Hopeful Eidolon is excellent in any deck we get at this point. If we end up W/ or W/ we're happy to have one while Naiad only works in W/ (we're not splashing in a W/ deck).
Not sure I agree with y'all here. Eidolon really only shines with evasion or big butts; it doesn't seem at the moment that it's anywhere near at its best in this deck. However, Naiad would give us two strong reasons to go UW splashing R for Anax.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Do you really splash in this format, though? In my experience, you don't really, especially not if you're not green.
I have never had a problem in this format doing it. I would much rather splash or tint for a couple of good cards then squeeze in a couple on color cards that are not really going to help your deck. All you need is an amulet or two to pull it off.
Ideally you wouldn't splash if you didn't have to in a W/ or W/ deck. The big draw IMO of those decks are speed/low curve and power and you lose speed/consistency splashing. Once we're firmly in either R or U I'm ignoring the other color entirely. I'd rather run Lagonna-Band Elder over splashing for Nimbus Naiad in a W/ deck for example.
There are plenty of decks where a splash is fine....RW isn't really one of them. You're often running cards with WW or RR (Wingsteed Rider, Phalanx Leader, Two-Headed Cerebus, though we don't have any of those yet), and you want to be running an aggressive curve if you can get away with it (15-16 lands). In RW I'd rather have more gas than some slightly more powerful off-color cards.
I don't agree that we should draft planning on splashing.
I would say being the second pick of the second pack and already having blue cards, its not a matter of splashing at this point but finding our second color.
But thats what makes limited and drafting in general so interesting. No 2 people do it alike, and there is no 'right' way to do it. Just guidelines to follow.
I would say being the second pick of the second pack and already having blue cards, its not a matter of splashing at this point but finding our second color.
But thats what makes limited and drafting in general so interesting. No 2 people do it alike, and there is no 'right' way to do it. Just guidelines to follow.
Well, so far in blue we have a Nimbus Naiad and a Battlewise Hoplite, in red we have Anax and Cymede, Coordinated Assault, Minotaur Skullcleaver, and Akroan Hoplite. Our red is stronger than our blue, so why would we want to make our position more strained when we have a great pick that works for either RW or UW?
Well, so far in blue we have a Nimbus Naiad and a Battlewise Hoplite, in red we have Anax and Cymede, Coordinated Assault, and Akroan Hoplite. Our red is stronger than our blue, so why would we want to make our position more strained when we have a great pick that works for either RW or UW?
In my experience only A&C is 'powerful'. C Assault is splahsable and I am not fond of the Akron Hoplite, maybe as a 23rd card. Where as if we take the naiad here we have 2 and the battlewise hoplite which I have found much better then 2 of the 3 cards you mentioned.
Like I said above, we are still early in the draft. Some want to stick with the R/W thing, where others would like to see a push into U/W. Its all about personal preference.
That's a very good point that splashing should not be a "plan" at this stage.
The problem I'm seeing with a lot of these arguments is that while it's possible we're drafting RW, we are almost certainly drafting an unorthodox version of it (of course it's possible that the Wingsteed Riders/Dragon Mantles start flowing, but to end up with a standard RW deck will discount all but 3 or 4 picks out of pack 1, and require some serious flow from both directions.) So far, if we go RW, we're hoping to win with a combo of either Pegasus + Hoplite or Anax + Evangel. * Were we to look at UW here, two Naiads give consistency to any plan revolving around survival and evasion... I particularly like the look of Naiad + Battlewise.
Now, it's unlikely we'll see a ton of Blue in this pack. That is certainly a big consideration. However considering the significant power difference between Naiad and Eidolon (I cannot agree with people saying this is a close pick, simply by virtue of a 1/1 lifelink being unplayable) I think the opportunity cost is little. Eidolon is a huge card with Rider and some others, but nothing that we have... except maybe Battlewise Hoplite.
My point being, if we end up RW, from what it's looking like now, Eidolon isn't going to be much of a card. It's looking like if we try to pursue the RW heroic deck, we're gonna end up with junk. I would prefer to look for the UW deck, in which case the Naiad will be better than the Eidolon.
Forgive me if this is rambly, I'm on painkillers.
*Of course, there is the counter-argument that we're only one pack in, but this works both ways.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My helpy helpdesk of helpfulness.
My Decks: EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn Modern: Polytokes IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
In my experience only A&C is 'powerful'. C Assault is splahsable and I am not fond of the Akron Hoplite, maybe as a 23rd card. Where as if we take the naiad here we have 2 and the battlewise hoplite which I have found much better then 2 of the 3 cards you mentioned.
Like I said above, we are still early in the draft. Some want to stick with the R/W thing, where others would like to see a push into U/W. Its all about personal preference.
...and if we do end up RW? That's the problem with the Naiad pick...it's all or nothing. If we're UW Naiad is a 9 and Hopeful Eidolon is an 8. If we're RW Eidolon is an 8 and Naiad is about a 2. I don't see why we're betting that heavily on UW....if the white card we were considering was much worse I'd probably agree with the Naiad pick, but we're looking at an alternative that's nearly as good for the one deck and far more open.
At this point we are in white (kinda) with options. We dont have the key pieces for RW heroic as of yet. Basing picks on the come is a bad idea, at least for me it is. I dont see the need to cut off one of those options this early to take a card that is not the best in the pack. If it was me sitting at a table drafting what we have drafted, I would go Naiad all day, everyday. Even if we end up in RW, I doubt this one pick will make or break our draft. But if we dont see any more heroic white and/or red we are screwed either way. I like options, which Naiad gives us in the long run.
How I rate what we have picked so far.
1 Anax and Cymede- solid card in right build, truely a build around card.
1 Nimbus Naiad- should make every blue deck, i would consider splashing for this card.
1 Cavalry Pegasus-needs a specific deck
1 Akroan Hoplite-my experience, bad card, maybe a 23 filler.
1 Ray of Dissolution-side board card
1 Evangel of Heliod-needs a heavy white build to be fully useful.
1 Battlewise Hoplite-cheap card that allows for fixing your draws with correct build. should make every UW deck
1 Lagonna-Band Elder-small butt, needs certain cards to be on table to have full impact. not a fan personally.
1 Minotaur Skullcleaver-a dream 3 drop for red decks.
1 Priest of Iroas-meh card, rarely ever a 1 drop.
1 Yoked Ox-side board card.
1 Flamecast Wheel-expensive removal, personally i have never seen it work correctly. too many tricks in the format.
1 Coastline Chimera-can be good in slower controling blue builds.
1 Triton Shorethief-maybe a 23 card, usually sideboard, rarely comes out of the side.
1 Coordinated Assault-nice trick for heroic decks. can be awkward at times.
We're not cutting off options with Eidolon, we're keeping them open. Naiad is the narrower pick by far...it only works in one of the two candidate decks, eidolon works well in both...I have a hard time seeing picking the narrower of our two choices as "keeping our options open". There's no disagreement that Naiaid is the better option if we're ultimately UW, but the gap between the two cards isn't large even in UW...that's the issue with the pick. If it was Naiad vs. say...Lagona-band Elder, Setessan Battle-Priest, or Battlewise Valor, I'd probably go with the Naiad. Eidolon, however, isn't a marginal pick.
Like I said above, we are still early in the draft. Some want to stick with the R/W thing, where others would like to see a push into U/W. Its all about personal preference.
I don't think that midway through the second pack is 'early'. We've wavered enough already that we're already going to be either running some stinkers in a two colour deck or be running a cumbersome three colour deck, neither of which is desirable.
If you want to keep options open, you should take Eidolon. If you want WR, you should taken Eidolon. If you want to force UW, then you should take the Naiad (although of course then it was a mistake to take Coordinated Assault over Battlewise Valor last pick).
considering the significant power difference between Naiad and Eidolon (I cannot agree with people saying this is a close pick, simply by virtue of a 1/1 lifelink being unplayable) I think the opportunity cost is little.
I think that you're greatly underestimating Hopeful Eidolon to consider it a 1/1 lifelinker. Of course it's trash if that's what you think the card is. But really it's a variant of Mark of the Vampire, where the lifelink is more relevant, heroic is a thing, and it leaves a creature behind. I've taken Hopeful Eidolon over Observant Alseid multiple times, and I think it's the right choice.
Yes Nimbus Naiad is awesome. And if it was white I'd be agreeing with it. But I can't justify it after the Coordinated Assault pick, which I think is a stronger card than the Naiad.
