Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Do you enjoy having people to play against? Yes? Then this change affects you. There are only GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern now, which are few and far between, and as demand for Modern dries up the local stores are going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events. This is possibly the most consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming we want people to play against at our events), but of only speculative value in the upside, because we have no idea what they'll ban or unban in the future.
Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Do you enjoy having people to play against? Yes? Then this change affects you. There are only GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern now, which are few and far between, and as demand for Modern dries up the local stores are going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events. This is possibly the most consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming we want people to play against at our events), but of only speculative value in the upside, because we have no idea what they'll ban or unban in the future.
Not sure you can say there is speculative value to the upside and just assume the consequence of the downside. Your downside is just as speculative as his upside. Maybe pulling PT support leads to the format's crash. Or maybe Wizards replaces it with an extra GP on each continent in 2017. Maybe players don't want to play Modern because there is one less feature event for Modern. Or maybe players double-down on the format believing bans are less likely and their decks/investments will stay safe and be supported for longer. It's all speculative at this point.
I'm willing to give Wizards the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. I'll revisit this, favorably or unfavorably, when they announce the 2017 GP schedule. For now, I'm going to read in this announcement a nuanced understanding of Modern that Wizards previously lacked (or didn't act on).
I'm hoping there will still be something beyond just GPs for modern players to aspire to / enjoy watching. Maybe I am in the minority, but the Modern PT is what inspired me to become a competitive player (even though I was strictly playing standard at the time). I'm fine with the elimination of it from the PT though, especially if it leads to another high profile event that can be divorced from set releases (one can dream anyway).
I'm hoping there will still be something beyond just GPs for modern players to aspire to / enjoy watching. Maybe I am in the minority, but the Modern PT is what inspired me to become a competitive player (even though I was strictly playing standard at the time). I'm fine with the elimination of it from the PT though, especially if it leads to another high profile event that can be divorced from set releases (one can dream anyway).
I'd love a Modern Champs or a similar event. Some kind of invitation-based tournament with a wider net than just pros. Get a GP T16? T32? SCG Open T32? Come to the Champs!
I'll settle for an extra GP per continent for now.
Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Do you enjoy having people to play against? Yes? Then this change affects you. There are only GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern now, which are few and far between, and as demand for Modern dries up the local stores are going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events. This is possibly the most consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming we want people to play against at our events), but of only speculative value in the upside, because we have no idea what they'll ban or unban in the future.
Trying to wrap my head around the imagined scenario where everyone who was playing modern and invested into modern cards suddenly go: "Oh, im not going to the store to play modern, because there is no longer a pro tour."
Because that's exactly what needs to happen for there to be nobody to play against at modern events.
Take a good long look at yourself: are you going to stop playing modern because there isn't a pro tour? Are your hundreds/thousands worth of modern staples suddenly worthless? Is the game suddenly no longer fun?
The only thing that has changed is the removal of an incentive to keep modern "fresh and exciting for the camera", along with "XYZ deck took the top 3 spots at the last 4 PTs, in the interest of Modern diversity, your deck's key card is now banned."
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Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Do you enjoy having people to play against? Yes? Then this change affects you. There are only GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern now, which are few and far between, and as demand for Modern dries up the local stores are going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events. This is possibly the most consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming we want people to play against at our events), but of only speculative value in the upside, because we have no idea what they'll ban or unban in the future.
Not sure you can say there is speculative value to the upside and just assume the consequence of the downside. Your downside is just as speculative as his upside. Maybe pulling PT support leads to the format's crash. Or maybe Wizards replaces it with an extra GP on each continent in 2017. Maybe players don't want to play Modern because there is one less feature event for Modern. Or maybe players double-down on the format believing bans are less likely and their decks/investments will stay safe and be supported for longer. It's all speculative at this point.
I'm willing to give Wizards the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. I'll revisit this, favorably or unfavorably, when they announce the 2017 GP schedule. For now, I'm going to read in this announcement a nuanced understanding of Modern that Wizards previously lacked (or didn't act on).
My post was tongue-in-cheek and not really serious.
The only actual point I'd want to make to cpfusion's post is that new players watching pros play a format on the largest stage in the game is a large draw to that stage's format(s) and dropping a format from that stage does have real downside in bringing new players to the format. I don't know how much of a downside that is, nor do I know if it outweighs anything. I was really just having a go at his post more than anything.
Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Do you enjoy having people to play against? Yes? Then this change affects you. There are only GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern now, which are few and far between, and as demand for Modern dries up the local stores are going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events. This is possibly the most consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming we want people to play against at our events), but of only speculative value in the upside, because we have no idea what they'll ban or unban in the future.
Not sure you can say there is speculative value to the upside and just assume the consequence of the downside. Your downside is just as speculative as his upside. Maybe pulling PT support leads to the format's crash. Or maybe Wizards replaces it with an extra GP on each continent in 2017. Maybe players don't want to play Modern because there is one less feature event for Modern. Or maybe players double-down on the format believing bans are less likely and their decks/investments will stay safe and be supported for longer. It's all speculative at this point.
