I figured this could deserve it's own thread. Below is the Interview Brian David-Marshal did with head of Magic R&D Aaron Forsythe at Grand Prix detroit, transcribed from the twitch-replay to the best of my ability:
BDM- I'm standing here with Senior Director of Magic R&D Aaron Forsythe.That's a lot of words to get out there. Senior Director of Magic R&D. What does that mean Aaron.
AF- I am in charge of all the people that make the game. So the Game designers, developers, editors, and the creative people who do all of the art and story.
BDM - OK, so that's everything. So ultimately, the buck stops here.
AF - That's right, no card gets printed, no story is written,that I have not at least tacidly approved.
BDM - Ok, so, so we're coming out of Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch, aahhh, the Eldrazi have obviously made a huge, eh, foray into the Modern metagame at that event.
What is the defcon level for Magic R&D about the dominance of the Eldrazi at that tournament.
AF- Oh at the end of the pro tour?
BDM - At the end of the pro tour.
AF - I'd say it was about 3, so definnitely eye-opening, surprising..It's something we knew we would have to keep an eye on. Considering just how few
of the players showed up with the deck and how dominant it turned out to be, that's always worth paying attention to but we figured we'd have plenty of events
between then and when we would actually have to make another decision about what we wanted to do to the banned and restricted list. So we, like, as usual, we're gonna
let that all play out and make our decisions at the end.
BDM - We had a couple of open modern events and then this weekend was three Modern Grand Prix', Melbourne, Bologna and here in Detroit, 5000 players plus,
across the three events, I'm gonna give you some numbers, ok.
AF - I know the numbers
BDM- You know the numbers, well.
AF - give the audience the numbers.,
BDM - Bologna. Top 100 players 39% of the field, 5 Eldrazi decks in the top 8. two Blue white eldrazi decks in the finals right now as we're recording this
so a UW Eldrazi deck is gonna win there. Melbourne, 45% of the top 100 decks were Eldrazi, 3 Eldrazi decks in the top 8, 2 UW Eldrazi decks in the finals
UW Eldrazi obviously wins. Here in Detroit, 47% of the top 100 decks are Eldrazi. So I have to ask you here on Sunday at Grand Prix Detroit:
what's the defcon level now, for Modern.
AF - One. One, we can't ignore it. This is as bad as a format, bad, meaning as ubiquitous as one deck has been in a format in a long, long time, and
we we're hoping it wouldn't come to this but I think we're gonna have to definitely take some executive action with the next B&R list about this deck.
BDM - So what's the timeline for something like that. What, you know, when is that next B&R list, and what do you guys do back in Renton to sort of prepare
yourself for something like that.
AF - So we update the B&R list with each new set, so it'll go into effect when Shadows over Innistrad goes into Standard, rotates into all formats. Which is
And we'll announce that the Monday after the prerelease, whatever decisions we make about cards coming on or off any of the banned & restricted lists
for any of the formats.
Back at the office, we've already been obviously been having the conversation since the Pro Tour, and we will be having a meeting this week, when
I get back there, and we'll have this data, have all the data from everything that's been done on Magic Online since the Pro Tour happened, results from the
opens, everything. All in front of us. I'm here actually to just try and get human input on the situation. Like I can look at the data, i get that for free
basically, but I wanted to hear what people thought I guess. Is this OK, what would you do, what do you think we should be doing about the format
I got a lot of great input from people here. Everyone is very level-headed, you know, coming off my interactions on Twitter and what not I was like
"They're going to kill me". I'm just gonna walk in the building and they're gonna kill me. But that's not been the case at all. People still love
Modern, people have generally been happy with what we've been doing in general, happy with our communication. Everyone's got their pet card they wanna
see unbanned or how to take care of this deck or whatever we're gonna do to fix it, so bringing that to the table as well, all of the opinions I've
gathered, just to make sure that we ultimately, you know, the best thing for Magic is happy players, and that's what we're gonna try to accomplish
with this next round.
BDM-So there's obviously a couple of targets you, cards that would have a target on their backs, you guys like, try out, I know, I know Modern is
famously, you know, not a format that always gets playtested when a set's being designed but when you're making these kind of decisions do you test
out what happens with the fates of different cards?
AF - Eh, no. Not normally, although I think in this case we may be able to do that. I mean, our goal is not going to be "Nuke the Eldrazi deck from existence".
I think that's the wrong... but we could do that, we coul pick multiple cards, make sure none of this no version of this shows up
BDM- but we know nuking this deck from orbit is the only way to be safe, right?
AF- I dont't wanna..No. Well, I don't think the goal is to necessarily make sure nothing like this ever happens again, I think this is just gonna happen when we make new magic
cards but I would like to see some version of the Eldrazi deck be part of Modern. I think, there are good play patterns involved here, it is after all
kind of a efficient creature deck and you know, it's just too efficient right now, ah, there's a couple of way's we could approach that, and I think we
could actually test some of those paths, becasue our goal is to make sure the deck sticks around. Ah, at least that's my goal, we'll see what the rest
of the guys back at the office think but like banning something like Birthing Pod, I mean there's nothing to test, we know that deck's going away, ah, but here we
have a few different paths we could take, and I mean, I'm leaning heavily towards something to be banned from that deck but again, nothing's been decided yet.
So, you're not gonna trap me into ..
BDM- no no, i'm actually not i'm actually asking i'm not trying to trap you I'm actualla asking about process, I'm just curious how that works.
AF- I'm not accusing you of anything, but
BDM -[whispers to camera] I'm trying to trap him
AF Anyway, nothing's been decided. Normally the process does not involve testing. People ask me, people have asked me a lot, you know, this has the
emergence of this deck want to test modern more, when you're making new cards?
