MTG Salvation

Quote from tronix »

i think a few things we can hope for are the format remaining diverse, because a larger array of equally powerful options makes the demand more evenly distributed; and cards trickling in from standard that power up decks that arent that great rather than making good decks better (for the same reason as before).

like im really glad that mardu pyromancer is a good deck because people often look at GBx as the only viable option if you want to play midrange and be competitive.

a stoneforge unban might help with this. although i gotta admit im inwardly cringing at the thought of buying a set of SFM with the associated equipment package; swords are still hella expensive even with seeing no play in this format.

boosting tribal seems like a safe option.

Dude my fingers are crossed for Skirk Prospector to team up with Goblin Warchief and return us to green-skinned glory. Of course, since this is the price forum, it is worth noting that legion loyalist has been trending upward since 8whack got some screen time at 11-2 in Phoenix. The deck is still dirt cheap, but that just feels awful to spend $50 on a playset of a card that isn't that good.

Yeah Loyalist is another one that needs a reprint. He's casual decent

Quote from idSurge »

Yeah Loyalist is another one that needs a reprint. He's casual decent

It definitely does. After losing to the Goblins deck with Shared Animosity (Goblin Chieftain wasn't printed yet) with my Pod deck at a GPT years back, I bought Legion Loyalist foils for $4 because the difference in non foil and foil was $1. Never in my lifetime did I expect it to go up THIS much. Honestly it is an atrocity that it did and a sign that Wizards has to do something about prices. Chronicles was terrible and anything is better than that, but there needs to be some thought process before printing a Tree in a $10 a pack set.

Quote from idSurge »

Nobody is mystified about the how (welcome to how supply and demand zzzzzzzzzz....you lost me) prices got here.

Card's being THIS expensive, if supply dries up, is a bad thing however. We all laugh at Vintage deck prices or Legacy, because those formats have reserved list issues, but if multiple play sets in your deck are $400+ thats a very steep barrier, that doesnt need to exist.

Let me put it this way. You can't complain about how cards are 'too expensive', and then also complain about how sets like Masters 25 don't have 'enough value'. Both of these ideas are opposed to each other.

If cards are too expensive, the answer is to print more, increasing the supply and therefore dropping the price.

But if you want to open cards worth money, those cards needs to not be reprinted, and thus the supply will be restricted which drives up the price.

WotC could very easily do what the company that prints Yu-Gi-Oh does. IIRC, after their PT equivalent, they print deck tins that are the decks that were in the Top 8 of the tournament. This gives every player access to powerful decks, without having to spend thousands of dollars. However, Magic players want their collections to be worth money, so doing this makes exactly no sense, because in this scenario, your cards are worth nothing.

Me saying, "I don't get it," is me being confused when people want cards to be cheap for them to buy, but then they want them to be expensive as soon as they are in their collection.

Print more sets like 2017. Its really simple.

Quote from idSurge »

Print more sets like 2017. Its really simple.

Yeah, 2017 was pretty much a success.

I noticed that shops are trying to downsell and get rid of their Iconic Masters and M25 boxes. I know all of you have seen somewhere that has sold the Iconic Box/M25 Box bundle at a hugely discounted price (probably for suckers). It's sad. I tell people that these boxes will continue to go down. There is a point where they are worth picking up, but I personally haven't done the math on it. (too busy buying Stoneforge Mystics, just used $300 of store credit on just that card yesterday at 2 stores)

Quote from idSurge »

Print more sets like 2017. Its really simple.

Let us say that every year they print a set like Modern Masters 2017. Every single year, the price of all the cards in the set will decrease as more cards that people are looking for are added to the supply. This will continue until we have a situation like Masters 25, where you have maybe 5 cards that put you ahead of the cost of the pack, and everything else is *****. And this time, it will be because of the simple fact that everything has been printed into oblivion.

It really isn't that simple.

For the record, I don't buy boxes. I think buying boxes only makes sense in three scenarios:

1. You want to draft with friends
2. You want an expansive collection
3. You want to sell the singles

If you're trying to get into modern to play, buying a masters box is the worst thing you can do. I know most people reading this already know, but if it helps some newer people I'm happy to state it as an early lesson. Hell even when a new masters set comes out, if that box is $240 you could use that money to buy a deck and go to your LGS's weekly modern four rounder.