I'm willing to give Wizards the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. I'll revisit this, favorably or unfavorably, when they announce the 2017 GP schedule. For now, I'm going to read in this announcement a nuanced understanding of Modern that Wizards previously lacked (or didn't act on).
My post was tongue-in-cheek and not really serious.
The only actual point I'd want to make to cpfusion's post is that new players watching pros play a format on the largest stage in the game is a large draw to that stage's format(s) and dropping a format from that stage does have real downside in bringing new players to the format. I don't know how much of a downside that is, nor do I know if it outweighs anything. I was really just having a go at his post more than anything.
oh, OK. I thought u were actually serious.
I don't believe anyone new to magic actually starts from modern. they likely begin at limited/standard, where they WILL invariably learn about modern, because they WILL invariably ask: uh so what happens to my cards after rotation?
I highly doubt the sudden loss of the PT will result in any lower supply of players to the format. In fact, I believe Standard players who previously avoided Modern and its horribly fickle ban-list may actually now consider holding on to their rotated cards and playing ported versions of their decks.
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Did any of you go to the Pro Tour? No? Then this change doesn't affect you. There are still plenty of GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern, and local stores aren't going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events because of the Pro Tour. This is possibly the least consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming most of us don't go to Pro Tours regularly), but hugely impactful in the upside, because it (should) mean no more random shake up bans for the sake of the PT.
Do you enjoy having people to play against? Yes? Then this change affects you. There are only GPs and SCG Opens that feature Modern now, which are few and far between, and as demand for Modern dries up the local stores are going to suddenly stop hosting their weekly events. This is possibly the most consequential decision they could make to regular players in terms of downside (because I'm assuming we want people to play against at our events), but of only speculative value in the upside, because we have no idea what they'll ban or unban in the future.
Not sure you can say there is speculative value to the upside and just assume the consequence of the downside. Your downside is just as speculative as his upside. Maybe pulling PT support leads to the format's crash. Or maybe Wizards replaces it with an extra GP on each continent in 2017. Maybe players don't want to play Modern because there is one less feature event for Modern. Or maybe players double-down on the format believing bans are less likely and their decks/investments will stay safe and be supported for longer. It's all speculative at this point.
I'm willing to give Wizards the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. I'll revisit this, favorably or unfavorably, when they announce the 2017 GP schedule. For now, I'm going to read in this announcement a nuanced understanding of Modern that Wizards previously lacked (or didn't act on).
My post was tongue-in-cheek and not really serious.
The only actual point I'd want to make to cpfusion's post is that new players watching pros play a format on the largest stage in the game is a large draw to that stage's format(s) and dropping a format from that stage does have real downside in bringing new players to the format. I don't know how much of a downside that is, nor do I know if it outweighs anything. I was really just having a go at his post more than anything.
oh, OK. I thought u were actually serious.
I don't believe anyone new to magic actually starts from modern. they likely begin at limited/standard, where they WILL invariably learn about modern, because they WILL invariably ask: uh so what happens to my cards after rotation?
I highly doubt the sudden loss of the PT will result in any lower supply of players to the format. In fact, I believe Standard players who previously avoided Modern and its horribly fickle ban-list may actually now consider holding on to their rotated cards and playing ported versions of their decks.
Yeah sorry if the sarcasm wasn't obvious. I thought the mimicry would standout.
I think some players come to Modern specifically because they see Pros play it. I don't know how many so don't want to make a huge deal out of this, but I'm certain that some players do. They idolize Reid Duke or LSV, see them on deck XYZ and want to try it out. Maybe they're new players, maybe they're not. I'm sure some people who have played the game for a while never wanted to get into Modern until they saw a Pro they respect on a spicy brew.
The point is really that there's an unknown amount of draw to any format because of the large stage and Modern no longer has that now.
I did pick up on the mimicry, I however interpreted that as simply mocking while refuting the other party, which I am sometimes wont to do (I am trying to change that).
Hmmm I played MTG during the Ice Age and it was more like, joining the other kids than any higher pressure. My friends who play likewise got interested via me. IOW its mostly a word of mouth... as a niche hobby i dont really feel that difference over here (in Asia). Maybe in the states its a bigger thing.
The ones with the most influence on planeswalker recruitment are probably the local game stores and magic players ourselves. Do we get people interested? Do we care to talk about our hobby to others? Do the shops invite the warhammer, star wars and other game fans to try their hand at a draft?
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I feel like if WOTC could straight erase every other format except Standard/Limited from existence with no repercussions, they would do it instantly.
I don't think it would be that easy. Modern is still quite popular and I believe it will continue to be despite the fact they abandoned PT's. Lots of people would lost with Modern gone as many people enjoy playing it.
