A lot of people on this and other sites were saying Abzan was the best clan before the prerelease. Now that we've played with the cards, does it live up to the hype? I was planning to play Abzan but my LGS ran out so I ended up with Temur and I'm pretty glad. Outlast seems slow and clunky, and the solid removal in this set makes it look foolish. I think Abzan is at best the third best clan behind Mardu and Temur.
Ugh, I played abzan and sultai and not only was the sultai pool absolute garbage but it demonstrated how overcosted all of the delve cards are if you have more than 1 or 2 in your deck. Abzan was clearly the best at the shop I played at, but again, that might just be because more informed players were picking abzan.
It depends on what you mean by living up to the hype. I heard a few complaints from people who thought Abzan was seriously overpowered, and that choosing any other clan would be strategically foolish; if that's the level of hype you mean, then no. But (with the major caveat that I don't have real data to say one way or the other), I still feel like Abzan was probably the best prerelease clan from my own experience at a couple CFB prereleases. But really, anecdote is basically useless for answering the question; we'd need some actual data, preferably from multiple large prereleases.
Abzan was 5/8 and 6/8 of the top 8 at the two prereleases I went to. Outlast is clunky, but I never saw any good player+good deck combination outlast an individual card more than once, and more often that not their +1/+1 Counters came down the line from an Armament Squad, Incremental Growth, or a mid-combat blow-out Abzan Charm/Dragonscale 4 mana green instant. The Outlasters, for the most part, have fine bodies even without using their abilities.
Pretty sure I actually used outlast 8 times total during the 7 rounds of swiss, and it was 7 Ainok Bond-kin uses, 1 Longshot Scout use (which was primarily to get him to 4 power to trigger the ferocious on a Bear Punch).
Abzan Charm is the stone-cold nuts. 3 incredibly strong modes. I think other factions have better rares/mythics they can pull, but Abzan's Commons and Uncommons are premium quality. The strongest deck in the room at one of the events was Jeskai, but that required a 6/6 strong, usable rare pull, and 12 on-plan uncommons.
I would say outlast was fairly overhyped but the clan as a whole was probably the strongest, at least from a prerelease/sealed angle. The combination of solid removal and warrior synergies from white black with the green able to fill in pretty much all points of a curve with above average commons as well as the very spikey/meaty rares and arguably the best charm and ascendancy. But we all knew it was the clan that focused on the long game most, and honestly it wasn't overpowered just that the decks came together easily and worked well in sealed.
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I'd say it was very good, but insular. All of the outlast cards are individually decent, but you really need the ability-granting uncommons to put you over the top, and the more of those you get the more outlast guys you want. I'd be careful in draft, as there's a lot of incentive to fight over it.
Sultai and Mardu were much better than expected, Temur had decent cards (thanks to morph) but no synergy, and Jeskai was powerful but sucked if the deck didn't come together perfectly.
I'd say it was very good, but insular. All of the outlast cards are individually decent, but you really need the ability-granting uncommons to put you over the top, and the more of those you get the more outlast guys you want. I'd be careful in draft, as there's a lot of incentive to fight over it.
Sultai and Mardu were much better than expected, Temur had decent cards (thanks to morph) but no synergy, and Jeskai was powerful but sucked if the deck didn't come together perfectly.
I disagree. You want the Outlast lords for sure, but then rather than other outlast creatures, you want the +1/+1 counter enablers. Armament Corps, Feat of Resistance, Incremental Growth. High Sentinels of Arashin is fabulous too, but rare. Using outlast itself is a backup plan, and is more for breaking parity in a stalled game than an actual game plan.
Someone made a point that more good players may have chosen Abzan. That might swing the results in their direction. I know that I felt very comfortable with Abzan's game plan and although I had a lot of decisions to make in each game, it was a deck that provided options against each of the decks I found myself against. The fact that it comfortably transitions between beatdown and control is a key factor, but knowing when to make that switch requires some skill.
Sultai might also be very strong if piloted by the right players. It has a similar type of flexibility, too.
I think what made it good was the creatures available at common - Abzan has a one-mana Outlast at 0/4 and a two-mana 0/5, which I realized does most of the heavy lifting. Ainok Bond-Kin is an alright card for its costs as well, even the uncommon lords were fine bodies for their cost (I think the weakest ones were Abzan Battle Priest and Tuskguard Captain, First Strike/Flying/Deathtouch ones were the best).
