Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded has long been herald as the laughing stock of planeswalkers when people often rate him as the worst one (even though old nissa/old chandras exist lol). Is a continuous (but random) looting affect for two mana really useless in our format?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
The problem with Tibalt besides the obvious, which is that he just flat out blows, is that none of his abilities affect the board state. Even if his +1 had no random clause, you're still paying two red (not easy on the manabase) for half a Looting with no Flashback, and still within bolt Range. Tibalt is an experiment gone wrong. Wizards was so caught up in whether or not they could print a two mana planeswalker, they didn't stop to think if they should[/Goldblum].
What on Earth is going on in your avatar?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
If you look at literally any red planeswalker, not only are their abilities playable, but in the right deck, they're nearly unbeatable. Red 'walkers have a reputation for being some of the strongest, and yet Tibalt has nearly one deck where he's FEASIBLE, not even playable. Playing the deck, I don't personally think he's even as good there, where something like Faithless Looting can do the same job, with flashback. Honestly, I think WOTC must have been collectively drugged at the time.
Tibalt is so bad that if you actually played him in modern, no one would want to waste a bolt or abrupt decay on his useless @$$.
Public Mod Note
(Torpf):
Warning for evading the censor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
If we ever saw another set with Maddness, more flashback cards, and cards that could be cast out of the graveyard, Tibalt could be playable. As is right now, he is terrible, but you never know. I have a good friend who went around and bought all Tibats he could. He stopped at 36, rounding out a play set, with two sets of pack foils, and a set of duel deck foils. It's quite funny when he brings it to LGSs for trade in.
Tibalt's +1 requires you be playing a deck that doesn't mind discarding cards at random. There aren't many of those... only Storm and Dredge come to mind. The problem is that Tibalt isn't very good in Storm; he needs multiple activations to be better than something like Desperate Ravings (even before considering Pyromancer's Ascension), and if you draw him while going off he's just a worse version of that. As for Dredge, he could be useful there... if his other abilities worked in the deck at all. Neither his -4 nor his -6 works really that well in the deck. I suppose his -6 can be a gamewinner against some decks if you can pull it off, but you're spending 4 turns setting it up before you can even use it, and again against some decks it's basically irrelevant.
If his other abilities somehow synergized with his +1, he might be good. But as is he's got a +1 that requires a particular kind of deck to even be okay, and his other abilities don't work with the kinds of decks that would be willing to put up with his +1.
The Old Chandra's are actually playable in decks. Tibalt is not.
Old Nissa is absolutely horrible. Nissa Revane starts at ONLY 2 loyalty, one of her abilities literally requires you to play another creature in the deck (who is horrible), and the ult is the definition of over extending. In my eyes Tibalt is better I'm sorry.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Nissa Revane is a fine sideboard card. It can stall a lot of games by getting out of reach with massive life gain, and with a Mirror Entity online you can't attack through the army of elves. The ultimate is an instant win with Shaman of the Pack.
BTW: Nissa's Chosen is an okish card. It can also stall non tramplers and blank non-exiling removal in an endless loop.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
The Old Chandra's are actually playable in decks. Tibalt is not.
Old Nissa is absolutely horrible. Nissa Revane starts at ONLY 2 loyalty, one of her abilities literally requires you to play another creature in the deck (who is horrible), and the ult is the definition of over extending. In my eyes Tibalt is better I'm sorry.
Nissa brings a better than a bear blocker onto the field in a tribe that wants more creatures than anything. After that it gains life. I actually see Nissa played in EDH.
You know what card not even EDH players will play? Tibalt. Because he isnt worth the 2 mana nir the card slot you wasted putting him in your deck.
1st Ability is card disadvantage.
2nd Ability requires you to be facing a deck that goes for card advantage, which is reaaally not good if to get to it you have to create card disadvantage for yourself.
3rd Ability is Insurrection. Its ok. Takes 4 turns of card disadvantage to get to it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Top Control: The only pure lockdown deck in Modern.
1st ability is only a disadvantage if you can't use your grave. He is fine in EDH, and I've seen several games finished by a forgot Tibalt close to Ultimate. It's hilarious
Tibalt is an exercise in how much a card can go from theoretically insane (repeatable looting may not generate CA, but it does go quite a way into warping your grip into a god hand if left unchallenged) to utter trash when you stick the word "random" somewhere into the text (unless you're Jon Finkel).
Personally I'd be game for a Tibalt 2.0 if he loses the random. Doubly so if he learns how to Price of Progress in place of his Sudden Impact. But that's something for a different thread.
In the past, I've played Tibalt in some Life from the Loam builds, he's decent there.
I still play him. He's good exclusively in a deck where he can enable dredge triggers and dig for combo pieces that don't mind being discarded. Assault Loam happens to fit that bill. Most decks don't.
At the very least, he can be glad that Jace, the Living Guildpact has taken the title of worst planeswalker from him.
In the past, I've played Tibalt in some Life from the Loam builds, he's decent there.