And again this is not a binary argument. I never said cards should have zero value or be reprinted into the ground. I named very specific cards with price tags over $75. Let's not go down the road claiming "well $5 is worse than $75 because consumer confidence." Consumer confidence is bull***** in a non-reserved list item. You buy something, you know there's a risk of it being reprinted. Hell, I've long said that we should get a significant reprint boost that leads into an EXPANSION of the reserved list. I don't have the exact plan in writing, but a masters set that is equivalent to a sixty-day 10% off sale because snapcaster has to be a mythic for draft purposes is silly. WOTC is leaving money on the table.

And you know what I'll make the comment: WOTC is saying all kinds of stuff in the name of "inclusivity," yet the price of the cards is a far bigger source of exclusion than the gender identity of the fictional, fantasy character on a card.

Also, let's be very honest about MtG economics. It's not a legit free market. Free market capitalism assumes that everyone has access to the same information. That is why insider trading is generally considered bad. Some people get to find out ahead of time when things are being reprinted. Certain companies get a heads up in order to get an advantage.

The only reason why I'm concerned about the monetary value of my modern collection, is because I'd like to have the opportunity to convert that value into different modern decks if I feel like it. It isn't a financial investment that I'm going to retire on down the road, that's silly. And even if I did have a silly notion like that, there's always the reserved list to invest in. I'm not exactly sure why people care much about the "value" of their collection decreasing if it leads to increasing their overall collection, and most likely an influx in new players to compete against.

I've played a ton of other card games, and nearly every LCG from FFG, and the vast majority of that player base doesn't play Magic, or are former players, and it's almost across the board because of the price involved in staying competitive

Quote from Skitzafreak »

Quote from idSurge »

Print more sets like 2017. Its really simple.

Let us say that every year they print a set like Modern Masters 2017. Every single year, the price of all the cards in the set will decrease as more cards that people are looking for are added to the supply. This will continue until we have a situation like Masters 25, where you have maybe 5 cards that put you ahead of the cost of the pack, and everything else is *****. And this time, it will be because of the simple fact that everything has been printed into oblivion.

It really isn't that simple.

They dont ALL have to be like 2017, but between Eternal, Iconic, and A25....did any of them really come close? Its not just about value, its about cards that need to be in good numbers 'in the wild'.

A sets 'chase lands' shouldnt be filters.

there has to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.

its not like wizards is sitting there thinking "we HAVE to be able to sell $10 packs". that is just the highest price point they deem acceptable to where a sufficient number of people will buy the product.

in the event that more high value reprints are done, and no one wants to shell out 10 bucks per pack on a masters product because a bunch of cards across the board are just lower in value - then the solution is simple. lower the cost of the packs.

i know preserving collection values is important to a lot of people. i think wotc should take measures to safeguard this aspect because the customer loyalty, especially the kind found in magic players, is a precious commodity -- but only to an extent. at the end of the day people need to realize that it is an entirely selfish motivation. if the benefits of bringing new players to the game, getting more customers, and increasing brand visibility to a wider audience is high enough to offset the risk of losing some number of established/loyal customers then wotc would be foolish to ignore that.

if people seriously want magic the gathering to stick around for another 25 years they have to push growth. a strong customer base of middle-aged players may seem fine right now, but the moment young players stop showing up to FNM's because they cant maintain interest in such a high costing hobby - well thats the moment when the game begins to die.

Just a question for you guys : I've seen several websites (Face to Face, Gamekeeper, etc.) selling Jace the Mind Sculptor at 130$ CAD dor the FTV:20 edition, which is a foil. All other non-foils are over 140$ for Masters 25 et even 160$ for Worldwake. Why is that printing held in such low esteem / value?

Quote from tronix »

there has to be a way to have our cake and eat it too.

its not like wizards is sitting there thinking "we HAVE to be able to sell $10 packs". that is just the highest price point they deem acceptable to where a sufficient number of people will buy the product.

in the event that more high value reprints are done, and no one wants to shell out 10 bucks per pack on a masters product because a bunch of cards across the board are just lower in value - then the solution is simple. lower the cost of the packs.

i know preserving collection values is important to a lot of people. i think wotc should take measures to safeguard this aspect because the customer loyalty, especially the kind found in magic players, is a precious commodity -- but only to an extent. at the end of the day people need to realize that it is an entirely selfish motivation. if the benefits of bringing new players to the game, getting more customers, and increasing brand visibility to a wider audience is high enough to offset the risk of losing some number of established/loyal customers then wotc would be foolish to ignore that.

if people seriously want magic the gathering to stick around for another 25 years they have to push growth. a strong customer base of middle-aged players may seem fine right now, but the moment young players stop showing up to FNM's because they cant maintain interest in such a high costing hobby - well thats the moment when the game begins to die.

