This is not how bans/unbans work. Its always the enabler that gets the ban, not the card that is being abused. If you would have Yawgmoths will + whatever cards - it would be Yawgs that would be banned. If you would have Stoneforge and batterskull - it would be stone who would be banned and that is exactly how it works. Furthermore, banning a card in order to unban a different card is a thought process that was and wont be never applied in practical means.
Thanks, helpful post.
I know that you can click on those cards but giving rarity next to the name would be even more helpful. Is CMC asking for too much?
Done
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This is not how bans/unbans work. Its always the enabler that gets the ban, not the card that is being abused. If you would have Yawgmoths will + whatever cards - it would be Yawgs that would be banned. If you would have Stoneforge and batterskull - it would be stone who would be banned and that is exactly how it works. Furthermore, banning a card in order to unban a different card is a thought process that was and wont be never applied in practical means.
All of it seems pretty bad. I think the best common removal spell is probably Grisly Spectacle, but it's kinda weird that I'm happy for a four mana Go for the Throat, albeit this isn't an artifact set. Pit Fight seems pretty decent too. Smite will definitely have a home in Orzhov and Esper decks.
But outside of those I don't think removal is very good at all. I do love bounce, but I wouldn't really call that "removal". But overall I think Orzhov has the strongest removal by far. Even Killing Glare should be strong. Next to Orzhov though, I think Gruul has some alright options.
Thanks for making this thread, although I really don't think anything above uncommon should be included. For comparison, here is RtR. Only spells that actually remove or lock down a creature indefinitely are included (i.e. no bounce). "~" = very conditional.
White:
Arrest 3 cmc uncommon
~Avenging Arrow 3 cmc common
Trostani's Judgment 6 cmc common
~Soul Tithe 2 cmc uncommon
Blue:
Paralyzing Grasp 3 cmc common
Black:
Assassin's Strike 6 cmc uncommon
Stab Wound 3 cmc common
Launch Party 4 cmc common
~Slum Reaper 4 cmc uncommon
Ultimate Price 2 cmc uncommon
Red:
Annihilating Fire 3 cmc common
Explosive Impact 6 cmc common
Street Spasm 4 cmc uncommon
~Electrickery 2 cmc common
White looks to be roughly a wash; Angelic Edict is a fair comp to Trostani's Judgment and Smite is worse than Arrest but common, while Arrows of Justice (which should be in White here) is superior to Avenging Arrow but uncommon. Soul Tithe didn't really get played in my experience. Blue definitely has more options than in RtR but they're more tempo-oriented. Black gets a basically unconditional 4 cmc instant at common in Grisly Spectacle that also enables Death's Approach, which is about a Dead Weight in a vacuum but with fairly big upside; Killing Glare is a little more powerful than Assassin's Strike. Red's removal is heavy at uncommon but overall looks stronger than RtR's (Pit Fight and Arrows of Justice should be in red on the OP's list). Green also gets Pit Fight which is a steep upgrade over Aerial Predation.
Of the bicolored removal, Orzhov definitely gets the massive haul with 2 strong unconditional uncommon spells and an Avenging Arrow variant at common.
Gruul gets one solid near-hard removal in Ground Assault, which is incorrectly listed as common above, and flying hate on the charm. Nothing for Boros or Simic. Dimir gets a heavily conditional kill mode on its charm.
On the whole, numerically, the removal available to the guilds--not including bounce, tap, or top-of-library effects--is as follows:
I was thinking about something like this, but for combat tricks. Basically, what you need to be aware of when you are attacking/blocking - so no Sorcery speed stuff, but including pump spells (which is like, all of Gruul, heh).
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Only spells that actually remove or lock down a creature indefinitely are included (i.e. no bounce). "~" = very conditional.
Between Bloodrush, Evolve, and Cipher, you should definitely consider bounce as removal.
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just make sure to remember Bloodrush when you're holding Dimir Charm and Killing Glare. Using these cards upon declaration of attack step instead of waiting for guys to turn sideways will probably decide a few matches at the prerelease. I kind of like this sort of condition built into the set design. It makes for a unique limited environment.
Also, don't be afraid to use Rapid Hybridization on one of your own dudes when profitable. Great way to get unexpected Evolve triggers during combat!
Remember that Smite is more for Orzhov than for Boros due to its relative compatibility with guild mechanics.
Angelic Edict looks like a trap. Sorcery speed and no Populate don't seem worthy of only one mana savings versus Trostani's Judgment. Plus, there's no Scavenge in this format, so the exile doesn't seem particularly relevant.
