Thought Gorger seems like an easy way to pitch lots of cards or cycle spare lands. I'm going to try it. I still don't really see how this deck can beat fast aggro (Zoo, Goblins, Goyf Sligh, any and all black aggro...).
Everything is true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true, false, and meaningless in some sense. Repeat this 666 times and you will reach enlightenment.
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
My issue with thought gorger is that it dumps your hands (which most likely creatures which is a big portion of the deck) which might screw up your GY order and maybe drop your discards etc into the gy too. For example, compare it to beseech the queen and skeletal scrying, beseech tutor stuff out while scrying helps to fix gy order too.
EDIT: If you're looking to cycle stuff, Scroll Rack from the prior post would be better? At least you have a choice of cycling, though you'll need shuffle effects like fetches.
I'm considering the green splash, considering it offers more versatility against more MU, though we still kinda fold over to combo (though we can give it up in exchange for better MU against other archetypes).
After thinking, if we splash green/white to stop enchantments/artifacts hitting the gy why don't we make the deck more gy dependent (similar to the loam decks) in hopes we achieve better stability and speed?
I'm trying to playtest here but my playgroup consists of mostly type 2 and extended players with only a LED-less Dredge, a rogue BW Pox and me, I get my other friends to pilot my Quinn and Reanimator but most of them aren't too familiar with the deck which is an issue.
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The Eldrazi - The eldrazi, if played, will be used almost entirely as a Corpse Dance target. Of these, I believe my favorite is It That Betrays. It has a decent body and anihilator 2 (which isn't the best out there, but isn't awful), but it's the other ability which I fell for. This effect also makes Fleshbag quite effective, and can both set up a quick ramp for us (them sacrificing lands, etc.) and offer a way to steal additional threats.
The other eldrazi that may fit is Pathrazer of Ulamog. It has a smaller body than It, but is harder to block and hits one more permanent. Also, though rarely relevant, it does cost 1 less.
The non-creature eldrazi have no place in this deck. The bigger eldrazi are much harder to abuse, as they have the graveyard raping clause, and the other non-grave hating ones are substantially worse than the ones listed above.
Inquisition of Kozilek - A big card up for discussion for legacy as a whole. Is it better or worse than duress/thoughtseize? I can't answer that for sure just yet.
Pelakka Wurm - Decent body (with trample), gains you life when it hits play, draws you a card when you sacrifice it... I'm quite intrigued, and I'm certainly going to be testing this one.
Personally I feel Pathrazer (fun against decks with little removal/permanents, hard to block too), Inquistion (good for decks like zoo, hits many things, yet some stuff it doesn't hit are also an issue, see above) and Wurm (untested) stands more of a chance, but hey I haven't tested them in a very diverse meta too.
Just my thoughts.
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Hello everybody, this is my first port ni mtgsalvation. I came to this deck from mtgthesource, but the discussion here seem much prolific. Im running a budget mono black version (no chrome mox) for the last week and to be honest, Im starting to beleve that the discard spells are not working for me MD. Ive found that, while great kick ass cards, duress and hymn interfere to much with the decks core. It is true that they make wondefull openings completely slowing the opponent, but besides that they dont play well with K.Horror, bueried Alive, Tortured existance, etc. Im starting to beleve that theyll make great sideboard answers versus combo. By freeing those spaces maideck we can run a critical mass of creature measures to nuke aggro. with our recurring threats.
I played versus a RG aggro deck with MD yard hate, and i was amazed by this deck resilience, he won, not by clearing my yard twice in the same game, but because he could swarm me.
After some test games, I think we should further explore the green splash. Talking about green, why not replace Chrome Mox with Birds of Paradise? They do anything Mox does, the only drawback being summoning sickness. But then, they're no dead draw later on as they pitch to Tortured Existence.
I replaced Terastodon with Mr. Creeping Mold on a stick. He can realistically be hardcasted and does almost anyhting Terastodon does too. He's just not that big, but he doesn't give your opponent creatures either. And he stops Tarmogoyf dead just as good.
Finally, I don't think Hymn to Tourach deserves any spot here. The discard should be there mainly to stop your opponents countermagic or StP, and with a heavier green splash, BB is sometimes difficult. I went 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Duress for discard effects. Hymn is the nuts, just not in this deck.
