How are people feeling about the spells lands (mortuary mire, etc.) now?
Last Friday, someone who I consider a good drafter told me he didn't play them because the EtB tapped and the tempo loss is not offset by the effect.
Up to that point, I was still fairly up on them, playing them, especially those on-color. I seem to recall people generally liking them. As the evaluation on them changed? Are they considered not good enough to be played?
I like the white and blue ones, can't remember what they're called. Being able to prevent a creature from untapping is something I like in limited, especially when games get grindy
I am glad that you brought this up because I have been somewhat reconsidering these, though I am left with the same opinion. I have not liked them at all, with the exception of Fertile Thicket which I think is a very good card to include in any green deck (I rarely play green, though, so there is that); I will only refer to the other 4 cards in the rest of this post.
When I see my opponent play one of these on anything but turn 1 I am usually glad because it means that they have one less mana to spend than I would expect. There are times when the effect actually makes a difference but there are times when it does not and can hurt my opponent's board development in sometimes a big way if in the mid-game. I also see this in draft videos.
The times when the effect makes a difference are usually in my view not significant enough to justify the times when the coming into play tapped is a detriment. For example, allowing an attack for a few damage when otherwise there would be no attack is a good effect but as a best-case scenario it is usually not worth the risk in my view.
Despite this, I believe that it is viable to include one of them in a deck if the situation warrants, it is a close call. For example, I could see playing Mortuary Mire in a deck which has some great creatures either main deck or sideboarding it in against a deck with a good amount of non-exile removal; also, I would want to include this only in a slower deck. A situation in which the red, white, or blue one of these cards are more worth playing is if my curve had open spots at 4 or 5, so maybe if I had a glut of 3s and very few 4s.
Opinions I have read and heard seem mixed on these cards, though, so you will probably receive a variety of responses anywhere from they are not good at all to they are almost the equivalent of putting a spell in a land slot.
I like the design of these cards because of that. They present more viable choices.
I think they're pretty low pick, but usually worth including in your deck. This isn't constructed: rarely are you going to curve out perfectly, which means that you will usually have a place to play this that doesn't cost you any tempo. They're not free: some percentage of the time you'll draw one of this and really need the extra mana for the turn, but generally they're a small net gain for the power level of your deck.
Like most cards, they're not for every deck, but they're good when they're in the right place. If you want your deck to have a high land count (because you're playing landfall and simply making the land drop is more important than using the mana, or because you have a high curve and you're playing for the long game) then you might as well have a few of these. The green, white, and red ones are all nice things to have in, say, a landfall deck with access to Sylvan Scrying. It's a mistake to play several of them in slots that would otherwise hold basics and expect your tempo to be unaffected, but if you put one in what would otherwise be your last spell slot because you want the effect then sure.
I think they're the definition of filler. Assuming they fit the deck, I'll play on-color ones most of the time without complaint but I never actively look to draft them. The only exception is Fertile Thicket. I generally draft it higher than the others because it's just a handy card to have around.
I actually still like Mortuary Mire. Other than RB, Bx decks are grindy and nullifying a removal spell is pretty reasonable.
I think I have run 3 in controlling decks.
Fertile Thicket I think is great in 3-4 color, but otherwise meh.
The blue one I find annoying. It's a big positive tempo play when you are racing, but very bad in setup phase and probably does nothing in a board stall. I usually play one though.
The red and white ones are usually OK as 1 of in decks that are attacking. I think that you almost always want them as 18th lands though.
I like all of them, although generally a bit less than I expected going in. The effects are weak, but I disagree with your friend's tempo loss concern, as this really isn't a curve out format where you get punished very often for missing one beat early. I'll almost always play one, maybe two depending on my build.
I like them all, except for the black one. Red and white I think are the best, but I don't mind the blue one either. The green one I'll play if I'm 3+ colors, which is almost always the case when I'm green.
The nice part about the cycle is that they're of filler quality, but in the land slot. "Filler," by definition, is non-land cards used to get you to 22-23. Adding spice without sacrificing draws is pretty groovy.
I haven't fallen in love with the U one... Not tapping the creature means it's too often a wash for me to be excited about it. Though, I have lost to it (against you, right, Sene?)
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Yeah, I basically never pick them until there is nothing left in the pack but then I almost always play at least one of them, particularly in anything remotely midrangey.
The BFZ format is low power and I have a lot of games go down to less than 5 life. They seem like small effects but being able to push through that extra 2-3 damage can be the differene between win and lose.
The U one is fine, just keeping thier big threat or mana ramp dude tapped down is great for those skies decks in blue that are trying to race. The black one is great for BW allies, the red one gets a guy through a blocker, the white one allows defence and attack the green one helps fixing gives you landfall. They are just really well balanced cards
You do have to be careful not to ruin your curve and tempo yourself with them.
I almost always play 3+ colors (what can I say....), so if one of them is green, I'll always run Fertile Thicket because the fixing is poor in BFZ.
By the way, I ran 5 color control-ly in a BFZ draft last week (basically sutai splash RW) that used a couple of Thickets to good ends. The 2-2 record seems bad, but the losses played out with each game 3 coming down to a couple lifepoints, so all matches were competitive. Basically I draft all of the removal and fixing (Thickets, green get-a-land spells, EvoWilds) in every color highly, try to get a couple of resilient threats, and some card drawing if I can. If there isn't an obvious mainboard card in a given pack, I'll try to draft some cheap aggro creatures of 1 or 2 colors so I can sideboard into a tempo deck if game 1 goes badly. I was boarding in 5-7 cards some matches last week. It's hard to get the right threats and fixing, but the upsides are that there is almost always something in every pack worth taking and converge spells (Skyrider Elves, woot woot) are fantastic. Anyway, that's my fun, high-variance approach to BFZ...basically, draft it like it's triple-Khans!
I've been wondering whether they would work as reasonable enablers for some of the good converge cards. I picked up an Exert Influence in a draft yesterday and ended up putting a copy of each of the red and black lands into my base-blue deck to help expand the Influence's range. Unfortunately I didn't draw Influence all that often, so it was hard to gauge the results. Has anyone else tried this?
I haven't fallen in love with the U one... Not tapping the creature means it's too often a wash for me to be excited about it. Though, I have lost to it (against you, right, Sene?)
Sounds right, though I don't remember to detail what happened.
Sort of fun Fertile Thicket story: I was on the play, had mulled to six, and kept a one-lander with Fertile Thicket. Scry revealed a Plains on the top of my library. On my turn 1 I opted to ship the turn witout playing the Thicket. Ended up winning that game without playing a land on my first turn - a first for me in Limited! Deliberately, anyway - I may have accidentally F6'd through my first turn on occasion.
Looming Spires is the best one. It pushes damage through and first strike makes it so it's hard to even make a trade. I think it's better than the white one because if your deck cares about one extra damage it probably doesn't care about blocking. Slab Hammer and Looming Spires is a brutal combo.
The green and black ones are ok I guess, the small risk makes them worth playing 99% of the time, but the benefit is small as well so they are not a priority at all during the draft.
I don't even bother playing the blue one. If my opponent has a creature out I'd rather play an untapped land and cast a creature that can block it, instead of a tapped land and a behind-curve creature. Maybe if I had a slab hammer to combo with it but I don't know why I would be running Slab Hammer in a blue deck.
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Last Friday, someone who I consider a good drafter told me he didn't play them because the EtB tapped and the tempo loss is not offset by the effect.
Up to that point, I was still fairly up on them, playing them, especially those on-color. I seem to recall people generally liking them. As the evaluation on them changed? Are they considered not good enough to be played?
When I see my opponent play one of these on anything but turn 1 I am usually glad because it means that they have one less mana to spend than I would expect. There are times when the effect actually makes a difference but there are times when it does not and can hurt my opponent's board development in sometimes a big way if in the mid-game. I also see this in draft videos.
