Like many, I've been putting a lot of thought into the Thoptercombo. While most people have been looking to Jeskia, Esper, or UW/UB builds, I've been tossing around the idea of a Bant build. Why Bant? Why to utilize Glittering Wish! I figured that running the Wish would allow us to run "seven" Thopter Foundry, along with a wish board to take out all of the enchantment based hate cards. I figured a small green splash consisting of Noble Hierarch and Glittering Wish would do the trick.
What does everyone else think? I know many are riding the Gifts Ungiven train right now, but I feel that both combos are weak to grave hate. Any wishboard ideas? Obviously you'd want something like Qasali Pridemage to take care of Stony Silence/Rest in Peace/Illness in the Ranks/Leyline of the Void... man is there a lot of hate out there. Any cheap multicolored Affinity hate? Lets get these ideas flowing!
This is an idea I was also contemplating because I love thopter/sword and glittering wish. However I believe playing gifts along side glittering wish for several reasons. Number 1 being it increases consistency and diversity. Because now I have X thopter foundries where x is equal to the number of physical copies in my deck plus the quantity of glittering wishes and gifts ungiven. Additionally gift piles get better with more tutors you have. So now you can set up piles like {thopter, sword, wish, muddle which} or {loam, academy, thopter, sword} the former will usually result in a thopter+wish but that still leaves you with the combo while also gives you a tutor if there is another threat that needs answered. Best of all this eliminates the need for excess combo pieces in the main which gives use even more room for stronger gift piles.
Also splashing for noble hierarch isn't what you should be after something like life from the loam is much better suited as it provides ca, doesn't turn on dead removal in your opponents hand, and stated above allows gift piles that result in the combo. Although I understand you were just trying to find reasons to validate the green splash.
It wasn't just to validate the green splash, but to also provide some amount of ramp, and to help with the casting cost for the wish board. Right now with the artifact package, the combo, counter magic all competing for space, my land base has shrunk. Below is the main deck I've proxied up, still trying to figure out a wish board;
I've 16 artifacts+Academy Ruins for Thirst for Knowledge fuel, 8 mana rocks/dorks, and Snapcaster Mage to help shore up the small spell selection. I'm probably going too deep on the green mana sources, but it's a first draft, and I'd rather have too many than too few. I'm not sure on running both Wish and Gifts as I feel that you'll end up with more tutors than targets. I'm unsure that you'd have enough room for both packages.
Like many, I've been putting a lot of thought into the Thoptercombo. While most people have been looking to Jeskia, Esper, or UW/UB builds, I've been tossing around the idea of a Bant build. Why Bant? Why to utilize Glittering Wish! I figured that running the Wish would allow us to run "seven" Thopter Foundry, along with a wish board to take out all of the enchantment based hate cards. I figured a small green splash consisting of Noble Hierarch and Glittering Wish would do the trick.
What does everyone else think? I know many are riding the Gifts Ungiven train right now, but I feel that both combos are weak to grave hate. Any wishboard ideas? Obviously you'd want something like Qasali Pridemage to take care of Stony Silence/Rest in Peace/Illness in the Ranks/Leyline of the Void... man is there a lot of hate out there. Any cheap multicolored Affinity hate? Lets get these ideas flowing!
Seems too color intensive to work to be honest. My advice on to people who want thopter combo to work is this: play the combo with a degenerate combo or lock piece that isn't hit by artifact hate. For that reason I can see thopter sword working in Blue moon because blue moon locks people out and the combo helps them get there against aggro.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
It wasn't just to validate the green splash, but to also provide some amount of ramp, and to help with the casting cost for the wish board. Right now with the artifact package, the combo, counter magic all competing for space, my land base has shrunk. Below is the main deck I've proxied up, still trying to figure out a wish board;
I've 16 artifacts+Academy Ruins for Thirst for Knowledge fuel, 8 mana rocks/dorks, and Snapcaster Mage to help shore up the small spell selection. I'm probably going too deep on the green mana sources, but it's a first draft, and I'd rather have too many than too few. I'm not sure on running both Wish and Gifts as I feel that you'll end up with more tutors than targets. I'm unsure that you'd have enough room for both packages.