Actually, Modern is the "illusion". WotC can't annihilate older formats completely because they need some reason to convince people to join Standard with "Your cards that rotated out can be played in an older format like Modern". They did it once technically with Vintage/Legacy, but back then they made quite the number of mistakes (the Reserved List, the sheer difference in power between cards resulted in Vintage having to exist anyway) and then they probably found it unsustainable and swapped in for Modern.
While we are going to be a lot more stubborn and persistent lot than Legacy will ever be (mainly because we have a way larger base supply), what worries me is if WotC doesn't find the correct reprint formula for the format (them being too scared after the Chronicles-List result) over too long a time, we would actually degrade (at a slower rate, but still) the same way Legacy did.
Given printing Logistics, there are only two ways to ensure that Modern (or any non-rotating format not named EDH) survives:
1) Consciously recognize the mistakes of the past and base the power level of Standard around it so that reprints in Standard sets are a lot more frequent. One problem with the issue of "You can keep your rotated cards for a non-rotating format" is that people enter and leave the game at different times and as a result it is very easy for any given group to miss out on a component of a non-rotating format when it was in rotation at any given time. However, that means power creep, no doubt a word R&D fears so much. AR's message that it's Modern's Power Level that should accommodate R&D's work for Standard also heavily implies this is a path they will not take down the route.
2) Drop all print runs for supplementary products and combine them together for a "Magic Masters" set that features cards for all formats from non-Standard sets across the board. A combined print run should be sufficient to at least bring the print run to nearly the Standard-Level ones. By featuring cards for all formats (Modern, Legacy, Vintage, EDH), it also decreases the "as-fan" of getting a card for an individual format and players are less likely to just rip open packs for their preferred format. The most important thing is to price them similarly with Standard boosters. The first run might still have people rushing and raising prices, but as long as it utilizes the combined print run, plus the incentive for an individual format isn't that high, the prices would eventually drop back and stabilize... which is important for them as well because this allows them to create the Limited Environment they want to create and have people play. Hardly anyone played much MM/MM2 because of the price/value discrepancies - following Standard prices plus the "reduced incentive of ripping packs for any individual format" is going to raise the demand for limited much better. It's a win-win situation. Sure, we're probably getting Goyf stuck at Mythic forever, but it's still a vast improvement - pretty sure if MM2 packs cost the same as SOI packs, people would still be drafting them now.
I feel Modern will degrade faster than Legacy if not strongly supported because of the difference in card quantity and quality. Rogues are much more likely to succeed in Legacy and the power level difference in tiers is so little that we don't even bother to make tier lists. It doesn't matter if it's technically tier 2.5 or something, Burn will **** you up if you misplay or draw unluckyly.
In contrast, if your local Modern meta is competitive you better play a proven Tier 1 deck. Sometimes rogues do well but it has more to do with anti-megagaming than good deckbuilding. I won a couple leagues with 8Rack when the meta was RestoKiki, Scapeshift and Twin because discard is practically build to beat blue decks. As soon as Burn got Eidolon and Tron got Ugin, the deck was dead. In the end without hardcore reprints and the introduction of some much needed open-answer non-creature spells, it will be a game of wallets.
This is a huge 'screw you' to all non american players, as the pptqs and rptqs we the most significant events open to everyone and now they are gone
well, technically they are not gone, but all sentences beginning with technically are bs , who will host a modern pptq for a standard rptq and pt and who will play, when the best thing you can aspire for is to sell your victory to the 2nd guy for boosters?
Modern became poorer by this decision and few people are happy with it, without pathetic selfish reasons or missing the big picture
If Wizards doesn't follow through by increasing the number of non-PT Modern events, I will agree with you. If they add GPs or other Modern tournaments to make up the gap, then I will disagree. I'm hoping Wizards will add GPs world-wide to give more players a chance to play and enjoy Modern, and we'll know for sure over the summer when they release the 2017 schedule. If they do, then this was an excellent decision that both stabilizes Modern and returns it to its mission while not depleting the format's playerbase. If they don't, it will be bad news for the format.
This is a huge 'screw you' to all non american players, as the pptqs and rptqs we the most significant events open to everyone and now they are gone
well, technically they are not gone, but all sentences beginning with technically are bs , who will host a modern pptq for a standard rptq and pt and who will play, when the best thing you can aspire for is to sell your victory to the 2nd guy for boosters?
Modern became poorer by this decision and few people are happy with it, without pathetic selfish reasons or missing the big picture
If Wizards doesn't follow through by increasing the number of non-PT Modern events, I will agree with you. If they add GPs or other Modern tournaments to make up the gap, then I will disagree. I'm hoping Wizards will add GPs world-wide to give more players a chance to play and enjoy Modern, and we'll know for sure over the summer when they release the 2017 schedule. If they do, then this was an excellent decision that both stabilizes Modern and returns it to its mission while not depleting the format's playerbase. If they don't, it will be bad news for the format.
Sounds like a good approach.
