And while you're paying 2B to make a rat, people are getting turn 3 Karns and comboing out with kiki jikis and splinter twins on turn 4-5
This isn't quite fair. There are plenty of durdly Modern decks that are trying to do fair things while an opponent does unfair things. They just happen to run disruption (Thoughtseize, IoK, Lilly, Leak, etc.) to mess with the unfair deck's plan while advancing their own. And in such a deck, I really think that Pack Rat could be a good card.
One area where Pack Rat shines is in the Jund mirror. It has the potential to just break this wide open, because Rat is very hard to remove when played with mana open. And Rat with an active Arena or Confidant is an absolute nightmare. The only way to answer the Rat is with a Pulse, but if they are Pulsing your Rat then they aren't pulsing your Lilly/Arena/Confidant, so you are still probably coming out ahead. The danger is that Rat can be "win more" and only strong in board positions where you are already ahead. That probably comes down to testing more than anything but hey, if the card is strong enough to show up in Legacy than it might be strong enough here.
I hope it does become popular, so I can Spell Snare many a Pack Rat--just to get my vengeance for what that card has done to Standard. Lol.
EDIT: Oh, Engineered Explosives completely decimates this card, and if it shows up in the mirror then people are just going to play more Maelstrom Pulse. So Pack Rat might show up and influence the format a little, but the format is built to deal with it.
So it sounds like a definite no for the rat. I was actually planning to put it into my Jund Deck, but seeing as how there is an overwhelming abundance of proof that it is a bad choice, I will seek out other things. Thanks for the replies!
Packrat is good because you know that every card you draw will increase your board presence at the very least. It is basically insurance for under developed formats with weaker card quality such as post rotation standard and limited. The only modern application I would do is training grounds packrat and mostly because it's just hilarious.
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The major problem with pack rat in modern is that it is not a boring format like standard where you can afford to tap 3 mana to activate it every turn. Even in Jund, which is the most likely home for it, you will be using your mana to activate shamans, cast goyfs, activate manlands, cast bolts etc. etc. etc.
Card quality is also much higher in modern, which means less useless jank to discard to pack rat. I find that pitching stuff to beef goyf up is interesting, and discarding excess thoughtseizes is pretty good. But, these cases tend to be not worth the effort.
Well in a rats deck it's not a bad card. Though tribal decks are always looked down on when people first introduce them to a format. Remember how Merfolk was never played?
I think if the right deck gets built it could be a very good card. People miss that it can get huge without paying anything extra.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Here's a Rack variant that I've been toying around with in my head that utilizes Pack Rat. I haven't sleeved this at all, and again, it's just been a thought so far, so take that for what it's worth (hint: not much).
No, please, anything but Pack Rat. I'm sick enough of losing to it in standard, I don't want to lose to a bloody Pack Rat in modern too!
My thoughts exactly. Although if I do see Pack Rat in Modern, my barrage of zoo animals will be ready to overrun it.
then a Thrumming Stone hits the battlefield followed by the onslaught of relentless (pack) rats running amok amongst your zoo creatures. Seriously I would love to see a Thrumming Stone deck with those rats become a thing.
Pack Rats to me occupies a much more late-game niche if anything. It improves your late game card draw quality by turning excess lands into usable creatures, much in the same way manlands give you bodies to grind out your opponent. Sure, you're bound to draw a land when you don't need it, but at least it can be useful now with Pack Rats. Being mana flooded late game is the worst thing that can happen.
I think it's alright to include a 1-of copy in say BW tokens (self explanatory), Rock (feed Scooze your discarded creatures), Loam-Junk (get lands, turn lands into tokens), and especially Rats Tribal (which was apparently a thing. An interesting homebrew no doubt).
I feel like in general, Pack Rats can occupy the same niche that Raven's Crime, Thundermaw Hellkite, and Hero of Bladehold do, which is late game cards that you want to topdeck into, that can give you an advantage beyond turn 5. Grindy cards are never bad to have. I'm going to try to test it out with some Sword of Feast and Famine to see if it can work.
Ah the story of the Pack Rat.
It went from being just an unbeatable bomb in Limited to being a dominating all-star in Standard and now it even has this thread in Modern.
I guess its too slow to do much in Modern but the story of it is pretty funny when you think about it.
Wow, I had no idea Pack Rat was Legacy playable. It looks like the deck is fueled largely by the power of Liliana and the synergy between her and Pack Rat. Now that we get Bitterblossom, that deck might be suited for a port into modern. Replace Jitte with a Sword (Light and Shadow? Feast and Famine? No idea), replace DRS with something, and figure out what to do about Chrome Mox. Contamination is also an absolute beast that has no ready replace in modern.
I think splashing White for Lingering Souls could be good, and having three kinds of tokens makes the deck less vulnerable to Maelstrom Pulse. Maybe add a Life from the Loam package?
I'm pretty convinced that it'll just end up as a flash-in-the-pan, even for the Deadguy decks that all seem to be running it right now. It seems hard to believe that there isn't a better option than friggin' Pack Rat for a WB grindy deck.
I could be wrong, though.
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Pack Rat is in the grey area for a playable card for me. On one hand, it can put crazy power on board. On the other, it would get removed before you get a chance to activate it once. If a person is unable to threat assess it correctly, they'll see three rats on a board, and probably die. I don't see that happening unless a person simply doesn't draw some form of answer, because people are aware of it due to the domination of standard.
Pack Rat is in the grey area for a playable card for me. On one hand, it can put crazy power on board. On the other, it would get removed before you get a chance to activate it once. If a person is unable to threat assess it correctly, they'll see three rats on a board, and probably die. I don't see that happening unless a person simply doesn't draw some form of answer, because people are aware of it due to the domination of standard.
To be fair the same argument could be made for everything. Tarmogoyf dies to removal too.
Sometimes they don't have it and if the game goes long and a lot of trading has taken place the chance that the rats can get out of control is high.
I see it more as a late game card that just puts the game away really fast at that point
Pack Rat is in the grey area for a playable card for me. On one hand, it can put crazy power on board. On the other, it would get removed before you get a chance to activate it once. If a person is unable to threat assess it correctly, they'll see three rats on a board, and probably die. I don't see that happening unless a person simply doesn't draw some form of answer, because people are aware of it due to the domination of standard.
You're not playing Pack Rat correctly if it gets removed before an activation.
If you want it to be your 2drop you need to start off with T1 discard to scout, otherwise it's your 5 drop.
You should watch a competent BGx players use it. It's terrifying and ends games as quickly as Goyf while also being really really good against single target removal.
I think in modern you have to look at Pack Rat as a 5 drop, leaving 3 open to make a token in response to the removal that will hit it.
Id probably play it either in UW or UR, or maybe esper. Some kind of grindy deck that wins by resolving a 2 drop threat that needs to be answered or you lose, so Bitterblossom, Pack rat, and maybe 1 more 2 drop "I win the game if you don't kill me" threat, anyone have a good idea?
UW also gives us lingering souls, so lingering souls, Pack Rat, Bitterblossom sounds like a nasty deck to deal with. If we want to be cute we can add in Intangible virtue for funsies.
UW Sorin seems good in the deck as well, looks like we are playing UW tokens I guess.
That means we need thoughtseize and Inquisition to protect our dudes from board wipes, and lets us know if it is safe to stick a turn 2 threat or wait til we have protection up.
So I guess the skeleton would be something like this:
I dont have premium but Sam Black is brewing with the rats and fae (like people are doing on MODO), i think we have yet to see the role of Pack Rat in modern...
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
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I dont have premium but Sam Black is brewing with the rats and fae (like people are doing on MODO), i think we have yet to see the role of Pack Rat in modern...
This isn't quite fair. There are plenty of durdly Modern decks that are trying to do fair things while an opponent does unfair things. They just happen to run disruption (Thoughtseize, IoK, Lilly, Leak, etc.) to mess with the unfair deck's plan while advancing their own. And in such a deck, I really think that Pack Rat could be a good card.
One area where Pack Rat shines is in the Jund mirror. It has the potential to just break this wide open, because Rat is very hard to remove when played with mana open. And Rat with an active Arena or Confidant is an absolute nightmare. The only way to answer the Rat is with a Pulse, but if they are Pulsing your Rat then they aren't pulsing your Lilly/Arena/Confidant, so you are still probably coming out ahead. The danger is that Rat can be "win more" and only strong in board positions where you are already ahead. That probably comes down to testing more than anything but hey, if the card is strong enough to show up in Legacy than it might be strong enough here.
EDIT: Oh, Engineered Explosives completely decimates this card, and if it shows up in the mirror then people are just going to play more Maelstrom Pulse. So Pack Rat might show up and influence the format a little, but the format is built to deal with it.
My thoughts exactly. Although if I do see Pack Rat in Modern, my barrage of zoo animals will be ready to overrun it.
Card quality is also much higher in modern, which means less useless jank to discard to pack rat. I find that pitching stuff to beef goyf up is interesting, and discarding excess thoughtseizes is pretty good. But, these cases tend to be not worth the effort.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
I think if the right deck gets built it could be a very good card. People miss that it can get huge without paying anything extra.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
4 Nezumi Shortfang
4 Pack Rat
Sorceries - 18
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Wrench Mind
2 Sign in Blood
4 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts - 4
4 The Rack
Enchantments - 4
4 Shrieking Affliction
Land - 22
4 Mutavault
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Tectonic Edge
9 Swamp
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
then a Thrumming Stone hits the battlefield followed by the onslaught of relentless (pack) rats running amok amongst your zoo creatures. Seriously I would love to see a Thrumming Stone deck with those rats become a thing.
I think it's alright to include a 1-of copy in say BW tokens (self explanatory), Rock (feed Scooze your discarded creatures), Loam-Junk (get lands, turn lands into tokens), and especially Rats Tribal (which was apparently a thing. An interesting homebrew no doubt).
I feel like in general, Pack Rats can occupy the same niche that Raven's Crime, Thundermaw Hellkite, and Hero of Bladehold do, which is late game cards that you want to topdeck into, that can give you an advantage beyond turn 5. Grindy cards are never bad to have. I'm going to try to test it out with some Sword of Feast and Famine to see if it can work.
It went from being just an unbeatable bomb in Limited to being a dominating all-star in Standard and now it even has this thread in Modern.
I guess its too slow to do much in Modern but the story of it is pretty funny when you think about it.
I think splashing White for Lingering Souls could be good, and having three kinds of tokens makes the deck less vulnerable to Maelstrom Pulse. Maybe add a Life from the Loam package?
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/75987
I could be wrong, though.
To be fair the same argument could be made for everything. Tarmogoyf dies to removal too.
Sometimes they don't have it and if the game goes long and a lot of trading has taken place the chance that the rats can get out of control is high.
I see it more as a late game card that just puts the game away really fast at that point
You're not playing Pack Rat correctly if it gets removed before an activation.
If you want it to be your 2drop you need to start off with T1 discard to scout, otherwise it's your 5 drop.
You should watch a competent BGx players use it. It's terrifying and ends games as quickly as Goyf while also being really really good against single target removal.
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Id probably play it either in UW or UR, or maybe esper. Some kind of grindy deck that wins by resolving a 2 drop threat that needs to be answered or you lose, so Bitterblossom, Pack rat, and maybe 1 more 2 drop "I win the game if you don't kill me" threat, anyone have a good idea?
UW also gives us lingering souls, so lingering souls, Pack Rat, Bitterblossom sounds like a nasty deck to deal with. If we want to be cute we can add in Intangible virtue for funsies.
UW Sorin seems good in the deck as well, looks like we are playing UW tokens I guess.
That means we need thoughtseize and Inquisition to protect our dudes from board wipes, and lets us know if it is safe to stick a turn 2 threat or wait til we have protection up.
So I guess the skeleton would be something like this:
4 bitterblossom
4 pack rat
4 lingering souls
3 spectral procession
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Intangible virtue
Removal+Disruption: 8~16
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 thoughtseize
2 Smother
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
I like BW tokens with pack rat, good synergy. I think my list would be:
4 bitterblossom
4 pack rat
4 lingering souls
3 spectral procession
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Spear of Heliod
4 Intangible virtue
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 Smother
4 Path to Exile
Pretty standard BW token shell.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
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it has already been in a 1st place decklist.
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