How are the MU with fast aggro like zoo with BoP on your end of testing? As for some of us, we run Mox for early ramp, though it's still a choice as it eats a card and is a dead card later on.
As for Terastodon, it's supposed to be a game winner (at the same time blowing up the anything in the way). Acidic Slime seems to fit somewhat, but we have to compare with grips and nature's claim too.
As for thoughtseize, does it work enough for you? I'm having issues with the 2 life loss in addition to the damage i'm taking from aggro (I have no issues with hymn, I'm running a very light splash, 1 forest, 1 bayou and a couple of fetches).
Hello everybody, this is my first port ni mtgsalvation. I came to this deck from mtgthesource, but the discussion here seem much prolific. Im running a budget mono black version (no chrome mox) for the last week and to be honest, Im starting to beleve that the discard spells are not working for me MD. Ive found that, while great kick ass cards, duress and hymn interfere to much with the decks core. It is true that they make wondefull openings completely slowing the opponent, but besides that they dont play well with K.Horror, bueried Alive, Tortured existance, etc. Im starting to beleve that theyll make great sideboard answers versus combo. By freeing those spaces maideck we can run a critical mass of creature measures to nuke aggro. with our recurring threats.
I played versus a RG aggro deck with MD yard hate, and i was amazed by this deck resilience, he won, not by clearing my yard twice in the same game, but because he could swarm me.
Anywaysm this are just my thoughts.
A.
Is the RG sligh? We are trying to make it competitive here and mostly we would compare it with more commonly seen decks i.e. zoo.
However, the idea of including more removal/blockers could maybe shore up fast aggro, leaving discard for combo/control MU sounds viable.
Just my thoughts.
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After weeks, I finally got a bit more testing in: (this information also found on page 1, post 3 - Matchup analysis)
Enchantress - An absolute *****. It is one of the most complicated matchups I've played, and it was also one of the most fun ones. For this matchup, you can expect to be in for long games. Things I've learned about this matchup:
1. Getting the Mesmeric Fiend-Corpse Dance engine online can win you the game. No doubts, this is one of the best moves you have against them main deck. Early on, by grabbing their enchantresseffects or their tutors, you can really mess up their game plan.
2. Terastodon = Bomb. Even if it's only able to eat a sterling grove, they're forced to choose between taking the elephant or tutoring. It also takes care of other bothersome enchantments such as Ground Seal and City of Solitude (if only because it stops our lock).
3. Shriekmaw and Butcher - Not so great ;). Their only creature (that's worth casting) is Argothian Enchantress which has shroud, so naturally, Butcher and 'Maw are less powerful against them. These two can, however, eat Angel Tokens, so they're not completely dead, but it's highly likely that you'll have better cards in the sideboard.
4. Your best choice of removal for Enchantresses main deck is Fleshbag Marauder. If you're running him, be sure to grab one on your first Buried Alive, because it's one of your best ways to slow them down (other than violentlyrapingtheirhand.
5. Both decks are a ***** to play, so naturally, the matchup will hurt. Tough decisions will be made by both players, so it will likely take a good deal of time. Try to stay calm and make the best decisions you can. Also remember that after they draw, it's too late for them to pay their upkeep costs
TBH I haven't tested against real aggro, but every time I had a Mox I didn't really want to play it because it would have cost me a vital card in my hand. Results for the list with BoP are still pending, I'll check back in a few days to tell about it. At the moment I'm in the laboratory 12 hrs a day.... -.-
I run 3 KGrip in the SB to complement Slime, but he's tutorable, hardcastable, generates real CA and is not the magnet for StP that Terastodon is. And I like to beat down with a blob of ooze.
As I said, I haven't tested against Goblins or Zoo. But I think, against aggro you want to get Shriekmaw + Golgari Brownscale online as soon as possible, so the lifeloss should be no real problem.
One of the problems I've seen when testing against goblins is that a Turn 1 Lackey can really mess up your game plan if it's not dealt with; that's why goblins has been (and will likely continue to be) a very strong deck in legacy. Chrome Mox allows us to answer Lackey if we're on the draw by dumping a Shriekmaw or Fiend onto the field.