That said, I don't have much confidence they'll make any changes down stream (lower than PT tournaments). I don't see what incentive they have for doing so and because their PT decision hinged on feedback from pro players (at least partially), I assume they have a sour taste in their mouths for Modern as a high-level tournament format. My pessimistic outlook is that over the course of a year or two Modern will be relegated to FNM-level at its highest, with only a cursory GP or two per year. I'll be glad to be wrong, though.
I suppose for me the decision itself boils down to this.
1. Deciding to "shake up" the PT with bans/unbans is a proactive decision WOTC can make or not make whenever they want.
2. Stripping Modern out of the PT unequivocally means the format is not showcased at the highest level.
Everybody is happy about #1 leaving as a consideration, but the same result regarding bans/unbans could easily have happened without taking Modern out of the PT. It's just a proactive decision. There's no going back on #2 (at least I doubt they'll go back on it twice).
I suppose for me the decision itself boils down to this.
1. Deciding to "shake up" the PT with bans/unbans is a proactive decision WOTC can make or not make whenever they want.
2. Stripping Modern out of the PT unequivocally means the format is not showcased at the highest level.
Everybody is happy about #1 leaving as a consideration, but the same result regarding bans/unbans could easily have happened without taking Modern out of the PT. It's just a proactive decision. There's no going back on #2 (at least I doubt they'll go back on it twice).
Considering eternal formats should be a continuous refinement of established strategies over time, maybe with a few new ones every once in a while, the Pro Tour did a horrible job showcasing the format at the "highest level."
What the Pro Tour gave us was this: "What can pros figure out in a few weeks in order to break the format and/or hyper-metagame the field of other pros and teams now that XYZ is banned." That does not showcase the format. That showcases the abilities of pros to adapt to a constantly new and unknown meta (something that eternal formats should not be about). The reason Twin won a lot was because in unsure, volatile new metas, it was a great go-to. And with a shake up ban happening before every Modern Pro Tour, if you were a pro, would you rather spend hundreds of hours designing and testing new decks in an unclear meta? Or sleeve up something like Twin and have a pretty good chance regardless?
This decision is probably the best thing to happen to Modern in a long time.
I suppose for me the decision itself boils down to this.
1. Deciding to "shake up" the PT with bans/unbans is a proactive decision WOTC can make or not make whenever they want.
2. Stripping Modern out of the PT unequivocally means the format is not showcased at the highest level.
Everybody is happy about #1 leaving as a consideration, but the same result regarding bans/unbans could easily have happened without taking Modern out of the PT. It's just a proactive decision. There's no going back on #2 (at least I doubt they'll go back on it twice).
But remember their goals for a PT. As Forsythe said, "The first is that we want to reward good drafting, innovative deck building, and tight gameplay in unestablished environments. Second, we want to highlight the newest card set." Modern is never going to be an unestablished environment without shakeup bans. Modern is also unlikely to highlight the newest card set, or at least much less likely than Standard. If Wizards keeps PTs the way they are, then they can't just decide to leave Modern untouched for each PT. To do so means one of their four PTs per year is not going to accomplish its stated goal. Unless they change the PT's goals, which I really don't see them doing any time soon, then Modern had to go from the PT circuit. Wizards couldn't decide to both keep Modern as-is and decide to keep the PT as-is. One had to change.
I feel like if WOTC could straight erase every other format except Standard/Limited from existence with no repercussions, they would do it instantly.
I don't think it would be that easy. Modern is still quite popular and I believe it will continue to be despite the fact they abandoned PT's. Lots of people would lost with Modern gone as many people enjoy playing it.
But the message quoted specified that if they could do it with no repercussions, they would do it. Pointing out repercussions is ignoring the argument because the whole thing rests on the hypothetical of there not being repercussions.
Whelp thats all folks. Considering modern is the best format and it seems like everyone I know only stomachs standard and throws a deck together at the last minute if they make an invitational or a tour that requires it and that draft is only mildly interesting oddity compared to most constructed, I think this is a terrible move. The rotation of the banned list kept it interesting and as mentioned it let players use their collections that they have worked hard on. It proves that wizards doesnt care about the player base and only the almighty dollar. And why shouldnt they, i guess? Theyre a business after all. It definitely leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. I dont think that eldrazi saw much standard play, so we can logically conclude that the set was made more for modern. In that case they realized the negative impact the set would have on the modern meta. The question can then be asked, did they do it to sabatoge modern and get enough people to leave the format so there wouldnt be as much resistance to killing it? Bad move wizards, bad move
Preface, I don't think twin should have been banned, they should have just banned exarch. This wasn't even that hard to figure out, all you needed to do was take a 1 or 2% off the decks win rate and exposing it to blowout by bolt would have done it.
That being said it's still not a big deal the combo was basicly a trun 3 kill because of the flash mechanic and the format is better with out it warping game play and deck building.
However, that won't matter since the format will just die soon. Lets be honest if Modern PT's don't promote MTG well enough for WOTC, then why bother with GP's even in the long run???
