When AV was legal, almost every single game started with a turn 1 Thoughtseize or AV, except in post-board situations when the Faeries player would turn 1 Peppersmoke or Deathmark on the draw against aggro. If none of these things happened, the Faeries player was probably an idiot who didn't understand how to mulligan.
On turn 2, a large amount of the time a Bitterblossom would come down. There were decent counters in the format, but most of the time it would resolve anyways because there wasn't a Spell Snare, and because Mana Tithe was ridiculously hard to cast for a blue deck (the tribal duals were freaking random colors, and the UW dual lands at the time were the painland and Nimbus Maze). So if Blossom was on the play, it always resolved, and if Blossom was on the draw against countermagic, the Thoughtseize probably took away the Rune Snag on turn 1 anyways, so Blossom probably resolved. But even if there was no Blossom on turn 2, there probably was an AV on turn 1 so the Faeries player could just sit back and draw 3 cards.
Then you factor in that the deck was made from tricks and 2-for-1s, so if the opponent wasn't a very knowledgeable and experienced pilot who has played with Faeries a lot himself, he probably was going to run into Spellstutters for countering or into Mistbind Clique traps (upkeep or in combat) or into Scion traps, not to mention all the things that can always go wrong against Cryptic Command. And if you ever played a removal spell on a Faerie while the opponent has 4 mana open, he could hide it under a Clique and 2-for-1 you that way, too. So, with all of these tricks, and then the fact that ~7/25 of the manabase were manlands, the learning curve for facing Faeries was astronomically sloped.
And then, on top of that, Cryptic Command and Mistbind Clique were both full-blown Time Walks. So if the Faeries player had a clock on board and wanted to race, he probably could win the race very easily--anybody can win a race when their opponent's car is broken down on the side of the road.
Think about what it's like to die to a Snapcaster Mage and a Pestermite clocking you for a few turns each, from Splinter Twin. That's Faeries, every single game where it doesn't have a Bitterblossom. When it does have a Bitterblossom, they don't even have to cast other spells in many scenarios because Blossom already does so much to the game state. Want an example of how that works? Look at Standard. Pack Rat owns a large chunk of that format (before Born of the Gods changes things), and Pack Rat makes you pay more mana for each token. Blossom just does it for free. And in that Standard, the best enchantment removal was literally Wispmare. I'm not kidding. That was it. Eventually, the next block rotated out AV and brought in Esper Charm and Volcanic Fallout, but that still wasn't enough, so they printed Great Sable Stag for one core set only to end the reign of terror--but then Faeries still was an amazing deck. Oh, you have a 3/3 guy I can't counter, remove with my blue/black spells, or block with my blue/black creatures? I'll just race it, tap it with Cryptic, block with 2 Mutavaults, block with a Mutavault and then save it with Mistbind Clique (by the way, you don't get to cast spells in your second main phase now), or cast these Lightning Bolts that I easily splashed red for.
And then, in addition to everything else, if Faeries is a deck you can kiss planeswalkers goodbye. They never stick around. I'm actually a big fan of this effect; I hate the Hell out of planeswalkers, but for anyone who enjoys playing with them--well, most of them are going to get the tar beaten out of them within a turn or two of landing, if they even resolve.
Blossom at least has answers now, but if you don't have that answer quickly the card gets way out of hand. Even if it just makes 3 guys, gets removed, and the 3 guys get removed by a sweeper, that's a 2-for-1 that took less mana than whatever you used to clean it up. Even if you 1-for-1 with Blossom and the tokens chump 3 times, it's still probably going to put the Faeries player in a very safe position.
You guys know about how Stoneforge and Jace TMS got banned in Standard? Well, when Faeries was around, they tried the "let's print a bunch of hosers and see if they work" method, and that's how they learned that method doesn't work. (That, and Jund...whoever invented Cascade should be taken out back and shot by General Dreedle.) Sure, Stoneforge/Jace Standard had the lowest tournament attendance, but the game had been declining for a while because of Faeries and then Jund.
Maybe Bitterblossom could be fair in Modern. Or, maybe it could just ruin the format. Either way, I have a theory that the only people who want it back are old Faeries players.
(Current faeries players tyvm Enjoyed faeries then, still play and like the deck now). But realistically it never leaves you. CrazyMike basically outlined the capabilities as a player that the deck appeals to...I LOVE finding all the avenues of tight play in game and tweaking my deck for an environment outside the game...so being rewarded by the deck i play for it makes me play/like the deck more. honestly I'm just looking forward to the challenge of seeing how modern, as an interesting format, handles the deck, but in its current state the core card of the deck needs tribal synergy. I think if faeries weren't treated as limited fodder in return to ravnica, a bitterblossom unban wouldbt be thirsted for as much as it is (shoot, I'd probably have played cloud of faeries in fae-blade if it was printed)
but thank you for the trip down memory lane...makes me anxious to see what games will be remembered in the future. I might honestly like to go a few rounds against you with the deck since you have such knowledge of the deck engine though; that would be an interesting modern game. That is what it takes to make a good game though. Having the knowledge of what the opponent is attempting to do, and the interest to test/tweak to handle that better. I say unban either of these, but not both, players of the deck just needs one, both would be too advantageous with what we have access to.