That's a very good point that splashing should not be a "plan" at this stage.
The problem I'm seeing with a lot of these arguments is that while it's possible we're drafting RW, we are almost certainly drafting an unorthodox version of it (of course it's possible that the Wingsteed Riders/Dragon Mantles start flowing, but to end up with a standard RW deck will discount all but 3 or 4 picks out of pack 1, and require some serious flow from both directions.)
This is the WR deck that is currently drafted:
1 s
2 cc
3 cccs
4
5
6 c
That's 8 cards, and I think it's reasonable to expect 15 more from the next two packs provided we have enough discipline to actually draft them. Of course, drafting blue cards every so often is a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of ending up with a bad WR aggro deck.
<Sigh> If we took the Naiad last pick we could take battlewise hoplite this pack and have a solid direction. Since we are sticking to white hoping the red starts coming, Battlewise Valor is the only option.
@Magicmerl, I dont consider the second pick of the second pack mid way through a pack.
Remember p1p1? When I said naiad? We'd have three naiad and two battle-wise hoplite by now... now that you've all bowed to my skills,
I'm almost, almost I tell you, tempted to say battlewise hoplite. So tempted that I will do so. battlewise hoplite.
Haven't followed the rest but the pick is between battlewise valor and battlewise hoplite. The deck is somewhat favored to RW instead of UW at the moment but I can't really comment on how red was flowing. Looking at these cards I guess the draft is going rather poorly at the moment and the RW deck isn't really coming through which pushed me towards the battlewise hoplite. Hoplite is huge if you end up UW, valor is not the biggest loss if you end up RW anyway.
I clearly don't know how to draft this deck. We are clearly in white and probably red, but maybe blue? I think our blue cards are better than our red cards. And even though it's not ideal, we can squeeze Anax into our UW deck. Valor would be the safest pick, but I don't like it here. I'm taking the Battlewise Hoplite.
Indeed.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
I have never had a problem in this format doing it. I would much rather splash or tint for a couple of good cards then squeeze in a couple on color cards that are not really going to help your deck. All you need is an amulet or two to pull it off.
I don't agree that we should draft planning on splashing.
I would say being the second pick of the second pack and already having blue cards, its not a matter of splashing at this point but finding our second color.
But thats what makes limited and drafting in general so interesting. No 2 people do it alike, and there is no 'right' way to do it. Just guidelines to follow.
Well, so far in blue we have a Nimbus Naiad and a Battlewise Hoplite, in red we have Anax and Cymede, Coordinated Assault, Minotaur Skullcleaver, and Akroan Hoplite. Our red is stronger than our blue, so why would we want to make our position more strained when we have a great pick that works for either RW or UW?
In my experience only A&C is 'powerful'. C Assault is splahsable and I am not fond of the Akron Hoplite, maybe as a 23rd card. Where as if we take the naiad here we have 2 and the battlewise hoplite which I have found much better then 2 of the 3 cards you mentioned.
Like I said above, we are still early in the draft. Some want to stick with the R/W thing, where others would like to see a push into U/W. Its all about personal preference.
The problem I'm seeing with a lot of these arguments is that while it's possible we're drafting RW, we are almost certainly drafting an unorthodox version of it (of course it's possible that the Wingsteed Riders/Dragon Mantles start flowing, but to end up with a standard RW deck will discount all but 3 or 4 picks out of pack 1, and require some serious flow from both directions.) So far, if we go RW, we're hoping to win with a combo of either Pegasus + Hoplite or Anax + Evangel. * Were we to look at UW here, two Naiads give consistency to any plan revolving around survival and evasion... I particularly like the look of Naiad + Battlewise.
Now, it's unlikely we'll see a ton of Blue in this pack. That is certainly a big consideration. However considering the significant power difference between Naiad and Eidolon (I cannot agree with people saying this is a close pick, simply by virtue of a 1/1 lifelink being unplayable) I think the opportunity cost is little. Eidolon is a huge card with Rider and some others, but nothing that we have... except maybe Battlewise Hoplite.
My point being, if we end up RW, from what it's looking like now, Eidolon isn't going to be much of a card. It's looking like if we try to pursue the RW heroic deck, we're gonna end up with junk. I would prefer to look for the UW deck, in which case the Naiad will be better than the Eidolon.