I still play him. He's good exclusively in a deck where he can enable dredge triggers and dig for combo pieces that don't mind being discarded. Assault Loam happens to fit that bill. Most decks don't.
At the very least, he can be glad that Jace, the Living Guildpact has taken the title of worst planeswalker from him.
I'd easily put Jace above Tibalt. Actually, I'd put him above the first two Chandras as well.
In the past, I've played Tibalt in some Life from the Loam builds, he's decent there.
I still play him. He's good exclusively in a deck where he can enable dredge triggers and dig for combo pieces that don't mind being discarded. Assault Loam happens to fit that bill. Most decks don't.
At the very least, he can be glad that Jace, the Living Guildpact has taken the title of worst planeswalker from him.
I'd easily put Jace above Tibalt. Actually, I'd put him above the first two Chandras as well.
Why's that? Whereas at least Tibalt has a couple exotic homes, JLG wasn't even good in limited, let alone constructed.
In the past, I've played Tibalt in some Life from the Loam builds, he's decent there.
I still play him. He's good exclusively in a deck where he can enable dredge triggers and dig for combo pieces that don't mind being discarded. Assault Loam happens to fit that bill. Most decks don't.
At the very least, he can be glad that Jace, the Living Guildpact has taken the title of worst planeswalker from him.
I'd easily put Jace above Tibalt. Actually, I'd put him above the first two Chandras as well.
Why's that? Whereas at least Tibalt has a couple exotic homes, JLG wasn't even good in limited, let alone constructed.
Jace is underwhelming, but he still can be useful. Tibalt requires you to warp your deck around him to even be that. What amounts to Sleight of Hand each turn isn't that great, but it's still better than Tibalt's +1. To be fair, Tibalt costs only 2 mana, but his other abilities aren't very good. Even the simple strategy of "tick him up and hope for his ultimate" isn't that great because his +1 can so easily be a disadvantage. Jace at least gives some card filtering and then wins the game off of his ultimate.
As for the Chandras, I'd honestly put Jace above Chandra Ablaze even if Chandra Ablaze cost 2RR; she's that unimpressive. Chandra Nalaar is a little more arguable, but her +1 is still really rather mediocre, particularly for a 5-mana planeswalker. When the primary purpose of the +1 seems to be "tick the loyalty counter up!" (rather than actually getting something useful out of it) that's not a good sign.
Jace is underwhelming, but he still can be useful. Tibalt requires you to warp your deck around him to even be that. What amounts to Sleight of Hand each turn isn't that great, but it's still better than Tibalt's +1. To be fair, Tibalt costs only 2 mana, but his other abilities aren't very good. Even the simple strategy of "tick him up and hope for his ultimate" isn't that great because his +1 can so easily be a disadvantage. Jace at least gives some card filtering and then wins the game off of his ultimate.
As for the Chandras, I'd honestly put Jace above Chandra Ablaze even if Chandra Ablaze cost 2RR; she's that unimpressive. Chandra Nalaar is a little more arguable, but her +1 is still really rather mediocre, particularly for a 5-mana planeswalker. When the primary purpose of the +1 seems to be "tick the loyalty counter up!" (rather than actually getting something useful out of it) that's not a good sign.
You do get something useful out of ticking Tibalt up: a dredge trigger. The central purpose of Tibalt in these decks is to dig for Loam/Assault pieces and fill the graveyard at a terrifying pace once you start casting Loam. Given that you will often have so many lands in hand, you frequently discard a land (that you get back anyway) and turn the loot into something that hits more often than not. You say that you have to warp deck around Tibalt, but that's still a constructed-level use, and you can't look at these cards in a vacuum, particularly in Modern. As for the Chandras, Ablaze has some casual applications (can draw 6+ cards in an ideal scenario in RED of all colors) and Nalaar was a fringe option in standard Jund at the time as a removal spell that can be a threat when not dealt with.
And you need to enlighten me on the "usefulness" of Jace, the Living Guildpact. His abilities aren't even able to be built around; they're just so marginal that other mediocre cards like Monastery Siege and Sultai Ascendancy still completely outclass him. He has seen no play in any competitive constructed deck, wasn't even a good playable in limited, and would be pointless to try to make work in EDH.
Nissa revane produces card advantage by basically being +1: Make a 2/3 for 4 mana. Garruk wildspeaker used to be a powerhouse when he was released and he -1'ed to make a 3/3 granted untapping with him is basically sol ring but elves decks usually have plenty of mana anyways. Not to mention the gain 2 life per elf uptick can be gamebreaking because if your opponent can't win that tends to be very good.
Tibalt without random discard is one of the best walkers ever printed because he's a merfolk looter in red with 2 more abilities as well as haste. With the random....have to heavily build around him to have him be consistently good and not just luck where you discard what you wanted to discard but the odds are stacked against you typically in that minigame.
