Observation 1: They've stuck with the 2 commons, 1 uncommon, and 1 rare per color formula (such as with Zendikar Alliers or Time Spiral Slivers), except with 3 colors instead of 5 for commons and uncommons. So the "fewer colors" thing will make it harder to make a good Sliver deck rather than easier, since they've just cut 4 commons and 2 uncommons without adding any.
Observation 2: The power pump, toughness pump, and mana slivers, which were all common in Time Spiral, are uncommon now. Double strike was uncommon and now is rare. The only evasion this time is rare and off-color. (Time Spiral had shadow, flanking, and "can't be blocked alone" at common, plus a noncombat wincon (Screeching).)
Observation 3: Without Predatory Sliver or the uncommon/rare slivers, your army of sliver commons is thoroughly unimpressive. Even with haste, first strike, and vigilance, a 1/1 or 2/2 is hardly a powerhouse.
Observation 4: Predatory Sliver is decent outside the Sliver deck as a better Timberpack Wolf. The uncommon p/t boosters have decent bodies as well, so they will be also be desired outside of dedicated Sliver decks. The mana sliver is also a decent fixer outside Sliver decks. So the key slivers for the Sliver deck will need to be picked very early as they will be desired by other drafters as well.
Observation 5: The lifelink sliver is probably not good enough to justify splashing black. The flying sliver is potentially quite good; however, without much in terms of defensive slivers you need to be very careful about your flying sliver getting removed after attackers are declared.
Observation 3: Without Predatory Sliver or the uncommon/rare slivers, your army of sliver commons is thoroughly unimpressive. Even with haste, first strike, and vigilance, a 1/1 or 2/2 is hardly a powerhouse.
I think this is the critical observation.
In fact, I would go so far as to say Slivers will be drafted successfully by zero players at the average table. Not only is Predatory Sliver the only Common that makes it worthwhile, but also there are Commons in all other colours which can cause combat disasters at instant speed by removing critical Slivers mid-combat.
Worst of all, Predatory Sliver is a solid playable with zero other Slivers, so - as you point out - all the Green players will just randomly take them.
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
While you have a point of these slivers vs. TSP slivers, I'm not sure you can justifiably compare this environment to TSP's environment.
The biggest change is the 'only yours' change to Slivers, which means you can safely play only a couple of slivers. (You were kinda nuts to play a single Sliver as a creature in TSP, unless it was Plague Sliver.)
I think the key Sliver is Manaweft. Once you have that, the more expensive Slivers become a lot more reasonable (big one, NPI, is the Trample Sliver).
bateleur: I think the best archetype for Slivers is White and something else. White has both the cards to make the slivers more dangerous (Fortify, Doublestrike Sliver) and Hive Stirrings, which I think is getting underrated.
While you have a point of these slivers vs. TSP slivers, I'm not sure you can justifiably compare this environment to TSP's environment.
The biggest change is the 'only yours' change to Slivers, which means you can safely play only a couple of slivers. (You were kinda nuts to play a single Sliver as a creature in TSP, unless it was Plague Sliver.)
That makes Slivers a weaker strategy, because non-Slivers players will pick them up earlier.
I think the key Sliver is Manaweft. Once you have that, the more expensive Slivers become a lot more reasonable (big one, NPI, is the Trample Sliver).
What expensive slivers?
There is 1 common and 1 uncommon sliver with a CMC greater than 3. Slivers is not a ramp strategy.
bateleur: I think the best archetype for Slivers is White and something else. White has both the cards to make the slivers more dangerous (Fortify, Doublestrike Sliver) and Hive Stirrings, which I think is getting underrated.
Stirrings is only good with the green/red power increasers. A couple of 1/2 vigilant guys isn't that great. Heck, even 1/2 vigilant double strikers aren't that impressive.
fnord: I said it was the biggest change, not that it was the biggest improvement.
