Apparently Wizards wasn't making enough money from hundreds of P. Sealed events launching in MTGO each day, in which they burned 32 Tix and paid out 12-24 Tix in prizes. As of next downtime, they are being replaced with the wonderful Cube ticket system:
This is so disheartening. It was the one thing that really got me back into Magic, and now they're switching it to a system that is, at its best, still worse than the average EV of a draft(+selling the cards). Really, was there any demand for this? Did people like the old Cube ticket system?
I'd assume it's to accommodate the people who migrate from Duals to MTGO.
They are used to spending 3$ and jamming a lot of games. Now they can pay once, and only pay in tiny amounts as they need. As opposed to having to deal with other players to sell packs/cards.
The BEST CASE scenario of -2 Tix per event is far worse than what it was before, and pretty much worse than Swiss draft, too. This is unambiguously worse for the players of P. Sealed events.
I certainly don't understand their finances, so there might be a reason. Still, I'm flummoxed as to why they are trying to create an event cheap enough to encourage revenue from customers who are willing to spend less, then cancel it because they're not making enough money.
Also, cube tix?? Are these the people that go to Disneyland and buy Mickey Money?
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My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
This is terrible news for people who like sealed. I was right about to transition into playing a mix of the phantoms and the 4packs but now I have no interest in the phantoms. Maybe 4pack will rebound after this. As of now it's firing very slow.
Not only is this destroying a viable queue, but it also kills hope of future changes for better prizes. My #1 wish for change on Magic Online is for the sealed Daily Events to change to Phantom and have the same payout and entry as the constructed Dailies. If "All phantom events only payout in Phantom points" is a real rule they stick to, that kills my hope for a good sealed Daily Event.
And not only does this change things for the worse, but it's also a sign that they are more interested in experimenting with worse prizes to rake in more dough rather than better prizes to attract more play. As the Mesmeric Orb says, a step in one direction is two steps away from the opposite direction. It may be a long time before we see good things happening on Magic Online.
Now, if there is ever a good outlet for phantom points, this could all be fine. But if there's never tangible prizes it's a black hole of suck.
For now I will slink further into dormancy and only play release events and premiers with low turnouts.
edit- Just took a look at the current structure of Sealed Dailies and they seem playable.
This is terrible news for people who like sealed. I was right about to transition into playing a mix of the phantoms and the 4packs but now I have no interest in the phantoms. Maybe 4pack will rebound after this. As of now it's firing very slow.
Not only is this destroying a viable queue, but it also kills hope of future changes for better prizes. My #1 wish for change on Magic Online is for the sealed Daily Events to change to Phantom and have the same payout and entry as the constructed Dailies. If "All phantom events only payout in Phantom points" is a real rule they stick to, that kills my hope for a good sealed Daily Event.
And not only does this change things for the worse, but it's also a sign that they are more interested in experimenting with worse prizes to rake in more dough rather than better prizes to attract more play. As the Mesmeric Orb says, a step in one direction is two steps away from the opposite direction. It may be a long time before we see good things happening on Magic Online.
Now, if there is ever a good outlet for phantom points, this could all be fine. But if there's never tangible prizes it's a black hole of suck.
For now I will slink further into dormancy and only play release events and premiers with low turnouts.
Any chance that Wizards will change their mind? I'm trying to raise a stink on Twitter, but most people don't seem to care, and Cube fans are happy that their payouts are marginally less useless.
It's so disheartening, because Magic is clearly the most successful collectible card game, possibly the most profitable strategy game (games like chess are more popular but don't generate much revenue), and possibly the most complicated-but-still-accessible game of all time. Yet when it comes to digitizing that experience, WotC/Hasbro continually make baffling decisions.
They're in the business of selling entertainment and sometimes I wonder if they understand that. They're not in the cardboard business. People will not pay an unbounded amount for their entertainment -- so as long as operating it is profitable, just leave it alone! Let it be a cash cow. Taking something away from your loyal customers creates ill will, it does not make them excited to start paying more for a similar or worse experience!
I just don't get it sometimes. Any mediocre marketing manager would understand some of the simple concepts that they botch regularly -- taking things away from customers, failing to deliver on promises (hello online leagues?), ignoring the presentation (online interface is a disaster), the list goes on and on. Who is running this, and why haven't they been fired?
I don't even particularly care about this one issue, I just wish the entire online enterprise were run by more competent folks.
I was shady on the phantom events before, but this makes it so I'll never participate in them anymore. Phantom points, indeed!
I'm with Phyrre, there's a lot of dumb mistakes Wizards seems to make with MTGO. You'd think someone somewhere would realize how much more they could make if it was truly a quality product.
--Jed
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L5R or MTG, if it's got Samurai, Knights or Soldiers, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
phantom sealed events were the ONLY thing i'd play on mtgo, because i liked how i wasn't risking huge amounts of money each time. i doubt i'll play again after the downtime. thanks for bringing this to my attention. i hope i can get a few m14 phantom sealed events before i no longer am willing to risk such high amounts of money.
this actually makes me feel not as bad, ironically, because once we're forced to switch to the beta, i will no longer be ABLE to play the game -- my netbook is my only computer.
sometimes t feels like wizards is doing the best they can to kill mtgo...
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Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
I've been critical of WoTC on many MTGO-related issues, but I can't really fault them here.
It makes sense to standardize all phantom queues. Since you're not keeping any cards, it shouldn't really matter what the format is. Phantom is phantom. The phantom cube queues have been really popular, so that seems a reasonable place to start. If these new queues don't fire, they can always adjust things later.
These will be more convenient for many people. If you're playing a bunch of these, you no longer have to deal with having to sell packs to bots. You just play until you're out of event tix, then buy more.
If you're someone who obsesses about EV, you're simply not in WoTC's target audience for these queues. If you want to play Sealed for good EV, that's what dailies are for. And in general, they're rightfully much more interested in pleasing those who view MTGO as entertainment you happily pay for than those who aim to spend as little actual money as possible on it.
I recognize that this is a smart move on their part even though it makes me personally less interested in these queues. And if it doesn't work out, they'll just tweak things again.
I imagine the main reason WotC have changed this system is because payouts from Phantom sealed were pushing pack prices down.
There's always going to be a degree of tension between players wanting to play more cheaply and WotC wanting to limit that.
I'm not sure this new system is really friendly to low budget players, though. Very low budget players are often beginners and if you're not winning much these queues are still very expensive (not as bad as regular drafts, but that's not really the point).
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
It makes sense to standardize all phantom queues. Since you're not keeping any cards, it shouldn't really matter what the format is. Phantom is phantom. The phantom cube queues have been really popular, so that seems a reasonable place to start. If these new queues don't fire, they can always adjust things later.
See, it's nice to imagine that they are actually trying to solve a problem for the players, but one thing sticks out as an undeniable sign that this system is designed for the house, not the players: "Phantom Points and New Player Points cannot be purchased or traded, and are only acquired through participation."
There is no reason for phantom points to be untradeable other than to deny players liquidity and force more traffic to the store. Want to standardize all phantom queues and not give out packs because some players are too lazy to interact with the market? Fine, just payout in tix. Want to avoid paying out in tix for fears of gambling laws? Fine, create a new point system. But why disallow the trading of those tokens? There's one reason only, and it's not to benefit the players.
If all they wanted to do was design a better system for DotP newcomers, they could have designed the same thing without the trade restriction. Players who don't want to interact with the market lose nothing by having the opportunity to trade. But that's not what they're doing. They are cashgrabbing, just like they've been with every other decision they've made in the past few years.
See, it's nice to imagine that they are actually trying to solve a problem for the players, but one thing sticks out as an undeniable sign that this system is designed for the house, not the players: "Phantom Points and New Player Points cannot be purchased or traded, and are only acquired through participation."
There is no reason for phantom points to be untradeable other than to deny players liquidity and force more traffic to the store.
This part isn't really a change. They're just renaming cube tickets to phantom points and new player tickets to new player points. They both are untradeable currently.
I also fail to see how this is forcing more traffic to the store when you can't buy these tickets at the store.
Think about it this way. Your prize at the end of the event is a discount for your next 1-2 events, with the size of your discount depending on how well you did.
I imagine the main reason WotC have changed this system is because payouts from Phantom sealed were pushing pack prices down.
I don't really see any evidence for that. All signs point to the redemption fee being the issue for price suppression the original three Phantom Sealed formats, AVR, RtR, and M13, were sitting at around 4.0, 3.6, and 3.5 tickets for boosters, respectively. M14 and GTC, both with more expensive redemptions, straddle 3.0, and did so weeks before P. Sealed was even an option.