Modern and EDH are always the most popular/favorite formats when people make polls, so why piss on either?
There is no way around the fact that if there is not a promotional tour associated with a format the format is dead in the long run.
So where does that leave modern and it's fans? I don't know, I'm going to sit on my modern cards on MODO in anticipation of Peak Modern in the next couple years when it becomes clear that WOTC isn't reprinting and the prices go nuts.
Modern players, in my opinion, want a format where their entire deck is not invalidated every 12 months, cough... standard.
Modern players want a format where they can tune a deck over years, generally we don't have the time to brew, buy and assemble decks every time standard rotates.
Modern players want a format where their knowledge of the meta and format over all contributes to their ability to win matches.
Modern is the most affordable format in the long run since you can build your deck over years and constantly tune, tweak and add to it, plus there where some reprints.
Pro's complaining about the modern pro tour was always pathetic. The pros that played modern on the regular always did very well, the pros that just wanted to pick up a standard deck (dumbed down magic)with relatively little practice and have a roll at 40k hated it because they would get housed by people who actually played the modern format.
WOTC, in a sense, knows it's market I guess, this caters to kiddies who like to crack packs and pro's who want to show up at a standard PT after cramming for a week with a comparable shot at winning to most of the field.
Think about it, no one would ever be like... hey here is a Texas hold em tournament I'll just go sit in this house and play my friends for a week then i'll be more or less on par with the field no matter how much prep they did.
THIS IS WHY THE SO CALLED "PRO" COMMUNITY HAS LOBBIED TO KILL MODERN, they can not be competitive if they don't put in the time to this great format, so they want it dead.
Then they cry variance, or match up, give me a break the top 32 at the modern PT has many people who consistently do well year to year.
Instead of responding to each of the alarmist posts individually, I'll just make a thread-wide statement instead.
People need to move away from this bizarre explanation that dropping the PT was a pro-driven move. Were the pros probably involved in it? I'm sure they were. But is it something that is contrary to player desires? Absolutely not. Players have constantly, and very harshly, complained about bans since the format's start. If the Pro Tour is to be appropriate for Modern given the tournament's function and structure, Modern needs shakeup bans. Players hated those bans and hated the pall of uncertainty and instability that surrounded it, so by removing Modern from the PT circuit, Wizards is very deliberately trying to restore the average player's confidence in Modern's longstanding stability. I don't understand why so many people look past this and leap to the conclusion of a Wizards and pro cabal to kill Modern. It's just such an uncritical, black and white opinion that is neither in dialogue with Wizards' statements on the event, nor the response players have had to Modern bans over the years.
Of course, Wizards will need to keep Modern going strong with more event support, particularly at the GP level. But if they follow through with that, which I'm optimistic they will, then this change is a huge net positive for Modern. It allows the format to return to its mission and move away from the artificial, ban-induced rotations players hated.
Where are the reprints going to come from? Goyf and Liliana to $400 each. The fact that they can't reel those prices in and haven't even tried with one of them.
The Pro's get the blame because the community did not ask for the PT to go away, they got it put back on the schedule. Then the Pro's cried and cried.
There was really nothing wrong with the eldrazi PT, it was fun to see LSV and company run out a new brew that smash the field. The error was not fixing the format the next week, or at least before the GP's.
How *****ty must it have been for all the normal players to go to those GP's, spend good money $100's, and just get rolled by the 8 sol ring decks?? That was not a twin banning or a format problem that was WOTC sitting on their thumbs to sell more Thought knot seers and reality smashers at the expense of their players.
I disagree with the last point, wizards does not NEED to keep modern strong they, as a company, will be just fine with limited and standard and they know it.
Where are the reprints going to come from? Goyf and Liliana to $400 each. The fact that they can't reel those prices in and haven't even tried with one of them.
They will just keep reprinting them in EMA and MM style sets. I doubt Goyf falls below $100, but neither Lily nor Goyf will rise much more as long as Wizards keeps reprinting them at mythic in a bunch of products. That makes a profitable product for Wizards and keeps prices reasonable enough for players. A lot of people on the forums whine and moan about Jund prices, but it's somehow still the most-played deck in the format. Obviously the prices aren't stopping a huge segment from playing it.
The Pro's get the blame because the community did not ask for the PT to go away, they got it put back on the schedule. Then the Pro's cried and cried.
Players wanted it back on the schedule but didn't realize that would mean more bans. This has been documented and discussed to death. It put Wizards in a position where they would need to either keep banning cards to ensure Modern was PT-appropriate, or they needed to remove Modern from the PT to stop the bans. Players would have been upset with both, and I'm happy Wizards took the road that was more aligned with Modern's mission.
I disagree with the last point, wizards does not NEED to keep modern strong they, as a company, will be just fine with limited and standard and they know it.
You misunderstand. They don't "need" to do it abstractly. I'm saying that, if this decision is to be a good one, Wizards will have to follow through with certain steps. If they don't, then the decision was a bad one. If they do, then it's a good one. We'll need to wait and see how it turns out, but this ridiculous panic-mongering needs to stop. It's one thing to criticize elements of Wizards' policy with some supporting evidence. It's another to accuse them of trying to kill the format. It's the same kind of uncritical and shortsighted argument that would have seen the Eldrazi cards emergency banned after the PTs, which would have been a disaster for Modern in the long-run as many players and Wizards staff have already discussed.
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I do not want to play Standard at all, it's not for me.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Not sure you can say there is speculative value to the upside and just assume the consequence of the downside. Your downside is just as speculative as his upside. Maybe pulling PT support leads to the format's crash. Or maybe Wizards replaces it with an extra GP on each continent in 2017. Maybe players don't want to play Modern because there is one less feature event for Modern. Or maybe players double-down on the format believing bans are less likely and their decks/investments will stay safe and be supported for longer. It's all speculative at this point.
I'm willing to give Wizards the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing. I'll revisit this, favorably or unfavorably, when they announce the 2017 GP schedule. For now, I'm going to read in this announcement a nuanced understanding of Modern that Wizards previously lacked (or didn't act on).
I'd love a Modern Champs or a similar event. Some kind of invitation-based tournament with a wider net than just pros. Get a GP T16? T32? SCG Open T32? Come to the Champs!
I'll settle for an extra GP per continent for now.
Trying to wrap my head around the imagined scenario where everyone who was playing modern and invested into modern cards suddenly go: "Oh, im not going to the store to play modern, because there is no longer a pro tour."
Because that's exactly what needs to happen for there to be nobody to play against at modern events.
Take a good long look at yourself: are you going to stop playing modern because there isn't a pro tour? Are your hundreds/thousands worth of modern staples suddenly worthless? Is the game suddenly no longer fun?
The only thing that has changed is the removal of an incentive to keep modern "fresh and exciting for the camera", along with "XYZ deck took the top 3 spots at the last 4 PTs, in the interest of Modern diversity, your deck's key card is now banned."
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
The only actual point I'd want to make to cpfusion's post is that new players watching pros play a format on the largest stage in the game is a large draw to that stage's format(s) and dropping a format from that stage does have real downside in bringing new players to the format. I don't know how much of a downside that is, nor do I know if it outweighs anything. I was really just having a go at his post more than anything.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
oh, OK. I thought u were actually serious.
I don't believe anyone new to magic actually starts from modern. they likely begin at limited/standard, where they WILL invariably learn about modern, because they WILL invariably ask: uh so what happens to my cards after rotation?
I highly doubt the sudden loss of the PT will result in any lower supply of players to the format. In fact, I believe Standard players who previously avoided Modern and its horribly fickle ban-list may actually now consider holding on to their rotated cards and playing ported versions of their decks.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I think some players come to Modern specifically because they see Pros play it. I don't know how many so don't want to make a huge deal out of this, but I'm certain that some players do. They idolize Reid Duke or LSV, see them on deck XYZ and want to try it out. Maybe they're new players, maybe they're not. I'm sure some people who have played the game for a while never wanted to get into Modern until they saw a Pro they respect on a spicy brew.
The point is really that there's an unknown amount of draw to any format because of the large stage and Modern no longer has that now.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Hmmm I played MTG during the Ice Age and it was more like, joining the other kids than any higher pressure. My friends who play likewise got interested via me. IOW its mostly a word of mouth... as a niche hobby i dont really feel that difference over here (in Asia). Maybe in the states its a bigger thing.
The ones with the most influence on planeswalker recruitment are probably the local game stores and magic players ourselves. Do we get people interested? Do we care to talk about our hobby to others? Do the shops invite the warhammer, star wars and other game fans to try their hand at a draft?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Actually, Modern is the "illusion". WotC can't annihilate older formats completely because they need some reason to convince people to join Standard with "Your cards that rotated out can be played in an older format like Modern". They did it once technically with Vintage/Legacy, but back then they made quite the number of mistakes (the Reserved List, the sheer difference in power between cards resulted in Vintage having to exist anyway) and then they probably found it unsustainable and swapped in for Modern.
While we are going to be a lot more stubborn and persistent lot than Legacy will ever be (mainly because we have a way larger base supply), what worries me is if WotC doesn't find the correct reprint formula for the format (them being too scared after the Chronicles-List result) over too long a time, we would actually degrade (at a slower rate, but still) the same way Legacy did.
Given printing Logistics, there are only two ways to ensure that Modern (or any non-rotating format not named EDH) survives:
1) Consciously recognize the mistakes of the past and base the power level of Standard around it so that reprints in Standard sets are a lot more frequent. One problem with the issue of "You can keep your rotated cards for a non-rotating format" is that people enter and leave the game at different times and as a result it is very easy for any given group to miss out on a component of a non-rotating format when it was in rotation at any given time. However, that means power creep, no doubt a word R&D fears so much. AR's message that it's Modern's Power Level that should accommodate R&D's work for Standard also heavily implies this is a path they will not take down the route.