Having said that, the fact that I doubt the environment will be anything like the competitive deathmatch arena that TSP is should also be considered. There's less upside (because of people poaching slivers), but there's less downside as well.
I do reference the Trample Sliver by name. I guess I should be more explicit: I expect slivers to be a strategy your semi-'force' if you open a really good one (Megantic or Thorncaster).
Stirrings is good with any Power Increaser, and Fortify is the easiest one around.
I will find it very amusing in the 'odd Design achievement' department if they created a Limited environment with slivers where they're not a huge archetype. This is increased if they ARE a big archetype in Constructed formats.
The "Sliver creatures you control" clause completely changes how Slivers operate in Limited. There aren't enough of them to build a deck around them with any consistency. (Sure it might fall into your lap in 1 out of 100 drafts.) They're all priced so that they're mediocre by themselves. In the past that was fine because you could play one-off slivers like "OK this card is mediocre, but maybe I'll randomly soak up my opponent's Sliver effects with this dude." Now if you play a deck with exactly 1 Sliver, you know you're not getting any interactions at all.
I kind of hate that they're calling these creatures "Slivers." Original Slivers are a very interesting design space. These are just boring French Vanilla creatures disguised under a linear mechanic.
Phyrre, I'm not sure we're looking at the same cards, to be honest.
With old Slivers I would never put a Sliver in my deck if I thought it would help my opponent more than it would help myself, and having a single Sliver in my deck would almost invariably do this.
The best example of this would be Predatory Sliver. As a one-of card, it's a bear. Perfectly reasonable. I can play a lone Predatory Sliver I draft. Are you saying that you would play a lone Sinew Sliver you drafted in TSP? I certainly wouldn't.
The same can be said of other Slivers you drafted one-of back in TSP (with the exception of Venser's Sliver).
In a nutshell, they weakened the linearity of the Sliver mechanic and made them better draft cards. So the Sliver strategy is weakened, but the overall cards become stronger.
Things that needed to happen to make slivers viable (one or more, not necessarily all):
1. Hexproof or Shroud Sliver
2. Flash sliver
3. "All slivers" not "all you control"
4. More of them at common
5. Changelings**
6. Sliver tribal spells**
7. Deathtouch sliver
8. Card draw sliver
Slivers will be a 'fail more' strategy in M14 Draft. Quote me on that.
While you have a point of these slivers vs. TSP slivers, I'm not sure you can justifiably compare this environment to TSP's environment.
The biggest change is the 'only yours' change to Slivers, which means you can safely play only a couple of slivers. (You were kinda nuts to play a single Sliver as a creature in TSP, unless it was Plague Sliver.)
I think the key Sliver is Manaweft. Once you have that, the more expensive Slivers become a lot more reasonable (big one, NPI, is the Trample Sliver).
bateleur: I think the best archetype for Slivers is White and something else. White has both the cards to make the slivers more dangerous (Fortify, Doublestrike Sliver) and Hive Stirrings, which I think is getting underrated.
I agree, WG slivers seems the only possible viable route. It's still very dependent on the mana sliver - fixing is extremely little in this format, and from what is there, a lot of it is uncommon. Is the mana sliver first pickable to force this archetype? I'm likely going to try that once or twice in drafts. I'm not sure if slivers can hold their own however against some of the other uncommons in this set.
I agree, WG slivers seems the only possible viable route. It's still very dependent on the mana sliver - fixing is extremely little in this format, and from what is there, a lot of it is uncommon. Is the mana sliver first pickable to force this archetype? I'm likely going to try that once or twice in drafts. I'm not sure if slivers can hold their own however against some of the other uncommons in this set.
Is the mana sliver even playable in most sliver decks?
As a general rule, if the backbone of your deck is 1, 2, and 3 drops which want to attack, you do not want to play play 3+colors and do not want to play 2 mana 1/1s which fix/ramp.
Is the mana sliver even playable in most sliver decks?