And honestly, the return on that investement is just never gonna be great for us. Considering that
only 7% of the Pro Tour field found the good version of this deck, and they put more hours into it than we ever could. The odds of us having
productive playtesting that would have found just how powerful this deck was, in the amount of time we could have dedicated to it you know is just...
And this is once in five years that something this disruptive has happened to this format, I think we're just gonna have to stick to our normal processes
when it comes to making cards, try to trust our gust, there's a couple of more questions we know we can ask ourselves before we print things it may tie
into older fast mana and what not, but eh, the process has been working fine, maybe up until this point, and I expect it's gonna continue to work fine
past this point.
BDM - so just quickly I just wanna ask you one question looking forward, we got, we've been doing shadows over Innistrad we've been taking a look at some
of these new cards this weekend. What does the rotation look like for Standard, just cause it's kinda unusual and I just wanted to kinda... What's gonna rotate
out when Shadows over Innistrad comes in
AF - Ah, oh, well so. This is the first time we're gonna have a rotation at this point of the year, and when Shadows come out, Khans and Fate Reforged
are gonna rotate out of Standard. So since we're gonna be in this kinda 18 months life span instead of 24 month life span, so we're gonna have twice a year, and
this shadows marks the first time it's happening in the spring.
BDM- So, exciting times in Standard, you know we're gonna maybe we get to Spain we're gonna see some pretty wildly new decks
AF-Yeah I mean the change to what you can do with your mana alone because of the fetchlands rotating out is humongous so, you know the paradigm
of what decks look like and how much restraint you have to have when choosing what cards you want to play is gonna be SO different going forward that
..I think it's actually gonna be very refreshing for people, I think this current mana base the deckbuilding being so wide open is a really difficult puzzle
and I think we need some a little more traditional looking Magic decks for the next six months.
BDM - And you know, I'm really just very concerned about drafting the new set am I, am I gonna be able to make a lot of spiders?
AF-Ah, not exactly in the same way we had the spider thing going in the last Innistrad but there are plenty of shenanigans decks that hopefully people
will enjoy discovering as that set plays out.
BDM-I can't wait. Than you so much Aaron, I really appreciate your time and your transparency on the subject here of the Eldrazi and Modern at
Grand Prix Detroit.
I agree that Modern can survive this deck as long as we hose some of the 'fast' mana base. Any thoughts on the possibility of a Restricted Eye of Ugin?
I agree that Modern can survive this deck as long as we hose some of the 'fast' mana base. Any thoughts on the possibility of a Restricted Eye of Ugin?
I think it's more likely that both Eye and Eldrazi Temple get banned than that WotC decides to complicate Modern with a Restricted list.
I figured this could deserve it's own thread. Below is the Interview Brian David-Marshal did with head of Magic R&D Aaron Forsythe at Grand Prix detroit, transcribed from the twitch-replay to the best of my ability:
BDM- but we know nuking this deck from orbit is the only way to be safe, right?
AF- I dont't wanna..No. Well, I don't think the goal is to necessarily make sure nothing like this ever happens again, I think this is just gonna happen when we make new magic
cards but I would like to see some version of the Eldrazi deck be part of Modern.
Miller: [after watching the final crew log video PT and GP Top 8s] We're leaving.
Weir: No, we can't leave. Our orders are specific.
Miller: Rescue the format, salvage what's left of the players. The format is dead, doctor. Your Eldrazi killed them.
Weir: We came here to do a job--
Miller: We're aborting, doctor! Stark, download the files from the Wizards' computers.
Weir: Captain... don't do this.
Miller: It's done.
Weir: What about my Eldrazi? You can't just leave her!
Miller: I have no intention of leaving her, doctor. I will take Modern to a safe distance and then I'll launch tact missiles at the Eldrazi until I'm satisfied she's vaporized. F*** this deck.
I figured this could deserve it's own thread. Below is the Interview Brian David-Marshal did with head of Magic R&D Aaron Forsythe at Grand Prix detroit, transcribed from the twitch-replay to the best of my ability:
BDM- but we know nuking this deck from orbit is the only way to be safe, right?
AF- I dont't wanna..No. Well, I don't think the goal is to necessarily make sure nothing like this ever happens again, I think this is just gonna happen when we make new magic
cards but I would like to see some version of the Eldrazi deck be part of Modern.
Miller: [after watching the final crew log video PT and GP Top 8s] We're leaving.
Weir: No, we can't leave. Our orders are specific.
Miller: Rescue the format, salvage what's left of the players. The format is dead, doctor. Your Eldrazi killed them.
Weir: We came here to do a job--
Miller: We're aborting, doctor! Stark, download the files from the Wizards' computers.
Weir: Captain... don't do this.
Miller: It's done.
Weir: What about my Eldrazi? You can't just leave her!
Miller: I have no intention of leaving her, doctor. I will take Modern to a safe distance and then I'll launch tact missiles at the Eldrazi until I'm satisfied she's vaporized. F*** this deck.
I figured this could deserve it's own thread. Below is the Interview Brian David-Marshal did with head of Magic R&D Aaron Forsythe at Grand Prix detroit, transcribed from the twitch-replay to the best of my ability:
BDM- but we know nuking this deck from orbit is the only way to be safe, right?
AF- I dont't wanna..No. Well, I don't think the goal is to necessarily make sure nothing like this ever happens again, I think this is just gonna happen when we make new magic
cards but I would like to see some version of the Eldrazi deck be part of Modern.
Miller: [after watching the final crew log video PT and GP Top 8s] We're leaving.
Weir: No, we can't leave. Our orders are specific.