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Personal preference: Unban Bloodbraid Elf and Punishing Fire.
It's time for Jund to be a deck again.
It's one of my favorite decks of all time, but this is just absurd. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see BBE unbanned, but lets be honest with ourselves about just how ridiculous that card makes Jund.
If you cast BBE in legacy right now, you're almost guaranteed to win the game. If not, then you're in the process of pulling very far ahead of your opponent.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
i love your post, i-never-smile. it literally made me smile (haha)... i salivated at the thought of out playing my opponent. the mid-combat clique, what separates the men from the boys playing the deck..
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I voted for Ancestral Visions to come off (but NOT Bitterblossom), and the more I think about the less sure I am that it would be a good idea. They both represent 1-card engines that are as powerful, if not more powerful, than existing engines in the format. I'm sure the world wouldn't end if they came off, but it would certainly change the format as we know it. I'm pretty confident after much reflection that wizards will leave these 2 alone, for now.
Ancestral Vision is 3 cards on turn 5 at best, while Bitterblossom has been repeatably tested and it is safe. Neither of them are too strong for Modern.
Personal preference: Unban Bloodbraid Elf and Punishing Fire.
It's time for Jund to be a deck again.
It is already a Tie 1 deck. You are suggesting giving it the tools to be 50% of the format and make control and tempo nonexistent. I hope that you are trolling, because otherwise you have no idea what you're talking about.
Maybe Bitterblossom could be fair in Modern. Or, maybe it could just ruin the format. Either way, I have a theory that the only people who want it back are old Faeries players.
I want it back, and I don't even want to play Faeries. I want Polymorph, 8-Rack, and WB Tokens to get a boost.
Wild Nacatl (Naya zoo is NOT faster than affinity)
Chrome Mox (some decent non-green mana acceleration should exist, and this card always risks a 2-for-1, ESPECIALLY with abrupt decay being so popular. Affinity should NOT be the only deck in the format with a mox... and one that has basically zero drawbacks in that deck, to boot)
Preordain (seriously. it's fine. I'd like to see ponder off the list also, but I'd settle for just the one)
sensei's divining top (the only reason this should be banned is because of counterbalance. I say bring the top back, and ban counterbalance instead).
I have some other pet cards on the list, but I get why they are there. And honestly, I wouldn't even be playing any of the cards I think should be unbanned.
Chrome Mox isn't coming off. It makes combo decks far too fast.
Also, top isn't coming off either. It was banned for time reasons, I am sure that Countertop would be fine in Modern. Also, Miracles might be too strong with it.
My requests were simple. Unban BB and Wild Nacatle...then wait awhile and see what happens. If it looks safe to unban more cards, then WotC can push a little further. Honestly, I think the modern format is fine. I mean yeah, Jund is the best deck but there is always going to be a best deck, all in all i think the format is pretty healthy. Talking about a DRS ban is just rediculous since its no where close to being oppressive. Results clearly show you do not need DRS to win a modern tournament, and there are many competitive strategies that dont play it.
Personal preference: Unban Bloodbraid Elf and Punishing Fire.
It's time for Jund to be a deck again.
Did you really just say that? Jund is still the best deck in the format. The consensus is that Jund actually needs to be nerfed, and that DRS is the most likely candidate for a ban, and more likely to get banned than any card is to get unbanned. It's not as if Jund consistently tops and never really changes the list. Yeah, maybe some day someone decides not to splash white but that's not much.
Wild Nacatl (Naya zoo is NOT faster than affinity)
Chrome Mox (some decent non-green mana acceleration should exist, and this card always risks a 2-for-1, ESPECIALLY with abrupt decay being so popular. Affinity should NOT be the only deck in the format with a mox... and one that has basically zero drawbacks in that deck, to boot)
Preordain (seriously. it's fine. I'd like to see ponder off the list also, but I'd settle for just the one)
sensei's divining top (the only reason this should be banned is because of counterbalance. I say bring the top back, and ban counterbalance instead).
I have some other pet cards on the list, but I get why they are there. And honestly, I wouldn't even be playing any of the cards I think should be unbanned.
We're fine with Affinity being the only deck with Mox because it's not broken. Chrome Mox leads to really fast combos and lets you win a turn earlier than you normally would be able to. Even as a 2-for-1, decks like Storm would welcome Chrome Mox. A 2-for-1 is only bad if you need the cards, but most combo decks have dead cards in hand and don't require a fist full of cards. Even in Storm, they generally don't need a full hand of cards since they can draw their entire deck in a turn.
There's no way Ponder and Preordain come off the list together. The CA provided by one is strong enough. I would wager Preordain before Ponder simply because it's the lesser of the evils so to speak.
Top is still very good on its own. And it will make control mirrors last forever. Control mirrors in Standard go to time all the time, since the games are really long. But anyways, Counterbalance isn't a problem as it stands, but Top potentially could be. I'll definitely brew Miracles in Modern if you let me. I'm not convinced how good it will be with a lack of Brainstorm but I think the raw power level will be there.
Don't forget, Top was also banned because it made combo really strong too. In Legacy it's far too slow for a deck like Storm that can win on turn 1, but in Modern it seems very reasonable. For 1 mana it lets you fix your top deck and draw a card if you want, which is huge. Especially if Preordain or Ponder come off, you'll let the combo deck shuffle away the dead Top when they're going off. It's also a card that comes into play before drawing a card, and doesn't draw on the same turn necessarily, so now when you go off you've got one free draw. Granted it's somewhat counter productive with Pyromancer's Ascension but it's still solid enough in that deck, and great in every other combo deck.
I can see the kitty cat getting put off the ban list as well as DRS being added on. Apart from that I don't see any changes happening.
I'd love to see Bitterblossom off the list just to see if any new decks sprout out of it and to see if BW Tokens becomes a tier 1 deck instead of just 1.5. Even before the pre-ban price spike I'm still confused as to why BB cost so much money, is the casual demand for it so high? It doesn't see play in many Legacy decks.
If Top gets unbanned combo decks get better and we might actually get a true control deck into Modern, something it lacks and would help counter the ensuing growth of combo decks.
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Top was banned due to time constraints. It eats up too much time during tournaments, akin to Second Sunrise.
The card is not to powerful, as such. It's just that it with it we might as well bring F6 stamps when going to tournaments.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Yes, top is lame@$$ to the infinitum with fetches and other shuffle effects.
But some people like to stall and grind out the games, that's why they ask for its unban. Others want to play legacy miracles in modern.
When AV was legal, almost every single game started with a turn 1 Thoughtseize or AV, except in post-board situations when the Faeries player would turn 1 Peppersmoke or Deathmark on the draw against aggro. If none of these things happened, the Faeries player was probably an idiot who didn't understand how to mulligan.
On turn 2, a large amount of the time a Bitterblossom would come down. There were decent counters in the format, but most of the time it would resolve anyways because there wasn't a Spell Snare, and because Mana Tithe was ridiculously hard to cast for a blue deck (the tribal duals were freaking random colors, and the UW dual lands at the time were the painland and Nimbus Maze). So if Blossom was on the play, it always resolved, and if Blossom was on the draw against countermagic, the Thoughtseize probably took away the Rune Snag on turn 1 anyways, so Blossom probably resolved. But even if there was no Blossom on turn 2, there probably was an AV on turn 1 so the Faeries player could just sit back and draw 3 cards.
Then you factor in that the deck was made from tricks and 2-for-1s, so if the opponent wasn't a very knowledgeable and experienced pilot who has played with Faeries a lot himself, he probably was going to run into Spellstutters for countering or into Mistbind Clique traps (upkeep or in combat) or into Scion traps, not to mention all the things that can always go wrong against Cryptic Command. And if you ever played a removal spell on a Faerie while the opponent has 4 mana open, he could hide it under a Clique and 2-for-1 you that way, too. So, with all of these tricks, and then the fact that ~7/25 of the manabase were manlands, the learning curve for facing Faeries was astronomically sloped.
And then, on top of that, Cryptic Command and Mistbind Clique were both full-blown Time Walks. So if the Faeries player had a clock on board and wanted to race, he probably could win the race very easily--anybody can win a race when their opponent's car is broken down on the side of the road.
Think about what it's like to die to a Snapcaster Mage and a Pestermite clocking you for a few turns each, from Splinter Twin. That's Faeries, every single game where it doesn't have a Bitterblossom. When it does have a Bitterblossom, they don't even have to cast other spells in many scenarios because Blossom already does so much to the game state. Want an example of how that works? Look at Standard. Pack Rat owns a large chunk of that format (before Born of the Gods changes things), and Pack Rat makes you pay more mana for each token. Blossom just does it for free. And in that Standard, the best enchantment removal was literally Wispmare. I'm not kidding. That was it. Eventually, the next block rotated out AV and brought in Esper Charm and Volcanic Fallout, but that still wasn't enough, so they printed Great Sable Stag for one core set only to end the reign of terror--but then Faeries still was an amazing deck. Oh, you have a 3/3 guy I can't counter, remove with my blue/black spells, or block with my blue/black creatures? I'll just race it, tap it with Cryptic, block with 2 Mutavaults, block with a Mutavault and then save it with Mistbind Clique (by the way, you don't get to cast spells in your second main phase now), or cast these Lightning Bolts that I easily splashed red for.
And then, in addition to everything else, if Faeries is a deck you can kiss planeswalkers goodbye. They never stick around. I'm actually a big fan of this effect; I hate the Hell out of planeswalkers, but for anyone who enjoys playing with them--well, most of them are going to get the tar beaten out of them within a turn or two of landing, if they even resolve.
Blossom at least has answers now, but if you don't have that answer quickly the card gets way out of hand. Even if it just makes 3 guys, gets removed, and the 3 guys get removed by a sweeper, that's a 2-for-1 that took less mana than whatever you used to clean it up. Even if you 1-for-1 with Blossom and the tokens chump 3 times, it's still probably going to put the Faeries player in a very safe position.
You guys know about how Stoneforge and Jace TMS got banned in Standard? Well, when Faeries was around, they tried the "let's print a bunch of hosers and see if they work" method, and that's how they learned that method doesn't work. (That, and Jund...whoever invented Cascade should be taken out back and shot by General Dreedle.) Sure, Stoneforge/Jace Standard had the lowest tournament attendance, but the game had been declining for a while because of Faeries and then Jund.
Maybe Bitterblossom could be fair in Modern. Or, maybe it could just ruin the format. Either way, I have a theory that the only people who want it back are old Faeries players.
Hello I never played faeries and don't plan to if it gets unbanned. With that explanation some people will wonder why no one plays it in legacy.
Tier 1.5 at most without AV.
Yes, top is lame@$$ to the infinitum with fetches and other shuffle effects.
But some people like to stall and grind out the games, that's why they ask for its unban. Others want to play legacy miracles in modern.
Hello I never played faeries and don't plan to if it gets unbanned. With that explanation some people will wonder why no one plays it in legacy.
Tier 1.5 at most without AV.
There was significant emphasis on how little the Standard seasons of Coldsnap-Lorwyn and Lorwyn-Alara were able to keep a more or less block deck down.
I want it back, and I don't even want to play Faeries. I want Polymorph, 8-Rack, and WB Tokens to get a boost.
If you get Bitterblossom in the format, your Polymorph deck will just get destroyed by Faeries. The Standard version of Faeries played like 20+ maindeck answers to Polymorph and also put a big clock onto you. Plus, your Bitterblossom will lose to theirs because of Scion, if the game comes down to BB vs BB.
Also, top isn't coming off either. It was banned for time reasons, I am sure that Countertop would be fine in Modern. Also, Miracles might be too strong with it.
Countertop would be fine in Modern. Top wasn't banned because of power level; it was banned because of bad players at PTQs. Seriously, it was banned in Extended and then stayed banned through the creation of Modern because too many people take too long to manipulate the top 3 cards of their deck. On top of that, Top inevitably goes alongside fetches, so you have people topping and shuffling and then topping every single turn. But mainly, the problem is people who just can't for the life of them remember the top 3 cards of their deck. And some people simply don't understand how to fetch and shuffle efficiently enough to not stall out their match in a tournament. That's why Top isn't around.
I for one do not think top is safe for power level reasons in addition to time reasons, mostly because its absolutely insane with Miracles and Counterbalance. I am glad its gone from the format because CounterTop is the most miserable thing to play against, and its something that doesn't belong in Modern.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Counter-top wouldnt be increedibly broken in Modern but Miracles definitely would be.
I think people are taking Miracles way to seriously. Even with Top it's just a deck. A durdly deck that takes almost forever to set up a win, but a deck all the same.
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I could've sworn aggro experienced a mass extinction event in Legacy once Terminus entered the picture.
It's so ridiculously undercosted once you can guarantee the Miracle.
Then again Legacy has Brainstorm.
I dunno if I ever mentioned this to you guys but it's one of those things I fear that unbanned JTMS would be used for. Sure, he's powerful and full of utility, but I really do feel like one of the big applications he'd find is to pave way for Modern Miracles. A 4 mana Brainstorm is still a Brainstorm!
Ancestral Vision is 3 cards on turn 5 at best, while Bitterblossom has been repeatably tested and it is safe. Neither of them are too strong for Modern.
Again, I voted for AV to come off, so I obviously think it has some potential to be reasonably fair in Modern. But whenever you draw 3 cards with it, it's still value for 1 mana. Turn 5 happens to be the time when you generally start running out of cards, which makes it pretty convenient timing. Drawing 3 cards with one spell is just so powerful that the delay is barely enough to keep it in check. The only thing that makes it reasonable in my mind is the lack of Brainstorm and Force to ditch extra copies. But the first one (especially on turn 1) is still pretty potent.
Who tested Bitterblossom and decided it was safe? The Thought Police?
Also, Countertop would be fine in Modern? Really? Top's time-consuming nature is one reason it's banned, but its power is probably still the #1 reason. I'm pretty sure that Countertop would be yet another oppressive shell if it were legal, as Abrupt Decay is about the only card that really breaks through the soft-like easily. Jund vs. Countertop does not sound like a diverse meta.
Voted for Wild Nacatl, Preordain, GSZ, Jace, Bitterblossom, Ancestral Visions.
Realistically, I don't see GSZ or Jace coming off the unbanned list, but i'd love it if they did.