The enablers were VERY important, though. Dragonscale Boon, Armament Corps (insanely efficient at 5), Feat of Resistance and so on, because they allow you to hold up mana/deploy a threat while leaving your Outlast guys on defense. I saw someone at the prerelease who had ALL the Outlast lords and no reliable way to trigger them. You need a mix of both.
I agree with the idea that outlast is a way to break parity and pull ahead later on. You don't Outlast with just one guy on the battlefield (I'd rather play a morph), because that's just begging for you to be blown out. You instead play 0/4, 0/5 walls and morphs to stall, kill anything that can get past, then drop Outlast guys and build them up while hiding behind walls. Hold defense and build up a Sliver army, then take over the game. Knowing when to switch between a control approach and an aggressive one is key. Most of the Abzan players (myself as well) I talked to noted how Disowned Ancestor and Archer's Parapet do some heavy lifting early game, because these are the cards you hide behind while your dudes get bigger.
Abzan lived up to the hype for me. I got third at my pre-release while only playing one rare, and it wasn't an amazing rare by any stretch (Herald of Anafenza). The consistency available at common and uncommon is great in Azban. Incremental Growth was my only real bomb and I just rode consistency in creatures and good removal to 5-1.
It's really good. I played plenty of removals in W and B, including 2x Abzan sweepers (one from booster and one from wedge pack). Fix the mana early, play some fatties later on, sweep and victory. I even splash for red to include bombs like Crater's Claws and Ponyback Brigade.
The only issue of Abzan is speed. I went 1-1 draw with the 3rd game under control several times, and the only 2-0 win came with only a few minutes left.
It's not overhyped. WBgr are easily the strongest colors in the format, which is why Mardu and Abzan decks did so well. Outlast is insane when removal is just OK and all of the outlast creatures are fairly costed with cheap outlast costs that let you play other cards or hold up mana to kill something.
It's a problem of consistency. Of course there were good sultai or jeskai decks, but your tools to win are a lot more reliable when your guys get counters just for tapping and multiple creatures start getting keywords for little cost. You don't have to build your deck in a constructed manner (lots of delve enablers, lots of prowess enablers, etc.)
Have to agree there. When one votes that it's solid but not the best, tell me which clan is better then. Just because one can beat them doesn't say anything either. People choose Abzan because it promises the most consistent set of cards. You can't go wrong with consistent cards. Cards like Kill Shot (which I didn't have when I play 3 Abzan pods), Debilitating Injury, Smite the Monstrous, and Rite of the Serpent are common level cards that kills things without any dumb conditions.
If anyone criticized Outlast, it tends to be pools that contain multiple 4-drop commons and not the black and white ones (1 and 2 drop respectively). Those 4 drops are fairly bad and you would not want to have more than 1 of each. Because the truth is that they are clunky. But in general, Outlast is a very good mechanic.
I played two prereleases and chose abzan in both.
First one my rares were the promo abzan ascendancy and crater's claw which made me splash red. I crushed everyone, losing in the final to another abzan deck that had two siege rhynos and played both of them in both matches.
Second one i had the 5 mana wrath of god, hooded hydra and sagu mauler that made me splash blue. I won.
I didn't prepare a lot for the prerelease and i didn't know anything about the abzan hype, but i came to the conclusion that it was the best color combination by simply looking at the cards and at the mechanics. Outlast is the most consistent mechanic... it may be clunky, but it wins long games and is not conditional. Prowess is good only if you have the perfect creature/spells ratio. Delve is bad in multiples. Ferocious is ok but you won't be able to always have a big creature on the field. The only other mechanic i really liked was raid, but i figured out that heavy aggro deck are less likely to come together in sealed, and so i think mardu will be better in draft than in sealed.
I think the most important thing in both the events was that i had good manafixing that made me able to even splash a 4th color without many issues.
As many have said already, Abzan is consistent and that consistency is part of its strength. It can get run over by a good Temur tempo or quick Mardu rush, or get overpowered by Jeskai or Sultai combos but those deck often requires a good pool and/or good draws. Abzan have decent creatures all along the curve and their creatures are synergistic but aren't dependent on that synergy.
A good deck in other clans can beat Abzan but it's often easier to get a decent to strong deck with Abzan.
I ran Azban at the Accidentally Cool Games Midnight PR. Took 10th out of 42 with a 2-1-1 record running Heavy BW, light G, and a U splash for two Icewing Avans. My loss was to the 2nd place Temur deck that cracked Sarkhan and Surrak. G1 blew out by not drawing mana despite 18 lands plus a banner. G2 got Sarkhan'd before I could dig out Utter End.
Each of my other 3 matches went to time. M1 2-0 v. Mardu. M-2 1-0-time draw in Abzan mirror. M-3 1-1 v. Jeskal starting G3 when time called and no way anyone was winning on T3. Would Jeskal have been different if the lifelink lord hadn't been accidentally misrepresented as the first strike lord causing a massive board stall in G1 ... who knows.
Did anybody else have issues timing out with Azban being too grindy?
I ran Azban at the Accidentally Cool Games Midnight PR. Took 10th out of 42 with a 2-1-1 record running Heavy BW, light G, and a U splash for two Icewing Avans. My loss was to the 2nd place Temur deck that cracked Sarkhan and Surrak. G1 blew out by not drawing mana despite 18 lands plus a banner. G2 got Sarkhan'd before I could dig out Utter End.
Each of my other 3 matches went to time. M1 2-0 v. Mardu. M-2 1-0-time draw in Abzan mirror. M-3 1-1 v. Jeskal starting G3 when time called and no way anyone was winning on T3. Would Jeskal have been different if the lifelink lord hadn't been accidentally misrepresented as the first strike lord causing a massive board stall in G1 ... who knows.
Did anybody else have issues timing out with Azban being too grindy?
GE
I think it's interesting about Abzan being grindy. In the finals of my prerelease I played an Abzan mirror and we finished 3 games in probably 20 minutes. There was another Abzan mirror at another table that went to turns in game 2. I played some long matches, but nothing that was ever really even close to going to time. I'm not sure of the details, but it would be enlightening to see what differences in deck construction might contribute to these really grindy games.
It seemed like a lot of matches went to time at my prerelease. Abzan and Sultai both seem really grindy. That's one of the reasons I like Mardu and Temur, they both have aggressive and proactive plans.
I think it's interesting about Abzan being grindy. In the finals of my prerelease I played an Abzan mirror and we finished 3 games in probably 20 minutes. There was another Abzan mirror at another table that went to turns in game 2. I played some long matches, but nothing that was ever really even close to going to time. I'm not sure of the details, but it would be enlightening to see what differences in deck construction might contribute to these really grindy games.
I didn't find my Abzan deck grindy either.
I played during Onslaught so I knew to value 2 drops, 2/3s and 3/3s very highly. Early game, I kept swinging into opponent's morphs, knowing that I'd be able to play something afterwards that would stop their morphs from swinging back. When their dudes get bigger, I took a turn or two to outlast and then swung again with a bunch of outlast "slivers". I had 5 flyers as well, and the flying outlast lord. Might also be because I played 18 creatures and 4 removals...I must be thinking I was still playing Onslaught, lol.
[quote from="forbiddenvoid »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/limited-sealed-draft/572964-abzan-over-hyped?comment=19"]
I didn't find my Abzan deck grindy either.
I played during Onslaught so I knew to value 2 drops, 2/3s and 3/3s very highly. Early game, I kept swinging into opponent's morphs, knowing that I'd be able to play something afterwards that would stop their morphs from swinging back. When their dudes get bigger, I took a turn or two to outlast and then swung again with a bunch of outlast "slivers". I had 5 flyers as well, and the flying outlast lord. Might also be because I played 18 creatures and 4 removals...I must be thinking I was still playing Onslaught, lol.
Yep, it was pretty much exactly like that. People overprotect their morph creatures, so they don't block with them. It's amazing how you can get 6-8 pts of damage in with a cheap creature. I had one game, I think, that went to maybe turn 13/14, but otherwise I was closing out by turn 7-8 despite Abzan's desire to play 'the long game.'
Incremental Growth and Become Immense were all-stars in my deck, letting me add 6+ pts of damage, several times with lifelink. Feat of Resistance played a huge role in winning a game against a Jeskai deck, too. Good point about flyers, too. The 2/1 morph flyer won a game for me single-handedly.
Yep, it was pretty much exactly like that. People overprotect their morph creatures, so they don't block with them. It's amazing how you can get 6-8 pts of damage in with a cheap creature. I had one game, I think, that went to maybe turn 13/14, but otherwise I was closing out by turn 7-8 despite Abzan's desire to play 'the long game.'