Miller: Rescue the format, salvage what's left of the players. The format is dead, doctor. Your Eldrazi killed them.
Weir: We came here to do a job--
Miller: We're aborting, doctor! Stark, download the files from the Wizards' computers.
Weir: Captain... don't do this.
Miller: It's done.
Weir: What about my Eldrazi? You can't just leave her!
Miller: I have no intention of leaving her, doctor. I will take Modern to a safe distance and then I'll launch tact missiles at the Eldrazi until I'm satisfied she's vaporized. F*** this deck.
I have no idea what's going on here ...
It's a loose quote from Event Horizon, a space horror movie from the 90s. Was the first thing that came to mind watching the interview and I thought it was hilarious. Deep cuts.
The interview is reminiscent of the public statements that WotC was making about CawBlade in 2010, although it's very compressed compared to that. WotC claimed for quite a long period of time that CawBlade wasn't broken and that there were answers to it if people just looked hard enough and then attendance at FNM's and ultimately larger events forced their hand and they went to DefCon 1 very quickly and banned several cards.
It's surprising that they didn't learn enough from that series of events to pre-emptively emergency ban at least Eye of Ugin here. My guess is that attendance has not declined at this point and Affinity looks pretty strong against Eldrazi and they're just going to weather the storm the way they did right up until Batterskull was printed last time around. They'll do the ban on whatever as the next set releases and just hope the meta isn't 50/50 UW Eldrazi before that. I'm thinking they've got 50/50 odds on that at this point.
very interesting interview. I can't help thinking eye is going to be the card being banned. sorry tron players, there were going to be some kind of casualties in order to take down the eldrazi. banning both lands seems a bit overkill, but who knows. I didn't expect such gruesome statistics from these GPs but these numbers don't lie, something has got to change.
supposing both lands did get the axe, would people simply play some kind of trondrazi? or is GR tron just the best tron variant without including many eldrazi?
im glad aaron had a decent time out and about, from his twitter you'd think he was going to get tarred and feathered before they eviscerated him.
I agree that Modern can survive this deck as long as we hose some of the 'fast' mana base. Any thoughts on the possibility of a Restricted Eye of Ugin?
Restriction is not good idea imo. Whatever it will be it needs to be banned, not restricted. This would only mess up thing in Modern and cause even bigger problems.
If it's restricted to 1 copy, then you replace the other slots with Expedition Map and throw in a few Crucible of Worlds. Tutor it up, then replay it if destroyed. Doesn't really solve anything.
I agree that Modern can survive this deck as long as we hose some of the 'fast' mana base. Any thoughts on the possibility of a Restricted Eye of Ugin?
Restriction is not good idea imo. Whatever it will be it needs to be banned, not restricted. This would only mess up thing in Modern and cause even bigger problems.
If it's restricted to 1 copy, then you replace the other slots with Expedition Map and throw in a few Crucible of Worlds. Tutor it up, then replay it if destroyed. Doesn't really solve anything.
I agree that Modern can survive this deck as long as we hose some of the 'fast' mana base. Any thoughts on the possibility of a Restricted Eye of Ugin?
Restriction is not good idea imo. Whatever it will be it needs to be banned, not restricted. This would only mess up thing in Modern and cause even bigger problems.
If it's restricted to 1 copy, then you replace the other slots with Expedition Map and throw in a few Crucible of Worlds. Tutor it up, then replay it if destroyed. Doesn't really solve anything.
Other than turning a turn 3 deck into a turn 6 deck, you mean?
I agree that Modern can survive this deck as long as we hose some of the 'fast' mana base. Any thoughts on the possibility of a Restricted Eye of Ugin?
Restriction is not good idea imo. Whatever it will be it needs to be banned, not restricted. This would only mess up thing in Modern and cause even bigger problems.
If it's restricted to 1 copy, then you replace the other slots with Expedition Map and throw in a few Crucible of Worlds. Tutor it up, then replay it if destroyed. Doesn't really solve anything.
Other than turning a turn 3 deck into a turn 6 deck, you mean?
The problem with Eye isn't just explosive starts. It's also explosive mid games and inevitable late games. Regardless, the idea of a restricted card is just silly and will never be implemented in Modern. It is only in effect in one format (Vintage) and only so that it allows people to play their $5,000 cards that are banned in every other format.
cfusionpm is right, restriction only really exists nowadays so that there can be a semblance of balance enforced in Vintage while staying true to the format's mission statement of being able to play with everything (excluding ante and dexterity cards).
The idea of using it on other formats is so obsolete it's rather laughable.
I think Temple is a bigger offender than Eye. While Eye allows some explosive starts, which can be mitigated by Pyroclasm like effects, Temple allows the truly broken 'fast mana' because Eye can't stack. If Eye goes, it will be replaced by Vesuva and it will slow the deck down by a turn. If Temple goes, only fast starts are possible and the deck will be easier to deal with since it's a lot more difficult to Mulligan to find one of 4 cards than one of 8.
I think Temple is a bigger offender than Eye. While Eye allows some explosive starts, which can be mitigated by Pyroclasm like effects, Temple allows the truly broken 'fast mana' because Eye can't stack. If Eye goes, it will be replaced by Vesuva and it will slow the deck down by a turn. If Temple goes, only fast starts are possible and the deck will be easier to deal with since it's a lot more difficult to Mulligan to find one of 4 cards than one of 8.
I also agree with a Temple ban but if temple goes and if it is replaced by Vesuva they will be out multiple turns, not just 1. For example, a hand with 2x Adarkar Wastes and a Vesuva is AWFUL, and a hand with temple and Vesuva is still only a turn 3 Thought Knot Seer which is much less impressive. Vesuva entering tapped slows that deck down sooooo much, and they only have one real target that they want to copy with it which is going to make it pretty shaky.
