Your argument seems to be centered around the idea that it is easy to pick up 23 playables in most cases. While this is makes more sense for formats with a ton of playables and/or draft pods with weaker players, the general consensus is that this is bad in a typical environment that isnt full of playables with experienced players drafting. There is also a difference between the 23rd best card in your deck in a vaccuum, and given the context of a deck.
Lets take the example of you are solidly in GW in pack 3, its P3P3, you have 2 2 drops, and you get passed Lightning Axe and devilthorn fox. Fox is filler that you need as a 2 drop at this point in time, lightning axe is premium removal that will destroy you if played against you. The argument here is that hatedrafting is bad, because even though the axe is great, if you dont pick up another two drop, your curve is bad. Therefore, you are more likely to lose games because you missed your two drop as opposed to getting axed. Now, in more inexperienced pods you can get away with this: at FNM i routinely have 28 playables, and could take the axe because better two drop than the fox will show up later and I will have more than enough playables to fill out my deck. In more experienced pods, ive gotten two drops completely cut off and was burned because I got greedy taking a card not in my colors or trying to enable a splash.
Hate drafting IS poor in packdraft. In cube draft, it plays way better than a simplistic explanation would have you think. There is more than one person who CAN take the card you pass, though it ends up where it ends up, of course. It is an essential skill to learn, to win cube, you do this easily 10% of the time, no joke. Unless you get passed ultra gas. Ultra gas beats it. Cards 20-23, as multicandidates with time on the accumulator clock to go, don't beat cards one through three. Just thought you might like to know.
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"Warning: Um, warning. This is going to be a game state violation. And a taking extra turns and drawing extra cards violation, pretty much, a whole bunch of violations. Look at me, I'm the DCI."
As much as I hate to agree with someone who has the word jayhawk in his username he just hit almost every single nail on the head in regard to hate, or as it's apparently also called, "defensive" drafting. Hate drafting is, by definition, taking one card that you know you will not play over one card that you may have had some use for. One opponent will take the card if it's passed, which means in a typical 8 man 3 round draft you have a 42.857% chance of playing against them (3/7). The odds of drawing a particular card in a particular match is less than 100%; I would know after not drawing my Arlinn Kord at all last Friday. Even after the card has jumped through all the hoops of dodging other potential hate drafters, reaching your table, and getting drawn (impossible to calculate this precisely but it's probably between a 1/4 and 1/3 chance) you still have the opportunity to beat it, which is much more likely if you don't have a pool that's been watered down by multiple hate drafts.
Let's also remind ourselves that in over half of your games you are allowed to sideboard, but you need cards that are either too narrow or not quite good enough in a vacuum in order to do it. Clip Wings is premium removal against the right opponent and Stoic Builder is the nuts against bears.dec. Hell, I boarded in Hulking Devil once and that card would never make the main deck.
So, there is no such thing as a "hatepick/draft" in booster one or two ?
"Might never play..." - but you might, so basically you can never say that there is basically no reason for hatedrafting ?
... For example, if you made 12 solid U/B eldrazi picks in pack one of triple Battle for Zendikar then you should pass the P2P1 Gideon (ignoring monetary value) even though it's miles better than anything else in the pack and might beat you if an opponent has it. ...
Id say the opposite, that barring a (close to) very good card in your colors then you should defensive draft the Gideon.
My experience with mtg drafters is that they end up with 8+ too many 20-23d cards, that is many defensive picks that would substantially have lowered the quality of the other decks in the draft, and thus increased your chances further to win it.
Many of us have already done this, but its worth breaking down again why hatedrafting is usually bad. If you literally see no cards that would make your deck or be useful in your sideboard, then sure take the best card, but hatedrafting usually implies that you could have chosen a C-level card that would have made your deck.
When you hatedraft, you are impacting one opponent's deck. There is only about a 43% chance that you will play that player at all so right away 57% of the time you worsened your own deck for no gain at all. Even if you do play against that player, first they have to draw that card which often doesn't happen. Maybe 1 or 2 of the games out of 3. Then they have to cast it. Then the card has to matter to the outcome of the game.
In exchange for making one player's deck slightly worse, who you might not play, and which probably won't impact the outcome even if you do play them, you are exchanging, say your 15th or 16th-best card for that 24th card that wouldn't have quite made the cut. You are probably playing a D instead of a C. You made your deck a bit worse against all opponents in all matches, and its probably going to matter for at least 1 or 2 games.
Thats the subjective explanation against hatedrafting, some people have used some math for specific formats and situations and it usually pencils out against hatedrafting.
- If you literally see no cards that would make your deck or be useful in your sideboard, then sure take the best card...
- There are plenty of times it is best not to take the best card even if there isnt a card for yourself. Sometimes you want players to your left to go down the path that that card represents.
- hatedrafting usually implies that you could have chosen a C-level card that would have made your deck
- Random truth - I disagree 50 percent.
- When you hatedraft, you are impacting one opponent's deck.
This is where I disagree most with you, I believe the crux of our opposing opinions lies here.
- There is only about a 43% chance that you will play that player at all so right away 57% of the time you worsened your own deck for no gain at all. Even if you do play against that player, first they have to draw that card which often doesn't happen. Maybe 1 or 2 of the games out of 3. Then they have to cast it. Then the card has to matter to the outcome of the game.
- I disagree with everything here.
- In exchange for making one player's deck slightly worse, who you might not play, and which probably won't impact the outcome even if you do play them, you are exchanging, say your 15th or 16th-best card for that card that wouldn't have quite made the cut. You are probably playing a D instead of a C. You made your deck a bit worse against all opponents in all matches, and its probably going to matter for at least 1 or 2 games.
- Well yes, but dont you see how little this means ? Card 16/17th might be extremely close to how good card 15/16th is, and so forth, card 24 might be just as good as card 23.
The quality difference betweem A and B class cards is much bigger than the quality difference between C and D class cards. The potential danger with too much defensive drafting is if you end up with only 22 playables for a 24 card deck (or 21 for a 23 card deck) - then you have made a very big error.
- Thats the subjective explanation against hatedrafting.
- I see this more as misconceptions than something subjective, seen/heard this many times before.
- some people have used some math for specific formats and situations and it usually pencils out against hatedrafting
- I dont believe much in calculations at various mtg-sites, for one thing it is very hard to pick relevant factors/numbers to involve in such calculations.
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Lets take the example of you are solidly in GW in pack 3, its P3P3, you have 2 2 drops, and you get passed Lightning Axe and devilthorn fox. Fox is filler that you need as a 2 drop at this point in time, lightning axe is premium removal that will destroy you if played against you. The argument here is that hatedrafting is bad, because even though the axe is great, if you dont pick up another two drop, your curve is bad. Therefore, you are more likely to lose games because you missed your two drop as opposed to getting axed. Now, in more inexperienced pods you can get away with this: at FNM i routinely have 28 playables, and could take the axe because better two drop than the fox will show up later and I will have more than enough playables to fill out my deck. In more experienced pods, ive gotten two drops completely cut off and was burned because I got greedy taking a card not in my colors or trying to enable a splash.
Let's also remind ourselves that in over half of your games you are allowed to sideboard, but you need cards that are either too narrow or not quite good enough in a vacuum in order to do it. Clip Wings is premium removal against the right opponent and Stoic Builder is the nuts against bears.dec. Hell, I boarded in Hulking Devil once and that card would never make the main deck.
- There are plenty of times it is best not to take the best card even if there isnt a card for yourself. Sometimes you want players to your left to go down the path that that card represents.
- hatedrafting usually implies that you could have chosen a C-level card that would have made your deck
- Random truth - I disagree 50 percent.
- When you hatedraft, you are impacting one opponent's deck.
This is where I disagree most with you, I believe the crux of our opposing opinions lies here.
- There is only about a 43% chance that you will play that player at all so right away 57% of the time you worsened your own deck for no gain at all. Even if you do play against that player, first they have to draw that card which often doesn't happen. Maybe 1 or 2 of the games out of 3. Then they have to cast it. Then the card has to matter to the outcome of the game.
- I disagree with everything here.
- In exchange for making one player's deck slightly worse, who you might not play, and which probably won't impact the outcome even if you do play them, you are exchanging, say your 15th or 16th-best card for that card that wouldn't have quite made the cut. You are probably playing a D instead of a C. You made your deck a bit worse against all opponents in all matches, and its probably going to matter for at least 1 or 2 games.
- Well yes, but dont you see how little this means ? Card 16/17th might be extremely close to how good card 15/16th is, and so forth, card 24 might be just as good as card 23.
The quality difference betweem A and B class cards is much bigger than the quality difference between C and D class cards. The potential danger with too much defensive drafting is if you end up with only 22 playables for a 24 card deck (or 21 for a 23 card deck) - then you have made a very big error.
- Thats the subjective explanation against hatedrafting.
- I see this more as misconceptions than something subjective, seen/heard this many times before.
- some people have used some math for specific formats and situations and it usually pencils out against hatedrafting
- I dont believe much in calculations at various mtg-sites, for one thing it is very hard to pick relevant factors/numbers to involve in such calculations.