Brownscale can really help with the aggro matchups, but you do need to get it up fast. Versus burn and GoyfSligh, you can practically rely on 2 brownscales + Tortured Existence winning you the game.
TokoboTenkai: The deck I played against (we played like ten or so games) was a GR midrange-ish. playes Tinder wall, Orcish Lumberjack, and STE to mana ramp into bombs including Siege gang commander, Garruk, Blastoderm, among others. It wasnt full aggro, but it sported some rally fast starts.
Im preety sure he was a better player than me though.
@poppelseed: what's the list you're running for the MU with enchantress?
I'm guessing that you're running a green splash. Have you included thoughtseize in your deck too?
@Genio: Looks like a rogue deck (we rarely see ramp decks here :p), was expecting a goyf sligh or something and Tenkai will just do fine (I know it's rather long to type )
@poppelseed: what's the list you're running for the MU with enchantress?
I'm guessing that you're running a green splash. Have you included thoughtseize in your deck too?
@Genio: Looks like a rogue deck (we rarely see ramp decks here :p), was expecting a goyf sligh or something and Tenkai will just do fine (I know it's rather long to type )
Yeah, I was running a green splash. And no, I haven't gotten around to picking up 'seizes, although I did get 2x Bayou as part of a huge trade this weekend.
The more I test it, the more I have problems with Chrome Mox. It's wonderful for fast mana, but is absolutely terrible as a topdeck, which I tend to notice more and more (say, against thresh, etc.)
Undead Gladiator is an interesting piece. He does seem to perpetually block, can act as both a discard outlet to help with Corpse Dance and to pitch junk in your hand and can help set up a pseudo-draw engine, but it can be a little slow. I don't hate it so far, and it does get in the way of goyf while you dig for an answer.
To make the process a little easier, I sleeved up nearly every suggested card* and am changing the decklist almost constantly, so I decided to toy around with removing Hymn and adding another Gladiator and 2x Skeletal Scrying, but haven't been able to test yet.
Another card that I saw and was interested in but haven't been able to test yet is Undertaker. I'm leaning away from it as it is a creature, it does require tapping, and it's body is frail as sin, but possibly as a 2-of it could make a spot as a backup to Tortured Existence. It seems a little sketchy, but I think I might have to test it out.
Have you considered the utility lands(i.e. Volrath's Stronghold)? I know that wasteland is around but compared to undertaker would they be better (creature removal is much more than land ones)?
As for your list, the Puppeteer Clique (as compared to Scion) didn't make the cut anymore? I'm guessing it's his power and toughness and maybe his inability to be cycled.
For the moxen, I'm suggesting 3 instead of 4, but have yet to test it out.
EDIT: For those splashing white: Spirit Cairn might be an interesting card, it turns all discards (even TE into 1/1 spirits).
Have you considered the utility lands(i.e. Volrath's Stronghold)? I know that wasteland is around but compared to undertaker would they be better (creature removal is much more than land ones)?
As for your list, the Puppeteer Clique (as compared to Scion) didn't make the cut anymore? I'm guessing it's his power and toughness and maybe his inability to be cycled.
For the moxen, I'm suggesting 3 instead of 4, but have yet to test it out.
For those splashing white: Spirit Cairn might be an interesting card, it turns all discards (even TE into 1/1 spirits).
Clique's still in the list; I only listed 59 cards. Fixing that now.
As for stronghold and phyrexian tower, I just need to get ahold of them. As soon as I do, they're getting sleeved up and put right in the testing bin.
Clique's still in the list; I only listed 59 cards. Fixing that now.
As for stronghold and phyrexian tower, I just need to get ahold of them. As soon as I do, they're getting sleeved up and put right in the testing bin.
Oh yea, I realised it when I was testing your list with modifications of my own, you have 1x faceless butcher and 2x faceless butcher in your list. I'm assuming one of them is a mesmeric fiend?