The trick here, tronix, is that you talk about a collection value being PRESERVED. ***** is shooting through the roof right now. It's one thing to buy a $30 card and wanting to at least be able to sell it for $20-25 down the road if you want. It's another thing to want it to go up to $40 in a couple years. Expecting it to double in value and never wanting it to go back down is irrational because WOTC is under zero obligation to maintain that.

And when you consider that MtG is way less popular than hearthstone, a game where your collection has zero economic value, the Chronicles argument is far more limited than some people want us to believe.

At this point the whole price issue is caused by a select few cards being heavily played and an opposing reprint philosophy that is anti-thetical to the constructed format. Prices would likely be better both standard and modern if the company dropped moderns price wall. We need more room for experimentation in paper and not just online, including casual discovery. A lot of people don't test with proxies,

Quote from TomCourtenay »

Just a question for you guys : I've seen several websites (Face to Face, Gamekeeper, etc.) selling Jace the Mind Sculptor at 130$ CAD dor the FTV:20 edition, which is a foil. All other non-foils are over 140$ for Masters 25 et even 160$ for Worldwake. Why is that printing held in such low esteem / value?

they used a different foiling process for the FTV jaces. which ive heard is of poor quality. so it looks slightly different, and allegedly curls easily (moisture bends the card, all foils have this problem to some extent).

Quote from BlueTronFTW »

The trick here, tronix, is that you talk about a collection value being PRESERVED. ***** is shooting through the roof right now. It's one thing to buy a $30 card and wanting to at least be able to sell it for $20-25 down the road if you want. It's another thing to want it to go up to $40 in a couple years. Expecting it to double in value and never wanting it to go back down is irrational because WOTC is under zero obligation to maintain that.

And when you consider that MtG is way less popular than hearthstone, a game where your collection has zero economic value, the Chronicles argument is far more limited than some people want us to believe.

yeah i get your point. i was just acknowledging that some amount of people care about their cards retaining value or actually appreciating over time, no matter how irrational or ultimately selfish it is. there are also others who dont care as much, but still find comfort and suffer less buyers remorse when they buy into expensive cards.

while wotc has no explicit obligation to these people, it still behooves them to pay attention to what their customers care about. the type of people who buy into the game for thousands of dollars are showing substantial commitment and loyalty to wizards of the coast. which is a commodity that companies squander at their own risk.

however it might be getting to the point (or is already at the point) where wotc just has to nut up and say "sorry guys, we value your commitment to the game, but we gotta make decisions that are better for the future of the game".

Quote from tronix »

Quote from TomCourtenay »

Just a question for you guys : I've seen several websites (Face to Face, Gamekeeper, etc.) selling Jace the Mind Sculptor at 130$ CAD dor the FTV:20 edition, which is a foil. All other non-foils are over 140$ for Masters 25 et even 160$ for Worldwake. Why is that printing held in such low esteem / value?

they used a different foiling process for the FTV jaces. which ive heard is of poor quality. so it looks slightly different, and allegedly curls easily (moisture bends the card, all foils have this problem to some extent).

Well, it's like mtg cards are now being intentionally crafted to require sleeves compared to other card games. The feel of the stock is very poor compared to the final fantasy Tcg and Force of Will. That's why I don't feel the stance of cards holding high value on newer printings really holds water.

Quote from Colt47 »

Quote from tronix »

Quote from TomCourtenay »

Just a question for you guys : I've seen several websites (Face to Face, Gamekeeper, etc.) selling Jace the Mind Sculptor at 130$ CAD dor the FTV:20 edition, which is a foil. All other non-foils are over 140$ for Masters 25 et even 160$ for Worldwake. Why is that printing held in such low esteem / value?

they used a different foiling process for the FTV jaces. which ive heard is of poor quality. so it looks slightly different, and allegedly curls easily (moisture bends the card, all foils have this problem to some extent).

Well, it's like mtg cards are now being intentionally crafted to require sleeves compared to other card games. The feel of the stock is very poor compared to the final fantasy Tcg and Force of Will. That's why I don't feel the stance of cards holding high value on newer printings really holds water.

What is that? Are you asking me to pull out my tinfoil hat and suggest that card stock is intentionally failing to trigger sales of sleeves from the large companies that also often buy lots of magic product and/or sponsor pro teams?! Tinfoilhat Bluetron awaaaaaay!