Ætherize looks good in general, but fantastic for Esper decks. Resetting a whole attack step while potentially extorting sometime on turns 5-7 seems like it could really tempo you to a win.
Finally, Pit Fight looks like it might be the single most important card for Gruul decks. Red removal is quite conditional, Sorcery speed or too highly costed to be used in conjunction with Bloodrush.
Between Bloodrush, Evolve, and Cipher, you should definitely consider bounce as removal.
These mechanics aren't really anything new though. Bloodrush are basically standard combat tricks. Evolve is counters, and cipher are auras. I wouldn't consider bounce removal against any of those strategies. Very effective, yes, but its basically still tempo hits, as it always been. Especially considering the fact that cipher basically gets something when its immediately cast, and bouncing against simic is probably just beneficial, if anything, some of the time. If the derpy gruul player dumps his hand into one creature attacking against a blue player with open four, that's his own fault for being a poor player.
Just make sure to remember Bloodrush when you're holding Dimir Charm and Killing Glare. Using these cards upon declaration of attack step instead of waiting for guys to turn sideways will probably decide a few matches at the prerelease. I kind of like this sort of condition built into the set design. It makes for a unique limited environment.
These mechanics aren't really anything new though. Bloodrush are basically standard combat tricks. Evolve is counters, and cipher are auras.
I agree with the Cipher bit (although that brings up whether you should grant bounce a higher court in an enchantment heavy set) but Bloodrush is significant as they're not losing a Giant Growth, they're losing a creature card... and Evolve, while being counters, is an intent strategy... so the value is a bit better bouncing a 3/4 Cloudfin Raptor that bouncing a 4/6 Towering Indrik. Perhaps I'm a bit hasty in considering them as "removal," though.
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My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
I agree with the Cipher bit (although that brings up whether you should grant bounce a higher court in an enchantment heavy set) but Bloodrush is significant as they're not losing a Giant Growth, they're losing a creature card... and Evolve, while being counters, is an intent strategy... so the value is a bit better bouncing a 3/4 Cloudfin Raptor that bouncing a 4/6 Towering Indrik. Perhaps I'm a bit hasty in considering them as "removal," though.
I'm not saying "don't take bounce highly", I love bounce, even in core set without these strategies being prevalent. I'm just saying it doesn't actually "remove" creatures unless you're in a token heavy set. Bounce will be very powerful, no doubt about that. But I just still think its largely a tempo hit.
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White:
Angelic Edict 5cmc - common
Luminate Primordial 7cmc - rare
Smite 1cmc - common
Bllue:
Ætherize 4cmc - uncommon
Hands of Binding 2cmc - common - not technicaly a removal but a strong option in limited.
Rapid Hybridization 1cmc - uncommon
Totally Lost 5cmc - common
Black:
Death's Approach 1cmc - common
Devour Flesh 2cmc - common
Grisly Spectacle 4cmc - common
Killing Glare - X1cmc - uncommon
Red:
Cinder Elemental 4cmc - uncommon
Five-Alarm Fire - to some extent (3cmc - rare)
Homing Lightning 4cmc - uncommon
Mark for Death - indirect removal (4cmc - uncommon)
Massive Raid 3cmc - common
Mugging 1cmc - common
Green:
No
Boros:
Aurelia's Fury X2cmc - mythic
Firemane Avenger 4cmc - rare
Arrows of Justice 3cmc - uncommon
Gruul:
Borborygmos Enraged 8cmc - mythic
Clan Defiance X2cmc - rare
Ground Assault 2cmc - uncommon
Gruul Charm 2cmc - uncommon
Gruul Ragebeast 7cmc -rare
Pit Fight 2cmc - common
Dimir:
Dimir Charm 2cmc - uncommon
Dinrova Horror 6cmc - uncommon
Orzov:
Executioner's Swing 2cmc - common
High Priest of Penance 2cmc - rare
Merciless Eviction 6cmc - rare
One Thousand Lashes 4cmc - uncommon
Orzhov Charm 2cmc - uncommon
Simic:
Simic Charm 2cmc - uncommon
So what do you think guys. Which guild has best removal options?
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Uncommon definitely has to go to One Thousand Lashes. Although Orzhov Charm seems necessary too. Homing Lightning will probably be powerful too. It's hard to say on that.
But outside of those I don't think removal is very good at all. I do love bounce, but I wouldn't really call that "removal". But overall I think Orzhov has the strongest removal by far. Even Killing Glare should be strong. Next to Orzhov though, I think Gruul has some alright options.
White:
Arrest 3 cmc uncommon
~Avenging Arrow 3 cmc common
Trostani's Judgment 6 cmc common
~Soul Tithe 2 cmc uncommon
Blue:
Paralyzing Grasp 3 cmc common
Black:
Assassin's Strike 6 cmc uncommon
Stab Wound 3 cmc common
Launch Party 4 cmc common
~Slum Reaper 4 cmc uncommon
Ultimate Price 2 cmc uncommon
Red:
Annihilating Fire 3 cmc common
Explosive Impact 6 cmc common
Street Spasm 4 cmc uncommon
~Electrickery 2 cmc common
Green:
~Aerial Predation 3 cmc common
Multi:
Auger Spree 3 cmc common
Izzet Charm 2 cmc uncommon
Rites of Reaping 6 cmc uncommon
Selesnya Charm 2 cmc uncommon
~Izzet Staticaster 3 cmc uncommon
~Golgari Charm 2 cmc uncommon
White looks to be roughly a wash; Angelic Edict is a fair comp to Trostani's Judgment and Smite is worse than Arrest but common, while Arrows of Justice (which should be in White here) is superior to Avenging Arrow but uncommon. Soul Tithe didn't really get played in my experience. Blue definitely has more options than in RtR but they're more tempo-oriented. Black gets a basically unconditional 4 cmc instant at common in Grisly Spectacle that also enables Death's Approach, which is about a Dead Weight in a vacuum but with fairly big upside; Killing Glare is a little more powerful than Assassin's Strike. Red's removal is heavy at uncommon but overall looks stronger than RtR's (Pit Fight and Arrows of Justice should be in red on the OP's list). Green also gets Pit Fight which is a steep upgrade over Aerial Predation.
Of the bicolored removal, Orzhov definitely gets the massive haul with 2 strong unconditional uncommon spells and an Avenging Arrow variant at common.
Gruul gets one solid near-hard removal in Ground Assault, which is incorrectly listed as common above, and flying hate on the charm. Nothing for Boros or Simic. Dimir gets a heavily conditional kill mode on its charm.
On the whole, numerically, the removal available to the guilds--not including bounce, tap, or top-of-library effects--is as follows:
Orzhov: 6 common, 4 uncommon (!)
Boros: 5 common, 4 uncommon
Gruul: 3 common, 6 uncommon
Dimir: 3 common, 3 uncommon
Simic: 1 common, 1 uncommon (!!!)
Arrows of Justice similarly belongs in R, W, Boros, Gruul and Orzhov.
I feel like there's more removal than usual in this set and most of it is pretty decent.
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Agreed on both counts in this post. Removal in GTC is quite good, particuarly in Orzhov (as it should be).
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Between Bloodrush, Evolve, and Cipher, you should definitely consider bounce as removal.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
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Also, don't be afraid to use Rapid Hybridization on one of your own dudes when profitable. Great way to get unexpected Evolve triggers during combat!
Remember that Smite is more for Orzhov than for Boros due to its relative compatibility with guild mechanics.
Angelic Edict looks like a trap. Sorcery speed and no Populate don't seem worthy of only one mana savings versus Trostani's Judgment. Plus, there's no Scavenge in this format, so the exile doesn't seem particularly relevant.
Ætherize looks good in general, but fantastic for Esper decks. Resetting a whole attack step while potentially extorting sometime on turns 5-7 seems like it could really tempo you to a win.
Finally, Pit Fight looks like it might be the single most important card for Gruul decks. Red removal is quite conditional, Sorcery speed or too highly costed to be used in conjunction with Bloodrush.
These mechanics aren't really anything new though. Bloodrush are basically standard combat tricks. Evolve is counters, and cipher are auras. I wouldn't consider bounce removal against any of those strategies. Very effective, yes, but its basically still tempo hits, as it always been. Especially considering the fact that cipher basically gets something when its immediately cast, and bouncing against simic is probably just beneficial, if anything, some of the time. If the derpy gruul player dumps his hand into one creature attacking against a blue player with open four, that's his own fault for being a poor player.
Awesome observation I had not thought of. Thanks.
I agree with the Cipher bit (although that brings up whether you should grant bounce a higher court in an enchantment heavy set) but Bloodrush is significant as they're not losing a Giant Growth, they're losing a creature card... and Evolve, while being counters, is an intent strategy... so the value is a bit better bouncing a 3/4 Cloudfin Raptor that bouncing a 4/6 Towering Indrik. Perhaps I'm a bit hasty in considering them as "removal," though.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
I'm not saying "don't take bounce highly", I love bounce, even in core set without these strategies being prevalent. I'm just saying it doesn't actually "remove" creatures unless you're in a token heavy set. Bounce will be very powerful, no doubt about that. But I just still think its largely a tempo hit.