Forgive me if this is rambly, I'm on painkillers.
*Of course, there is the counter-argument that we're only one pack in, but this works both ways.
My Decks:
EDH: Sygg, River Cutthroat , Road to Scion
Grimgrin, Corpseborn
Modern: Polytokes
IRL: Progenitus Polymorph , Goblins
Just a friendly reminder that I will drive this car off a bridge
...and if we do end up RW? That's the problem with the Naiad pick...it's all or nothing. If we're UW Naiad is a 9 and Hopeful Eidolon is an 8. If we're RW Eidolon is an 8 and Naiad is about a 2. I don't see why we're betting that heavily on UW....if the white card we were considering was much worse I'd probably agree with the Naiad pick, but we're looking at an alternative that's nearly as good for the one deck and far more open.
How I rate what we have picked so far.
1 Anax and Cymede- solid card in right build, truely a build around card.
1 Nimbus Naiad- should make every blue deck, i would consider splashing for this card.
1 Cavalry Pegasus-needs a specific deck
1 Akroan Hoplite-my experience, bad card, maybe a 23 filler.
1 Ray of Dissolution-side board card
1 Evangel of Heliod-needs a heavy white build to be fully useful.
1 Battlewise Hoplite-cheap card that allows for fixing your draws with correct build. should make every UW deck
1 Lagonna-Band Elder-small butt, needs certain cards to be on table to have full impact. not a fan personally.
1 Minotaur Skullcleaver-a dream 3 drop for red decks.
1 Priest of Iroas-meh card, rarely ever a 1 drop.
1 Yoked Ox-side board card.
1 Flamecast Wheel-expensive removal, personally i have never seen it work correctly. too many tricks in the format.
1 Coastline Chimera-can be good in slower controling blue builds.
1 Triton Shorethief-maybe a 23 card, usually sideboard, rarely comes out of the side.
1 Coordinated Assault-nice trick for heroic decks. can be awkward at times.
I've never seen Coordinated Assault be anything less than a blowout.
I don't think that midway through the second pack is 'early'. We've wavered enough already that we're already going to be either running some stinkers in a two colour deck or be running a cumbersome three colour deck, neither of which is desirable.
If you want to keep options open, you should take Eidolon. If you want WR, you should taken Eidolon. If you want to force UW, then you should take the Naiad (although of course then it was a mistake to take Coordinated Assault over Battlewise Valor last pick).
I think that you're greatly underestimating Hopeful Eidolon to consider it a 1/1 lifelinker. Of course it's trash if that's what you think the card is. But really it's a variant of Mark of the Vampire, where the lifelink is more relevant, heroic is a thing, and it leaves a creature behind. I've taken Hopeful Eidolon over Observant Alseid multiple times, and I think it's the right choice.
Yes Nimbus Naiad is awesome. And if it was white I'd be agreeing with it. But I can't justify it after the Coordinated Assault pick, which I think is a stronger card than the Naiad.
This is the WR deck that is currently drafted:
1 s
2 cc
3 cccs
4
5
6 c
That's 8 cards, and I think it's reasonable to expect 15 more from the next two packs provided we have enough discipline to actually draft them. Of course, drafting blue cards every so often is a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of ending up with a bad WR aggro deck.
1 Nimbus Naiad
1 Cavalry Pegasus
1 Akroan Hoplite
1 Ray of Dissolution
1 Evangel of Heliod
1 Battlewise Hoplite
1 Lagonna-Band Elder
1 Minotaur Skullcleaver
1 Priest of Iroas
1 Yoked Ox
1 Flamecast Wheel
1 Coastline Chimera
1 Triton Shorethief
1 Coordinated Assault
1 Hopeful Eidolon
P2P3:
Mark your pick by either bolding it or putting it in Quote tags.
I have done myself and everyone else the courtesy of removing the basic lands this time. The next pick will be tomorrow, have fun!
@Magicmerl, I dont consider the second pick of the second pack mid way through a pack.
I'm almost, almost I tell you, tempted to say battlewise hoplite. So tempted that I will do so. battlewise hoplite.
I'm so confused at this point.
Just kidding, Battlewise Valor for me.