Can you explain to me your ideology on noble hierarch? It just doesn't make logical sense to me. It's apparent you want to accelerate right? Yet you already have better sources in your manarocks because those at least survive two purposes: 1. They accelerate you into the phase of the game where your cards should be strong than your opponents. 2) Because they're artifacts they can be pitched to thirst for knowledge, thus they have a tendency to be decent as a game progresses.
Now I know you understand that because you even mentioned it in your post. What I'm trying to understand is why noble hierarch out of all your choices? Are you folding to the idea that you must be doing something at every point on a curve? If you must be doing something on turn one why not play search for tomorrow? Hear me out it allows you to do something on your first turn as would noble, but as the game progresses this card can at least be played to reduce the number of dead draws in your deck. There is also edge of autumn which can be played as ramp early on but can be cycled away for a potentially better card.
There is also the appeal that using mana-rocks will allow you to tutor up a supreme verdict and use it without losing any of your progress. Honestly you don't need as much ramp as you have
In my list I've accepted the role of tap-out control where my deck is better suited vs creature based strategies where I have plenty of wraths and locks against creatures in the form of shackles and miren. But that isn't to say I don't have game against spell oriented decks where I have infiniteish land destruction with ghost quarter and life from the loam.
So for glittering thopter sword, in comparison to muddle the mixture, you:
Add another color to your deck
Lose the utility of a counterspell
Take up side board space
Lose the ability to tutor for the sword or other main board 2 drops.
To gain:
1 mana cheaper
Toolbox of other multicolor stuff in SB.
Effectively pre-sided for game 1.
Not have to side in some things g2/g3 but still run 4 copies without diluting plan A
I considered something like this briefly. There's a serious concern that it's too slow, as I think that's the big reason Glittering Wish has seen minimal play in Modern, but there could be a build out there.
If there really is enough compensation that you can run Bant Thopters, you do also gain access to Wargate as a possible tutor for Sword as well (or for Foundry, of course), either out of the side as a Wish target to very slowly assemble the combo or as a maindeck option. You really could end up with a lot of different tutors in this type of deck if you wanted- question is, can they be used effectively, or are they too slow and clunky?
I like this, but I'd consider adding more dorks--probably 6 or 7, then reintroducing the gifts package. Being able to glitter and gifts early or with additional mana is cool. You may also be able to run a bring to light somewhere. In a way its like that LSV list that was BTL gifts--but you've got this great glittering package too.
To note, nobles out and a single thopter with a sword is a 3/4 flier, which is kinda hard to kill for a lot of decks.
wear // tear might be decent in the sideboard. I'm pretty sure it counts as multi-coloured for glittering wish. The problem cards you mention are all enchantments, so you can use tear for W. It also can at least be a shatter against affinity, but maybe that is just too clunky.
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What does everyone else think? I know many are riding the Gifts Ungiven train right now, but I feel that both combos are weak to grave hate. Any wishboard ideas? Obviously you'd want something like Qasali Pridemage to take care of Stony Silence/Rest in Peace/Illness in the Ranks/Leyline of the Void... man is there a lot of hate out there. Any cheap multicolored Affinity hate? Lets get these ideas flowing!
Cheeri0sXWU
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UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Also splashing for noble hierarch isn't what you should be after something like life from the loam is much better suited as it provides ca, doesn't turn on dead removal in your opponents hand, and stated above allows gift piles that result in the combo. Although I understand you were just trying to find reasons to validate the green splash.
1 Talisman of Unity
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
3 Hangarback Walker
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
4 Path to Exile
2 Academy Ruins
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
I've 16 artifacts+Academy Ruins for Thirst for Knowledge fuel, 8 mana rocks/dorks, and Snapcaster Mage to help shore up the small spell selection. I'm probably going too deep on the green mana sources, but it's a first draft, and I'd rather have too many than too few. I'm not sure on running both Wish and Gifts as I feel that you'll end up with more tutors than targets. I'm unsure that you'd have enough room for both packages.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Seems too color intensive to work to be honest. My advice on to people who want thopter combo to work is this: play the combo with a degenerate combo or lock piece that isn't hit by artifact hate. For that reason I can see thopter sword working in Blue moon because blue moon locks people out and the combo helps them get there against aggro.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Can you explain to me your ideology on noble hierarch? It just doesn't make logical sense to me. It's apparent you want to accelerate right? Yet you already have better sources in your manarocks because those at least survive two purposes: 1. They accelerate you into the phase of the game where your cards should be strong than your opponents. 2) Because they're artifacts they can be pitched to thirst for knowledge, thus they have a tendency to be decent as a game progresses.
Now I know you understand that because you even mentioned it in your post. What I'm trying to understand is why noble hierarch out of all your choices? Are you folding to the idea that you must be doing something at every point on a curve? If you must be doing something on turn one why not play search for tomorrow? Hear me out it allows you to do something on your first turn as would noble, but as the game progresses this card can at least be played to reduce the number of dead draws in your deck. There is also edge of autumn which can be played as ramp early on but can be cycled away for a potentially better card.
There is also the appeal that using mana-rocks will allow you to tutor up a supreme verdict and use it without losing any of your progress. Honestly you don't need as much ramp as you have
4 thirst for knowledge
4 glittering wish
4 azorius signet
3 path to exile
3 muddle the mixture
3 gifts ungiven
1 tezzeret the seeker
1 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
1 day of judgment
1 engineered explosives
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 vedalken shackles
1 life from the loam
1 condemn
1 cyclonic rift
4 misty rainforest
2 celestial colonnade
1 hallowed fountain
1 breeding pool
1 temple garden
1 tolaria west
1 ghost quarter
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Academy Ruins
1 horizon canopy
1 plains
1 forest
6 island
1 bant charm (super versatile card that should see more play)
1 harmonic sliver (general answer to enchantments and artifacts)
1 Narset Transcendent (wincon plus ca vs control)
1 trygon predator (affinity hate)
1 fracturing gust (card has a sweet textbox)
1 Dragonlord Dromoka (wincon vs control and can really end dragged out game verses burn)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (out to jund, other sigarda maybe fine as well)
1 detention sphere (out to permanents)
1 kitchen finks (if burn gets a creature centric hand this can null 2/3rds of a spell twice and prevent combat)
1 supreme verdict (more access to wraths and allows more gift piles)
1 meddling mage (prevent combo)
1 thopter foundry (whole reason to play bant thopter)
1 heroes' reunion (early stall vs burn)
1 wheel of sun and moon (grave based combo decks)
1 worm harvest (end game against control and grindy decks)
In my list I've accepted the role of tap-out control where my deck is better suited vs creature based strategies where I have plenty of wraths and locks against creatures in the form of shackles and miren. But that isn't to say I don't have game against spell oriented decks where I have infiniteish land destruction with ghost quarter and life from the loam.
Add another color to your deck
Lose the utility of a counterspell
Take up side board space
Lose the ability to tutor for the sword or other main board 2 drops.
To gain:
1 mana cheaper
Toolbox of other multicolor stuff in SB.
Effectively pre-sided for game 1.
Not have to side in some things g2/g3 but still run 4 copies without diluting plan A
If there really is enough compensation that you can run Bant Thopters, you do also gain access to Wargate as a possible tutor for Sword as well (or for Foundry, of course), either out of the side as a Wish target to very slowly assemble the combo or as a maindeck option. You really could end up with a lot of different tutors in this type of deck if you wanted- question is, can they be used effectively, or are they too slow and clunky?
To note, nobles out and a single thopter with a sword is a 3/4 flier, which is kinda hard to kill for a lot of decks.
Oh somone said wargate