As much as I hate to say it, unless a bunch of other decks become viable with unbans, DRS should be banned. The card is ridiculous. If DRS is fine being legal in modern then so are half the cards on the banned list.
If you get Bitterblossom in the format, your Polymorph deck will just get destroyed by Faeries. The Standard version of Faeries played like 20+ maindeck answers to Polymorph and also put a big clock onto you. Plus, your Bitterblossom will lose to theirs because of Scion, if the game comes down to BB vs BB.
Countertop would be fine in Modern. Top wasn't banned because of power level; it was banned because of bad players at PTQs. Seriously, it was banned in Extended and then stayed banned through the creation of Modern because too many people take too long to manipulate the top 3 cards of their deck. On top of that, Top inevitably goes alongside fetches, so you have people topping and shuffling and then topping every single turn. But mainly, the problem is people who just can't for the life of them remember the top 3 cards of their deck. And some people simply don't understand how to fetch and shuffle efficiently enough to not stall out their match in a tournament. That's why Top isn't around.
Shuffling is automatic on mtgo and top is still a pain.
Also, Countertop would be fine in Modern? Really? Top's time-consuming nature is one reason it's banned, but its power is probably still the #1 reason. I'm pretty sure that Countertop would be yet another oppressive shell if it were legal, as Abrupt Decay is about the only card that really breaks through the soft-like easily. Jund vs. Countertop does not sound like a diverse meta.
It's not that simple, assembling Counter-Top. Even if you aim at having it functional on turn 4 that still leaves a good 3 turns to fight it out. Firstly, there is discard from Jund and counters from most blue decks. Secondly, some decks just don't care about it either because their main threats don't fall to it (Tron), or because they will just roll over you if you take your sweet time and tap out on turn 3 (Twin). Then there are the answers to the combination itself in the form of Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip and Quasali Pridemage. Mutavault and Aether Vial are also sweet solutions that can help you get out from under the lock, though you could add Cavern of Souls if you play a tribal heavy deck.
If you're not rushing it out, you still need to play a fair game of Magic before you manage to lock-up your opponent. They aren't exactly going to twiddle their thumbs while you go on about it.
In short, it probably wouldn't be oppressive as you make it out to be, but it would be time consuming, especially at high profile events and that was the point of the ban to begin with. If that particular reason slides, power alone wouldn't be enough to keep it on the banned list.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
When AV was legal, almost every single game started with a turn 1 Thoughtseize or AV, except in post-board situations when the Faeries player would turn 1 Peppersmoke or Deathmark on the draw against aggro. If none of these things happened, the Faeries player was probably an idiot who didn't understand how to mulligan.
On turn 2, a large amount of the time a Bitterblossom would come down. There were decent counters in the format, but most of the time it would resolve anyways because there wasn't a Spell Snare, and because Mana Tithe was ridiculously hard to cast for a blue deck (the tribal duals were freaking random colors, and the UW dual lands at the time were the painland and Nimbus Maze). So if Blossom was on the play, it always resolved, and if Blossom was on the draw against countermagic, the Thoughtseize probably took away the Rune Snag on turn 1 anyways, so Blossom probably resolved. But even if there was no Blossom on turn 2, there probably was an AV on turn 1 so the Faeries player could just sit back and draw 3 cards.
Then you factor in that the deck was made from tricks and 2-for-1s, so if the opponent wasn't a very knowledgeable and experienced pilot who has played with Faeries a lot himself, he probably was going to run into Spellstutters for countering or into Mistbind Clique traps (upkeep or in combat) or into Scion traps, not to mention all the things that can always go wrong against Cryptic Command. And if you ever played a removal spell on a Faerie while the opponent has 4 mana open, he could hide it under a Clique and 2-for-1 you that way, too. So, with all of these tricks, and then the fact that ~7/25 of the manabase were manlands, the learning curve for facing Faeries was astronomically sloped.
And then, on top of that, Cryptic Command and Mistbind Clique were both full-blown Time Walks. So if the Faeries player had a clock on board and wanted to race, he probably could win the race very easily--anybody can win a race when their opponent's car is broken down on the side of the road.
Think about what it's like to die to a Snapcaster Mage and a Pestermite clocking you for a few turns each, from Splinter Twin. That's Faeries, every single game where it doesn't have a Bitterblossom.
If they're so good without BB I guess they should see at least some fringe tier3 play... right...?
When it does have a Bitterblossom, they don't even have to cast other spells in many scenarios because Blossom already does so much to the game state. Want an example of how that works? Look at Standard. Pack Rat owns a large chunk of that format (before Born of the Gods changes things), and Pack Rat makes you pay more mana for each token. Blossom just does it for free. And in that Standard, the best enchantment removal was literally Wispmare. I'm not kidding. That was it. Eventually, the next block rotated out AV and brought in Esper Charm and Volcanic Fallout, but that still wasn't enough, so they printed Great Sable Stag for one core set only to end the reign of terror--but then Faeries still was an amazing deck. Oh, you have a 3/3 guy I can't counter, remove with my blue/black spells, or block with my blue/black creatures? I'll just race it, tap it with Cryptic, block with 2 Mutavaults, block with a Mutavault and then save it with Mistbind Clique (by the way, you don't get to cast spells in your second main phase now), or cast these Lightning Bolts that I easily splashed red for.
And then, in addition to everything else, if Faeries is a deck you can kiss planeswalkers goodbye. They never stick around. I'm actually a big fan of this effect; I hate the Hell out of planeswalkers, but for anyone who enjoys playing with them--well, most of them are going to get the tar beaten out of them within a turn or two of landing, if they even resolve.
Blossom at least has answers now, but if you don't have that answer quickly the card gets way out of hand. Even if it just makes 3 guys, gets removed, and the 3 guys get removed by a sweeper, that's a 2-for-1 that took less mana than whatever you used to clean it up. Even if you 1-for-1 with Blossom and the tokens chump 3 times, it's still probably going to put the Faeries player in a very safe position.
You guys know about how Stoneforge and Jace TMS got banned in Standard? Well, when Faeries was around, they tried the "let's print a bunch of hosers and see if they work" method, and that's how they learned that method doesn't work. (That, and Jund...whoever invented Cascade should be taken out back and shot by General Dreedle.) Sure, Stoneforge/Jace Standard had the lowest tournament attendance, but the game had been declining for a while because of Faeries and then Jund.
We're fine with Affinity being the only deck with Mox because it's not broken. Chrome Mox leads to really fast combos and lets you win a turn earlier than you normally would be able to. Even as a 2-for-1, decks like Storm would welcome Chrome Mox. A 2-for-1 is only bad if you need the cards, but most combo decks have dead cards in hand and don't require a fist full of cards. Even in Storm, they generally don't need a full hand of cards since they can draw their entire deck in a turn.
There's no way Ponder and Preordain come off the list together. The CA provided by one is strong enough. I would wager Preordain before Ponder simply because it's the lesser of the evils so to speak.
Top is still very good on its own. And it will make control mirrors last forever. Control mirrors in Standard go to time all the time, since the games are really long. But anyways, Counterbalance isn't a problem as it stands, but Top potentially could be. I'll definitely brew Miracles in Modern if you let me. I'm not convinced how good it will be with a lack of Brainstorm but I think the raw power level will be there.
Chrome mox probably breaks the "turn 4" rule, so you're right, I just feel that wizards should make combo hate a little better and maybe make it a "turn 3" rule instead. There are lots of storm hosers out there like thalia, the new spirit of the labrynth, canonist, gaddock teeg, and mindbreak trap... we need a few more cards like that that aren't white and chrome mox would be fine. Just my opinion.
You're probably right about preordain/ponder both coming off. I just don't see preordain being that scary, and at least it lets people make better use of delver and the miracle mechanic.
Top I just don't agree. I know their stated reason is time, but that's nonsense. If it doesn't take too much time in legacy (it doesn't), then it's fine for modern. Control mirrors always have and always will last forever. Going to time is one of the risks of playing control. And I don't agree that top would be good enough for combo.
Modern miracles, with top & preordain, but without counterbalance, brainstorm, jace, force of will, and stoneforge mystic, or the helm/RIP combo would be a cool deck, and a legit modern control deck. I'd love to see it. I think it would be good but not broken and not more dominant than jund/pod/tron/affinity.
Man I was so "relaxed" last night I don't remember if I posted anything about the spoiler, but at this point, after seeing all the cards, I'm convinced they're unbanning something, because this set is going to have basically no impact on modern....
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Man I was so "relaxed" last night I don't remember if I posted anything about the spoiler, but at this point, after seeing all the cards, I'm convinced they're unbanning something, because this set is going to have basically no impact on modern....
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Now is the time to test a couple unbannings. So far this block has had very little impact on modern. Unban something now, and if it causes a problem you can still fix it in the last set of Theros, or when M14 hits.
Yes, top is lame@$$ to the infinitum with fetches and other shuffle effects.
But some people like to stall and grind out the games, that's why they ask for its unban. Others want to play legacy miracles in modern.
Assuming unban top/ban counterbalance, modern miracles would look nothing like legacy miracles. You'd lose:
4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x counterbalance
4x swords
3-4x jace
1x helm
That's like half the deck, and the only card that can be sort of replaced is swords. Also, you'd be losing life fetching for shocklands.
(Current faeries players tyvm Enjoyed faeries then, still play and like the deck now). But realistically it never leaves you. CrazyMike basically outlined the capabilities as a player that the deck appeals to...I LOVE finding all the avenues of tight play in game and tweaking my deck for an environment outside the game...so being rewarded by the deck i play for it makes me play/like the deck more. honestly I'm just looking forward to the challenge of seeing how modern, as an interesting format, handles the deck, but in its current state the core card of the deck needs tribal synergy. I think if faeries weren't treated as limited fodder in return to ravnica, a bitterblossom unban wouldbt be thirsted for as much as it is (shoot, I'd probably have played cloud of faeries in fae-blade if it was printed)
but thank you for the trip down memory lane...makes me anxious to see what games will be remembered in the future. I might honestly like to go a few rounds against you with the deck since you have such knowledge of the deck engine though; that would be an interesting modern game. That is what it takes to make a good game though. Having the knowledge of what the opponent is attempting to do, and the interest to test/tweak to handle that better. I say unban either of these, but not both, players of the deck just needs one, both would be too advantageous with what we have access to.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
It's one of my favorite decks of all time, but this is just absurd. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see BBE unbanned, but lets be honest with ourselves about just how ridiculous that card makes Jund.
If you cast BBE in legacy right now, you're almost guaranteed to win the game. If not, then you're in the process of pulling very far ahead of your opponent.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Ancestral Vision is 3 cards on turn 5 at best, while Bitterblossom has been repeatably tested and it is safe. Neither of them are too strong for Modern.
It is already a Tie 1 deck. You are suggesting giving it the tools to be 50% of the format and make control and tempo nonexistent. I hope that you are trolling, because otherwise you have no idea what you're talking about.
I want it back, and I don't even want to play Faeries. I want Polymorph, 8-Rack, and WB Tokens to get a boost.
Chrome Mox isn't coming off. It makes combo decks far too fast.
Also, top isn't coming off either. It was banned for time reasons, I am sure that Countertop would be fine in Modern. Also, Miracles might be too strong with it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
Did you really just say that? Jund is still the best deck in the format. The consensus is that Jund actually needs to be nerfed, and that DRS is the most likely candidate for a ban, and more likely to get banned than any card is to get unbanned. It's not as if Jund consistently tops and never really changes the list. Yeah, maybe some day someone decides not to splash white but that's not much.
We're fine with Affinity being the only deck with Mox because it's not broken. Chrome Mox leads to really fast combos and lets you win a turn earlier than you normally would be able to. Even as a 2-for-1, decks like Storm would welcome Chrome Mox. A 2-for-1 is only bad if you need the cards, but most combo decks have dead cards in hand and don't require a fist full of cards. Even in Storm, they generally don't need a full hand of cards since they can draw their entire deck in a turn.
There's no way Ponder and Preordain come off the list together. The CA provided by one is strong enough. I would wager Preordain before Ponder simply because it's the lesser of the evils so to speak.
Top is still very good on its own. And it will make control mirrors last forever. Control mirrors in Standard go to time all the time, since the games are really long. But anyways, Counterbalance isn't a problem as it stands, but Top potentially could be. I'll definitely brew Miracles in Modern if you let me. I'm not convinced how good it will be with a lack of Brainstorm but I think the raw power level will be there.
Don't forget, Top was also banned because it made combo really strong too. In Legacy it's far too slow for a deck like Storm that can win on turn 1, but in Modern it seems very reasonable. For 1 mana it lets you fix your top deck and draw a card if you want, which is huge. Especially if Preordain or Ponder come off, you'll let the combo deck shuffle away the dead Top when they're going off. It's also a card that comes into play before drawing a card, and doesn't draw on the same turn necessarily, so now when you go off you've got one free draw. Granted it's somewhat counter productive with Pyromancer's Ascension but it's still solid enough in that deck, and great in every other combo deck.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I'd love to see Bitterblossom off the list just to see if any new decks sprout out of it and to see if BW Tokens becomes a tier 1 deck instead of just 1.5. Even before the pre-ban price spike I'm still confused as to why BB cost so much money, is the casual demand for it so high? It doesn't see play in many Legacy decks.
If Top gets unbanned combo decks get better and we might actually get a true control deck into Modern, something it lacks and would help counter the ensuing growth of combo decks.
-Anonymous
The card is not to powerful, as such. It's just that it with it we might as well bring F6 stamps when going to tournaments.
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But some people like to stall and grind out the games, that's why they ask for its unban. Others want to play legacy miracles in modern.
Hello I never played faeries and don't plan to if it gets unbanned. With that explanation some people will wonder why no one plays it in legacy.
Tier 1.5 at most without AV.
There was significant emphasis on how little the Standard seasons of Coldsnap-Lorwyn and Lorwyn-Alara were able to keep a more or less block deck down.
Just saying.
If you get Bitterblossom in the format, your Polymorph deck will just get destroyed by Faeries. The Standard version of Faeries played like 20+ maindeck answers to Polymorph and also put a big clock onto you. Plus, your Bitterblossom will lose to theirs because of Scion, if the game comes down to BB vs BB.
Countertop would be fine in Modern. Top wasn't banned because of power level; it was banned because of bad players at PTQs. Seriously, it was banned in Extended and then stayed banned through the creation of Modern because too many people take too long to manipulate the top 3 cards of their deck. On top of that, Top inevitably goes alongside fetches, so you have people topping and shuffling and then topping every single turn. But mainly, the problem is people who just can't for the life of them remember the top 3 cards of their deck. And some people simply don't understand how to fetch and shuffle efficiently enough to not stall out their match in a tournament. That's why Top isn't around.
Gruul Aggro
EDH General:
Sydri, Galvanic Genius
Modern
Jeskai Control
Jeskai Midrange
Affinity
Esper Teachings
Tribal Zoo
I think people are taking Miracles way to seriously. Even with Top it's just a deck. A durdly deck that takes almost forever to set up a win, but a deck all the same.
You don't honestly think that Terminus, Entreat the Angels and probably Temporal Mastery are poised to break the format do you?
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It's so ridiculously undercosted once you can guarantee the Miracle.
Then again Legacy has Brainstorm.
I dunno if I ever mentioned this to you guys but it's one of those things I fear that unbanned JTMS would be used for. Sure, he's powerful and full of utility, but I really do feel like one of the big applications he'd find is to pave way for Modern Miracles. A 4 mana Brainstorm is still a Brainstorm!
Any miracle in your opening hand is essentially a mulligan.
Again, I voted for AV to come off, so I obviously think it has some potential to be reasonably fair in Modern. But whenever you draw 3 cards with it, it's still value for 1 mana. Turn 5 happens to be the time when you generally start running out of cards, which makes it pretty convenient timing. Drawing 3 cards with one spell is just so powerful that the delay is barely enough to keep it in check. The only thing that makes it reasonable in my mind is the lack of Brainstorm and Force to ditch extra copies. But the first one (especially on turn 1) is still pretty potent.
Who tested Bitterblossom and decided it was safe? The Thought Police?
Also, Countertop would be fine in Modern? Really? Top's time-consuming nature is one reason it's banned, but its power is probably still the #1 reason. I'm pretty sure that Countertop would be yet another oppressive shell if it were legal, as Abrupt Decay is about the only card that really breaks through the soft-like easily. Jund vs. Countertop does not sound like a diverse meta.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Realistically, I don't see GSZ or Jace coming off the unbanned list, but i'd love it if they did.
As much as I hate to say it, unless a bunch of other decks become viable with unbans, DRS should be banned. The card is ridiculous. If DRS is fine being legal in modern then so are half the cards on the banned list.
Shuffling is automatic on mtgo and top is still a pain.
It's not that simple, assembling Counter-Top. Even if you aim at having it functional on turn 4 that still leaves a good 3 turns to fight it out. Firstly, there is discard from Jund and counters from most blue decks. Secondly, some decks just don't care about it either because their main threats don't fall to it (Tron), or because they will just roll over you if you take your sweet time and tap out on turn 3 (Twin). Then there are the answers to the combination itself in the form of Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip and Quasali Pridemage. Mutavault and Aether Vial are also sweet solutions that can help you get out from under the lock, though you could add Cavern of Souls if you play a tribal heavy deck.
If you're not rushing it out, you still need to play a fair game of Magic before you manage to lock-up your opponent. They aren't exactly going to twiddle their thumbs while you go on about it.
In short, it probably wouldn't be oppressive as you make it out to be, but it would be time consuming, especially at high profile events and that was the point of the ban to begin with. If that particular reason slides, power alone wouldn't be enough to keep it on the banned list.
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If they're so good without BB I guess they should see at least some fringe tier3 play... right...?
You got one right at least
Tha madness! The end of modern
Chrome mox probably breaks the "turn 4" rule, so you're right, I just feel that wizards should make combo hate a little better and maybe make it a "turn 3" rule instead. There are lots of storm hosers out there like thalia, the new spirit of the labrynth, canonist, gaddock teeg, and mindbreak trap... we need a few more cards like that that aren't white and chrome mox would be fine. Just my opinion.
You're probably right about preordain/ponder both coming off. I just don't see preordain being that scary, and at least it lets people make better use of delver and the miracle mechanic.
Top I just don't agree. I know their stated reason is time, but that's nonsense. If it doesn't take too much time in legacy (it doesn't), then it's fine for modern. Control mirrors always have and always will last forever. Going to time is one of the risks of playing control. And I don't agree that top would be good enough for combo.
Modern miracles, with top & preordain, but without counterbalance, brainstorm, jace, force of will, and stoneforge mystic, or the helm/RIP combo would be a cool deck, and a legit modern control deck. I'd love to see it. I think it would be good but not broken and not more dominant than jund/pod/tron/affinity.
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Yeah that's what I was thinking. Now is the time to test a couple unbannings. So far this block has had very little impact on modern. Unban something now, and if it causes a problem you can still fix it in the last set of Theros, or when M14 hits.
Assuming unban top/ban counterbalance, modern miracles would look nothing like legacy miracles. You'd lose:
4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x counterbalance
4x swords
3-4x jace
1x helm
That's like half the deck, and the only card that can be sort of replaced is swords. Also, you'd be losing life fetching for shocklands.