As a general rule, if the backbone of your deck is 1, 2, and 3 drops which want to attack, you do not want to play play 3+colors and do not want to play 2 mana 1/1s which fix/ramp.
3-color slivers may be like 5-color aggro in DGR.
I don't think the format is able to support such decks, unless you have multiples of predatory slivers. The format is looking to be very defensive and grindy, something a bunch of 2/2s aren't going to pounce on.
You do need some of the beefier dudes, and You need to ramp into them. Additionally, it's the only way the off color rare slivers are consistently playable.
This is probably the only deck that will want Shimmering Grotto, if one is actually opened, assuming you wanted to play more than two colors. The pieces you want to cast are fairly inexpensive, though I would advise picking two colors and possibly splashing the third.
Striking Sliver would make Fortify work well in a 2-color aggressive deck, but I'm not sure how good that would end up. Striking Sliver is also pretty good, though fragile, with Goblin Diplomats, though the aggressive deck would most likely just use it to falter blockers.
Slivers is Green/White with a red splash on the top end.
Predatory Sliver is the most important card. If you don't have 2 of these, other slivers don't really matter at all.
Hive stirrings is the second best card. It is very playable with only one predatory sliver out. Everything else is gravy.
I don't think slivers will be a strategy that sits outside of GW. If you're the GW drafter, then you're also getting good slivers in addition to good GW cards. I think they'll play okay together, but you're not going to get some truly explosive tribal action like in MM
TLDR: Don't ever try and "draft slivers" If you're GW you'll probably pick up the core of the deck, otherwise don't force it. It definitely isn't 5 color either.
Only three uncommons used in this build, so your mileage will vary. I assumed you could only find one of an uncommon/common removal, and that any non removal common you could find two of. This is just a rough estimate to see what the deck would look like and see how it plays. We could adjust some of the factors to more accurately represent an average draft deck, but this is a good start.
This deck looks a lot faster than other builds apparent in the format. The big question is would it be able to effectively fight through the walls. Many of the two drops are one toughness making the first strike slivers not absolute trash.
Like previous posters said, I don't think you will get enough slivers to make a sliver deck, but you will get enough slivers to make your weenies not insignificant. The two most important non-sliver cards are Fortify, to make your first strike more powerful, and Charging Griffin to fill in your aggressive start with some flying pressure. There are no 4 drop common/uncommon slivers so the griffins really help out in this case. Thoughts?
Slivers aren't a linear strategy at all this time around. The cards aren't bad enough on their own. Of all the sliver cards in M14, the only ones that are very likely to table are Stirrings, Groundshaker, Construct, and maybe Syphon. You need core cards for an archetype to table consistently in order for it to be an archetype, and not one of those listed is a core card.
Slivers are just a bunch of decent creatures which will fit nicely into almost any curve, and randomly have some nice synergy. The Sliver deck will obviously happen once in a while when a person gets lucky with the packs, but it won't ever be an archetype.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I have gone 3-0 with slivers a few times and I actively cut it. It is simply faster than any other archetype in m14 if executed properly. Most often it is naya colors, but splashing the rare sliver(s) is very common.
The key card is manaweft sliver, and is a first pick if you are forcing slivers. The only thing that goes before it are rare slivers (The order goes bonescythe, syphon, megantic, thorncaster, galerider if it comes up). The order after that goes predatory, battle, blur, hive stirrings, striking, sentinel (mostly filler from here down, but 11 slivers are much stronger than 7), steelform, construct, groundshaker. Depending on how many manawefts or striking slivers you get, sentinel may move up.
The key support cards are shock, giant growth, fortify (bomb in this deck), ranger's guile and lay of the land. You should pick up quality slivers over expensive removal- to win games with slivers you want lots in play. More expensive options like chandra's o (hard to cast sometimes), and hunt the weak are definitely playable, but you want to be swinging hard and fast, before decks are capable of putting up a fight. You should keep an eye out for good support cards like naturalize and plummet for the board.
Once you have deployed 2-3 slivers in a row you should have a threatening force and you want to use tempo to your advantage.
This is an example of a deck I recently drafted and 3-0 an 8/4 with it. It was completely busted, and it felt unbeatable. Most of the slivers like construct and sentinel came in really really late...
3x predator
3x sentinel
1x manaweft
1x thorncaster
1x witchstalker
1x briapack alpha
1x sliver construct
1x battlesliver
2x blur sliver
1x striking sliver
1x door of destiny
1x young pyromancer
3x shock
1x giant growth
2x lay of the land
1x fortify
1x shimmering grotta
7x forest
4x mountain
4x plains
Relevant sideboard cards included trollhide, naturalise, and plummet.
Anyways, it is a lot better than most people think. It can win faster than almost an archetype in the format, and often is under represented.
Door of Destinies is secret tech that people will pass quite often. I got mine 9th pick. Megantic, 2 manaweft, 1 steelform, and predator sliver were the backbone. Got a late Galerider and striking slivers, one battle sliver with two Hive stirrings.
Mana weft into early Door was huge. I went 4 color (didn't get any black slivers) and had no trouble dropping any color sliver i wanted. Pick up those darksteel ingots and either lay of the land or the 3-drop enchant land (forgot the name) and you're set. Pacifism for bomb drops and fortify for huge combat tricks.
I'm not impressed.
Observation 1: They've stuck with the 2 commons, 1 uncommon, and 1 rare per color formula (such as with Zendikar Alliers or Time Spiral Slivers), except with 3 colors instead of 5 for commons and uncommons. So the "fewer colors" thing will make it harder to make a good Sliver deck rather than easier, since they've just cut 4 commons and 2 uncommons without adding any.
Observation 2: The power pump, toughness pump, and mana slivers, which were all common in Time Spiral, are uncommon now. Double strike was uncommon and now is rare. The only evasion this time is rare and off-color. (Time Spiral had shadow, flanking, and "can't be blocked alone" at common, plus a noncombat wincon (Screeching).)
Observation 3: Without Predatory Sliver or the uncommon/rare slivers, your army of sliver commons is thoroughly unimpressive. Even with haste, first strike, and vigilance, a 1/1 or 2/2 is hardly a powerhouse.
Observation 4: Predatory Sliver is decent outside the Sliver deck as a better Timberpack Wolf. The uncommon p/t boosters have decent bodies as well, so they will be also be desired outside of dedicated Sliver decks. The mana sliver is also a decent fixer outside Sliver decks. So the key slivers for the Sliver deck will need to be picked very early as they will be desired by other drafters as well.
Observation 5: The lifelink sliver is probably not good enough to justify splashing black. The flying sliver is potentially quite good; however, without much in terms of defensive slivers you need to be very careful about your flying sliver getting removed after attackers are declared.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I think this is the critical observation.
In fact, I would go so far as to say Slivers will be drafted successfully by zero players at the average table. Not only is Predatory Sliver the only Common that makes it worthwhile, but also there are Commons in all other colours which can cause combat disasters at instant speed by removing critical Slivers mid-combat.
Worst of all, Predatory Sliver is a solid playable with zero other Slivers, so - as you point out - all the Green players will just randomly take them.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
The biggest change is the 'only yours' change to Slivers, which means you can safely play only a couple of slivers. (You were kinda nuts to play a single Sliver as a creature in TSP, unless it was Plague Sliver.)
I think the key Sliver is Manaweft. Once you have that, the more expensive Slivers become a lot more reasonable (big one, NPI, is the Trample Sliver).
bateleur: I think the best archetype for Slivers is White and something else. White has both the cards to make the slivers more dangerous (Fortify, Doublestrike Sliver) and Hive Stirrings, which I think is getting underrated.
Although I also play defender combo...Bant Ld... and soon Biomancer combo...
