A lot of space in your board is going to be filled by silver bullet wish targets. You want one of each combo piece, some protection, some answers to common hate cards, and then some stuff to fill in the gaps.
Do you think Cosi's Trickster deserves a place in maindeck? What about replacing Aether Vial with Chalice of the Void? What do you think about this list (based on yours):
Elves, you could try Holy Light? Might be too slow, but it should mostly wipe their board. If you make it to turn 4, Wrath of God in an option. Grafdiggers Cage should help stop the combo. Chalice of the void might actually help you in this case.
Mono Blue Artifacts, might try Dust to Dust and/or Disenchant. Resolving it might be a problem of course. Leonin Relic Warder also might help you. Armageddon might ruin their day.
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@devnull
To be honest I have never tried this build before, but I have a friend who did. I think it can be strong, but I'm not sure which is stronger. Keep in mind that the only reason they play the trickster with the chalice is that Cavern of Souls allows you to cast him through chalice without getting countered. so, if you play this version I think you should have caverns.
@Ryadriz-
A white weenie list should be able to win those match ups with the right build and sideboard. If you posted your list I could help you out.
As far as a new deck goes, though, green is typically the best artifact hate color out there, with red and white following close behind. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Smash to Smithereens, and Revoke Existence (gets rid of wurmcoil forever) are all things that come to mind. It is also worth mentioning that Pernicious Deed has also gone down in price thanks to its conspiracy reprinting, and that card is very strong in both of those match ups.
Perhaps a g/b control deck? you mentioned you also wanted to play Cabal Therapy. What is your budget?
Some interesting stuff here. I would agree with your suspicions that the weenie deck is sub-optimal compared to other WW variants you could be playing. If you are still interested in playing WW I could help you optimize the list, but ultimately that is up to you.
With playsets of all of those it seems to me that you could easily throw together a decent u/r delver or u/r kiln fiend deck. This could be strong. Your answers to Chalice would come out of the board, and would most likely be either Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree (which can be replicated under the chalice).
What type of deck do you enjoy playing the most? Combo, control, aggro, midrange?
Hey Frossty. This is the budget Metalworker deck I wrote about a while back. Prices have changed since then, so I had to take it down. Still some decent stuff though.
As you can see these are all pretty similar. Should give you an idea of the directions you would want to go, though. Numbers and cards can be swapped throughout these lists, really, these are just here to show you all the different cards and combinations you have access to.
I bet you could take this deck (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/149985) and use the below land base instead of the expensive one. I think that pretty much gets to the $200ish range. If you wanted to shave a little more you could replace Chain Lightning with just about any 1 mana burn spell (even Shock), and you could cut Umezawa's Jitte for more burn.
4 Steam Vents
2 Island
1 Mountain
7 Polluted Delta or Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire or Wooded Foothills
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I'm like, 99% sure that the Force Away in that list is actually Force of Will. Mistakes like that happen from time to time, and there is no reason to play Force Away.
Bosque, I'm pretty sure there's a typo in the list you posted and that Force Away was meant to be Force of Will, which obviously changes the price point considerably. That slot is typically FoW in traditional delver builds, and while a bounce spell can slot well into a tempo deck, there are many other variants that are strictly better in a deck that is unlikely to ever have ferocious online. It's gotta be a typo.
Budget U/R delver with KTK fetches, Steam Vents in place of Volcanics, and a budget disruption option in place of FoW (Spell Pierce?) is still a fairly strong deck. I just didn't want anyone to think the deck with 4x Force Away was good enough to cash in a 200-person, $5000 legacy tournament. The real deck is $300 more than this list.
Edit: or what spooky said much more succinctly at the same time.
Whoops I didn't look hard enough at that list, Force Away seems like a terrible option! I'd still go with my suggestion but replace the Forces with Spell Pierce, Turn Aside, Dispel, Disrupt, Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast (depending how blue your meta is). Depending on how fair and creature based your meta is, even Vapor Snag might be a good option (good against germ tokens for example).
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"how competitive" is a sort of subjective question. I know of people who have done/do well with Demon stompy at local tournaments. I guess that's how I would grade it. It can do well in local events (I was just speaking with someone who saw first hand how powerful it can be at thier local, when a Demon stompy player decimated an elf player in their finals with a Plague Spitter) but I would not be confident if I took it to a lager event, like a 5k or an SCG. It can win, and it will, but it won't survive in long tournaments like other decks can.
Obliterator vs Percy is a matter of preference. I think Obliterator is better, so that's who I run. It's ultimately up to you which you want to play.
On paper or just looks like the deck HAS to resolve an early Chalice to stand a chance. Can you explain how the deck typically plays out?
Also, changing subjects for a bit. I built the following for a weekly casual tourney, but I'm curious at how it'd fair in the Legacy meta. I thought you'd be a great one to ask.
One deck your missing is Fluctuator, I play this from time to time to remind me of the good ol days, I call it my pet deck. Its under 15$ which would make it the super budget:
Cast Fluctuator, cycle everything till you get the 3 combo pieces then WIN. Sideboard just run some duress's since you can only board in 1-2 cards before making the deck too slow and a alternate win condition that can respond to any anti graveyard hate at instant speed. You can also use Pact of Negation over duress but then its not so much Super Budget. And the creatures don't really matter also, just need 29, so some of them like Cloud of Faeries could be cut for any that are like 2 cents each.
Eh, the deck is usually some kind of big turn one play, not necessarily a chalice, though. Trinisphere and Liliana work as well. From there you just play your demons and rats and try to over power your opponent. If you want to see how the deck works I would say proxy it up and play test it against some decks from your meta. I can give you some sideboard ideas if you want.
That mono black list seems pretty decent. I would make some small changes, though. Phyrexian Negator is very bad, especially because Lightning Bolt is very popular right now. He's not the power house he once was, and I would suggest replcing him entirely. Nyxathid, Ashenmoor Gouger, and Dross Harvester are decent replacements in the 3-drop slot. Phyrexian Obliterator, Plague Sliver, Desecration Demon, and Grinning Demon are all fine if you want to move up to a 4 drop slot.
Tombstalker is very good, but 4 is way too many, epseically when you are not running fetchlands. Play 2, and replace the other 2 with something else.
If you want to run Gravecrawler I think you need more zombies. Mayebe use your 2 extra tombstalker slots for Carnophage or Diregraf Ghoul.
I think you are running too much discard. Your deck needs some creature removal besides Spite. Replace 1-4 of the Inquisitions with some combination of Victim of Night and Disfigure.
@ DalekXtrminater
Fluctuator is fun, but I'm not sure if it is reliable/consistent enough, since you need the fluctuator in your opening hand. I will play around with it a bit.
@ LeviatanCL
I have been toying around with Astral Slide and Rifter. I'm not as familiar with the archetype as others, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, lol. I'd love to see a list. I could compare it to mine and see what I can make work.
Negator is there for flavor. I know he isn't optimal.
Spite isn't removal, there is none main deck. Spinning Darkness will probably become GftT in the board.
I want to see Tombstalker early, hence running 4 of him. With early disruption and Dark Ritual getting him out the first few turns isn't hard.
If I were to add removal I think I'd lose the Sinkholes. The idea was that between all the disruption they wouldn't get much to stick on the board though, so I wouldn't need removal.
Honestly I saw spite and I thought it was Reckless Spite.
I'm not worried about you not being able to get one out at a decent rate(thought that is a bit of an issue). I'm worried about what happens when you draw the second one and can't cast it. :/
Right now the Legacy format is one where decks can win with 1-2 mana easily. Delver of Secrets is all many decks need in order to kill you. Deathrite Shaman produces mana, getting around sinkhole, and Young Pyromancer and Stoneforge Mystic both are enormous threats, not to mention Tarmogoyf. Unless they have no lands they will be able to produce a threat.
I have been toying around with Astral Slide and Rifter. I'm not as familiar with the archetype as others, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, lol. I'd love to see a list. I could compare it to mine and see what I can make work.
this is a rough version, but i think we could work something good between more people
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Plateau
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wall of Omens
3 Lightning Rift
2 Astral Slide
2 Radiant's Judgment
3 Renewed Faith
2 Wrath of God
1 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Slice and Dice
2 Eternal Dragon
9 Plains
5 Mountain
1 Wear/Tear
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Abeyance
1 Wear/Tear
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gideon Jura
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Silence
i think you have to make a decklist like this: do a 75 card list with 1) mana 2) cycling/astral engine 3) removal and 4) wincons and 5)meta cards!, and then go with 60 main and 15 SB.
between red and white (and colorless) i think we have access to the best meta/hate cards (not all in my list above)
Again this is a VERY meta oriented deck (not only my list IMHO), the slice and dice was wonderful in the UR delver meta, right now i have to see how the meta goes and then make another decklist.
the best match up in my opinion is hard control (miracles) and very fast combo (belcher/oops all spells), all others deck we have a fightning chance and pretty good if you meta call was good.