This part isn't really a change. They're just renaming cube tickets to phantom points and new player tickets to new player points. They both are untradeable currently.
What are you trying to say here? That players will respond positively to an untradeable currency because lots of people play cube? If so, time will tell.
I also fail to see how this is forcing more traffic to the store when you can't buy these tickets at the store.
When players are denied the right/privilege to trade a valuable currency, they are forced to sell other items or go directly to the store. Let's say you build up 50 phantom bux but you are out of tix, which are needed to enter the phantom queue. Too bad, instead of trading your bux for tix you have to use other resources or go to the store. It doesn't matter that the phantom bux themselves aren't available in the store. Not being able to liquidate deprives people of the value of their possessions.
I'm kind of stunned that they think they can get cube draft prices for phantom sealed events. Most people don't really like sealed that much. I like sealed a lot, but I'm not paying a flat fee to play it, I don't even bother with cube anymore and that's more fun than sealed.
They award real boosters for the single-elim cube drafts... I don't see why they couldn't just as easily have used those payouts for phantom sealed, and I hope they move to that when they see a huge drop in player base for these events. that would still be a worse payout structure on average but would at least offer some upside to above-average players.
Can't say I'm surprised overall, this was the best deal on MTGO and they've shown a history of nerfing prices on those; see their history with 4-pack sealed.
Think about it this way. Your prize at the end of the event is a discount for your next 1-2 events, with the size of your discount depending on how well you did.
That discount, even if you win 100% of your matches, still leaves you with a total value of each match that is worse than the old average EV.
Allowing people to "go infinite" like they can with normal limited.
Uhmm. Therein lies the problem with your proposal. WotC is not here to facilitate you "going infinite". In fact its in their interest to ensure that the % of players "going infinite" is as low as possible. You honestly should not have any expectations of being able to "go infinite" in any of your arguments, period, because MTGO was never designed to enable you to play for free. Having it cost $5 per tournament on average I agree might be too much for you, and that's a totally reasonable conclusion on your part. But "Its bad because I can't ever play for free" is not reasonable, because YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYING FOR FREE.
Uhmm. Therein lies the problem with your proposal. WotC is not here to facilitate you "going infinite". In fact its in their interest to ensure that the % of players "going infinite" is as low as possible. You honestly should not have any expectations of being able to "go infinite" in any of your arguments, period, because MTGO was never designed to enable you to play for free. Having it cost $5 per tournament on average I agree might be too much for you, and that's a totally reasonable conclusion on your part. But "Its bad because I can't ever play for free" is not reasonable, because YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYING FOR FREE.
They're not facilitating it, but it is a dream that can be lived for a reasonable percent (constructed) and very small percent (limited). You're using "It's not their job or intent!" to handwave real complaints.
Phantom Sealed, as it existed before, was among the worst EV of any regularly firing queues, as a percent of its cost. At the ideal, Wizards was outright profiting 25% of the cost, if packs sit at $4. Given the actual scenario of $3 or lower, the actual EV is -50%!
Compare this to 2-man constructed queues, an event that also doesn't open packs, that has, theoretical 0 EV, but in practice closer to -25% of the entry.
The entire basis of Magic Online is that the winner(s) wins +Value, the runners up gain or lose a little and approximately break even, and the rest get varying degrees of piss. This is true for Swiss, 4322, 8-4s, 4 pack sealed, 6 pack sealed, 2 man queues, daily events, etc. This change takes the worst %EV, and almost completely kills it.
I'll pay whatever they want if I can just open and keep a Jace for once in my life. /whine
Honestly, MTGO is the cheapest thing I do for entertainment, so I'm not going to complain. Would I like it to be a little more lucrative? Absolutely. Does Wizards owe me that? Absolutely not.
I'll pay whatever they want if I can just open and keep a Jace for once in my life. /whine
Honestly, MTGO is the cheapest thing I do for entertainment, so I'm not going to complain. Would I like it to be a little more lucrative? Absolutely. Does Wizards owe me that? Absolutely not.
~M
Are you really going to do this new format? Did you do the ORIGNAL Phantom Sealed when it cost 8.0 Tix, and was absolutely, unambiguously, a better payout system than this proposed one? They had to change the original because it was an overpriced ghost town that missed the entire reason why people are interested in Phantom events.
You are certainly correct that its ok for some people to be able to go infinite. But again, that's not the end goal, merely a side effect. Comparisons with online poker don't seem applicable; poker is a form of gambling, Magic the Gathering is not. The goal of MTGO was never to tempt people to try to grind EV, it was to provide a way to play MtG online. Again, if you feel like the asking price is too high, then fine. But "This makes it harder for me to go infinite" never has and never will be a valid argument, because you aren't supposed to be going infinite.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
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http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/08142013c
I started a thread to discuss the changes in the (basically dead) Magic Online forum:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/forumdisplay.php?f=310
This is so disheartening. It was the one thing that really got me back into Magic, and now they're switching it to a system that is, at its best, still worse than the average EV of a draft(+selling the cards). Really, was there any demand for this? Did people like the old Cube ticket system?
They are used to spending 3$ and jamming a lot of games. Now they can pay once, and only pay in tiny amounts as they need. As opposed to having to deal with other players to sell packs/cards.
Also, cube tix?? Are these the people that go to Disneyland and buy Mickey Money?
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
Not only is this destroying a viable queue, but it also kills hope of future changes for better prizes. My #1 wish for change on Magic Online is for the sealed Daily Events to change to Phantom and have the same payout and entry as the constructed Dailies. If "All phantom events only payout in Phantom points" is a real rule they stick to, that kills my hope for a good sealed Daily Event.
And not only does this change things for the worse, but it's also a sign that they are more interested in experimenting with worse prizes to rake in more dough rather than better prizes to attract more play. As the Mesmeric Orb says, a step in one direction is two steps away from the opposite direction. It may be a long time before we see good things happening on Magic Online.
Now, if there is ever a good outlet for phantom points, this could all be fine. But if there's never tangible prizes it's a black hole of suck.
For now I will slink further into dormancy and only play release events and premiers with low turnouts.
edit- Just took a look at the current structure of Sealed Dailies and they seem playable.
Any chance that Wizards will change their mind? I'm trying to raise a stink on Twitter, but most people don't seem to care, and Cube fans are happy that their payouts are marginally less useless.
They're in the business of selling entertainment and sometimes I wonder if they understand that. They're not in the cardboard business. People will not pay an unbounded amount for their entertainment -- so as long as operating it is profitable, just leave it alone! Let it be a cash cow. Taking something away from your loyal customers creates ill will, it does not make them excited to start paying more for a similar or worse experience!
I just don't get it sometimes. Any mediocre marketing manager would understand some of the simple concepts that they botch regularly -- taking things away from customers, failing to deliver on promises (hello online leagues?), ignoring the presentation (online interface is a disaster), the list goes on and on. Who is running this, and why haven't they been fired?
I don't even particularly care about this one issue, I just wish the entire online enterprise were run by more competent folks.
I'm with Phyrre, there's a lot of dumb mistakes Wizards seems to make with MTGO. You'd think someone somewhere would realize how much more they could make if it was truly a quality product.
--Jed
L5R or MTG, if it's got Samurai, Knights or Soldiers, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
this actually makes me feel not as bad, ironically, because once we're forced to switch to the beta, i will no longer be ABLE to play the game -- my netbook is my only computer.
sometimes t feels like wizards is doing the best they can to kill mtgo...
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
It makes sense to standardize all phantom queues. Since you're not keeping any cards, it shouldn't really matter what the format is. Phantom is phantom. The phantom cube queues have been really popular, so that seems a reasonable place to start. If these new queues don't fire, they can always adjust things later.
These will be more convenient for many people. If you're playing a bunch of these, you no longer have to deal with having to sell packs to bots. You just play until you're out of event tix, then buy more.
If you're someone who obsesses about EV, you're simply not in WoTC's target audience for these queues. If you want to play Sealed for good EV, that's what dailies are for. And in general, they're rightfully much more interested in pleasing those who view MTGO as entertainment you happily pay for than those who aim to spend as little actual money as possible on it.
I recognize that this is a smart move on their part even though it makes me personally less interested in these queues. And if it doesn't work out, they'll just tweak things again.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
There's always going to be a degree of tension between players wanting to play more cheaply and WotC wanting to limit that.
I'm not sure this new system is really friendly to low budget players, though. Very low budget players are often beginners and if you're not winning much these queues are still very expensive (not as bad as regular drafts, but that's not really the point).