But I have fun and play what I enjoy
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
That makes Slivers a weaker strategy, because non-Slivers players will pick them up earlier.
What expensive slivers?
There is 1 common and 1 uncommon sliver with a CMC greater than 3. Slivers is not a ramp strategy.
Stirrings is only good with the green/red power increasers. A couple of 1/2 vigilant guys isn't that great. Heck, even 1/2 vigilant double strikers aren't that impressive.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Having said that, the fact that I doubt the environment will be anything like the competitive deathmatch arena that TSP is should also be considered. There's less upside (because of people poaching slivers), but there's less downside as well.
I do reference the Trample Sliver by name. I guess I should be more explicit: I expect slivers to be a strategy your semi-'force' if you open a really good one (Megantic or Thorncaster).
Stirrings is good with any Power Increaser, and Fortify is the easiest one around.
I will find it very amusing in the 'odd Design achievement' department if they created a Limited environment with slivers where they're not a huge archetype. This is increased if they ARE a big archetype in Constructed formats.
I kind of hate that they're calling these creatures "Slivers." Original Slivers are a very interesting design space. These are just boring French Vanilla creatures disguised under a linear mechanic.
With old Slivers I would never put a Sliver in my deck if I thought it would help my opponent more than it would help myself, and having a single Sliver in my deck would almost invariably do this.
The best example of this would be Predatory Sliver. As a one-of card, it's a bear. Perfectly reasonable. I can play a lone Predatory Sliver I draft. Are you saying that you would play a lone Sinew Sliver you drafted in TSP? I certainly wouldn't.
The same can be said of other Slivers you drafted one-of back in TSP (with the exception of Venser's Sliver).
In a nutshell, they weakened the linearity of the Sliver mechanic and made them better draft cards. So the Sliver strategy is weakened, but the overall cards become stronger.
Things that needed to happen to make slivers viable (one or more, not necessarily all):
1. Hexproof or Shroud Sliver
2. Flash sliver
3. "All slivers" not "all you control"
4. More of them at common
5. Changelings**
6. Sliver tribal spells**
7. Deathtouch sliver
8. Card draw sliver
Slivers will be a 'fail more' strategy in M14 Draft. Quote me on that.
~M
**Apparently, I'm playing too much MMA...
I agree, WG slivers seems the only possible viable route. It's still very dependent on the mana sliver - fixing is extremely little in this format, and from what is there, a lot of it is uncommon. Is the mana sliver first pickable to force this archetype? I'm likely going to try that once or twice in drafts. I'm not sure if slivers can hold their own however against some of the other uncommons in this set.
Is the mana sliver even playable in most sliver decks?
As a general rule, if the backbone of your deck is 1, 2, and 3 drops which want to attack, you do not want to play play 3+colors and do not want to play 2 mana 1/1s which fix/ramp.
3-color slivers may be like 5-color aggro in DGR.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I don't think the format is able to support such decks, unless you have multiples of predatory slivers. The format is looking to be very defensive and grindy, something a bunch of 2/2s aren't going to pounce on.
You do need some of the beefier dudes, and You need to ramp into them. Additionally, it's the only way the off color rare slivers are consistently playable.
Striking Sliver would make Fortify work well in a 2-color aggressive deck, but I'm not sure how good that would end up. Striking Sliver is also pretty good, though fragile, with Goblin Diplomats, though the aggressive deck would most likely just use it to falter blockers.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
manaweft sliver is one of the few mana rampers in M14, so green players will take it if they want to ramp into 4's and 5's.
This now cuts 2 of the slivers you likely want in your deck if you want to try and draft slivers.
WotC really dropped the ball with slivers, and are much less exciting than the original slivers.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
Predatory Sliver is the most important card. If you don't have 2 of these, other slivers don't really matter at all.
Hive stirrings is the second best card. It is very playable with only one predatory sliver out. Everything else is gravy.
I don't think slivers will be a strategy that sits outside of GW. If you're the GW drafter, then you're also getting good slivers in addition to good GW cards. I think they'll play okay together, but you're not going to get some truly explosive tribal action like in MM
TLDR: Don't ever try and "draft slivers" If you're GW you'll probably pick up the core of the deck, otherwise don't force it. It definitely isn't 5 color either.
2 Striking Sliver
1 Suntail Hawk
2 Sentinel Sliver
2 Master of Diversion
2 Hive Stirrings
2 Charging Griffin
1 Banisher Priest
1 Battle Sliver
2 Goblin Shortcutter
1 Marauding Maulhorn
2 Fortify
1 Shock
1 Pacifism
1 Chandra's outrage
1 Flames of the firebrand
1 Act of treason
Only three uncommons used in this build, so your mileage will vary. I assumed you could only find one of an uncommon/common removal, and that any non removal common you could find two of. This is just a rough estimate to see what the deck would look like and see how it plays. We could adjust some of the factors to more accurately represent an average draft deck, but this is a good start.
This deck looks a lot faster than other builds apparent in the format. The big question is would it be able to effectively fight through the walls. Many of the two drops are one toughness making the first strike slivers not absolute trash.
Like previous posters said, I don't think you will get enough slivers to make a sliver deck, but you will get enough slivers to make your weenies not insignificant. The two most important non-sliver cards are Fortify, to make your first strike more powerful, and Charging Griffin to fill in your aggressive start with some flying pressure. There are no 4 drop common/uncommon slivers so the griffins really help out in this case. Thoughts?
Slivers are just a bunch of decent creatures which will fit nicely into almost any curve, and randomly have some nice synergy. The Sliver deck will obviously happen once in a while when a person gets lucky with the packs, but it won't ever be an archetype.
The key card is manaweft sliver, and is a first pick if you are forcing slivers. The only thing that goes before it are rare slivers (The order goes bonescythe, syphon, megantic, thorncaster, galerider if it comes up). The order after that goes predatory, battle, blur, hive stirrings, striking, sentinel (mostly filler from here down, but 11 slivers are much stronger than 7), steelform, construct, groundshaker. Depending on how many manawefts or striking slivers you get, sentinel may move up.
The key support cards are shock, giant growth, fortify (bomb in this deck), ranger's guile and lay of the land. You should pick up quality slivers over expensive removal- to win games with slivers you want lots in play. More expensive options like chandra's o (hard to cast sometimes), and hunt the weak are definitely playable, but you want to be swinging hard and fast, before decks are capable of putting up a fight. You should keep an eye out for good support cards like naturalize and plummet for the board.
Once you have deployed 2-3 slivers in a row you should have a threatening force and you want to use tempo to your advantage.
This is an example of a deck I recently drafted and 3-0 an 8/4 with it. It was completely busted, and it felt unbeatable. Most of the slivers like construct and sentinel came in really really late...
3x predator
3x sentinel
1x manaweft
1x thorncaster
1x witchstalker
1x briapack alpha
1x sliver construct
1x battlesliver
2x blur sliver
1x striking sliver
1x door of destiny
1x young pyromancer
3x shock
1x giant growth
2x lay of the land
1x fortify
1x shimmering grotta
7x forest
4x mountain
4x plains
Relevant sideboard cards included trollhide, naturalise, and plummet.
Anyways, it is a lot better than most people think. It can win faster than almost an archetype in the format, and often is under represented.
Door of Destinies is secret tech that people will pass quite often. I got mine 9th pick. Megantic, 2 manaweft, 1 steelform, and predator sliver were the backbone. Got a late Galerider and striking slivers, one battle sliver with two Hive stirrings.
Mana weft into early Door was huge. I went 4 color (didn't get any black slivers) and had no trouble dropping any color sliver i wanted. Pick up those darksteel ingots and either lay of the land or the 3-drop enchant land (forgot the name) and you're set. Pacifism for bomb drops and fortify for huge combat tricks.