First of all, the budget primer is absolutely great! Great decks and cool ideas!
I'm sort of in the middle of a budget player, I got some expensive cards, like Tarmogoyfs and Force of Wills, but no blue duals. That's always my dilemma...
So it's really great to see all the options of cards you could add to the decks, if you had more money.
I was wondering, if there is a good list with 4 Cephalid Illusionists and Shukos to combo out with Laboratory Maniac? Isn't that also a budget option? I would like to make the deck Esper colors with Cabal Therapy and Stoneforge Mystic. Is it possible, to construct the deck with a budget mana base?
I was thinking to play a transformational sideboard, to transform into some kind of Esper Stoneblade deck (with True-Name Nemesis).
By the way, I love Astral Slide decks, but think, they are not competitive in Legacy.
You could add a sample decklist to you Roguedeck section though. Then I would suggest a green-white-black deck with Life from the Loam and Eternal Witness (best card imo with Astral Slide). Black is needed for discard spells like Thoughtseize.
no, to play blue you need the duals, no budget replacement.
the only exception i think is miracles, since runs a lots of fetchs and basic.
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1 Angel's Grace
1 Silence
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroclasm
3 Xantid Swarm
Something like this is a decent start. You want to look at your meta and see what you are most afraid of, though, and build around that.
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4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
Do you think Cosi's Trickster deserves a place in maindeck? What about replacing Aether Vial with Chalice of the Void? What do you think about this list (based on yours):
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mishra's Factory
Mono Blue Artifacts, might try Dust to Dust and/or Disenchant. Resolving it might be a problem of course. Leonin Relic Warder also might help you. Armageddon might ruin their day.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
To be honest I have never tried this build before, but I have a friend who did. I think it can be strong, but I'm not sure which is stronger. Keep in mind that the only reason they play the trickster with the chalice is that Cavern of Souls allows you to cast him through chalice without getting countered. so, if you play this version I think you should have caverns.
@Ryadriz-
A white weenie list should be able to win those match ups with the right build and sideboard. If you posted your list I could help you out.
As far as a new deck goes, though, green is typically the best artifact hate color out there, with red and white following close behind. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Smash to Smithereens, and Revoke Existence (gets rid of wurmcoil forever) are all things that come to mind. It is also worth mentioning that Pernicious Deed has also gone down in price thanks to its conspiracy reprinting, and that card is very strong in both of those match ups.
Perhaps a g/b control deck? you mentioned you also wanted to play Cabal Therapy. What is your budget?
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With playsets of all of those it seems to me that you could easily throw together a decent u/r delver or u/r kiln fiend deck. This could be strong. Your answers to Chalice would come out of the board, and would most likely be either Smash to Smithereens or Shattering Spree (which can be replicated under the chalice).
What type of deck do you enjoy playing the most? Combo, control, aggro, midrange?
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http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1213924
@Ryadriz:
These are some of the choices you have...
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Nivmagus Elemental
Spells [30]
3 Apostle's Blessing
4 Flusterstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Misdirection
4 Ponder
3 Assault Strobe
4 Shadow Rift
6 Island
4 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Spells [30]
3 Apostle's Blessing
3 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Misdirection
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Assault Strobe
5 Island
5 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Goblin Guide
Spells [30]
4 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Misdirection
4 Ponder
4 Chain Lightning
4 Spell Pierce
6 Island
4 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Sulfur Falls
As you can see these are all pretty similar. Should give you an idea of the directions you would want to go, though. Numbers and cards can be swapped throughout these lists, really, these are just here to show you all the different cards and combinations you have access to.
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4 Steam Vents
2 Island
1 Mountain
7 Polluted Delta or Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire or Wooded Foothills
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
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Budget U/R delver with KTK fetches, Steam Vents in place of Volcanics, and a budget disruption option in place of FoW (Spell Pierce?) is still a fairly strong deck. I just didn't want anyone to think the deck with 4x Force Away was good enough to cash in a 200-person, $5000 legacy tournament. The real deck is $300 more than this list.
Edit: or what spooky said much more succinctly at the same time.