I think Temple is a bigger offender than Eye. While Eye allows some explosive starts, which can be mitigated by Pyroclasm like effects, Temple allows the truly broken 'fast mana' because Eye can't stack.
You can't have multiple copies of Eye but it does "stack" in the sense that you get the discount every time you cast an Eldrazi.
I played Eldrazi for awhile before the PT and then i dropped it at its height after day 1 of the PT. But i definitely think Temple needs to be banned as well. Eldrazi post ban without Eye and just using Temple is still a really good deck. It could just be a midrange deck or maybe make Trondrazi a deck (Tron with Temples?). If they want Eldrazi to remain a deck then they will ban Eye. If they want to nuke it from existence its both. I dont think they will hit both. I think that it will get banned the next time they print something that makes Eldrazi op again.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
The interview is reminiscent of the public statements that WotC was making about CawBlade in 2010, although it's very compressed compared to that. WotC claimed for quite a long period of time that CawBlade wasn't broken and that there were answers to it if people just looked hard enough and then attendance at FNM's and ultimately larger events forced their hand and they went to DefCon 1 very quickly and banned several cards.
It's surprising that they didn't learn enough from that series of events to pre-emptively emergency ban at least Eye of Ugin here. My guess is that attendance has not declined at this point and Affinity looks pretty strong against Eldrazi and they're just going to weather the storm the way they did right up until Batterskull was printed last time around. They'll do the ban on whatever as the next set releases and just hope the meta isn't 50/50 UW Eldrazi before that. I'm thinking they've got 50/50 odds on that at this point.
The deck as is survives one block cycle, rather than an entire year. What he wants to do is maintain as leader that he is on the case and is thinking about Modern as a format and that they do care as one of the faces of Magic. He also wants to maintain regular order and establish a relationship with deck builders. That you can break the format, but you cannot break it forever. The game is not where it was twenty years ago with Urza Block in which an entire block destroyed the entire game.
Today, the deck will send ripple effects into the game for several years, but will not destroy Magic. Bloom Titan and Twin were both broken for an entire year. This will be a much smaller cycle. There is a process, they have an idea what they're doing and that's what they want to maintain is order. The breakers get their day in the sun and get to profit, while people get a chance to battle against it and it creates some interesting stories.
If you look at the Eldrazi Processor deck threads and the amount of interest that the deck created by several players, you will see a series of decks that were refined and built. The downside, though, is that Processor is dying a slow death and aggro and midrange versions will live on unless if a type of Processor survives. Eldrazi will hopefully remain tier 1-2, but will not devastate the format as it used to.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life is a beautiful engineer, yet a brutal scientist.
The interview is reminiscent of the public statements that WotC was making about CawBlade in 2010, although it's very compressed compared to that. WotC claimed for quite a long period of time that CawBlade wasn't broken and that there were answers to it if people just looked hard enough and then attendance at FNM's and ultimately larger events forced their hand and they went to DefCon 1 very quickly and banned several cards.
It's surprising that they didn't learn enough from that series of events to pre-emptively emergency ban at least Eye of Ugin here. My guess is that attendance has not declined at this point and Affinity looks pretty strong against Eldrazi and they're just going to weather the storm the way they did right up until Batterskull was printed last time around. They'll do the ban on whatever as the next set releases and just hope the meta isn't 50/50 UW Eldrazi before that. I'm thinking they've got 50/50 odds on that at this point.
The deck as is survives one block cycle, rather than an entire year. What he wants to do is maintain as leader that he is on the case and is thinking about Modern as a format and that they do care as one of the faces of Magic. He also wants to maintain regular order and establish a relationship with deck builders. That you can break the format, but you cannot break it forever. The game is not where it was twenty years ago with Urza Block in which an entire block destroyed the entire game.
Today, the deck will send ripple effects into the game for several years, but will not destroy Magic. Bloom Titan and Twin were both broken for an entire year. This will be a much smaller cycle. There is a process, they have an idea what they're doing and that's what they want to maintain is order. The breakers get their day in the sun and get to profit, while people get a chance to battle against it and it creates some interesting stories.
If you look at the Eldrazi Processor deck threads and the amount of interest that the deck created by several players, you will see a series of decks that were refined and built. The downside, though, is that Processor is dying a slow death and aggro and midrange versions will live on unless if a type of Processor survives. Eldrazi will hopefully remain tier 1-2, but will not devastate the format as it used to.
Oh please stop pretending that Bloom or Twin ever even came to close to the current Eldrazi. I don't think Amulet Bloom ever had more than 10% metashare and I think Twin had something like 15% at its peak? How is this comparable to the 40+% of Eldrazi?
They do not even test bans. Like, we are playing a format they completely neglected to manage by anything other than gut feel and a need to have a 'FRESH' meta which they barely understand.
They do not even test bans. Like, we are playing a format they completely neglected to manage by anything other than gut feel and a need to have a 'FRESH' meta which they barely understand.
That's our reality.
Polemics doesn't win the debate, especially with me.
Right now, we know a few things:
1. Urza Block almost killed Magic because the deck was so efficient that a game was decided on a dice roll
2. Bloom was a difficult to play deck that with time refined itself over a year to go from a backwater combo deck to a real threat once it was in the hands of a Pro. It was a difficult to play against, that while requiring skill and specific cards to know how to sequence. The statistics bore out that it's win percentage was higher than average and destroyed value. Given enough time, it would have caught on more if it wasn't the fear of an impending ban and that Americans tend to play aggro or midrange decks over combo or at least combo similar to infect decks.
The deck had a year in part because it was still under the radar, once the radar came it was under a microscope.
3. Twin was a police deck, that gradually became "Twin+" and shifted out Jeskai and Scapeshift decks out of the game. It had 2 years or so, and became a staple of rotating decks with Tron and a few others. However, because of the refinement of the deck and slowly bleeding diversity it was banned.
4. Pod was gaining market share because it was an easy deck to build and play, but boring to play against and difficult to stop. Finally died especially with the rise of Collected Company.
5. Eldrazi is unique in that it started out as Processor that evolved into Aggro roughly a month ago. Eldrazi "Menace" was known as early as late December for those of us who were early adopters. The new shift was aggro when someone cracked the deck into aggro mode. There were a few variants like a BGX Eldrazi deck.
The current Eldrazi Deck is an aberration, but does not compare to Urza Block's pervasiveness or power level making that Urza Block deck a complete abomination that almost consumed and ate Magic alive. This isn't apologetics, it's analyzing history and consistency in branding and design and rules set expectations.
In terms of everything you're angry about the Eldrazi deck being everywhere. I understand that, because I have been there as well at different times during Magic. Have you played Standard during the original Mirrodin block with Affinity when it was actually Affinity? That was a nightmare too, that obliterated any concept of Magic in standard for quite sometime. Eldrazi is more similar to Pod and Bloom, it's interactive in weird ways but not enough so that people can't really stop it comfortably without huge new shifts in their game play.
The interview is reminiscent of the public statements that WotC was making about CawBlade in 2010, although it's very compressed compared to that. WotC claimed for quite a long period of time that CawBlade wasn't broken and that there were answers to it if people just looked hard enough and then attendance at FNM's and ultimately larger events forced their hand and they went to DefCon 1 very quickly and banned several cards.
It's surprising that they didn't learn enough from that series of events to pre-emptively emergency ban at least Eye of Ugin here. My guess is that attendance has not declined at this point and Affinity looks pretty strong against Eldrazi and they're just going to weather the storm the way they did right up until Batterskull was printed last time around. They'll do the ban on whatever as the next set releases and just hope the meta isn't 50/50 UW Eldrazi before that. I'm thinking they've got 50/50 odds on that at this point.
The deck as is survives one block cycle, rather than an entire year. What he wants to do is maintain as leader that he is on the case and is thinking about Modern as a format and that they do care as one of the faces of Magic. He also wants to maintain regular order and establish a relationship with deck builders. That you can break the format, but you cannot break it forever. The game is not where it was twenty years ago with Urza Block in which an entire block destroyed the entire game.
Today, the deck will send ripple effects into the game for several years, but will not destroy Magic. Bloom Titan and Twin were both broken for an entire year. This will be a much smaller cycle. There is a process, they have an idea what they're doing and that's what they want to maintain is order. The breakers get their day in the sun and get to profit, while people get a chance to battle against it and it creates some interesting stories.
If you look at the Eldrazi Processor deck threads and the amount of interest that the deck created by several players, you will see a series of decks that were refined and built. The downside, though, is that Processor is dying a slow death and aggro and midrange versions will live on unless if a type of Processor survives. Eldrazi will hopefully remain tier 1-2, but will not devastate the format as it used to.
Oh please stop pretending that Bloom or Twin ever even came to close to the current Eldrazi. I don't think Amulet Bloom ever had more than 10% metashare and I think Twin had something like 15% at its peak? How is this comparable to the 40+% of Eldrazi?
It doesn't matter gameshare, what matters is that there was a process and that as the decks became more and more of a threat and a spotlight was placed under them there was a course of action followed.
Pod, I believe, took too long to ban. Amulet Bloom lasted a year for a deck that not until the end of its life cycle started to catch on more, but remained difficult to play and with that one Mod's statistics website even stated that Bloom had a high win percentage than normal for a deck and that nerfing the deck was consistent.
If we're to look at something, we need to talk about a few concepts:
1. Adoption cycle
2. Marketing and communications
3. Establishing expectations and patterns of behaviors
The Eldrazi Aggro deck has had one of the fastest adoption rates in Magic in years. I stated Eldrazi Aggro, because Eldrazi Processor has major issues with specific decks and is rather beatable. To quote another player, "I don't like that deck, because it loses to itself." Processor was discovered early in December and gained traction for early adopters during late December around Christmas with the middle adopter period and going viral around January 1st. You can watch the price of Eye of Ugin spiking.
Eventually Aggro was released and Eye of Ugin went up to $45-$50, it is now last I checked at $35 and not moving in price as no one wants the card anymore because of the ban in a few weeks.
Early->Middle->Late
For the most part the card is most expensive at the Late phase, however since the deck is being killed off in its current form there are no more late adopters at this point and the Middle Adopters when the Aggro deck went viral would and are the Late adopters to a dead deck.
Forsythe is communicating a "we're leading, and looking into this and we know you're really ticked off please come yell at me." However, for the most part people are angry but considering no one saw this level of deck for quite sometime. We must conclude another point, that Bloom vs. Eldrazi Aggro was quicker and more efficient because Bloom is more difficult play, period, and why it took longer to crack the deck code and to lead to a ban.
By doing an emergency ban, this kills off deck designers with an incentive to build decks. Since you buy into a new deck and it dies immediately. And considering people are paying good money for decks, having some waylay between a deck's discovery through some adoption cycle to see the full meta shift. We have the evidence now that the deck is a Tier 0 deck. No one is arguing that.
The question is on relative speed, and for the most part we can even look at the earliest version of the deck:
This deck is the missing link between Processor's evolution into Aggro as the earliest nearest common ancestor to both Processor and Aggro. This comes from 1/31/16.