2) Drop all print runs for supplementary products and combine them together for a "Magic Masters" set that features cards for all formats from non-Standard sets across the board. A combined print run should be sufficient to at least bring the print run to nearly the Standard-Level ones. By featuring cards for all formats (Modern, Legacy, Vintage, EDH), it also decreases the "as-fan" of getting a card for an individual format and players are less likely to just rip open packs for their preferred format. The most important thing is to price them similarly with Standard boosters. The first run might still have people rushing and raising prices, but as long as it utilizes the combined print run, plus the incentive for an individual format isn't that high, the prices would eventually drop back and stabilize... which is important for them as well because this allows them to create the Limited Environment they want to create and have people play. Hardly anyone played much MM/MM2 because of the price/value discrepancies - following Standard prices plus the "reduced incentive of ripping packs for any individual format" is going to raise the demand for limited much better. It's a win-win situation. Sure, we're probably getting Goyf stuck at Mythic forever, but it's still a vast improvement - pretty sure if MM2 packs cost the same as SOI packs, people would still be drafting them now.
In contrast, if your local Modern meta is competitive you better play a proven Tier 1 deck. Sometimes rogues do well but it has more to do with anti-megagaming than good deckbuilding. I won a couple leagues with 8Rack when the meta was RestoKiki, Scapeshift and Twin because discard is practically build to beat blue decks. As soon as Burn got Eidolon and Tron got Ugin, the deck was dead. In the end without hardcore reprints and the introduction of some much needed open-answer non-creature spells, it will be a game of wallets.
If Wizards doesn't follow through by increasing the number of non-PT Modern events, I will agree with you. If they add GPs or other Modern tournaments to make up the gap, then I will disagree. I'm hoping Wizards will add GPs world-wide to give more players a chance to play and enjoy Modern, and we'll know for sure over the summer when they release the 2017 schedule. If they do, then this was an excellent decision that both stabilizes Modern and returns it to its mission while not depleting the format's playerbase. If they don't, it will be bad news for the format.
That said, I don't have much confidence they'll make any changes down stream (lower than PT tournaments). I don't see what incentive they have for doing so and because their PT decision hinged on feedback from pro players (at least partially), I assume they have a sour taste in their mouths for Modern as a high-level tournament format. My pessimistic outlook is that over the course of a year or two Modern will be relegated to FNM-level at its highest, with only a cursory GP or two per year. I'll be glad to be wrong, though.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
1. Deciding to "shake up" the PT with bans/unbans is a proactive decision WOTC can make or not make whenever they want.
2. Stripping Modern out of the PT unequivocally means the format is not showcased at the highest level.
Everybody is happy about #1 leaving as a consideration, but the same result regarding bans/unbans could easily have happened without taking Modern out of the PT. It's just a proactive decision. There's no going back on #2 (at least I doubt they'll go back on it twice).
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Considering eternal formats should be a continuous refinement of established strategies over time, maybe with a few new ones every once in a while, the Pro Tour did a horrible job showcasing the format at the "highest level."
What the Pro Tour gave us was this: "What can pros figure out in a few weeks in order to break the format and/or hyper-metagame the field of other pros and teams now that XYZ is banned." That does not showcase the format. That showcases the abilities of pros to adapt to a constantly new and unknown meta (something that eternal formats should not be about). The reason Twin won a lot was because in unsure, volatile new metas, it was a great go-to. And with a shake up ban happening before every Modern Pro Tour, if you were a pro, would you rather spend hundreds of hours designing and testing new decks in an unclear meta? Or sleeve up something like Twin and have a pretty good chance regardless?
This decision is probably the best thing to happen to Modern in a long time.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
But remember their goals for a PT. As Forsythe said, "The first is that we want to reward good drafting, innovative deck building, and tight gameplay in unestablished environments. Second, we want to highlight the newest card set." Modern is never going to be an unestablished environment without shakeup bans. Modern is also unlikely to highlight the newest card set, or at least much less likely than Standard. If Wizards keeps PTs the way they are, then they can't just decide to leave Modern untouched for each PT. To do so means one of their four PTs per year is not going to accomplish its stated goal. Unless they change the PT's goals, which I really don't see them doing any time soon, then Modern had to go from the PT circuit. Wizards couldn't decide to both keep Modern as-is and decide to keep the PT as-is. One had to change.
Preface, I don't think twin should have been banned, they should have just banned exarch. This wasn't even that hard to figure out, all you needed to do was take a 1 or 2% off the decks win rate and exposing it to blowout by bolt would have done it.
That being said it's still not a big deal the combo was basicly a trun 3 kill because of the flash mechanic and the format is better with out it warping game play and deck building.
However, that won't matter since the format will just die soon. Lets be honest if Modern PT's don't promote MTG well enough for WOTC, then why bother with GP's even in the long run???
Modern and EDH are always the most popular/favorite formats when people make polls, so why piss on either?
There is no way around the fact that if there is not a promotional tour associated with a format the format is dead in the long run.
So where does that leave modern and it's fans? I don't know, I'm going to sit on my modern cards on MODO in anticipation of Peak Modern in the next couple years when it becomes clear that WOTC isn't reprinting and the prices go nuts.
Modern players, in my opinion, want a format where their entire deck is not invalidated every 12 months, cough... standard.
Modern players want a format where they can tune a deck over years, generally we don't have the time to brew, buy and assemble decks every time standard rotates.
Modern players want a format where their knowledge of the meta and format over all contributes to their ability to win matches.
Modern is the most affordable format in the long run since you can build your deck over years and constantly tune, tweak and add to it, plus there where some reprints.
Pro's complaining about the modern pro tour was always pathetic. The pros that played modern on the regular always did very well, the pros that just wanted to pick up a standard deck (dumbed down magic)with relatively little practice and have a roll at 40k hated it because they would get housed by people who actually played the modern format.
WOTC, in a sense, knows it's market I guess, this caters to kiddies who like to crack packs and pro's who want to show up at a standard PT after cramming for a week with a comparable shot at winning to most of the field.
Think about it, no one would ever be like... hey here is a Texas hold em tournament I'll just go sit in this house and play my friends for a week then i'll be more or less on par with the field no matter how much prep they did.
THIS IS WHY THE SO CALLED "PRO" COMMUNITY HAS LOBBIED TO KILL MODERN, they can not be competitive if they don't put in the time to this great format, so they want it dead.
Then they cry variance, or match up, give me a break the top 32 at the modern PT has many people who consistently do well year to year.
RIP MODERN
People need to move away from this bizarre explanation that dropping the PT was a pro-driven move. Were the pros probably involved in it? I'm sure they were. But is it something that is contrary to player desires? Absolutely not. Players have constantly, and very harshly, complained about bans since the format's start. If the Pro Tour is to be appropriate for Modern given the tournament's function and structure, Modern needs shakeup bans. Players hated those bans and hated the pall of uncertainty and instability that surrounded it, so by removing Modern from the PT circuit, Wizards is very deliberately trying to restore the average player's confidence in Modern's longstanding stability. I don't understand why so many people look past this and leap to the conclusion of a Wizards and pro cabal to kill Modern. It's just such an uncritical, black and white opinion that is neither in dialogue with Wizards' statements on the event, nor the response players have had to Modern bans over the years.
Of course, Wizards will need to keep Modern going strong with more event support, particularly at the GP level. But if they follow through with that, which I'm optimistic they will, then this change is a huge net positive for Modern. It allows the format to return to its mission and move away from the artificial, ban-induced rotations players hated.
Where are the reprints going to come from? Goyf and Liliana to $400 each. The fact that they can't reel those prices in and haven't even tried with one of them.
The Pro's get the blame because the community did not ask for the PT to go away, they got it put back on the schedule. Then the Pro's cried and cried.
There was really nothing wrong with the eldrazi PT, it was fun to see LSV and company run out a new brew that smash the field. The error was not fixing the format the next week, or at least before the GP's.
How *****ty must it have been for all the normal players to go to those GP's, spend good money $100's, and just get rolled by the 8 sol ring decks?? That was not a twin banning or a format problem that was WOTC sitting on their thumbs to sell more Thought knot seers and reality smashers at the expense of their players.
I disagree with the last point, wizards does not NEED to keep modern strong they, as a company, will be just fine with limited and standard and they know it.
They will just keep reprinting them in EMA and MM style sets. I doubt Goyf falls below $100, but neither Lily nor Goyf will rise much more as long as Wizards keeps reprinting them at mythic in a bunch of products. That makes a profitable product for Wizards and keeps prices reasonable enough for players. A lot of people on the forums whine and moan about Jund prices, but it's somehow still the most-played deck in the format. Obviously the prices aren't stopping a huge segment from playing it.
Players wanted it back on the schedule but didn't realize that would mean more bans. This has been documented and discussed to death. It put Wizards in a position where they would need to either keep banning cards to ensure Modern was PT-appropriate, or they needed to remove Modern from the PT to stop the bans. Players would have been upset with both, and I'm happy Wizards took the road that was more aligned with Modern's mission.
You misunderstand. They don't "need" to do it abstractly. I'm saying that, if this decision is to be a good one, Wizards will have to follow through with certain steps. If they don't, then the decision was a bad one. If they do, then it's a good one. We'll need to wait and see how it turns out, but this ridiculous panic-mongering needs to stop. It's one thing to criticize elements of Wizards' policy with some supporting evidence. It's another to accuse them of trying to kill the format. It's the same kind of uncritical and shortsighted argument that would have seen the Eldrazi cards emergency banned after the PTs, which would have been a disaster for Modern in the long-run as many players and Wizards staff have already discussed.