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Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Also, you say Obliterator in your Gate list but they're running Percy.
Obliterator vs Percy is a matter of preference. I think Obliterator is better, so that's who I run. It's ultimately up to you which you want to play.
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Also, changing subjects for a bit. I built the following for a weekly casual tourney, but I'm curious at how it'd fair in the Legacy meta. I thought you'd be a great one to ask.
4 Sarcomancy
4 Gravecrawler
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tombstalker
Other Spells - 22
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kaervek's Spite
14 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Engineered Plague
3 Spinning Darkness
4 Vampire Nighthawk
Cast Fluctuator, cycle everything till you get the 3 combo pieces then WIN. Sideboard just run some duress's since you can only board in 1-2 cards before making the deck too slow and a alternate win condition that can respond to any anti graveyard hate at instant speed. You can also use Pact of Negation over duress but then its not so much Super Budget. And the creatures don't really matter also, just need 29, so some of them like Cloud of Faeries could be cut for any that are like 2 cents each.
That mono black list seems pretty decent. I would make some small changes, though. Phyrexian Negator is very bad, especially because Lightning Bolt is very popular right now. He's not the power house he once was, and I would suggest replcing him entirely. Nyxathid, Ashenmoor Gouger, and Dross Harvester are decent replacements in the 3-drop slot. Phyrexian Obliterator, Plague Sliver, Desecration Demon, and Grinning Demon are all fine if you want to move up to a 4 drop slot.
Tombstalker is very good, but 4 is way too many, epseically when you are not running fetchlands. Play 2, and replace the other 2 with something else.
If you want to run Gravecrawler I think you need more zombies. Mayebe use your 2 extra tombstalker slots for Carnophage or Diregraf Ghoul.
I think you are running too much discard. Your deck needs some creature removal besides Spite. Replace 1-4 of the Inquisitions with some combination of Victim of Night and Disfigure.
@ DalekXtrminater
Fluctuator is fun, but I'm not sure if it is reliable/consistent enough, since you need the fluctuator in your opening hand. I will play around with it a bit.
@ LeviatanCL
I have been toying around with Astral Slide and Rifter. I'm not as familiar with the archetype as others, so I'm not sure if I'm doing it right, lol. I'd love to see a list. I could compare it to mine and see what I can make work.
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Spite isn't removal, there is none main deck. Spinning Darkness will probably become GftT in the board.
I want to see Tombstalker early, hence running 4 of him. With early disruption and Dark Ritual getting him out the first few turns isn't hard.
If I were to add removal I think I'd lose the Sinkholes. The idea was that between all the disruption they wouldn't get much to stick on the board though, so I wouldn't need removal.
I'm not worried about you not being able to get one out at a decent rate(thought that is a bit of an issue). I'm worried about what happens when you draw the second one and can't cast it. :/
Right now the Legacy format is one where decks can win with 1-2 mana easily. Delver of Secrets is all many decks need in order to kill you. Deathrite Shaman produces mana, getting around sinkhole, and Young Pyromancer and Stoneforge Mystic both are enormous threats, not to mention Tarmogoyf. Unless they have no lands they will be able to produce a threat.
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this is a rough version, but i think we could work something good between more people
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Plateau
4 Secluded Steppe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wall of Omens
3 Lightning Rift
2 Astral Slide
2 Radiant's Judgment
3 Renewed Faith
2 Wrath of God
1 Akroma's Vengeance
3 Slice and Dice
2 Eternal Dragon
9 Plains
5 Mountain
1 Wear/Tear
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Abeyance
1 Wear/Tear
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gideon Jura
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Silence
i think you have to make a decklist like this: do a 75 card list with 1) mana 2) cycling/astral engine 3) removal and 4) wincons and 5)meta cards!, and then go with 60 main and 15 SB.
between red and white (and colorless) i think we have access to the best meta/hate cards (not all in my list above)
Again this is a VERY meta oriented deck (not only my list IMHO), the slice and dice was wonderful in the UR delver meta, right now i have to see how the meta goes and then make another decklist.
the best match up in my opinion is hard control (miracles) and very fast combo (belcher/oops all spells), all others deck we have a fightning chance and pretty good if you meta call was good.
no, to play blue you need the duals, no budget replacement.
the only exception i think is miracles, since runs a lots of fetchs and basic.
if you can afford tarmo, why not go jund?