So let's do some math. Today is 3/8/16.
When the thing crawled out of the slimy cesspool, it's been 38 days of Eldrazi Aggro in it's Proto evolutionary form. The ban will be one month from now, which will be two months of Eldrazi.
So two months?
Two months.
So if we bifurcate the conversation between three different Eldrazi base decks:
1. Aggro
2. Processor
3. Dread Summonsing
The current cries about bans weren't around with the Tier 2 Processor or the Dread Summonsing version, it was when Aggro came on board with the earliest we can date right now 1/31 being generous and not seeing the fully refined list we see today.
Each of those decks had a different style and play to them, even between the different color combination for Processor there were variations and feasted on graveyard decks. It was an interesting concept, and a deck that had weaknesses. Dread Summonsing was it's own deck, even now short lived and interesting.
Aggro destroyed the meta.
But does it warrant an emergency ban? No.
Because let's start with a good article on this on why we need Eldrazi Winter:
I feel Sheridan Lardner does a good analysis here on keeping "the reality" of the situation understood.
My own understanding comes from more of a larger historical understanding, looking at the worst of the game with Urza Block towards other "bad times" prior to Modern concepts on design across the game and on what I consider necessary emergency bans. Urza Block was decided on a dice roll. That's Super Tier 0, no comparison to this Tier 0.
And speaking as someone who has played Vintage, Legacy, and on and on. I have my own perspective on this issue, that kneejerk reactions to kill off a deck that has potential is hyperbolic. Eldrazi has fans, I'm one of them. And we'd like to see Eldrazi fixed without destroying the deck. I own several other Modern decks. Processor was wonderful without breaking everything, Aggro destroyed the Eldrazi Brand.
So the middle ground is to analyze what is broken with the deck and specifically look at the data and the sense of the meta with a Tier 0. This isn't a year of hell, rather it is 2 months. I don't play Pro Tours, I care about FNM and FNM has seen warps with the meta. And I agree with a ban, but not at the time frame to warrant an emergency ban. This isn't Urza Block, probably the worst time in Magic. I also believe that A VERSION of Eldrazi is necessary in the format.
What I want to see is:
A. Eldrazi Tron
B. Eldrazi Aggro
C. Eldrazi Midrange
Each of those decks survive in some fashion, but not in their current fashion. I do not believe that Processor can live on as is and will be absorbed into one of the largest deck variants. We'll see some floundering as it gets hit hard to Tier 2, but survival is necessary for deck diversity. This would mean that a new tribe has emerged, a new deck variant has emerged, and a new era of Modern has shown that backwards compatibility with cards can create new decks when we revisit old planes. This also means that a new deck may come into existence with Emrakul's set.
That's the point in deck building, let's ignore Aggro's metashare and so forth but look at the pre Feburary world. There were three new decks available and each were competitive. They raised a lot of interest in the format. I for one am greatly annoyed that the innovation we saw from December through January did persist longer without the devastating results to see this Tier 0 deck emerge. That there is our reality, building deck building communities and people talking about their own version of the decks.
That's how each block should be for Modern. Bringing in new decks. That's what we want. And that's what the game needs to work towards, and this reflects the power of synergy and intra block design. Too much synergy, namely having too many Sol Lands destroyed a metagame. Prior to that discovery, we had an interesting new deck that in a year's time would have been a fine addition to the Tier 1.5 metagame. Two different realities, but one fact. If we can save the format from the Eldrazi Winter, so may we return in part to the drawing board and see the rise of a new, more pro-Modern Eldrazi deck especially in hopes that Emrakul's set will bring some fine new additions to the brood. That's the vision of Magic. Go back and read some of the BX Eldrazi Processor threads about people trying to figure the deck out. That's competitive Magic, not this aberration turned abomination.
Returning to a cleaner slate, we can begin again. Wiser.
AF Anyway, nothing's been decided. Normally the process does not involve testing. People ask me, people have asked me a lot, you know, this has the
emergence of this deck want to test modern more, when you're making new cards?
And honestly, the return on that investement is just never gonna be great for us. Considering that
only 7% of the Pro Tour field found the good version of this deck, and they put more hours into it than we ever could. The odds of us having
productive playtesting that would have found just how powerful this deck was, in the amount of time we could have dedicated to it you know is just...
..why can't they? They have some of the best players in the world working for them. You can't have a crack team working on breaking your new cards?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
I for one am the most concerned about the spiders, but agree with every other point Aaron mande.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I think it's more likely that both Eye and Eldrazi Temple get banned than that WotC decides to complicate Modern with a Restricted list.
Miller: [after watching the final crew log video PT and GP Top 8s] We're leaving.
Weir: No, we can't leave. Our orders are specific.
Miller: Rescue the format, salvage what's left of the players. The format is dead, doctor. Your Eldrazi killed them.
Weir: We came here to do a job--
Miller: We're aborting, doctor! Stark, download the files from the Wizards' computers.
Weir: Captain... don't do this.
Miller: It's done.
Weir: What about my Eldrazi? You can't just leave her!
Miller: I have no intention of leaving her, doctor. I will take Modern to a safe distance and then I'll launch tact missiles at the Eldrazi until I'm satisfied she's vaporized. F*** this deck.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I have no idea what's going on here ...
