With splinter twin banned, everyone assumed the turn 4 combo control deck is dead, but isn't it possible to replace twin with Kiki-Jiki, mirror breaker and include simian spirit guide (which isn't bad on its own), changing it from a 2 card turn 4 combo into a 3 card turn 4 combo? The deck could even include cards like Pentad prism and Keranos, God of storms as back up.
Because we have Eldrazi decks that stomp the metagame far more than Twin ever did?
Like, if you're playing competitively, why even try to brew something up when you can just take Eldrazi and sweet everything that isn't Eldrazi and try to outskill your opponent in the mirror?
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Because of hand disruption, and removal. Having one more turn to get the mana, one more card to disrupt the combo, and putting it on a creature (without flash) instead of an enchantment, its just an overall weaker deck, that was not the World Slayer, people made it out to be anyway.
Twin players often enough would board out the combo, but the THREAT of the combo is what is now missing from the format.
OP i think you are correct and i feel like most people are very uncreative and don't see this as a viable idea for some reason. i don't see how kiki + exarch is any more fragile than twin + exarch other than being a turn slower. dismember is super popular right now exarch would have still died to it anyway if twin were legal.
kiki chord can be a thing with restoration angel so i don't see why twinless twin with kiki should be so different.
In a format as fast as modern, you dont think a turn matters? More mana/land drops matter? The difference between Tier 1 (UR Twin) and 2 (Kiki Chord) or 3 in some cases is down to that 1 turn of consistency.
Everyone is only looking at the 5 mana on Kiki-jiki but isn't there lots of way to "reduce" it? Cards like what I have mentioned (simian spirit guide, Pentad prism) does that so I don't find the argument on kiki-jiki is a turn slower really valid.
Turn 1 land, serum
Turn 2 land, pentad prism with 2 counter
Turn 3 land, end of opponent turn exarch
Turn 4 land, use one counter on Pentad prism and cast kiki-jiki to combo with one more counter left on prism to cast a one mana counterspells
Or
Turn 1 land, serum
Turn 2 land, mana up for remand
Turn 3 land, end of opponent turn exarch
Turn 4 land, exile simian spirit guide and cast kiki-Jiki
Or
Turn 1 land, serum
Turn 2 land, pentad prism with 2 counter
Turn 3 land, use 2 counter on prism to cast Keranos
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Current Deck(s): TappedOut Would love to have more input to improve!
As an Ad Nauseam player at heart, I can only encourage you to keep brewing this combo : I'm dying to see combo decks in the meta and to me, 5 mana is not that much. You can easily protect your combo with counterspells. Keep it coming.
just have a spellskite in play when you go off and make sure they don't have kolaghans command and you are good to go. I don't think 5 mana or the fragility of creatures has much meaning here. I think it is good practice not to look at the least potential of a card or combo but look for the most potential, they 'could' kill one of your pieces but if they don't you will win with infinite damage on turn 5 with this combo. turn 4 if you use ssg.
plus kiki comboing cant be stopped by opposing skites whereas it could with twin. and you using your own skites helps you live against burn and infect.
on the play. t1 land. t2 skite, t3 don't die. t4 don't die. end of their turn flash in exarch. your turn 5 play kiki and win even if they have one removal spell. you can even be cheeky and put pact of negation in your deck if you are really worried about what will happen if you just jam the combo.
This is an idea I played around with of a fun combo deck.
Kiki shenanigans and hive mind combo.
With pentad prism and a spirit guide you could combo off turn 3 with counter backup.
Is it playable in this eldrazi meta? Not likely..
Would I sleeve it up for a tournament? Of course.. cos combo is fun!
I gave up trying to make that work. It's not good, it's difficult on the mana, it's slow, and it's much more fragile. I'm having fun just playing Delver variants in the meantime; currently Jeskai with sideboard Geist. I played Splinter Twin nearly a year and Kiki doesn't even come close.
6+ cards is a lot for a deck to "jank out" turn 4 goldfish (which is what the deck is all about) and that player should be questioned? Ok! Noted!
*starts looking at grishoalbrand, abzan company, storm, ad nauseam deck list and question the sanity of players who plays them*
This is the mistake here, and it perfectly reflects what I am saying.
UR Twin was not about the combo it was about keeping you off your plan until it was easy to combo.
All In Twin died off as the plan a long long time ago. UR Twin was a tempo control deck, with an instant win condition if the opportunity presented itself.
I would recommend the other combos over twin all day.
Edit: I play those other decks too, Modern isn't about fair magic, you have to be able to win fast, or win on the spot.