Incremental Growth and Become Immense were all-stars in my deck, letting me add 6+ pts of damage, several times with lifelink. Feat of Resistance played a huge role in winning a game against a Jeskai deck, too. Good point about flyers, too. The 2/1 morph flyer won a game for me single-handedly.
Flyers are so important in this format. A lot of my games were closed out by flyers after some initial aggro. I find the green Reach guys aren't so great at stopping flyers. The 5cc Reach morph is in an awkward, overcrowded mana slot while the Reach outlast lord is very slow if you have to use his own outlast for Reach. I like Alabaster Kirin more each time I cast him. Being able to get in for 2 while blocking morphs is great.
The only problem I had was accepting a 9/10 Human Soldier (or Warrior) taking over a game. That's a flavor fail... I mean these Abzan guys are on Eldrazi steroids if given enough time... Gideon should here recruiting these men instead of those weaklings in Ravinca.
I never saw an outlast creature get more than two counters unless something like Incremental Growth was involved. The board definitely stalls sometimes, but there's a fair bit of removal in this set.
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Pretty sure I actually used outlast 8 times total during the 7 rounds of swiss, and it was 7 Ainok Bond-kin uses, 1 Longshot Scout use (which was primarily to get him to 4 power to trigger the ferocious on a Bear Punch).
Abzan Charm is the stone-cold nuts. 3 incredibly strong modes. I think other factions have better rares/mythics they can pull, but Abzan's Commons and Uncommons are premium quality. The strongest deck in the room at one of the events was Jeskai, but that required a 6/6 strong, usable rare pull, and 12 on-plan uncommons.
Sultai and Mardu were much better than expected, Temur had decent cards (thanks to morph) but no synergy, and Jeskai was powerful but sucked if the deck didn't come together perfectly.
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I disagree. You want the Outlast lords for sure, but then rather than other outlast creatures, you want the +1/+1 counter enablers. Armament Corps, Feat of Resistance, Incremental Growth. High Sentinels of Arashin is fabulous too, but rare. Using outlast itself is a backup plan, and is more for breaking parity in a stalled game than an actual game plan.
Someone made a point that more good players may have chosen Abzan. That might swing the results in their direction. I know that I felt very comfortable with Abzan's game plan and although I had a lot of decisions to make in each game, it was a deck that provided options against each of the decks I found myself against. The fact that it comfortably transitions between beatdown and control is a key factor, but knowing when to make that switch requires some skill.
Sultai might also be very strong if piloted by the right players. It has a similar type of flexibility, too.
The enablers were VERY important, though. Dragonscale Boon, Armament Corps (insanely efficient at 5), Feat of Resistance and so on, because they allow you to hold up mana/deploy a threat while leaving your Outlast guys on defense. I saw someone at the prerelease who had ALL the Outlast lords and no reliable way to trigger them. You need a mix of both.
I agree with the idea that outlast is a way to break parity and pull ahead later on. You don't Outlast with just one guy on the battlefield (I'd rather play a morph), because that's just begging for you to be blown out. You instead play 0/4, 0/5 walls and morphs to stall, kill anything that can get past, then drop Outlast guys and build them up while hiding behind walls. Hold defense and build up a Sliver army, then take over the game. Knowing when to switch between a control approach and an aggressive one is key. Most of the Abzan players (myself as well) I talked to noted how Disowned Ancestor and Archer's Parapet do some heavy lifting early game, because these are the cards you hide behind while your dudes get bigger.
The only issue of Abzan is speed. I went 1-1 draw with the 3rd game under control several times, and the only 2-0 win came with only a few minutes left.
It's a problem of consistency. Of course there were good sultai or jeskai decks, but your tools to win are a lot more reliable when your guys get counters just for tapping and multiple creatures start getting keywords for little cost. You don't have to build your deck in a constructed manner (lots of delve enablers, lots of prowess enablers, etc.)
If anyone criticized Outlast, it tends to be pools that contain multiple 4-drop commons and not the black and white ones (1 and 2 drop respectively). Those 4 drops are fairly bad and you would not want to have more than 1 of each. Because the truth is that they are clunky. But in general, Outlast is a very good mechanic.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
First one my rares were the promo abzan ascendancy and crater's claw which made me splash red. I crushed everyone, losing in the final to another abzan deck that had two siege rhynos and played both of them in both matches.