Living guildpact I would rate above tibalt. Jace at least has a fat ass loyalty and is blue and grants you real card selection. Tibalt does not. Sure living guildpact is still a pile but if living guildpact is a pile tibalt is a landfill. I'd easily rate original chandra and ablaze above tibalt because nalaar can come down and instantly kill some creature/be at parity and affect the board. Ablaze's minus ability can produce card advantage as well not to mention really mess up some peoples hands. Ablazes plus isn't bad either it's basically turning any red card you discard into a lightning blast granted it isn't card advantage but her first and second ability have pretty incredible synergy. So she didn't cut it in a very powerful standard environment being 6 mana so what. If that's supposed to be surprising I don't have the faintest clue as to why it is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
-Freyalise
Currently Playing:
Retired
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
What on Earth is going on in your avatar?
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
The Old Chandra's are actually playable in decks. Tibalt is not.
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
faithless looting is a WAY better planeswalker than tibalt will ever be.
Dance, my puppet!
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
If his other abilities somehow synergized with his +1, he might be good. But as is he's got a +1 that requires a particular kind of deck to even be okay, and his other abilities don't work with the kinds of decks that would be willing to put up with his +1.
Old Nissa is absolutely horrible. Nissa Revane starts at ONLY 2 loyalty, one of her abilities literally requires you to play another creature in the deck (who is horrible), and the ult is the definition of over extending. In my eyes Tibalt is better I'm sorry.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
BTW: Nissa's Chosen is an okish card. It can also stall non tramplers and blank non-exiling removal in an endless loop.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Nissa brings a better than a bear blocker onto the field in a tribe that wants more creatures than anything. After that it gains life. I actually see Nissa played in EDH.
You know what card not even EDH players will play? Tibalt. Because he isnt worth the 2 mana nir the card slot you wasted putting him in your deck.
1st Ability is card disadvantage.
2nd Ability requires you to be facing a deck that goes for card advantage, which is reaaally not good if to get to it you have to create card disadvantage for yourself.
3rd Ability is Insurrection. Its ok. Takes 4 turns of card disadvantage to get to it.
u/Anon_Amarth - Fun as a zero sum game: If my opponent is having none of it, then by extension I must be having all of it.
Current Top Control Decklist
Cockatrice: Spage
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Personally I'd be game for a Tibalt 2.0 if he loses the random. Doubly so if he learns how to Price of Progress in place of his Sudden Impact. But that's something for a different thread.
I still play him. He's good exclusively in a deck where he can enable dredge triggers and dig for combo pieces that don't mind being discarded. Assault Loam happens to fit that bill. Most decks don't.
At the very least, he can be glad that Jace, the Living Guildpact has taken the title of worst planeswalker from him.
Cubetutor Link
Why's that? Whereas at least Tibalt has a couple exotic homes, JLG wasn't even good in limited, let alone constructed.
Cubetutor Link
As for the Chandras, I'd honestly put Jace above Chandra Ablaze even if Chandra Ablaze cost 2RR; she's that unimpressive. Chandra Nalaar is a little more arguable, but her +1 is still really rather mediocre, particularly for a 5-mana planeswalker. When the primary purpose of the +1 seems to be "tick the loyalty counter up!" (rather than actually getting something useful out of it) that's not a good sign.
You do get something useful out of ticking Tibalt up: a dredge trigger. The central purpose of Tibalt in these decks is to dig for Loam/Assault pieces and fill the graveyard at a terrifying pace once you start casting Loam. Given that you will often have so many lands in hand, you frequently discard a land (that you get back anyway) and turn the loot into something that hits more often than not. You say that you have to warp deck around Tibalt, but that's still a constructed-level use, and you can't look at these cards in a vacuum, particularly in Modern. As for the Chandras, Ablaze has some casual applications (can draw 6+ cards in an ideal scenario in RED of all colors) and Nalaar was a fringe option in standard Jund at the time as a removal spell that can be a threat when not dealt with.
And you need to enlighten me on the "usefulness" of Jace, the Living Guildpact. His abilities aren't even able to be built around; they're just so marginal that other mediocre cards like Monastery Siege and Sultai Ascendancy still completely outclass him. He has seen no play in any competitive constructed deck, wasn't even a good playable in limited, and would be pointless to try to make work in EDH.
Cubetutor Link
Tibalt without random discard is one of the best walkers ever printed because he's a merfolk looter in red with 2 more abilities as well as haste. With the random....have to heavily build around him to have him be consistently good and not just luck where you discard what you wanted to discard but the odds are stacked against you typically in that minigame.
Living guildpact I would rate above tibalt. Jace at least has a fat ass loyalty and is blue and grants you real card selection. Tibalt does not. Sure living guildpact is still a pile but if living guildpact is a pile tibalt is a landfill. I'd easily rate original chandra and ablaze above tibalt because nalaar can come down and instantly kill some creature/be at parity and affect the board. Ablaze's minus ability can produce card advantage as well not to mention really mess up some peoples hands. Ablazes plus isn't bad either it's basically turning any red card you discard into a lightning blast granted it isn't card advantage but her first and second ability have pretty incredible synergy. So she didn't cut it in a very powerful standard environment being 6 mana so what. If that's supposed to be surprising I don't have the faintest clue as to why it is.
Currently Playing:
Retired