Seriously, though, I think they are just cheap. Any publicly traded company has to not only show revenue and profit, but growth. Magic has a ceiling to its growth because it is a complicated game that requires substantial capital to play over a year or more especially in constructed. If you can't show boosts through increased sales, you cut costs, and cardstock is one of the easiest targets. Payroll is probably at the top of the list, but honestly I don't think anybody at WOTC will ever get fired, let alone laid off.

Quote from Colt47 »

Well, it's like mtg cards are now being intentionally crafted to require sleeves compared to other card games. The feel of the stock is very poor compared to the final fantasy Tcg and Force of Will. That's why I don't feel the stance of cards holding high value on newer printings really holds water.

what? the only way that would make sense is if wotc was in collusion with sleeve producers. otherwise poor card quality would be an unintentional side effect of cutting costs. its not like wotc went to the production facility and said "hey guys, make sure to make this next print run especially crappy."

also sleeves are already required for any competitive REL tournament (if im not mistaken). if some player wants to take an unsleeved deck to some weekly casual gathering and exploit the difference in card qualities to gain some advantage...well...that person is an idiot.

i wasnt aware that newer printings held more value. seems kinda counter intuitive.

I think Colt is saying 'because the quality is lower, you need sleeves' which may be true with the easier bending going on.

Wizards changed card stock provider, I believe.

As to new printings holding value, some people thought the hologram may do it, but whatever.

For what its worth my Field of Ruin play set feels worse (or did before I sleeved them) and thats the newest card I have.

i guess. i was just confused by the phrase "intentionally crafting", which would require a direct purpose. no business ever wants to offer a worse quality product. it is just something that happens because of other decisions.

edit: i guess i should also add that i havent personally noticed anything different. i very rarely handle unsleeved cards for any significant portion of time, but yeh. the only time ive felt something was off was when i bought some random korean booster (cant even remember the set). the cards felt noticeably thinner.

Quote from tronix »

i guess. i was just confused by the phrase "intentionally crafting", which would require a direct purpose. no business ever wants to offer a worse quality product. it is just something that happens because of other decisions.

edit: i guess i should also add that i havent personally noticed anything different. i very rarely handle unsleeved cards for any significant portion of time, but yeh. the only time ive felt something was off was when i bought some random korean booster (cant even remember the set). the cards felt noticeably thinner.

Yeah, I blame my phone for the mishap on that one. I think older printings are more durable than the newer ones.

Quote from tronix »

i guess. i was just confused by the phrase "intentionally crafting", which would require a direct purpose. no business ever wants to offer a worse quality product. it is just something that happens because of other decisions.

edit: i guess i should also add that i havent personally noticed anything different. i very rarely handle unsleeved cards for any significant portion of time, but yeh. the only time ive felt something was off was when i bought some random korean booster (cant even remember the set). the cards felt noticeably thinner.

I'd actually argue against your first point with planned obsolescence. Companies who produce product that you know will need to be replaced are rewarded by forcing people to "re-buy" that product more often. From washing machines to the very public iPhone-fiasco, I don't think you can just state that companies never intentionally produce worse product. They might have explanations, cutting costs, new manufacturer, etc. But there are definitely cases where, behind the scenes, a decision was made to capitalize on poorer product.

Quote from 13055 »

I'd actually argue against your first point with planned obsolescence. Companies who produce product that you know will need to be replaced are rewarded by forcing people to "re-buy" that product more often. From washing machines to the very public iPhone-fiasco, I don't think you can just state that companies never intentionally produce worse product. They might have explanations, cutting costs, new manufacturer, etc. But there are definitely cases where, behind the scenes, a decision was made to capitalize on poorer product.

fair point. ill concede that it is something that can and does happen.

not very applicable to products like mtg cards though. like adding some slow acting dissolving agent into the ink that eventually makes them not fit to be played in tournaments. though that idea rates closer to B-movie villain status than anything else.

edit: they could also do other sinister things like ban the invocation masterpieces from tournament play. seriously, i hate those things. you need like a phd in typography to read the card names.

if people seriously want magic the gathering to stick around for another 25 years they have to push growth. a strong customer base of middle-aged players may seem fine right now, but the moment young players stop showing up to FNM's because they cant maintain interest in such a high costing hobby - well thats the moment when the game begins to die.

I wanted to highlight this quote from Tronix. It is dead on and WotC should heed these words. And I'm one of those "middle-aged" players as well. That doesn't mean the game has to go to Pokemon level goofiness, but it needs to attract new blood. And the younger generation is being swayed by electronic games/media. Wizards should try to tie these two together, not separate them.