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
See, it's nice to imagine that they are actually trying to solve a problem for the players, but one thing sticks out as an undeniable sign that this system is designed for the house, not the players:
"Phantom Points and New Player Points cannot be purchased or traded, and are only acquired through participation."
There is no reason for phantom points to be untradeable other than to deny players liquidity and force more traffic to the store. Want to standardize all phantom queues and not give out packs because some players are too lazy to interact with the market? Fine, just payout in tix. Want to avoid paying out in tix for fears of gambling laws? Fine, create a new point system. But why disallow the trading of those tokens? There's one reason only, and it's not to benefit the players.
If all they wanted to do was design a better system for DotP newcomers, they could have designed the same thing without the trade restriction. Players who don't want to interact with the market lose nothing by having the opportunity to trade. But that's not what they're doing. They are cashgrabbing, just like they've been with every other decision they've made in the past few years.
This part isn't really a change. They're just renaming cube tickets to phantom points and new player tickets to new player points. They both are untradeable currently.
I also fail to see how this is forcing more traffic to the store when you can't buy these tickets at the store.
Think about it this way. Your prize at the end of the event is a discount for your next 1-2 events, with the size of your discount depending on how well you did.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I don't really see any evidence for that. All signs point to the redemption fee being the issue for price suppression the original three Phantom Sealed formats, AVR, RtR, and M13, were sitting at around 4.0, 3.6, and 3.5 tickets for boosters, respectively. M14 and GTC, both with more expensive redemptions, straddle 3.0, and did so weeks before P. Sealed was even an option.
What are you trying to say here? That players will respond positively to an untradeable currency because lots of people play cube? If so, time will tell.
When players are denied the right/privilege to trade a valuable currency, they are forced to sell other items or go directly to the store. Let's say you build up 50 phantom bux but you are out of tix, which are needed to enter the phantom queue. Too bad, instead of trading your bux for tix you have to use other resources or go to the store. It doesn't matter that the phantom bux themselves aren't available in the store. Not being able to liquidate deprives people of the value of their possessions.
They award real boosters for the single-elim cube drafts... I don't see why they couldn't just as easily have used those payouts for phantom sealed, and I hope they move to that when they see a huge drop in player base for these events. that would still be a worse payout structure on average but would at least offer some upside to above-average players.
Can't say I'm surprised overall, this was the best deal on MTGO and they've shown a history of nerfing prices on those; see their history with 4-pack sealed.
That discount, even if you win 100% of your matches, still leaves you with a total value of each match that is worse than the old average EV.
Uhmm. Therein lies the problem with your proposal. WotC is not here to facilitate you "going infinite". In fact its in their interest to ensure that the % of players "going infinite" is as low as possible. You honestly should not have any expectations of being able to "go infinite" in any of your arguments, period, because MTGO was never designed to enable you to play for free. Having it cost $5 per tournament on average I agree might be too much for you, and that's a totally reasonable conclusion on your part. But "Its bad because I can't ever play for free" is not reasonable, because YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYING FOR FREE.
They're not facilitating it, but it is a dream that can be lived for a reasonable percent (constructed) and very small percent (limited). You're using "It's not their job or intent!" to handwave real complaints.
Phantom Sealed, as it existed before, was among the worst EV of any regularly firing queues, as a percent of its cost. At the ideal, Wizards was outright profiting 25% of the cost, if packs sit at $4. Given the actual scenario of $3 or lower, the actual EV is -50%!
Compare this to 2-man constructed queues, an event that also doesn't open packs, that has, theoretical 0 EV, but in practice closer to -25% of the entry.
The entire basis of Magic Online is that the winner(s) wins +Value, the runners up gain or lose a little and approximately break even, and the rest get varying degrees of piss. This is true for Swiss, 4322, 8-4s, 4 pack sealed, 6 pack sealed, 2 man queues, daily events, etc. This change takes the worst %EV, and almost completely kills it.
Honestly, MTGO is the cheapest thing I do for entertainment, so I'm not going to complain. Would I like it to be a little more lucrative? Absolutely. Does Wizards owe me that? Absolutely not.
~M
Are you really going to do this new format? Did you do the ORIGNAL Phantom Sealed when it cost 8.0 Tix, and was absolutely, unambiguously, a better payout system than this proposed one? They had to change the original because it was an overpriced ghost town that missed the entire reason why people are interested in Phantom events.
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.