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
It's a loose quote from Event Horizon, a space horror movie from the 90s. Was the first thing that came to mind watching the interview and I thought it was hilarious. Deep cuts.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It's surprising that they didn't learn enough from that series of events to pre-emptively emergency ban at least Eye of Ugin here. My guess is that attendance has not declined at this point and Affinity looks pretty strong against Eldrazi and they're just going to weather the storm the way they did right up until Batterskull was printed last time around. They'll do the ban on whatever as the next set releases and just hope the meta isn't 50/50 UW Eldrazi before that. I'm thinking they've got 50/50 odds on that at this point.
supposing both lands did get the axe, would people simply play some kind of trondrazi? or is GR tron just the best tron variant without including many eldrazi?
im glad aaron had a decent time out and about, from his twitter you'd think he was going to get tarred and feathered before they eviscerated him.
If it's restricted to 1 copy, then you replace the other slots with Expedition Map and throw in a few Crucible of Worlds. Tutor it up, then replay it if destroyed. Doesn't really solve anything.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Not sure if serious.
Other than turning a turn 3 deck into a turn 6 deck, you mean?
The problem with Eye isn't just explosive starts. It's also explosive mid games and inevitable late games. Regardless, the idea of a restricted card is just silly and will never be implemented in Modern. It is only in effect in one format (Vintage) and only so that it allows people to play their $5,000 cards that are banned in every other format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The idea of using it on other formats is so obsolete it's rather laughable.
I also agree with a Temple ban but if temple goes and if it is replaced by Vesuva they will be out multiple turns, not just 1. For example, a hand with 2x Adarkar Wastes and a Vesuva is AWFUL, and a hand with temple and Vesuva is still only a turn 3 Thought Knot Seer which is much less impressive. Vesuva entering tapped slows that deck down sooooo much, and they only have one real target that they want to copy with it which is going to make it pretty shaky.
You can't have multiple copies of Eye but it does "stack" in the sense that you get the discount every time you cast an Eldrazi.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
The deck as is survives one block cycle, rather than an entire year. What he wants to do is maintain as leader that he is on the case and is thinking about Modern as a format and that they do care as one of the faces of Magic. He also wants to maintain regular order and establish a relationship with deck builders. That you can break the format, but you cannot break it forever. The game is not where it was twenty years ago with Urza Block in which an entire block destroyed the entire game.
Today, the deck will send ripple effects into the game for several years, but will not destroy Magic. Bloom Titan and Twin were both broken for an entire year. This will be a much smaller cycle. There is a process, they have an idea what they're doing and that's what they want to maintain is order. The breakers get their day in the sun and get to profit, while people get a chance to battle against it and it creates some interesting stories.
If you look at the Eldrazi Processor deck threads and the amount of interest that the deck created by several players, you will see a series of decks that were refined and built. The downside, though, is that Processor is dying a slow death and aggro and midrange versions will live on unless if a type of Processor survives. Eldrazi will hopefully remain tier 1-2, but will not devastate the format as it used to.
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
Spirits
Oh please stop pretending that Bloom or Twin ever even came to close to the current Eldrazi. I don't think Amulet Bloom ever had more than 10% metashare and I think Twin had something like 15% at its peak? How is this comparable to the 40+% of Eldrazi?
They do not even test bans. Like, we are playing a format they completely neglected to manage by anything other than gut feel and a need to have a 'FRESH' meta which they barely understand.
That's our reality.
Spirits
Polemics doesn't win the debate, especially with me.
Right now, we know a few things:
1. Urza Block almost killed Magic because the deck was so efficient that a game was decided on a dice roll
2. Bloom was a difficult to play deck that with time refined itself over a year to go from a backwater combo deck to a real threat once it was in the hands of a Pro. It was a difficult to play against, that while requiring skill and specific cards to know how to sequence. The statistics bore out that it's win percentage was higher than average and destroyed value. Given enough time, it would have caught on more if it wasn't the fear of an impending ban and that Americans tend to play aggro or midrange decks over combo or at least combo similar to infect decks.
The deck had a year in part because it was still under the radar, once the radar came it was under a microscope.
3. Twin was a police deck, that gradually became "Twin+" and shifted out Jeskai and Scapeshift decks out of the game. It had 2 years or so, and became a staple of rotating decks with Tron and a few others. However, because of the refinement of the deck and slowly bleeding diversity it was banned.
4. Pod was gaining market share because it was an easy deck to build and play, but boring to play against and difficult to stop. Finally died especially with the rise of Collected Company.
5. Eldrazi is unique in that it started out as Processor that evolved into Aggro roughly a month ago. Eldrazi "Menace" was known as early as late December for those of us who were early adopters. The new shift was aggro when someone cracked the deck into aggro mode. There were a few variants like a BGX Eldrazi deck.
The current Eldrazi Deck is an aberration, but does not compare to Urza Block's pervasiveness or power level making that Urza Block deck a complete abomination that almost consumed and ate Magic alive. This isn't apologetics, it's analyzing history and consistency in branding and design and rules set expectations.
In terms of everything you're angry about the Eldrazi deck being everywhere. I understand that, because I have been there as well at different times during Magic. Have you played Standard during the original Mirrodin block with Affinity when it was actually Affinity? That was a nightmare too, that obliterated any concept of Magic in standard for quite sometime. Eldrazi is more similar to Pod and Bloom, it's interactive in weird ways but not enough so that people can't really stop it comfortably without huge new shifts in their game play.
It doesn't matter gameshare, what matters is that there was a process and that as the decks became more and more of a threat and a spotlight was placed under them there was a course of action followed.
Pod, I believe, took too long to ban. Amulet Bloom lasted a year for a deck that not until the end of its life cycle started to catch on more, but remained difficult to play and with that one Mod's statistics website even stated that Bloom had a high win percentage than normal for a deck and that nerfing the deck was consistent.
If we're to look at something, we need to talk about a few concepts:
1. Adoption cycle
2. Marketing and communications
3. Establishing expectations and patterns of behaviors
The Eldrazi Aggro deck has had one of the fastest adoption rates in Magic in years. I stated Eldrazi Aggro, because Eldrazi Processor has major issues with specific decks and is rather beatable. To quote another player, "I don't like that deck, because it loses to itself." Processor was discovered early in December and gained traction for early adopters during late December around Christmas with the middle adopter period and going viral around January 1st. You can watch the price of Eye of Ugin spiking.
Eventually Aggro was released and Eye of Ugin went up to $45-$50, it is now last I checked at $35 and not moving in price as no one wants the card anymore because of the ban in a few weeks.
Early->Middle->Late
For the most part the card is most expensive at the Late phase, however since the deck is being killed off in its current form there are no more late adopters at this point and the Middle Adopters when the Aggro deck went viral would and are the Late adopters to a dead deck.
Forsythe is communicating a "we're leading, and looking into this and we know you're really ticked off please come yell at me." However, for the most part people are angry but considering no one saw this level of deck for quite sometime. We must conclude another point, that Bloom vs. Eldrazi Aggro was quicker and more efficient because Bloom is more difficult play, period, and why it took longer to crack the deck code and to lead to a ban.
By doing an emergency ban, this kills off deck designers with an incentive to build decks. Since you buy into a new deck and it dies immediately. And considering people are paying good money for decks, having some waylay between a deck's discovery through some adoption cycle to see the full meta shift. We have the evidence now that the deck is a Tier 0 deck. No one is arguing that.
The question is on relative speed, and for the most part we can even look at the earliest version of the deck:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11452&d=265037&f=MO
This deck is the missing link between Processor's evolution into Aggro as the earliest nearest common ancestor to both Processor and Aggro. This comes from 1/31/16.
So let's do some math. Today is 3/8/16.
When the thing crawled out of the slimy cesspool, it's been 38 days of Eldrazi Aggro in it's Proto evolutionary form. The ban will be one month from now, which will be two months of Eldrazi.
So two months?
Two months.
So if we bifurcate the conversation between three different Eldrazi base decks:
1. Aggro
2. Processor
3. Dread Summonsing
The current cries about bans weren't around with the Tier 2 Processor or the Dread Summonsing version, it was when Aggro came on board with the earliest we can date right now 1/31 being generous and not seeing the fully refined list we see today.
Each of those decks had a different style and play to them, even between the different color combination for Processor there were variations and feasted on graveyard decks. It was an interesting concept, and a deck that had weaknesses. Dread Summonsing was it's own deck, even now short lived and interesting.
Aggro destroyed the meta.
But does it warrant an emergency ban? No.
Because let's start with a good article on this on why we need Eldrazi Winter:
http://modernnexus.com/on-banning-and-beating-eldrazi/
I feel Sheridan Lardner does a good analysis here on keeping "the reality" of the situation understood.
My own understanding comes from more of a larger historical understanding, looking at the worst of the game with Urza Block towards other "bad times" prior to Modern concepts on design across the game and on what I consider necessary emergency bans. Urza Block was decided on a dice roll. That's Super Tier 0, no comparison to this Tier 0.
And speaking as someone who has played Vintage, Legacy, and on and on. I have my own perspective on this issue, that kneejerk reactions to kill off a deck that has potential is hyperbolic. Eldrazi has fans, I'm one of them. And we'd like to see Eldrazi fixed without destroying the deck. I own several other Modern decks. Processor was wonderful without breaking everything, Aggro destroyed the Eldrazi Brand.
So the middle ground is to analyze what is broken with the deck and specifically look at the data and the sense of the meta with a Tier 0. This isn't a year of hell, rather it is 2 months. I don't play Pro Tours, I care about FNM and FNM has seen warps with the meta. And I agree with a ban, but not at the time frame to warrant an emergency ban. This isn't Urza Block, probably the worst time in Magic. I also believe that A VERSION of Eldrazi is necessary in the format.
What I want to see is:
A. Eldrazi Tron
B. Eldrazi Aggro
C. Eldrazi Midrange
Each of those decks survive in some fashion, but not in their current fashion. I do not believe that Processor can live on as is and will be absorbed into one of the largest deck variants. We'll see some floundering as it gets hit hard to Tier 2, but survival is necessary for deck diversity. This would mean that a new tribe has emerged, a new deck variant has emerged, and a new era of Modern has shown that backwards compatibility with cards can create new decks when we revisit old planes. This also means that a new deck may come into existence with Emrakul's set.
That's the point in deck building, let's ignore Aggro's metashare and so forth but look at the pre Feburary world. There were three new decks available and each were competitive. They raised a lot of interest in the format. I for one am greatly annoyed that the innovation we saw from December through January did persist longer without the devastating results to see this Tier 0 deck emerge. That there is our reality, building deck building communities and people talking about their own version of the decks.
That's how each block should be for Modern. Bringing in new decks. That's what we want. And that's what the game needs to work towards, and this reflects the power of synergy and intra block design. Too much synergy, namely having too many Sol Lands destroyed a metagame. Prior to that discovery, we had an interesting new deck that in a year's time would have been a fine addition to the Tier 1.5 metagame. Two different realities, but one fact. If we can save the format from the Eldrazi Winter, so may we return in part to the drawing board and see the rise of a new, more pro-Modern Eldrazi deck especially in hopes that Emrakul's set will bring some fine new additions to the brood. That's the vision of Magic. Go back and read some of the BX Eldrazi Processor threads about people trying to figure the deck out. That's competitive Magic, not this aberration turned abomination.
Returning to a cleaner slate, we can begin again. Wiser.
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
..why can't they? They have some of the best players in the world working for them. You can't have a crack team working on breaking your new cards?
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/13649 - My all foil cube.