The times when the effect makes a difference are usually in my view not significant enough to justify the times when the coming into play tapped is a detriment. For example, allowing an attack for a few damage when otherwise there would be no attack is a good effect but as a best-case scenario it is usually not worth the risk in my view.
Despite this, I believe that it is viable to include one of them in a deck if the situation warrants, it is a close call. For example, I could see playing Mortuary Mire in a deck which has some great creatures either main deck or sideboarding it in against a deck with a good amount of non-exile removal; also, I would want to include this only in a slower deck. A situation in which the red, white, or blue one of these cards are more worth playing is if my curve had open spots at 4 or 5, so maybe if I had a glut of 3s and very few 4s.
Opinions I have read and heard seem mixed on these cards, though, so you will probably receive a variety of responses anywhere from they are not good at all to they are almost the equivalent of putting a spell in a land slot.
I like the design of these cards because of that. They present more viable choices.
I think I have run 3 in controlling decks.
Fertile Thicket I think is great in 3-4 color, but otherwise meh.
The blue one I find annoying. It's a big positive tempo play when you are racing, but very bad in setup phase and probably does nothing in a board stall. I usually play one though.
The red and white ones are usually OK as 1 of in decks that are attacking. I think that you almost always want them as 18th lands though.
The nice part about the cycle is that they're of filler quality, but in the land slot. "Filler," by definition, is non-land cards used to get you to 22-23. Adding spice without sacrificing draws is pretty groovy.
I haven't fallen in love with the U one... Not tapping the creature means it's too often a wash for me to be excited about it. Though, I have lost to it (against you, right, Sene?)
My Decks:
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Grimgrin, Corpseborn
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The BFZ format is low power and I have a lot of games go down to less than 5 life. They seem like small effects but being able to push through that extra 2-3 damage can be the differene between win and lose.
The U one is fine, just keeping thier big threat or mana ramp dude tapped down is great for those skies decks in blue that are trying to race. The black one is great for BW allies, the red one gets a guy through a blocker, the white one allows defence and attack the green one helps fixing gives you landfall. They are just really well balanced cards
You do have to be careful not to ruin your curve and tempo yourself with them.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
By the way, I ran 5 color control-ly in a BFZ draft last week (basically sutai splash RW) that used a couple of Thickets to good ends. The 2-2 record seems bad, but the losses played out with each game 3 coming down to a couple lifepoints, so all matches were competitive. Basically I draft all of the removal and fixing (Thickets, green get-a-land spells, EvoWilds) in every color highly, try to get a couple of resilient threats, and some card drawing if I can. If there isn't an obvious mainboard card in a given pack, I'll try to draft some cheap aggro creatures of 1 or 2 colors so I can sideboard into a tempo deck if game 1 goes badly. I was boarding in 5-7 cards some matches last week. It's hard to get the right threats and fixing, but the upsides are that there is almost always something in every pack worth taking and converge spells (Skyrider Elves, woot woot) are fantastic. Anyway, that's my fun, high-variance approach to BFZ...basically, draft it like it's triple-Khans!
Sort of fun Fertile Thicket story: I was on the play, had mulled to six, and kept a one-lander with Fertile Thicket. Scry revealed a Plains on the top of my library. On my turn 1 I opted to ship the turn witout playing the Thicket. Ended up winning that game without playing a land on my first turn - a first for me in Limited! Deliberately, anyway - I may have accidentally F6'd through my first turn on occasion.
The green and black ones are ok I guess, the small risk makes them worth playing 99% of the time, but the benefit is small as well so they are not a priority at all during the draft.
I don't even bother playing the blue one. If my opponent has a creature out I'd rather play an untapped land and cast a creature that can block it, instead of a tapped land and a behind-curve creature. Maybe if I had a slab hammer to combo with it but I don't know why I would be running Slab Hammer in a blue deck.