cost in spells good enough to give a big nod?
Infect has godhands that no deck is able to beat, it's like some combo decks, when the other guy is on the play with that T2 lottery winning hand, you might never even have a chance...
What are these "godhands" that no deck is able to beat? Because that seems a rather bold statement.
it's not hard to guess what i'm talking about, either the double fetch,double mutagenic,glistener,immense+ random pump draw, that's mostly unstoppable on the play save path or chump block or a couple of specific cards
the other is the combination of inkmoth, with double protection, immense and double mutagenics, which again on the play is enough to get most decks
you could of course argue that technically they can be beaten but that would be pretty wasteful, in Modern highly linear/explosive decks will have a number of 'easy' wins over the course of a long tournament, this has always been the case and is not something Infect is alone at nor am i advocating any sort of ban or suggesting that the deck is broken
So... NOT hands that no deck is able to beat, because as you've admitted, there are absolutely ways to beat it. We're not even talking about anything rare or anything (like Disrupting Shoal), we're talking about commonly played maindeck spells.
An example of an actual unstoppable godhand would be an Amulet Bloom player having Simian Spirit Guide, Amulet of Vigor, Simic Growth Chamber, Summer Bloom, Hive Mind, and Summoner's Pact. The only thing I can think of that can stop that (when it's on the play) would be Disrupting Shoal which almost no one plays. But a hand is hardly unstoppable when it loses to the most commonly played removal spells in the format.
So... NOT hands that no deck is able to beat, because as you've admitted, there are absolutely ways to beat it. We're not even talking about anything rare or anything (like Disrupting Shoal), we're talking about commonly played maindeck spells.
An example of an actual unstoppable godhand would be an Amulet Bloom player having Simian Spirit Guide, Amulet of Vigor, Simic Growth Chamber, Summer Bloom, Hive Mind, and Summoner's Pact. The only thing I can think of that can stop that (when it's on the play) would be Disrupting Shoal which almost no one plays. But a hand is hardly unstoppable when it loses to the most commonly played removal spells in the format.
sometimes i'm not sure if you actually play Modern or if you're only in to argue,so linear decks in Modern have some busted hands, shocking!let's have a debate about it! what motivates you to make pointless posts like this i will never understand...
'Right now, I'm confident in saying that Infect is my favorite of the mainstream, well-accepted, powerful, popular decks in Modern. There are draws with Infect that are utterly busted, where you will generally beat nearly any opponent. At the same time, you can play a patient game, not going for the comborific win, but rather taking your time and going for the kill more at your own leisure, if you "go for it" at all. '
see the 'utterly busted' part
I agree. Using an example with 6 cards out of 7 to win on turn 1 with Bloom Titan is hardly evidence of anything. Simian Spirit Guide was commonly played as a 1 of in Bloom Titan near the end and I in fact played 0 (I didn't find it consistent enough) near the end.
Infect's hands can't possibly kill on turn 1. But on turn 2, there are a few combinations that can kill (involving Phyrexian spells and Become Immense or Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa and Mutagenic Growth) and a few turns later, they can have everything set up and ready to win through anything short of triple Path to Exile. I saw Infect win a game 2 through Serum Visions, 3 land, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Lightning Helix. I think it was turn 3 or 4 if I remember correctly.
I guess Bloom was stronger overall since it wasn't technically a "creature deck," but Infect has some tough to beat hands as well. I personally don't see a problem with a deck that has a Magic Christmasland hand that loses to no other deck. You will always have that in the format, but consistency is what gets consistent results. (I know this because poor play and variance has led to me having a slump the past month.)
*On a side note, I wish we had a resident "Frank Karsten" so that we could have stats of what percentage of the time those Bloom or Infect hands happen. People who talk about Bloom Titan winning on turn 1 or turn 2 don't want to listen to my turn 1 wins with Narset, Transcendant Master or Puresteel Paladin, but their Bloom pre-turn 3 wins are so consistent. I just don't buy it. With actual stats, we could put it to rest.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
*On a side note, I wish we had a resident "Frank Karsten" so that we could have stats of what percentage of the time those Bloom or Infect hands happen. People who talk about Bloom Titan winning on turn 1 or turn 2 don't want to listen to my turn 1 wins with Narset, Transcendant Master or Puresteel Paladin, but their Bloom pre-turn 3 wins are so consistent. I just don't buy it. With actual stats, we could put it to rest.
It's important to note, though, that a deck like Bloom had many interchangeable parts while other combos require specific cards. When any of 12 satisfies a condition for one deck and only any of 4 satisfies it for another deck, doing one calculation of one possible hand isn't enough. You'll need to take the average Bloom deck and determine how many cards are interchangeable or figure out exactly how many 7 card hands can win by a certain turn and do the calculation for each.
sometimes i'm not sure if you actually play Modern or if you're only in to argue,so linear decks in Modern have some busted hands, shocking!let's have a debate about it! what motivates you to make pointless posts like this i will never understand...
Because you made the claim that Infect had hands that "no deck" was able to beat. Then when I challenged you on it, you pointed to hands... that decks can beat with commonly played cards. How is this difficult to understand?
'Right now, I'm confident in saying that Infect is my favorite of the mainstream, well-accepted, powerful, popular decks in Modern. There are draws with Infect that are utterly busted, where you will generally beat nearly any opponent. At the same time, you can play a patient game, not going for the comborific win, but rather taking your time and going for the kill more at your own leisure, if you "go for it" at all. '
see the 'utterly busted' part
That does not back up your claim. Ignoring the fact that he says "NEARLY any opponent" rather than claiming it's ANY opponent. He also doesn't actually point out any of these hands, possibly because it would be easy to point out how they do not, in fact, beat nearly any opponent.
I agree. Using an example with 6 cards out of 7 to win on turn 1 with Bloom Titan is hardly evidence of anything. Simian Spirit Guide was commonly played as a 1 of in Bloom Titan near the end and I in fact played 0 (I didn't find it consistent enough) near the end.
I wasn't using that as evidence of anything. I was using it as an example of a hand that was, in fact, unbeatable on the play (unless you were using the fringe card Disrupting Shoal). Of course it was an absurdly rare hand; whether it was common or not was completely irrelevant to the point I was making. You basically spent your whole message arguing against something I never said or advocated.
do you even do anything in the modern part of those forums other than myopically focusing on single words or phrases which are never the most essential part of the post and almost always taken out of context?...
Um... yes?
you seldom have an ACTUAL point, most of the time you're wasting time pretending to be an 'alien' despite that you knew what the other person meant all along, sometimes i'm not sure whether you mean what you say or if it's some trolly game of yours
I'm not pretending to be an alien at all (where in the world did THAT come from?). You made a claim that NO DECK could beat those hands and I asked how that was true, and then your examples were things that decks can beat. I do not see how calling you out on your exaggeration is an issue. If you don't want to get called out on saying something that isn't true... then don't make false and exaggerated statements.
when this nut draw happens to you, good luck with it, especially against your Tron it's almost guaranteed T2 kill
Something (usually) being a guaranteed turn 2 kill against a particular deck (at least on the play, on the draw a Tron player has more answers like Spellskite, Pyroclasm, Sudden Shock) is very different from it being a guaranteed turn 2 kill against any deck.
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An example of an actual unstoppable godhand would be an Amulet Bloom player having Simian Spirit Guide, Amulet of Vigor, Simic Growth Chamber, Summer Bloom, Hive Mind, and Summoner's Pact. The only thing I can think of that can stop that (when it's on the play) would be Disrupting Shoal which almost no one plays. But a hand is hardly unstoppable when it loses to the most commonly played removal spells in the format.
I agree. Using an example with 6 cards out of 7 to win on turn 1 with Bloom Titan is hardly evidence of anything. Simian Spirit Guide was commonly played as a 1 of in Bloom Titan near the end and I in fact played 0 (I didn't find it consistent enough) near the end.
Infect's hands can't possibly kill on turn 1. But on turn 2, there are a few combinations that can kill (involving Phyrexian spells and Become Immense or Groundswell, Might of Old Krosa and Mutagenic Growth) and a few turns later, they can have everything set up and ready to win through anything short of triple Path to Exile. I saw Infect win a game 2 through Serum Visions, 3 land, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Lightning Helix. I think it was turn 3 or 4 if I remember correctly.
I guess Bloom was stronger overall since it wasn't technically a "creature deck," but Infect has some tough to beat hands as well. I personally don't see a problem with a deck that has a Magic Christmasland hand that loses to no other deck. You will always have that in the format, but consistency is what gets consistent results. (I know this because poor play and variance has led to me having a slump the past month.)
*On a side note, I wish we had a resident "Frank Karsten" so that we could have stats of what percentage of the time those Bloom or Infect hands happen. People who talk about Bloom Titan winning on turn 1 or turn 2 don't want to listen to my turn 1 wins with Narset, Transcendant Master or Puresteel Paladin, but their Bloom pre-turn 3 wins are so consistent. I just don't buy it. With actual stats, we could put it to rest.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)http://www.gatheringmagic.com/chrismascioli-100512-of-math-and-magic-part-1-the-hypergeometric-distribution/
or
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/127499-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the
or
http://diestoremoval.com/hypergeometric-distribution
It's important to note, though, that a deck like Bloom had many interchangeable parts while other combos require specific cards. When any of 12 satisfies a condition for one deck and only any of 4 satisfies it for another deck, doing one calculation of one possible hand isn't enough. You'll need to take the average Bloom deck and determine how many cards are interchangeable or figure out exactly how many 7 card hands can win by a certain turn and do the calculation for each.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
That does not back up your claim. Ignoring the fact that he says "NEARLY any opponent" rather than claiming it's ANY opponent. He also doesn't actually point out any of these hands, possibly because it would be easy to point out how they do not, in fact, beat nearly any opponent.
I'm not pretending to be an alien at all (where in the world did THAT come from?). You made a claim that NO DECK could beat those hands and I asked how that was true, and then your examples were things that decks can beat. I do not see how calling you out on your exaggeration is an issue. If you don't want to get called out on saying something that isn't true... then don't make false and exaggerated statements.
Something (usually) being a guaranteed turn 2 kill against a particular deck (at least on the play, on the draw a Tron player has more answers like Spellskite, Pyroclasm, Sudden Shock) is very different from it being a guaranteed turn 2 kill against any deck.