Second one i had the 5 mana wrath of god, hooded hydra and sagu mauler that made me splash blue. I won.
I didn't prepare a lot for the prerelease and i didn't know anything about the abzan hype, but i came to the conclusion that it was the best color combination by simply looking at the cards and at the mechanics. Outlast is the most consistent mechanic... it may be clunky, but it wins long games and is not conditional. Prowess is good only if you have the perfect creature/spells ratio. Delve is bad in multiples. Ferocious is ok but you won't be able to always have a big creature on the field. The only other mechanic i really liked was raid, but i figured out that heavy aggro deck are less likely to come together in sealed, and so i think mardu will be better in draft than in sealed.
I think the most important thing in both the events was that i had good manafixing that made me able to even splash a 4th color without many issues.
Or perhaps differently stated, 'it's the best, but not for the reasons that many people say it's the best'.
As you and Twin noted, Abzan was consistent.
A good deck in other clans can beat Abzan but it's often easier to get a decent to strong deck with Abzan.
Each of my other 3 matches went to time. M1 2-0 v. Mardu. M-2 1-0-time draw in Abzan mirror. M-3 1-1 v. Jeskal starting G3 when time called and no way anyone was winning on T3. Would Jeskal have been different if the lifelink lord hadn't been accidentally misrepresented as the first strike lord causing a massive board stall in G1 ... who knows.
Did anybody else have issues timing out with Azban being too grindy?
GE
I think it's interesting about Abzan being grindy. In the finals of my prerelease I played an Abzan mirror and we finished 3 games in probably 20 minutes. There was another Abzan mirror at another table that went to turns in game 2. I played some long matches, but nothing that was ever really even close to going to time. I'm not sure of the details, but it would be enlightening to see what differences in deck construction might contribute to these really grindy games.
I didn't find my Abzan deck grindy either.
I played during Onslaught so I knew to value 2 drops, 2/3s and 3/3s very highly. Early game, I kept swinging into opponent's morphs, knowing that I'd be able to play something afterwards that would stop their morphs from swinging back. When their dudes get bigger, I took a turn or two to outlast and then swung again with a bunch of outlast "slivers". I had 5 flyers as well, and the flying outlast lord. Might also be because I played 18 creatures and 4 removals...I must be thinking I was still playing Onslaught, lol.
Yep, it was pretty much exactly like that. People overprotect their morph creatures, so they don't block with them. It's amazing how you can get 6-8 pts of damage in with a cheap creature. I had one game, I think, that went to maybe turn 13/14, but otherwise I was closing out by turn 7-8 despite Abzan's desire to play 'the long game.'
Incremental Growth and Become Immense were all-stars in my deck, letting me add 6+ pts of damage, several times with lifelink. Feat of Resistance played a huge role in winning a game against a Jeskai deck, too. Good point about flyers, too. The 2/1 morph flyer won a game for me single-handedly.
Flyers are so important in this format. A lot of my games were closed out by flyers after some initial aggro. I find the green Reach guys aren't so great at stopping flyers. The 5cc Reach morph is in an awkward, overcrowded mana slot while the Reach outlast lord is very slow if you have to use his own outlast for Reach. I like Alabaster Kirin more each time I cast him. Being able to get in for 2 while blocking morphs is great.
I beat Abzan by casting Villainous Wealth for x=10 and x=9. I would have lost otherwise.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
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Disowned Ancestor
Disowned Ancestor
Mardu Hateblade
Chief of Scale
Chief of Scale
Chief of the Edge
Icefeather Aven
Icefeather Aven
Feat of Resistance
Debilitating Injury
Tuskguard Captain
Kheru Bloodsucker
Abzan Falconer
Sultai Banner
Kill Shot
Smite the Monsterous
Utter End
Ivorytusk Fortress
Ivorytusk Fortress
Abzan Guide
Sultai Scavenger
Woolly Loxodon
5 Plains (8 Sources)
4 Swamps (10 Sources)
Island (6 Sources)
Forest (6 Sources)
Opulent Palace
Sandsteppe Citadel
Thornwood Falls
Dismal Backwater
Scoured Barrens
Jungle Hollow
Tranquil Cove
Key SB:
Kin-Tree Warden
Force Away
Bloodsoaked Champion
Dragonscale Boon
Windstorm
Unyielding Krumar
Witness of the Ages
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG