MTG Salvation

Quote from Heskatet »

The only thing I ever read here is that counterspell is too strong and could be broken in UWx control or similar. That I think can be true. But besides that, what cards exactly make it impossible to include 7th edition? I would like to see some examples, i can imagine the 1 or another but i don't think it would break modern to include 7th

Meekstone, Static Orb, Mana Short, Opposition, and Equilibrium are the only ones I see that might be questionable. Equilibrium is a stretch but the others could be issues.

The other thing to keep in mind though is that, in this hypothetical scenario, 7th edition would not be added on its own. Modern goes back to 8th Edition with no sets skipped. If we do that for 7th, you need to also included all of Odyssey and Onslaught blocks. I suppose technically you would need to include Apocalypse too since it came out after 7th edition, but that can be ignored.

So, the question then becomes what cards in those sets would create problems in Modern. I didn't want to go through them all so I am not sure if there even is anything in those sets that would be concerning.

Meekstone is comparable to Ensnaring bridge and bridge is better. Static orb is symmetrical but still good, but another prison card, chalice of the void might be on an even greater powerlevel because of the cmc needed to turn it on.
Opposition is a 4 mana enchantment which needs a deck build around it.
Mana short is theoretically a counterspell and storm killer and may function as a pseudo timewalk.
This could be a hard thing to deal with.

I remember Mana Short as part of a world champ deck so many years ago. Assuming it will be modern legal... Mana Short > Snap > Mana Short, probably an effective line against certain decks. Although not exactly a timewalk, since mana short on an aggro deck that already has creatures out.. the creatures will still kill you even if they cannot use mana.

Not only would counterspell not be broken, it wouldn't even be good. The movement to hyper aggro and tribal decks means its blank except against already bad midrange decks and control decks, who are also the only decks that would want it.

Does nothing against aether vial and Cavern of Souls. It is bad against affinity, dredge, burn, humans, spirits, merfolk, hollow one and arclight. It doesn't actually help any control weaknesses, it just makes U slightly more effective against rock decks.

Quote from Heskatet »

Meekstone is comparable to Ensnaring bridge and bridge is better. Static orb is symmetrical but still good, but another prison card, chalice of the void might be on an even greater powerlevel because of the cmc needed to turn it on.
Opposition is a 4 mana enchantment which needs a deck build around it.
Mana short is theoretically a counterspell and storm killer and may function as a pseudo timewalk.
This could be a hard thing to deal with.

That's probably correct. Since I play red prison, I immediately thought of the first two as just more prison cards. Players already dislike the ones we have though which is why I mentioned then.

Mana Short is likely the worst of the bunch since it is an instant and does realistically time walk certain decks. I am not sure how good it really is but the line above with Short - Snap - Short could be aggravating at least. With as much grief as Blood Moon, Bridge, and Chalice get, I think it is at least a negative for some players to add more prison cards to the format.

To my previous comment, regarding adding expansions in addition to 7th (so as to not skip sets when saying cards are legal back to 7th), it looks like Torment might be the biggest issue with Cabal Ritual and Coffers with Entomb being added as part of Odyssey.

All in all, I don't believe 7th edition, on its own, would be a huge problem (though adding more prison cards when people want to get rid of the ones we have could be a problem for some) but the expansions added with it are likely more problematic.

Obviously things aren't going to change in this regard, but it is an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

Keep in mind, that Meekstone fits in totally different decks than Bridge. You can play Meekstone in Eternal Command but not Bridge, same is true for any deck that wants at least some amount of cards in their hands.

Greetings,
Kathal

@WizardMN
There are always people who want something gone because they dislike to play against it. But that is not a valid argument to ban any card.

@Kathal
Yeah sure meekstone has some advantages instead of bridge but the downsides compared to bridge are huge.
Vigilance negates meekstone completely and affinity for example can just tick up +1/+1 counters and make 1 swing for lethal.

Quote from Heskatet »

@WizardMN
There are always people who want something gone because they dislike to play against it. But that is not a valid argument to ban any card.

Either you read way to much into my comments above or I totally missed a part of this conversation. I, and others, were simply drawing parallels to existing, legal, cards and similar cards in 7th edition and I simply said people don't like prison. There is nothing I said above suggesting anything needs to be banned.

Again, I have already stated I don't think cards in 7th would likely break anything. I only mentioned the ones I did because they are the only ones worth mentioning regarding impact to Modern.

Quote from Poxulii »

Not only would counterspell not be broken, it wouldn't even be good. The movement to hyper aggro and tribal decks means its blank except against already bad midrange decks and control decks, who are also the only decks that would want it.

Does nothing against aether vial and Cavern of Souls. It is bad against affinity, dredge, burn, humans, spirits, merfolk, hollow one and arclight. It doesn't actually help any control weaknesses, it just makes U slightly more effective against rock decks.

I've been taking a peek at certain threads the past weeks, having a little fun reading other deck strategies. There are a few modern decks that use Deprive, even with the drawback they just want a hard counter. Counterspell would probably replace deprive in those decks. Anyway, I do agree that counterspell won't be good, with so many hyper aggressive aggro decks these days.

@WizardMN
Ok sorry,I may have misinterpreted what you wrote, but I also hadn't believed that you wanted to ban something. I think we are on the same line with our opinions but just misunderstood each other.

But Affinity is already the best creature deck against Bridge, due to Thopter and Pest and having the possibility to move Plating and counters around. Hence, Meekstone is not a card against them.

Greetings,
Kathal

Is Aluren too strong for Modern? It costs 4, and the benefit goes to both players.

Besides the obvious Counterspell I would also advocate for another card that would certainly help in combating a lot of the unfairer elements and I don't think it would be too strong either since it's still a specific hate bear.

That card would be Containment Priest

Quote from The Fluff »

Is Aluren too strong for Modern? It costs 4, and the benefit goes to both players.

It's on the Reserved List so it doesn't really matter.

Now, as to whether the effect is too much, it probably is. Getting stuff for free, even if symmetrical, is pretty much always going to benefit the player building with it since their deck is built to use it. 4 mana is kind of high for Modern, but the impact is pretty large.

Yes it is. Aluren is essentially The Rock with better Splinter Twin as a finisher. BG is usually better then UR in modern, and Splinter Twin was already deemed too good for modern.

Ah, sad did not know Aluren is on the RL. So that's why it was never reprinted in core sets.

Quote from Galerion »

I would also advocate for another card that would certainly help in combating a lot of the unfairer elements and I don't think it would be too strong either since it's still a specific hate bear.

That card would be Containment Priest

Priest does help against dredge and phoenix decks, and all other decks that have creatures that jump back from the yard. However, priest would be like a rest in peace with legs, and a creature is easier to get rid of than an enchantment.

Quote from The Fluff »

Ah, sad did not know Aluren is on the RL. So that's why it was never reprinted in core sets.

Quote from Galerion »

I would also advocate for another card that would certainly help in combating a lot of the unfairer elements and I don't think it would be too strong either since it's still a specific hate bear.

That card would be Containment Priest

Priest does help against dredge and phoenix decks, and all other decks that have creatures that jump back from the yard. However, priest would be like a rest in peace with legs, and a creature is easier to get rid of than an enchantment.

In a vacuum sure but currently most decks of that kind can just pack their sideboard with stuff like Nature's Claim since it deals with most grave hate which are artifacts and enchantments. With the Priest they could no longer rely on that and would have delude their strategy further if they want to beat the hate.

Also it's an easy detail to miss but the Priest has Flash. Artifacts and enchantments make it quite obvious if they can go for it or they can't. With the Priest they could never be really sure and would always have to respect it otherwise they could get blown out which is always a good thing.

Of note, Priest also stops Aether Vial, Collected Company and friends, Living End, Nahiri the Harbinger, Kitchen Finks ... basically it stops a lot that it's fishy little cousin Mistcaller can only hope to.

Hmm, for some more cards...

Goblin Bomb - looks like a fun card to use.

Elvish Aberration - one more tool for us Living End players to use.

I want mother of runes a great card that won't break anything.

Also: Unmask

Quote from login »

I want mother of runes a great card that won't break anything.

Also: Unmask

Unmask would be really neat

Moggcatcher to make goblins great in Modern.

Also agree that Unmask would be nice.

Quote from The Fluff »

Moggcatcher to make goblins great in Modern.

Also agree that Unmask would be nice.

I wuld rather have Goblin Ringleader as most of the onslaught gobs are already in modern Gempalm incinerator also.

Dark Ritual - I can't think of a single deck that would play this card except for maybe Ad Nauseam, which isn't that strong right now anyway.

Dark Ritual for Modern? There's zero chance of this ever happening, and for good reason. A +2 mana ritual castable on the first turn would be extremely broken, and not just for Ad Nauseam. Noooooo thanks.