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Oh yea, I realised it when I was testing your list with modifications of my own, you have 1x faceless butcher and 2x faceless butcher in your list. I'm assuming one of them is a mesmeric fiend?
i came across this thread and was tutoring for some cards to replace for my (budget/multiplayer) version.
i instantly came across an infest on a stick that can be tutored/reanimated at instant speed and can sac itself. probably a good sideboard card.
i just looked for somthing like him because my playgroup loves token
decks...
I've tested Necroplasm in this situation. It can wipe a field really quickly. The problem I see with Gangrenous Zombies is that it requires T to activate. So alone, it still takes a full turn to get online.
Been testing your list so far on MWS (which screws my draws to no end, I'm not sure why).
Tested some cards on your testing bin and this is what I feel.
Conquering Manticore - I replaced puppeteer clique slot, I kinda of find it slightly worse than a clique, as I tend to blow up goyfs then using clique to steal them later in the game to beat ftw. Necroplasm - He blows up creatures ok, especially when you hymn + duress his hand away, dredges to come back (although sometimes your TE and stuff lands in the gy). He blocks ok too (thank god goyf doesn't have trample). Undead Gladiator - One of in the deck feels kinda ok, though it's terribly slow, I tried 2 and they are annoying in multiples, my issue with him is that although he does help the draw and blocks continously but he eats loads of mana to do that. Doesn't feel good for me. Scion of Darkness - Cycling is nice but 3 mana kinda too much and it gets killed before it hits. Undertaker - It gets burnt/kill everytime I got it out, so never really got a chance to tap it. Phyrexian Market - I ran it with stronghold replacing a swamp, but on MWS I never got it in my hand with stronghold, so I can't say more, though it really helps when I can't draw a feeder however, it's ability can be only used once though. Volrath's Stronghold - I ran it replacing a Mox (I also replaced a swamp with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), it helps to recur creatures like a pseudo TE.
Regarding these(untested):- Corpse Connoisseur - I don't know what do I replace for this, and the cmc of the card feels rather not useful. Skeletal Scrying - What do you sub in these for? I'm kinda thinking 2 skeletal/2 beseech or 2 skeletal/1 beseech splits.
I tried running 3 Mox but had draws on MWS where I got quite a bit of them or none of them at all, so can't tell for now.
Decks tested against (2 games each): BW Pox (discard variant, not the Land D one), Dragon Stompy and Goyf Sligh.
Some comments about the games.
BW Pox - Fared very badly as the discard disruption with pox (blowing up my lands) is screwed me pretty bad and all my removal were useless. Never managed to win a match.
Dragon Stompy - under 3sphere I survive (duh) but chalice for 1 hinders quite abit. Winnable but dependent whether you get removal out much or not. Removal + Clique(corpse dancing) + Sac outlet wins the game. Conquering Manticore works great here.
Goyf Sligh - the match just sucks, couldn't keep up at all.
Please do note that I could be playing the deck rather poorly with MWS screwing my draws.
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Been testing your list so far on MWS (which screws my draws to no end, I'm not sure why).
Tested some cards on your testing bin and this is what I feel.
Conquering Manticore - I replaced puppeteer clique slot, I kinda of find it slightly worse than a clique, as I tend to blow up goyfs then using clique to steal them later in the game to beat ftw. Necroplasm - He blows up creatures ok, especially when you hymn + duress his hand away, dredges to come back (although sometimes your TE and stuff lands in the gy). He blocks ok too (thank god goyf doesn't have trample). Undead Gladiator - One of in the deck feels kinda ok, though it's terribly slow, I tried 2 and they are annoying in multiples, my issue with him is that although he does help the draw and blocks continously but he eats loads of mana to do that. Doesn't feel good for me. Scion of Darkness - Cycling is nice but 3 mana kinda too much and it gets killed before it hits. Undertaker - It gets burnt/kill everytime I got it out, so never really got a chance to tap it. Phyrexian Market - I ran it with stronghold replacing a swamp, but on MWS I never got it in my hand with stronghold, so I can't say more, though it really helps when I can't draw a feeder however, it's ability can be only used once though. Volrath's Stronghold - I ran it replacing a Mox (I also replaced a swamp with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), it helps to recur creatures like a pseudo TE.
Regarding these(untested):- Corpse Connoisseur - I don't know what do I replace for this, and the cmc of the card feels rather not useful. Skeletal Scrying - What do you sub in these for? I'm kinda thinking 2 skeletal/2 beseech or 2 skeletal/1 beseech splits.
I tried running 3 Mox but had draws on MWS where I got quite a bit of them or none of them at all, so can't tell for now.
Decks tested against (2 games each): BW Pox (discard variant, not the Land D one), Dragon Stompy and Goyf Sligh.
Some comments about the games.
BW Pox - Fared very badly as the discard disruption with pox (blowing up my lands) is screwed me pretty bad and all my removal were useless. Never managed to win a match.
Dragon Stompy - under 3sphere I survive (duh) but chalice for 1 hinders quite abit. Winnable but dependent whether you get removal out much or not. Removal + Clique(corpse dancing) + Sac outlet wins the game. Conquering Manticore works great here.
Goyf Sligh - the match just sucks, couldn't keep up at all.
Please do note that I could be playing the deck rather poorly with MWS screwing my draws.
I actually haven't tested a handful of the cards in my test pile (Manticore, Undertaker, the lands and Corpse Connoisseur), and I'm quite ready to remove Scion from the pile; Clique is significantly better in most instances. There are also cards that I have yet to obtain for the pile (Acidic Slime, It That Betrays) and therefore have not listed.
Right now, Necroplasm is slowly working its way into my sideboard, and I'm tempted to remove the second Gladiator for a Connoisseur. As for Skeletal Scrying, I'm not sure how I like it just yet; it seems a bit slow and mana-intensive, and it requires food from your grave (which may or may not be a problem). I will, however, continue to test it until I'm sure whether or not it fits.
Yeah, mws does have a screwy shuffler, which is part of the reason I refuse to test this deck on it.
I too have tested against pox (Bg) and it's a rough matchup. G1, your removal is virtually dead (shriekmaw hits nothing). G2-3, if you don't have an out to Leyline, you're in for a rough game. I think I might have been able to scrape together a 20-30% win rate there, but it was rough.
I've been trying to test against Tempo Thresh, but the only player who has it built in my area is... well, me. I've tried loaning it for testing purposes, (in which it came up about even pre-board, perhaps slightly unfavorable), but it should be put into account that this individual is literally picking up the deck for the first time. I hope to get more extensive testing with someone more experienced with the deck.
In a crude attempt to assist the Zoo/Burn/GoyfSligh matchups, I am running 2x Golgari Brownscale, and I will say that seeing just 1 helps immensely. 2 life can really slow them down.
So, I was looking at trade binders today and I saw a card that I decided was way better than Angel of Despair for the white splash and that card is Archon of Justice. We are going to be sacrificing anyway so why not be able to remove instead of destroy? Sure we loose one power and toughness but we also can hard cast this regularly.
So, I was looking at trade binders today and I saw a card that I decided was way better than Angel of Despair for the white splash and that card is Archon of Justice. We are going to be sacrificing anyway so why not be able to remove instead of destroy? Sure we loose one power and toughness but we also can hard cast this regularly.
I think this warrants testing, though angel of despair have been long removed as the permanents we need gone are usually artifacts or enchantments (i.e. leyline or crypt) where disenchant, krosan grips work better.
As for stuff like elspeth could be blown away by terastodon(or discarded) then beating for the win.
I prefer stuff that triggers coming into play as we have an issue of stuff being PtE or StP away =(
Just my thoughts.
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So, I was looking at trade binders today and I saw a card that I decided was way better than Angel of Despair for the white splash and that card is Archon of Justice. We are going to be sacrificing anyway so why not be able to remove instead of destroy? Sure we loose one power and toughness but we also can hard cast this regularly.
Archon cant kill lyline. Acidic Slime is probably the best card for this slot. Kills anything relevant, hardcastable, and sticks around to block like a beast.
Archon cant kill lyline. Acidic Slime is probably the best card for this slot. Kills anything relevant, hardcastable, and sticks around to block like a beast.
I think he was referring to the white splash, as archon has the same cmc as slime. But the issue is you have to kill the archon to make anything disappear.
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What about something like Mindslicer?
In some sense. The only good fnord is a dead fnord.
EDIT: If you're looking to cycle stuff, Scroll Rack from the prior post would be better? At least you have a choice of cycling, though you'll need shuffle effects like fetches.
I'm considering the green splash, considering it offers more versatility against more MU, though we still kinda fold over to combo (though we can give it up in exchange for better MU against other archetypes).
After thinking, if we splash green/white to stop enchantments/artifacts hitting the gy why don't we make the deck more gy dependent (similar to the loam decks) in hopes we achieve better stability and speed?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
"The world is an endless abyss and tomorrow
draws you deeper into the darkness."
We are already considering a white or green splash to deal with GY hate, so might be playable though the randomness might be an issue here.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
It is good to note that this deck has bad MU with fast aggro decks.
As for the list right, we are now considering a color splash, especially green or white due to gy hate issues.
poppeleseed's idea of a splash list are here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5216958&postcount=62
I'm trying to playtest here but my playgroup consists of mostly type 2 and extended players with only a LED-less Dredge, a rogue BW Pox and me, I get my other friends to pilot my Quinn and Reanimator but most of them aren't too familiar with the deck which is an issue.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
We did, but you realised that sometimes our combo stretched over turns.
If we fail to reanimate it, whole nicely set gy would go back into the library (might be nice against mill), but still kinda too situational for use.
The other eldrazi cards from that set are at least considered by poppeleseed:
Personally I feel Pathrazer (fun against decks with little removal/permanents, hard to block too), Inquistion (good for decks like zoo, hits many things, yet some stuff it doesn't hit are also an issue, see above) and Wurm (untested) stands more of a chance, but hey I haven't tested them in a very diverse meta too.
Just my thoughts.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Keep gaining life and drawing cards, and 7 life negates a bolt and fireblast.....thats good vs burn.
Would Gifts ungiven make this deck better?
B/g/u?
Thanks Darth Monkey
I played versus a RG aggro deck with MD yard hate, and i was amazed by this deck resilience, he won, not by clearing my yard twice in the same game, but because he could swarm me.
Anywaysm this are just my thoughts.
A.
How are the MU with fast aggro like zoo with BoP on your end of testing? As for some of us, we run Mox for early ramp, though it's still a choice as it eats a card and is a dead card later on.
As for Terastodon, it's supposed to be a game winner (at the same time blowing up the anything in the way). Acidic Slime seems to fit somewhat, but we have to compare with grips and nature's claim too.
As for thoughtseize, does it work enough for you? I'm having issues with the 2 life loss in addition to the damage i'm taking from aggro (I have no issues with hymn, I'm running a very light splash, 1 forest, 1 bayou and a couple of fetches).
Is the RG sligh? We are trying to make it competitive here and mostly we would compare it with more commonly seen decks i.e. zoo.
However, the idea of including more removal/blockers could maybe shore up fast aggro, leaving discard for combo/control MU sounds viable.
Just my thoughts.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Enchantress - An absolute *****. It is one of the most complicated matchups I've played, and it was also one of the most fun ones. For this matchup, you can expect to be in for long games. Things I've learned about this matchup:
1. Getting the Mesmeric Fiend-Corpse Dance engine online can win you the game. No doubts, this is one of the best moves you have against them main deck. Early on, by grabbing their enchantress effects or their tutors, you can really mess up their game plan.
2. Terastodon = Bomb. Even if it's only able to eat a sterling grove, they're forced to choose between taking the elephant or tutoring. It also takes care of other bothersome enchantments such as Ground Seal and City of Solitude (if only because it stops our lock).
3. Shriekmaw and Butcher - Not so great ;). Their only creature (that's worth casting) is Argothian Enchantress which has shroud, so naturally, Butcher and 'Maw are less powerful against them. These two can, however, eat Angel Tokens, so they're not completely dead, but it's highly likely that you'll have better cards in the sideboard.
4. Your best choice of removal for Enchantresses main deck is Fleshbag Marauder. If you're running him, be sure to grab one on your first Buried Alive, because it's one of your best ways to slow them down (other than violently raping their hand.
5. Both decks are a ***** to play, so naturally, the matchup will hurt. Tough decisions will be made by both players, so it will likely take a good deal of time. Try to stay calm and make the best decisions you can. Also remember that after they draw, it's too late for them to pay their upkeep costs
One of the problems I've seen when testing against goblins is that a Turn 1 Lackey can really mess up your game plan if it's not dealt with; that's why goblins has been (and will likely continue to be) a very strong deck in legacy. Chrome Mox allows us to answer Lackey if we're on the draw by dumping a Shriekmaw or Fiend onto the field.
Brownscale can really help with the aggro matchups, but you do need to get it up fast. Versus burn and GoyfSligh, you can practically rely on 2 brownscales + Tortured Existence winning you the game.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Im preety sure he was a better player than me though.
A.
I'm guessing that you're running a green splash. Have you included thoughtseize in your deck too?
@Genio: Looks like a rogue deck (we rarely see ramp decks here :p), was expecting a goyf sligh or something and Tenkai will just do fine (I know it's rather long to type )
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Yeah, I was running a green splash. And no, I haven't gotten around to picking up 'seizes, although I did get 2x Bayou as part of a huge trade this weekend.
4x Carrion Feeder
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Faceless Butcher
3x Shriekmaw
2x Tombstalker
3x Krovikan Horror
2x Golgari Brownscale
1x Terastodon
1x Puppeteer Clique
1x Undead Gladiator
2x Mesmeric Fiend
2x Corpse Dance
3x Buried Alive
3x Duress
4x Tortured Existence
2x Beseech the Queen
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Chrome Mox
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Bayou
1x Forest
11x Swamp
Undead Gladiator is an interesting piece. He does seem to perpetually block, can act as both a discard outlet to help with Corpse Dance and to pitch junk in your hand and can help set up a pseudo-draw engine, but it can be a little slow. I don't hate it so far, and it does get in the way of goyf while you dig for an answer.
To make the process a little easier, I sleeved up nearly every suggested card* and am changing the decklist almost constantly, so I decided to toy around with removing Hymn and adding another Gladiator and 2x Skeletal Scrying, but haven't been able to test yet.
Another card that I saw and was interested in but haven't been able to test yet is Undertaker. I'm leaning away from it as it is a creature, it does require tapping, and it's body is frail as sin, but possibly as a 2-of it could make a spot as a backup to Tortured Existence. It seems a little sketchy, but I think I might have to test it out.
*Cards in my testing pool:
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
As for your list, the Puppeteer Clique (as compared to Scion) didn't make the cut anymore? I'm guessing it's his power and toughness and maybe his inability to be cycled.
For the moxen, I'm suggesting 3 instead of 4, but have yet to test it out.
EDIT: For those splashing white: Spirit Cairn might be an interesting card, it turns all discards (even TE into 1/1 spirits).
Anyone tried Genesis?
This article might be interesting though (just found it) http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/as70
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Clique's still in the list; I only listed 59 cards. Fixing that now.
As for stronghold and phyrexian tower, I just need to get ahold of them. As soon as I do, they're getting sleeved up and put right in the testing bin.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Oh yea, I realised it when I was testing your list with modifications of my own, you have 1x faceless butcher and 2x faceless butcher in your list. I'm assuming one of them is a mesmeric fiend?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Yup, that was supposed to be fiend. Fixed
I've tested Necroplasm in this situation. It can wipe a field really quickly. The problem I see with Gangrenous Zombies is that it requires T to activate. So alone, it still takes a full turn to get online.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
The think I love about necroplasm is that it wipes the small guys out, but it also keeps coming back, even without Tortured Existence/Corpse Dance.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Since you're playtesting stinkweed imp, what do you think about using dredge + regrowth/reclaim/eternal witness?
Been testing your list so far on MWS (which screws my draws to no end, I'm not sure why).
Tested some cards on your testing bin and this is what I feel.
Conquering Manticore - I replaced puppeteer clique slot, I kinda of find it slightly worse than a clique, as I tend to blow up goyfs then using clique to steal them later in the game to beat ftw.
Necroplasm - He blows up creatures ok, especially when you hymn + duress his hand away, dredges to come back (although sometimes your TE and stuff lands in the gy). He blocks ok too (thank god goyf doesn't have trample).
Undead Gladiator - One of in the deck feels kinda ok, though it's terribly slow, I tried 2 and they are annoying in multiples, my issue with him is that although he does help the draw and blocks continously but he eats loads of mana to do that. Doesn't feel good for me.
Scion of Darkness - Cycling is nice but 3 mana kinda too much and it gets killed before it hits.
Undertaker - It gets burnt/kill everytime I got it out, so never really got a chance to tap it.
Phyrexian Market - I ran it with stronghold replacing a swamp, but on MWS I never got it in my hand with stronghold, so I can't say more, though it really helps when I can't draw a feeder however, it's ability can be only used once though.
Volrath's Stronghold - I ran it replacing a Mox (I also replaced a swamp with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth), it helps to recur creatures like a pseudo TE.
Regarding these(untested):-
Corpse Connoisseur - I don't know what do I replace for this, and the cmc of the card feels rather not useful.
Skeletal Scrying - What do you sub in these for? I'm kinda thinking 2 skeletal/2 beseech or 2 skeletal/1 beseech splits.
I tried running 3 Mox but had draws on MWS where I got quite a bit of them or none of them at all, so can't tell for now.
Decks tested against (2 games each): BW Pox (discard variant, not the Land D one), Dragon Stompy and Goyf Sligh.
Some comments about the games.
BW Pox - Fared very badly as the discard disruption with pox (blowing up my lands) is screwed me pretty bad and all my removal were useless. Never managed to win a match.
Dragon Stompy - under 3sphere I survive (duh) but chalice for 1 hinders quite abit. Winnable but dependent whether you get removal out much or not. Removal + Clique(corpse dancing) + Sac outlet wins the game. Conquering Manticore works great here.
Goyf Sligh - the match just sucks, couldn't keep up at all.
Please do note that I could be playing the deck rather poorly with MWS screwing my draws.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I actually haven't tested a handful of the cards in my test pile (Manticore, Undertaker, the lands and Corpse Connoisseur), and I'm quite ready to remove Scion from the pile; Clique is significantly better in most instances. There are also cards that I have yet to obtain for the pile (Acidic Slime, It That Betrays) and therefore have not listed.
Right now, Necroplasm is slowly working its way into my sideboard, and I'm tempted to remove the second Gladiator for a Connoisseur. As for Skeletal Scrying, I'm not sure how I like it just yet; it seems a bit slow and mana-intensive, and it requires food from your grave (which may or may not be a problem). I will, however, continue to test it until I'm sure whether or not it fits.
Yeah, mws does have a screwy shuffler, which is part of the reason I refuse to test this deck on it.
I too have tested against pox (Bg) and it's a rough matchup. G1, your removal is virtually dead (shriekmaw hits nothing). G2-3, if you don't have an out to Leyline, you're in for a rough game. I think I might have been able to scrape together a 20-30% win rate there, but it was rough.
I've been trying to test against Tempo Thresh, but the only player who has it built in my area is... well, me. I've tried loaning it for testing purposes, (in which it came up about even pre-board, perhaps slightly unfavorable), but it should be put into account that this individual is literally picking up the deck for the first time. I hope to get more extensive testing with someone more experienced with the deck.
In a crude attempt to assist the Zoo/Burn/GoyfSligh matchups, I am running 2x Golgari Brownscale, and I will say that seeing just 1 helps immensely. 2 life can really slow them down.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
I think this warrants testing, though angel of despair have been long removed as the permanents we need gone are usually artifacts or enchantments (i.e. leyline or crypt) where disenchant, krosan grips work better.
As for stuff like elspeth could be blown away by terastodon(or discarded) then beating for the win.
I prefer stuff that triggers coming into play as we have an issue of stuff being PtE or StP away =(
Just my thoughts.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Archon cant kill lyline. Acidic Slime is probably the best card for this slot. Kills anything relevant, hardcastable, and sticks around to block like a beast.
Thanks Darth Monkey
I think he was referring to the white splash, as archon has the same cmc as slime. But the issue is you have to kill the archon to make anything disappear.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Thanks Darth Monkey