There has been some UWR Kiki combo decks out there and they do decently (pre-Eldrazi craze that is). There are certain things that you should think about if you want to pursue this:
1) Five mana and four mana is actually a pretty large difference. It's not just "a turn" slower - you have to actually have drawn 5 lands over the course of the game. In context, if you have ~23/24 lands in your deck, the probability that you hit your fourth land drop is ~60% on T4 and ~70% on T5. To hit your fifth land drop, its ~45% on T5. That's pretty significant. This doesn't account for the fact that in some matches you used to really want to hit 6-7 mana to have counterspell back up which becomes 7-8 mana to protect your combo.
2) A three-card combo is much harder to assemble than a 2-card combo. Not only do you have to draw into all of the pieces, but it does make the combo much more vulnerable. By that I don't mean boltable (though it is), I I mean that hand disruption is better against you than before.
Also, your combo becomes more boltable is still a pretty huge problem - even if Dismember is super popular right now, being weak to just dismember > being weak to both bolt and dismember. Just playing spellskite and hoping they don't have answers isn't always a solution in practice.
3) Twin players typically wanted the control/tempo-combo dynamic that twin offered. SSG and Prism Pentad (though I guess you could argue for SSG) are not really tempo or card advantage cards. And since you're slotting in combo-cards, you're probably taking away some of the interactive cards like spell snares, cryptics, or electrolyze. If you opt to move towards the all-in variant (e.g. with Pact of Negation), you have to ask yourself: how is my all-in twin better/different than other all-in combos of the format? e.g. Grishoalbrand or Ad Nauseum? Or even a scapeshift variant? Is the trade off worth it? I can't answer these questions for you - but its something to consider. For most people its no.
Personally speaking, I think it can work. Its definitely worse, but might be T2-T3. I do think that your list might be stretching too far in different places, but I don't consider myself an expert.
Best of luck to you.
Nobody plays Twin as a 3-card, turn 4 combo because Ad Nauseam and Grishoalbrand are just better at it. AN doesn't need a creature to stay alive to win and Grishoalbrand is faster.
Twin wasn't about speed since 2014. Trying to force it to be faster is like putting square wheels on a car. What "works", going by the PT decklists, is playing Restoration Angel + Kiki-Jiki or Through the Breach + Emrakul as the combo wincon in your control deck. Yes, there was a UR deck at the PT with Bolts, Remands, and Breach + Emrakul as its wincon, even if it was the only one and finished 6-4.
Simian is terrible, but if you searched the forums you'd see the Goryo's Vengenace + Kiki combo thread that I made It can win on turn 3, although it usually does it on turn 4. It can play control as Twin did too and win whenever you want
I've been playing that deck for 2 months and it's pretty busted, at least as good as old Twin IMO.
Obviously with our Eldrazi Overlords it's difficult to ever win, but as soon as they dissapear I'm confident it will be a tier 1 or tier 2 strategy, for real
i've been playing UR kiki on cockatrice since twin's ban, and i'm having the SAME results as i was playing twin. The deck is good, just modern is too full of lazy people. Like with BUG midrange, even when 2 top 8 went in the SCG, people kept saying "it's too slow, no lightning bolt, no good removal blah blah blah"...i kept winning without problems
I'm just happy to crush people who cannot invest time in their decks and prefer to buy the most netdecked deck around
(BTW my UR kiki plays 2 bloodmoon main, 1 in side, 2 cryptic command and 3 kiki jiki! never had problem with mana screw ;))
Wanna know another cool thing about Breach + Emrakul? Nobody plays Exarch/Mite now, so Cryptic is the only way to tap it down before combat (But then again, if they had Cryptic, why wouldn't they use it to counter Breach instead? If you Breach on their turn, you'll have counter mana open for their Cryptic on yours.)
With splinter twin banned, everyone assumed the turn 4 combo control deck is dead, but isn't it possible to replace twin with Kiki-Jiki, mirror breaker and include simian spirit guide (which isn't bad on its own), changing it from a 2 card turn 4 combo into a 3 card turn 4 combo? The deck could even include cards like Pentad prism and Keranos, God of storms as back up.
This is a deck, they just use Restoration Angel because it's a better creature than pestermite and it curves into Kiki. UWR Kiki is an okay deck.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Like, if you're playing competitively, why even try to brew something up when you can just take Eldrazi and sweet everything that isn't Eldrazi and try to outskill your opponent in the mirror?
Twin players often enough would board out the combo, but the THREAT of the combo is what is now missing from the format.
Spirits
kiki chord can be a thing with restoration angel so i don't see why twinless twin with kiki should be so different.
Spirits
Turn 1 land, serum
Turn 2 land, pentad prism with 2 counter
Turn 3 land, end of opponent turn exarch
Turn 4 land, use one counter on Pentad prism and cast kiki-jiki to combo with one more counter left on prism to cast a one mana counterspells
Or
Turn 1 land, serum
Turn 2 land, mana up for remand
Turn 3 land, end of opponent turn exarch
Turn 4 land, exile simian spirit guide and cast kiki-Jiki
Or
Turn 1 land, serum
Turn 2 land, pentad prism with 2 counter
Turn 3 land, use 2 counter on prism to cast Keranos
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
plus kiki comboing cant be stopped by opposing skites whereas it could with twin. and you using your own skites helps you live against burn and infect.
on the play. t1 land. t2 skite, t3 don't die. t4 don't die. end of their turn flash in exarch. your turn 5 play kiki and win even if they have one removal spell. you can even be cheeky and put pact of negation in your deck if you are really worried about what will happen if you just jam the combo.
That's not how the deck played.
Spirits
*starts looking at grishoalbrand, abzan company, storm, ad nauseam deck list and question the sanity of players who plays them*
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Kiki shenanigans and hive mind combo.
With pentad prism and a spirit guide you could combo off turn 3 with counter backup.
Is it playable in this eldrazi meta? Not likely..
Would I sleeve it up for a tournament? Of course.. cos combo is fun!
2 Pestermite
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spellskite
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Pact of Negation
3 Pact of the Titan
4 Pentad Prism
3 Hive Mind
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Ghost Quarter
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Serum Visions
4 Pentad Prism
9 counterspells or other spells
I'm thinking something like this as the skeleton.. A turn 3 Keranos could win the game on its own. Either that or combo to win.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
This is the mistake here, and it perfectly reflects what I am saying.
UR Twin was not about the combo it was about keeping you off your plan until it was easy to combo.
All In Twin died off as the plan a long long time ago. UR Twin was a tempo control deck, with an instant win condition if the opportunity presented itself.
I would recommend the other combos over twin all day.
Edit: I play those other decks too, Modern isn't about fair magic, you have to be able to win fast, or win on the spot.
Spirits
1) Five mana and four mana is actually a pretty large difference. It's not just "a turn" slower - you have to actually have drawn 5 lands over the course of the game. In context, if you have ~23/24 lands in your deck, the probability that you hit your fourth land drop is ~60% on T4 and ~70% on T5. To hit your fifth land drop, its ~45% on T5. That's pretty significant. This doesn't account for the fact that in some matches you used to really want to hit 6-7 mana to have counterspell back up which becomes 7-8 mana to protect your combo.
2) A three-card combo is much harder to assemble than a 2-card combo. Not only do you have to draw into all of the pieces, but it does make the combo much more vulnerable. By that I don't mean boltable (though it is), I I mean that hand disruption is better against you than before.
Also, your combo becomes more boltable is still a pretty huge problem - even if Dismember is super popular right now, being weak to just dismember > being weak to both bolt and dismember. Just playing spellskite and hoping they don't have answers isn't always a solution in practice.
3) Twin players typically wanted the control/tempo-combo dynamic that twin offered. SSG and Prism Pentad (though I guess you could argue for SSG) are not really tempo or card advantage cards. And since you're slotting in combo-cards, you're probably taking away some of the interactive cards like spell snares, cryptics, or electrolyze. If you opt to move towards the all-in variant (e.g. with Pact of Negation), you have to ask yourself: how is my all-in twin better/different than other all-in combos of the format? e.g. Grishoalbrand or Ad Nauseum? Or even a scapeshift variant? Is the trade off worth it? I can't answer these questions for you - but its something to consider. For most people its no.
Personally speaking, I think it can work. Its definitely worse, but might be T2-T3. I do think that your list might be stretching too far in different places, but I don't consider myself an expert.
Best of luck to you.
Twin wasn't about speed since 2014. Trying to force it to be faster is like putting square wheels on a car. What "works", going by the PT decklists, is playing Restoration Angel + Kiki-Jiki or Through the Breach + Emrakul as the combo wincon in your control deck. Yes, there was a UR deck at the PT with Bolts, Remands, and Breach + Emrakul as its wincon, even if it was the only one and finished 6-4.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I've been playing that deck for 2 months and it's pretty busted, at least as good as old Twin IMO.
Obviously with our Eldrazi Overlords it's difficult to ever win, but as soon as they dissapear I'm confident it will be a tier 1 or tier 2 strategy, for real
-Danteh
I'm just happy to crush people who cannot invest time in their decks and prefer to buy the most netdecked deck around
(BTW my UR kiki plays 2 bloodmoon main, 1 in side, 2 cryptic command and 3 kiki jiki! never had problem with mana screw ;))
4x deceiver exarch
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Pestermite
2x Blood Moon
2x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
1x Dispel
4x Remand
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Snare
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Serum Visions
1x Roast
23 lands
(1x Desolate Lighthouse)
The deck was pre eldrazi, but it's doing fine... for what it can do against eldrazi
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
haha.. right, green creature. List edited.
Thanks for the heads up
This is a deck, they just use Restoration Angel because it's a better creature than pestermite and it curves into Kiki. UWR Kiki is an okay deck.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
You want to be able to cast unburial rights if you were to draw it
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR