NOTE:
This primer is incredibly dated. More than anything, it should be treated as a brief history of the deck. Updated lists can be found in later posts, thanks to Pinguster, whose continued work on the deck helped pull it (the original list) out of the trash heap.
To the mods: The images posted are hosted on magiccards.info. This does not violate the image leeching rules for the forums.
Thank you.
Named after the ‘enters the battlefield’/’leaves the battlefield’ interaction seen on the Torment Nightmare Horrors, The Nightmare Effect was first piloted by Steve Hanson (Minnesota) in the fall of 2007 after the release of Lorwyn. This grave-based control deck showed much promise, but shortly after its first tournament, the playgroup fell apart and the players spread out. Recently, I decided to try to revive the old deck, and with a little fine tuning, was able to get positive results in local tournaments.
The Nightmare Effect relies heavily on graveyard order, and can be a bit of a mind☺☺☺☺ to run at time. The deck aims to generate card advantage via Krovikan Horror + Tortured Existence, however, many other synergies are present.
This is the official primer for this deck. As tournament results come up, they will be posted in this thread. This thread is intended for discussion on The Nightmare Effect, both for the mono-black builds listed as of 3/31/2010 and splash builds with potential decklists added at a later date. Suggestions are more than welcome. If you notice tags that don't work or typos, please PM me rather than putting it in a post here.
*****Notice*****
When I refer to “The Nightmare Effect” (in caps), I’m referring to the deck. When I refer to “the nightmare effect” (all lower case), I’m referring to the act of triggering a Nightmare Horror’s ‘leaves the battlefield’ ability before the ‘enters the battlefield’ ability resolves.
I. Why Play The Nightmare Effect?
II. Card Choices
III. Considered Cards
IV. Sideboard Suggestions
V. Sample Decklists
VI. Interactions and Strategy
VII. Sample Matchup Analysis
Section I – Why Play The Nightmare Effect?
First of all, I will strongly suggest that you do not attempt to pilot The Nightmare Effect while under the influence of alcohol or hung over. This deck can take some thinking, and when graveyard order matters significantly, you can’t afford to make simple mistakes like accidentally transposing two cards off Buried Alive.
The Nightmare Effect is a fun deck to pilot. It does take some thinking to work, but it can pay off. If you’re looking for something that requires play skill, is easy to learn but a pain to master, this is the deck for you.
The Nightmare Effect excels against slower aggro decks, such as Aggro Loam. This can also hold it's own against most combo decks, and destroys Jank.
The other upside to playing The Nightmare Effect is the cost. Depending on the build, you can complete the main deck for about $30 US. The more expensive (Mono-black) builds reach up to just above $100. This is significantly less expensive than any decks in the upper tier, and the ‘budget’ build can’t be matched anywhere. Splash builds will (obviously) increase the price, depending on the color splashed and the degree of said splash.
Section II – Card Choices
Here I’ll be running through a list of cards currently being run in The Nightmare Effect for different builds, and offering explanations for each.
Tortured Existence – This card makes so many plays of this deck so much more dangerous. In conjunction with Krovikan Horror, the card advantage generated from this 1 cc enchantment becomes ridiculous.
Krovikan Horror – I’d hate to say that this is the card that makes the CA engine work, but it’s true. Even if it’s just chump blocking, he always seems to find a purpose. His activated ability is also a vital part of the deck, as it is another enabler for the nightmare effect. Because no other creature has an ability similar enough to this, Krovikan Horror is very difficult to replace. Because Krovikan Horror relies so heavily on graveyard order, Tortured Existence makes it significantly better. Krovikan Horror also makes threats such as Moat less game ending for us. **Notice** Krovikan Horror’s triggered ability checks at the end of *each* turn. This allows for tricks, especially post board (with Faerie Macabre, for example)
Mesmeric Fiend – One of the nightmares. With a way to sacrifice it when it enters the battlefield, we have an opportunity to permanently strip a card from your opponent’s hand. Without one, we still have a way to temporarily keep an opponent off said card, which can be seemingly permanent in certain matchups (certain combo decks, for example).
Faceless Butcher – The other nightmare. Originally run as a 4-of, because of the high casting cost, was cut down to 2-of in the next build (and further cut to 1 later on). His ability is very powerful, especially when using the nightmare effect, but the casting cost is very prohibitive. The other issue here is that without a target on your opponent’s side, you are stuck eating one of your own creatures. Butcher does a great job of dealing with tokens (Marit Lage), and with using the nightmare effect, can absolutely crush slower aggro.
Shriekmaw – The card that pushed the deck up a notch. For 2, we’ve got a terror. Alone, that’s not spectacular, however, because of how evoke works, we’re allowed to respond to the sacrifice trigger once it enters the battlefield. This isn’t necessary to get the full effect from ‘Maw, but certainly helps. While he’s got a small butt, the fact that he’s got fear is also incredibly useful.
Corpse Dance – By itself, you can grab a creature or two safely. Alongside Tortured Existence and Buried Alive (mentioned below), you are able to be much more selective. Access to multiple Sac outlets offers much more consistency and allows for repeated reanimations. Another thing to remember is that Corpse Dance *does not* target, so graveyard removal, while it can be a painful, can be played around.
Buried Alive – Buried Alive allows for more consistency in the deck. Being able to grab 3 creatures from your deck can be useful, but alongside with Tortured Existence, you can generate massive card advantage.
Carrion Feeder – While building the deck, I realized that Krovikan Horror alone wouldn’t make for the consistency needed to use the nightmare effect or corpse dance effectively (or to their fullest potential). Carrion Feeder fits several characteristics: It comes down early, it’s a creature and it allows you to sacrifice your creatures for free. The drawback (the inability to block) can show through in the aggro matchups, but versus combo and control is fairly irrelevant.
Viscera Seer - Another 1cc sac-outlet. Rather than pushing for heavier aggression like Carrion Feeder, Seer pushes for hand sculpting.
Tombstalker – Suggested to me by a random on MWS who’s name eludes me, Tombstalker makes for an excellent addition to the deck. In a deck so reliant on graveyard order, the delve mechanic is amazing; you now have the ability to remove pesky sorceries and instants that are dividing your Krovikan Horrors and remove the weaker creatures to make the most of your Corpse Dance. Plus the fact that it’s a 5/5 flyer isn’t too shabby.
Hymn to Tourach – More disruption, basically there to help accentuate The Nightmare Effect’s control qualities.
Fleshbag Marauder – Currently being played alongside Faceless Butcher. Added to the deck once Reanimator made a showing packing Inkwell Leviathan, but does amazingly well against anything with pro-black or shroud. Marauder is there to compliment Faceless Butcher, not replace him. For those who fear Progenitus, this baby’s your answer.
Gatekeeper of Malakir - Edict on a stick. Pros - Doesn't force a sacrifice out of you, 2/2 body is less frail than Fleshbag, can be cast for 2. Cons - Doesn't trigger off Corpse Dance, CMC 2 (yes, that can be relevant), needs a sacrifice outlet to recur.
Beseech the Queen – I’ve been testing this as a 1-of, a silver bullet type tutor. I personally find the versatility of the card to be quite appealing, although it could be replaced based on metagame needs or personal preferences.
Twisted Abomination – Currently being played in a (more) budget build, this fella’ covers deck thinning, ability to make your land drops, and late game, makes for a decent body. He also does a wonderful job alongside Tortured Existence as well as Krovikan Horror.
Terastodon – Being played as a 1-of for the sole use of coming back to rape their field with Corpse Dance. Every time I’ve had this guy hit the field, I’ve won the game. Playing Terastodon offers us opportunities to deal with cards that we otherwise would have almost no chance to deal with (Artifacts, Enchantments, Planeswalkers), as well as offering us an opportunity to get rid of excess lands, moxen, etc. for creatures.
Scion of Darkness – The Scion is currently my test slot. Originally put in because of Reanimator, can help significantly in the late game of many matchups. This card also does a wonder against jank. Cycling can randomly help, although the only times I’ve used it more than one time during a game was once I had them locked down and I was looking for a win condition.
Spore Frog - Thanks go out to Shyo for bringing this guy up, Spore Frog is a wonderful addition, and can stall like a champ against aggro. Watch out for instant speed removal, however, as that can force you to break him on your own turn. Use Frog as a stall tactic, not as a hard lock.
Chrome Mox – Replaced by Twisted Abomination in the budget build, Chrome Mox offers a more explosive first few turns. Unlike Abomination, however, it becomes a dead draw during the late game.
Swamp – The land portion of the manabase was restricted to basics for a number of reasons:
· Wasteland/ Back to Basics – Losing lands hurts. Later in the game, you’d like to have 5+mana/turn. Even early on, being stuck on 1-2 lands sucks.
· Blood Moon – As mentioned, the deck can be mana hungry. As it turns out, it’s more specifically *black* mana hungry. Activating your Tortured Existence multiple times on a turn, playing/replaying Shriekmaw all costs black mana; if you’re stuck with 3 Mountains, many of your activations become a lot harder to run.
· Stifle – As of right now (in a mono-black build), running fetchlands does nothing besides open you up to Stifle and ☺☺☺☺ with your graveyard order. One of the last things you need is a fetchland stuck on top of your Horror.
Section III – Considered Cards
Simple enough: A section of cards that I’ve run in the past and have been able to find better replacements for or prove that they’re unneeded. Also for cards that will likely be suggested, so I’ll be saving you the time. Before suggesting other cards, check here first.
Dark Ritual / Cabal Ritual – While a quick boost can be useful, the ability to produce mana consistently is significantly more useful. Late game, this card is more dead than Chrome Mox, where mox can at least be eaten by Terastodon.
Street Wraith – Originally, I had attempted to use Street Wraith + Tortured Existence to generate some small card advantage. 2 life adds up really quickly. Its body is decent, but there definitely better options.
Entomb – With a price tag in the $30 range, it certainly doesn’t help on a significant level. The issue isn’t with the tutor, but more with the graveyard order thing. The significance of Buried Alive as opposed to Entomb is the sheer advantage you can make with Tortured Existence. With Entomb, you can’t effectively grab Krovikan Horror, which is a huge downside.
Soul Scourge / Laquatus’s Champion – These just don’t work. Due to the wording, the nightmare effect has no true effect here.
Hypnox – Would have been wonderful, but requires it to be cast from your hand. No such luck here.
Phyrexian Arena – I was looking for a way to draw cards. Didn’t particularly like this one. While it does a good job of drawing you cards, it does have the issue of killing you. For the longer games (which does happen quite frequently), this can be fairly detrimental.
Angel of Despair – I looked at her and thought to myself, “What does she do that I can’t already to?” The answer is simple: Nothing. Terastodon is strictly better for removing pesky permanents, and you already keep creatures in check fairly well through Shriekmaw and Butcher/Marauder.
Petradon – See Angel of Despair. The problem is that, unless your opponent is using/relying on Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam, this card is strictly worse than Terastodon.
Section IV –Sideboard Suggestions
Faerie Macabre – Easily recurred grave hate, especially for the Reanimator matchup, but also works quite well against dredge. The surprise factor can be immense, and Tortured Existence can make things rough for the opposing grave-dependent deck.
Pithing Needle – Two of the most popular forms of graveyard hate are easily answered by needle.
Extirpate – I felt that having another form of grave hate could be beneficial. This also can be used against combo, although other disruption in the main can do wonders as well.
Infest – Obviously here to help with the swarms. The Nightmare Effect struggles with fast aggro (Zoo, goblins, elves). This seems to be the best answer; against goblins, keeping them off their chieftains and nailing them with an Infest can slow them down enough for you to stabilize.
Faceless Butcher – Right now, I’ve been running two of these guys in the board. This guy has a tendency to come in during matchups like Dark Depths combo, as well as against Reanimator. Against slower aggro (aggro loam, for example), this guy can be a beast.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer – You will rarely have zero cards in your hand. In fact, as the game goes on, you’re likely to have an increasing number of cards in your hand. This is a creature answer (therefore, tutorable via Buried Alive) to faster aggro decks, especially those utilizing swarms rather than a few bigger guys. I’d recommend using him as a 1-of alongside infest.
Havoc Demon – More chaotic than Kagemaro, Havoc Demon can be used *if* you’re prepared to rebuild. Not that rebuilding is unreasonable for this deck. When the Demon (or Kagemaro, for that matter) goes off, be sure to order your graveyard right; Krovikan Horror needs something on top of it to help spark the rebuilding.
Golgari Brownscale – Suggested to me by Dissolution, this card allows you to survive much longer against burn and friends. Having access to two allows each black mana to turn into 2 life.
Section IV.5 – Splash Sideboarding
Obviously, if you plan on running a splash, you’re able to run different sideboard tech. Here’s a list of the more desirable suggestions for sideboarding for a splash.
Green
· Krosan Grip and/or Nature’s Claim – Running a splash allows you to deal with horrible weaknesses that you weren’t able to deal with as easily in the mono-black build. Enchantment-based graveyard hate (Wheel of Sun and Moon, Leyline of the Void and to a lesser extent, Planar Void) is one of those. Green offers K-grip, which also easily handles other threats in the format. Nature’s Claim can also be used, and its usefulness depends on the matchup. Obviously if you’re playing in a Thresh/Landstill meta, Grip is the call. If you need something faster (say, against MBA), Claim might be the right call.
· Tranquil Domain – I’ve always had a bit of a hardon for this card, ever since goblins was splashing green to live through Engineered Plague. If you’re seeing enchantress, this might not be a terrible call. Reverent Silence can also be used here.
· Indrik Stomphowler, Acidic Slime and family – Green’s probably got the best creatures for their CIP abilities. The Slime offers land destruction without giving away creatures, although it’s far less aggressive.
White
· Disenchant and similar effects – see Krosan Grip above.
· Circle of Protection: Red/ Aegis of Honor – If you’re struggling with zoo, this might be the answer. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to test the splash yet, but from experience, The Nightmare Effect struggles with Burn and Sligh decks. If you’re seeing plenty of these archetypes in your meta, it might be suggested that you try one of these.
· Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law – Technically can be run versus combo, particularly Storm (duh) and Enchantress. This only should be done if the current disruption suite (of 9-12 cards) that you’re running is still lacking.
· Pyroclasm/ Volcanic Fallout - To help with goblins and merfolk, and zoo (to a lesser extent). Fallout can be impressive, especially if you’re counting on counter-top or merfolk to make a strong showing. Instant speed can also help significantly with a Zombie Swarm.
· Petradon – This could also be played in the main, but it’s just a nice way to sneak some more control in. Using the nightmare effect with him can make for some upset opponents, however, once their lands are gone, you *will* have to target your own stuff when it enters.
Blue
I refuse to make suggestions for a blue splash. Attempting a blue splash will likely change a significant portion of the deck and therefore lose good chunks of what makes the deck perform the way it does, and I will be no part of it.
Here I’ll cover the evolution of the deck as it progressed from its beginning to the build I’m currently running. Recommendations for manabase changes for splash builds will also be covered here.
The first version of the deck relied much more heavily on the nightmares. Butcher and Fiend were both being run as 4-ofs, and Shriekmaw was also featured as a 4. This build is definitely a meta deck, hoping to prey on Aggro-Loam and Reanimator. Tortured Existence offers resistance to opposing Reanimates, while making Exhume dangerous for them to cast, and Aggro-Loam can be dealt with by removing threats their threats. Nearly all of their threats can be dealt with via Shriekmaw, and Chalice of the Void can be played around fairly well.
However, this build did struggle. The deck relied fairly heavily on higher casting cost creatures and lacked the disruption to allow for a longer game, where this deck shines. Street Wraith, where it was originally run to generate a bit more card advantage/deck thinning, but the 2 life added up really quickly, and you could rarely afford to use it more than twice.
Changes to this build weren’t huge; however they did make a world of difference. Tombstalker allows you to effectively re-order the graveyard, making Krovikan Horror tricks significantly easier (removing sorceries allows you to grab back Horror without having to go through Tortured Existence). Hymn to Tourach allows for additional disruption which, as mentioned above, is needed to move the game away from the earlier parts, allowing an opportunity to get engines online. Faceless butcher was reduced to a 2-of, mostly due to its inhibitive casting cost. Lastly, I dropped one Corpse Dance. It’s only really at its full potential later in the game, or after the 4th turn or so, therefore, it’s less vital that you see it in your opening hand.
The latest version became slightly toolbox-ish. Things like Terastodon found a place fairly quickly once I had my first matchup against Enchantress. While looking into black, there was (obviously) zero answers to enchantments, and no creature-based ways to destroy artifacts. This prompted me move some toolbox guys into the deck. Scion of Darkness is the test slot right now, but seems to hold its own, especially versus jank. Beseech the Queen acts as Tortured Existence #5, Corpse Dance#4 and Buried Alive #4. It also can grab most of the non-toolbox creatures in the deck, especially when in need of a sac outlet (Feeder is CMC 1). I’m most satisfied with this build (of the decks I’ve tested IRL), mostly due to versatility that the toolbox provides.
Priced out on Troll and Toad, this deck runs about $45. This is also assuming you have access to the easy-access commons for $.10-$.25 each. If you were to buy the full deal right now T&T, it would probably cost about $50. Need to cut it down a bit more? By removing Tombstalker and replacing them with another Faceless Butcher and Fleshbag, you can save roughly $18, bumping this down to roughly $30.
This build is obviously budgeted, but can still hold on fairly well. You lose a bit of speed from taking away chrome mox, but by replacing it with Twisted Abomination, you not only have a way to make your land drops, but can also do a pseudo-recurring deck thinning via Tortured Existence. Terastodon still makes the cut; it’s so good, plus it’s priced under $1. The general strategy is the same, you just rely on Tortured Existence slightly more to affect your graveyard order rather than being able to eat away the junk.
Splash manabase changes.
Depending on the degree of wasteland/stifle in your metagame, running a splash could be painful. If you’re only splashing for the sideboard, I might recommend something like: -6 swamp, +4 Appropriate Fetchland, +1 Appropriate Dual, +1 Basic. If you plan on splashing more heavily, -8(9) swamp, +4 fetch, +3(4) dual, +1 basic.
Just remember, while a splash can swing some matchups significantly in your favor, it does open you up to some hate. Make sure that the splash will help you more than it hurts.
Section VI – Interactions and Strategies
(For the sake of my sanity, I’m going to break this down into subsections.)
The nightmare effect – The trick which the deck is named after. The nightmare effect is achieved fairly simply:
· Step 1: The nightmare enters the battlefield. · Step 2: Once it enters the battlefield, you choose a target for its ‘enters the battlefield’ triggered ability. · Step 3: Before this ability resolves (you must retain priority), remove the nightmare from play. This can be done by sacrificing it (which is how this deck handles it), but can be done by other means, though not in the given decklists. **Notice** By passing priority after naming a target, you allow the ability to resolve. Once this happens, you no longer are able to use the nightmare effect to get a permanent effect; in this case, it can be undone by later removing the nightmare from play. · Step 4: Because the nightmare left play, it’s ‘leave the battlefield’ trigger will be put on the stack on top of the ‘enters the battlefield’ trigger. · Step 5: The leaves play trigger resolves, but since its first part hasn’t resolved yet, the initial target cannot be returned (creature back onto the battlefield if done by Faceless Butcher, card back to hand if done by Mesmeric Fiend) · Step 6: The ‘enters the battlefield’ finally gets to resolve. Because the ‘leaves play’ trigger has already resolved, the target will be permanently exiled.
Simply put, the nightmare hits play, you sacrifice it, the nightmare permanently exiles an appropriate target.
Buried Alive – Stacks made from Buried Alive can be incredibly useful to the nightmare effect. The big thing is the versatility that Buried Alive can give; you can make stacks for most situations. For example, you’re playing against an agro deck and have Tortured Existence, but need removal, grabbing something like Shriekmaw + 2x Krovikan Horror (under the ‘Maw, of course) can allow for some serious damage to their field. The three picks can obviously suit the need, so if you need removal but don’t have Tortured Existence, Marauder allows you to turn your Corpse Dance into a recurring edict. I won’t go through all the possible stacks, but you can answer nearly all situations with Buried Alive + Tortured Existence/Corpse Dance.
Tortured Existence – This is where the card advantage is made. Krovikan Horror plus Shriekmaw allows for 3 mana removal each turn. Horror + Marauder offers 4 mana edicts each turn. Post board, Faerie Macabre allows you to nerf their graveyard slowly but surely. Tortured existence also offers protection from grave-hate. Any card-specific graveyard removal is easily trumped (this also deals with Reanimate fairly easily). Cards like Tormod’s Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are a little more difficult (especially the latter) pre-board, but Tortured Existence can make their removal less effective as it limits what they hit to the least effective cards you’ve got access to.
Corpse Dance – This one’s pretty straight forward; however, there are some very important tricks you should know about before playing this deck:
· 1. End of turn – Because Corpse Dance creates a triggered ability that goes off at the beginning of the next end step, you are able to cast Corpse Dance during the end step of an opponent’s turn and keep the creature until your end step. This can be done to get to a creature that’s second from top, or to help with an alpha strike. · 2. Instant Speed – Instant speed discard is broken. Wizards acknowledges this, and will rarely print this (Haunting Hymn and Funeral Charm are the only two I can think of offhand). While playing The Nightmare Effect, you have an opportunity to abuse a similar effect to effectively lock an opponent out of the game. This particular interaction uses Mesmeric Fiend, any sac outlet and Corpse Dance. Because priority is passed during the draw step (after the player draws), you are able to cast Corpse Dance, bring back Mesmeric Fiend and use the nightmare effect to permanently exile the card from their hand. While doing this, you opponent has no opportunity to cast anything outside of instants, and only allows lands to stick in their hand. · 3. It doesn't target. This is huge. While something like Reanimate targets a creature card in a graveyard, Corpse Dance does not. This means if the top creature of your graveyard gets removed for whatever reason, you snag the next one down. If there's nothing sitting in your grave, if you played it with buyback, it still comes back, as it never targets (so can't fizzle).
Obviously Krovikan Horror is a huge part of most of the interactions, which is why there’s a 4-of plus Buried Alive. While he is a huge part, he isn’t necessary; however, if they get stripped from your deck completely (Extirpate, Cranial Extraction etc.) you will likely become more dependent on Corpse Dance to push through for your win
Space set aside for periodically updated matchup analysis.
Enchantress - An absolute *****. It is one of the most complicated matchups I've played, and it was also one of the most fun ones. For this matchup, you can expect to be in for long games. Things I've learned about this matchup:
1. Getting the Mesmeric Fiend-Corpse Dance engine online can win you the game. No doubts, this is one of the best moves you have against them main deck. Early on, by grabbing their enchantresseffects or their tutors, you can really mess up their game plan.
2. Terastodon = Bomb. Even if it's only able to eat a sterling grove, they're forced to choose between taking the elephant or tutoring. It also takes care of other bothersome enchantments such as Ground Seal and City of Solitude (if only because it stops our lock).
3. Shriekmaw and Butcher - Not so great ;). Their only creature (that's worth casting) is Argothian Enchantress which has shroud, so naturally, Butcher and 'Maw are less powerful against them. These two can, however, eat Angel Tokens, so they're not completely dead, but it's highly likely that you'll have better cards in the sideboard.
4. Your best choice of removal for Enchantresses main deck is Fleshbag Marauder. If you're running him, be sure to grab one on your first Buried Alive, because it's one of your best ways to slow them down (other than violentlyrapingtheirhand.
5. Both decks are a ***** to play, so naturally, the matchup will hurt. Tough decisions will be made by both players, so it will likely take a good deal of time. Try to stay calm and make the best decisions you can. Also remember that after they draw, it's too late for them to pay their upkeep costs
In short, the matchup is a pain in the ass for both players. I'd say it's about even. It really comes down to who makes the most play mistakes (no exaggeration)
Even with the Mox, it seems rather high(3-4) to get the engine working.
For the most recent build:
CC// # of cards
0 // 4
1 // 11
2 // 10 (Shriekmaw is listed here)
3 // 5
4 // 5
5 // 4 (Corpse dance with buyback
other // 4
Usually your first turn or two is geared towards disrupting their hand and setting up the start of your engine (dropping Tortured Existence and/or Buried Alive). Once you hit 3-5 lands, things seem to sway heavily in your favor.
I'm kind of the 'pioneer' of the budget versions, though I do own all the cards to build the 'real' version. It's still quite good, and I argue that Twisted Abomination is better than Chrome Mox.
I've been testing a heavy green splash for Golgari Brownscale and Sakura Tribe Elder. I'm not sure if STE is better than Twisted Abomination yet. Though it lets you get more than one land a turn, they come into play tapped and have to be basic.
Brownscale does retarded things when you have two of them between your hand and graveyard. Dredging is sometimes a good idea for the deck, but the chances of burying a Krovikan Horror under chaff makes it sketchy.
-T
Dredging is sometimes a good idea for the deck, but the chances of burying a Krovikan Horror under chaff makes it sketchy.
-T
Don't understand why this is a threat. Use the enchantment to get Krovikan back to your hand, then replace it on top, and continue as usual.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Don't understand why this is a threat. Use the enchantment to get Krovikan back to your hand, then replace it on top, and continue as usual.
That's assuming you see Tortured Existence every game and that it hits play and stays in play, all of which aren't guaranteed. Especially if you're dredging.
There's a quasi-similar version of this deck in Peasant based around TE and dredge creatures that I run, it's where the Brownscale tech came from. That deck doesn't get very much card advantage or recursion, though.
-T
I have tried out Coffers + Urborg, but I don't have enough testing to say for sure one way or the other. Urborg isn't terrible on its own, but if you get stuck with a Coffers + 1 swamp hand, you're stuck. There's also the issue of the fact that they're non-basics, which opens your vulnerability to land.dec, goblins and tempo thresh.
As for Lake of the Dead, it has the same issues as Dark Ritual. While it does effectively turn each swamp into a Corpse Dance with buyback, it also costs you that land. Without a solid draw engine, that adds up quickly. It increases your vulnerability to wasteland significantly, as one of their land turns into effectively two of yours. Tack on the fact that you don't necessarily want junk hitting the graveyard because of Krovikan Horror, and I'd be incredibly hesitant to run it.
mono black doesn't seem to be able to stop gy hate very well, i.e. leyline
This was further addressed under the green splash. Leyline hurts. This is one of the biggest reasons for splashing; answers to enchantments that black has access to cause too much damage to you as well, but that's one of black's flaws :-\
Could Tidehollow Sculler be played in the white splash variant? It looks like a stronger alternative to Mesmeric Fiend to me. You could opt to play both, of course. Krovikan Horror also looks a bit expensive to cast for its sacrificial triggered ability, but I haven't playtested this deck at all, so I'm not too sure if this makes much of a difference.
This primer is very long, very comprehensive, and just very awesome. I like it.
Does Zombie Infestation have a place in here? You could discard extra Krovikan Horrors and other creatures then return them to your hand either using Krovikan Horror's triggered ability or using Tortured Existence for any other creature. In non-budget builds, it also makes use of late game Chrome Moxes. As you said, late-game, you have a lot of cards in hand, and this makes good use of them.
Another card I thought about is Ashen Ghoul, though I'm not too sure about it. It's a recurring 3/1 with haste for B, but with everything coming in and out of the grave, I'm not sure if it'd be useful, or if it would just sit in the grave with less than 3 creatures above it most of the time.
Could Tidehollow Sculler be played in the white splash variant? It looks like a stronger alternative to Mesmeric Fiend to me. You could opt to play both, of course. Krovikan Horror also looks a bit expensive to cast for its sacrificial triggered ability, but I haven't playtested this deck at all, so I'm not too sure if this makes much of a difference.
This primer is very long, very comprehensive, and just very awesome. I like it.
Krovikan Horror's primary function is the triggered "return to hand" ability. The fact that he's also a sac outlet is just icing on the cake. Obviously Carrion Feeder would be more explosive, but sometimes we're not blessed with seeing him early on. Times like this is where Horror comes out to play. I do like Tidehollow Sculler. I really do. He's Just more agressive than the Fiend. I can just see two problems that he has over Fiend: 1. His cost. Obviously if you're splashing, you're going to be changing your manabase. This is more of a paranoid thing for me. It's not likely to be a problem. 2. He's an artifact. That not only opens him up to additional hate (Qasali Pridemage comes to mind), but this also means you can't pitch him to Chrome Mox. Again, not likely to be a huge problem, but I feel it necessary to point this out. And thank you ^^. I had difficulty sleeping the other night so I started this. Needless to say, I didn't sleep well that night
Does Zombie Infestation have a place in here? You could discard extra Krovikan Horrors and other creatures then return them to your hand either using Krovikan Horror's triggered ability or using Tortured Existence for any other creature. In non-budget builds, it also makes use of late game Chrome Moxes. As you said, late-game, you have a lot of cards in hand, and this makes good use of them. Another card I thought about is Ashen Ghoul, though I'm not too sure about it. It's a recurring 3/1 with haste for B, but with everything coming in and out of the grave, I'm not sure if it'd be useful, or if it would just sit in the grave with less than 3 creatures above it most of the time.
Zombie Infestation seems interesting. I would definitely be worth testing out. I'd suggest trying it out in the test slot, where Scion of Darkness is. I do like the idea of cranking out two zombies per turn rotation. I didn't even bother testing cards like Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul. This is because The Nightmare Effect, while a graveyard-dependent deck, does not go all-in like dredge does. The deck, after it stabilizes, tends to hover at around 2-3 creatures in the graveyard. This is mostly due to the fact that we have Krovikan Horror that usually only sits in the graveyard for about one turn. Even if I felt like I could safely run Ashen Ghoul, I don't think i would. I feel like the body is too frail and playing him doesn't give you anything that you don't already have access to. The only time that I'd feel safe running him would be if Iona is making up a significant portion of your metagame. In this situation, the ability to sneak into play without casting it would be very useful.
Have you considered Bloodghast? Buried Alive for three Bloodghast (or two Bloodghast plus Horror if you've got Tortured Existence up) is a very strong play that will beat most control decks on its own. They pitch to Existence very well, giving you another way to turn it into card advantage, plus they are very good with sacrifice effects.
So, I've tested a few games with Zombie Infestation and it's really good! The extra discard outlet is great for getting rid of Terastodons that end up in your hand, extra Krovikan Horrors that you can't play that turn, and any other extra useless card (late game Hymn to Tourachs, Chrome Moxes, Duress, etc.). In addition to all that, you get a nice 2/2 creature out of the deal!
So, I've tested a few games with Zombie Infestation and it's really good! The extra discard outlet is great for getting rid of Terastodons that end up in your hand, extra Krovikan Horrors that you can't play that turn, and any other extra useless card (late game Hymn to Tourachs, Chrome Moxes, Duress, etc.). In addition to all that, you get a nice 2/2 creature out of the deal!
Here's the current list I'm working with
[Deck removed to save space. Look at top of page for decklist]
I like how this looks. Something about being able to crank out zombies like this just seems right. Let me know what testing shows
Having run a Zombie Infestation / Krovikan Horror / Buried Alive / Squee deck in casual a while ago, I really like this deck. I have most of the cards, so I guess I'll give it a try at our local tourney in some weeks. This seems like great fun, although I think the combo matchup will be absolutely horrible. You have no relevant clock and discard isn't really good against Storm anymore.
So far, I haven't been able to test IRL against any storm combo. I have played against Dream Halls combo and Belcher in tournaments, both of which seemed fairly favorable for us.
Versus Belcher, game 1 seems to come down to the die roll. If they keep a slower hand, they are much more susceptible to your discard, and you should fully exploit that. Resolving Empty the Warrens isn't necessarily game, but if they go Storm=5, it's hard to recover (pre-board, of course). Post board, bring in Pithing Needle (Naming belcher), and field wipe (Infest, or the like). I think I sided in 4 needle, 3 infest; out 1 of each Horror, Shriekmaw, Tombstalker (both of these, actually), Mox, Fleshbag, and Scion.
Dream Halls was a really weird match. If they resolve dream halls, weird stuff can happen, mostly due to the fact that we run Corpse Dance. Being able to discard the creature we want to bring back to cast Corpse Dance, becomes comical. Don't forget that Buyback is an additional cost, so you can pay the 2 in addition to discarding a black card to cover it all. Take advantage of your discard, and pick wisely. Taking out Dream Halls doesn't necessarily win you the game, especially if they're running Show and Tell; they can sneak in Progenitus. Just remember, situations like this (where they've got one giant em-effer) is why Fleshbag Marauder is awesome. I can't remember exactly how I sideboarded for this matchup, but it's safe to assume that Shriekmaw and Butcher are less than ideal. I remember bringing in Pithing Needle, but I just named his fetchlands (killed two Polluted Deltas this way).
I certainly plan on doing more extensive testing once I return to school (we're off for spring break this last week). Hopefully I'll have more in-depth matchup analysis by this time next week.
What do you think of Oblivion Stone,Nevinyrral's Disk or even Smokestack, say if you want to go mono black all the way (assuming you didn't manage to hit them with duress or hymm)?
I found another utility creature, Dakmor Ghoul/Highway Robber, that might help you to gain life and doubles as a win con.
Also, if you're going destroy permanents, why not Woodfall Primus? With Persist and Trample, it sounds good.
Puppeteer Clique might be good to reanimate stuff from your opponent gy and exile it afterwards (i.e. against reanimator), though I'm not sure the CMC justifies it.
Btw, could Sorin sit on the slot of one of the tombstalkers, or even be included in the deck? He can't be tutored, but being able to ping down your opponent to then life and ping 2 ever turn seems fun =P
Also, from those pauper and peasant lists, one of the ways to go is via stuff with dredge (maybe with golgari from the primer to help us stall the game with/without squee).
Squee is off color and doesn't do anything unless you have a Tortured Existence out. Horror can be cast in mono-black and offers a sacrifice outlet on top of the returning to your hand.
Please don't copy people's posts, even if they are from another forum, without giving due credit. C_c
What do you think of Oblivion Stone,Nevinyrral's Disk or even Smokestack, say if you want to go mono black all the way (assuming you didn't manage to hit them with duress or hymm)?
I found another utility creature, Dakmor Ghoul/Highway Robber, that might help you to gain life and doubles as a win con.
Also, if you're going destroy permanents, why not Woodfall Primus? With Persist and Trample, it sounds good.
Puppeteer Clique might be good to reanimate stuff from your opponent gy and exile it afterwards (i.e. against reanimator), though I'm not sure the CMC justifies it.
Oblivion stone and Nev's Disk could work well; Smokestack, not so much. The first two can at least seem to go off at will (although the can and will eat your own enchantments), where Smokestack eats your stuff, eats the stuff he wants it to, and by the time it kills off the leyline, you're stuck with very little.
I was sifting through some black cards on Thursday, and saw the ghoul. It's probably worth testing, although I'm not fully sure what matchups it would be beneficial in (AnT, maybe?)
Woodfall Primus is an interesting choice. The thing is, while the Persist is nice, it still hits 1 thing (two with a sac-outlet). I personally fell for the Elephant, but Primus can always be tried out in his place.
Clique is pretty much what I was looking for in the Scion slot; just something to do stupid ☺☺☺☺ with you opponents' graveyards. It looks like it'd be better at the stealing, although less of a beatstick. The fact that their stuff is only yours temporarily can also be a drawback, although you're basically guaranteed to get it.
So I've been messing around on MWS with the concept yesterday. After some games, I had the following concerns:
- You can't always perfectly control your graveyard order
- Tombstalker clogs up my hand too often with the relatively high mana curve
- You don't do anything if you don't draw into your engine quickly.
- You need protection against countermagic for Tortured Existence.
So 4x Thoughtseize seems fine. For drawing extra cards (to find the engine) and de-junking my graveyard, Skeletal Scrying seems appropriate. It's a bit of a lategame bomb, but it's instant speed and is usually fine if it draws you 2 cards. More to come, maybe I'll try incorporating the Zombie Infestation engine "just cause". We could also try to capitalize on that with splashing green for Life from the Loam, which also fills the graveyard, ensures important land drops and can free up Krovikan Horrors.
-Graveyard order can be a little rough. Obviously, that's why we've got Tortured Existence (on top of the obvious reasons), but Tombstalker, as well.
-Tombstalker can be a dead draw earlier on. However, it does pitch to Chrome Mox, and can be used alongside Tortured Existence if you can't find another guy.
-This one can be a legitimate problem. You can play with either Tortured Existence or Corpse Dance fairly effectively, but there are times where you see (or land) neither. Admittedly, you'll probably be struggling if you're put in that situation. True, it's not like our creatures are dead without those two, but they are less potent.
-Protection against countermagic. As of now, we've got discard, and if you're concerned, you can always play around Daze.
Skeletal Scrying - When I saw you mention this, I started to wonder how I missed it. It seems perfect; not only does it clear up the graveyard, but it can draw you cards in a pinch. Good find
As for dredge, well, I think my concerns for it have been mentioned earlier. My biggest concern would be having a horror shut down by catching crap on top of it. Yes, LftL can pull stuff out from on top of Horror, but it also throws stuff on it. I'm not quite sold on it.
Also, from those pauper and peasant lists, one of the ways to go is via stuff with dredge (maybe with golgari from the primer to help us stall the game with/without squee).
What do you guys think?
Credit Voucher - There's a reason it isn't run. You're not gaining any card advantage, and you're not even guaranteed to gain card quality. I've seen it played, but only under circumstances where each draw was able to be abused (Abundance, Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar). I don't feel like we have access to the resources to abuse it; it seems like it would be "activate voucher => pray"
Top+Scrying Sheets - By this point, you'd be better running Dark Confidant, but then the changes you'd make would substantially change the deck, and you'd probably be better off running MBC.
The baubles - Slowtrip, which isn't terrible. There probably are better options, though.
The cycle lands - The cycling isn't terrible, besides my almost paranoid concerns of having something stuck on top of a horror, but the concern I see is the CIPT. Being out 1 mana for a turn can set you back significantly.
Tainted Pact - Probably not ideal; we're running 18 basics, and wasting 2 mana to exile 2 lands from our deck is pretty bad. We still run plenty of 4-ofs; hitting duplicates sucks. Plus, if you're playing this, you're probably looking for something at least semi-specific. This doesn't guarantee that you'll see it.
By the end, I couldn't really understand what you were getting at. I'm assuming you were referencing the pauper/peasant deck that uses Tortured Existence. That deck is far more oriented towards using the dredge mechanic and Tortured Existence. That deck is even more susceptible to grave-hate than The Nightmare Effect, and hate like Needle is even more brutal.
Also, little potential goodie I stumbled across: Undead Gladiator. It's got a couple things that intrigued me
-Cycling. It lets you draw a card, lets you put stuff on top of your Horror, and it can be brought back to do it again.
-Discard. This fella acts as his own Tortured Existence. Yes, it can only be done during your upkeep, but his ability allows you to discard the big ☺☺☺☺ers that you want in your graveyard (for corpse dance) without necessarily needing Tortured Existence. This ability also helps feed Tombstalker later on.
He's also got a decent body and is fairly cheap to cast. I haven't been able to test him yet, but I think he'll find his way in here as a 2-of.
I'm just randomly throwing data, since all I could find was a wizard article during the extended (where it splash green) and pauper/peasant formats, where the tortured existence was build around. Of course, they were all sub optimal, but sometimes random ideas can lead to eureka!
As for the cards, i'm just randomly suggesting stuff, I filtered from card databases and frequently used cards from the past. Many of my decks run tutors, CA effects, so those were the best I could find using keywords in the search engines =)
Though regarding the clique and the scion, do note that the scion can be cycled while clique can't (meaning you can get rid of it by itself however, it might be useless with the TE engine online.
Just thought about Grave Pact. It would turn things like Carrion Feeder into non-targeted creature removal. With recurring creatures, this would work very well against all the decks that don't run a large amount of threats.
NOTE:
This primer is incredibly dated. More than anything, it should be treated as a brief history of the deck. Updated lists can be found in later posts, thanks to Pinguster, whose continued work on the deck helped pull it (the original list) out of the trash heap.
To the mods: The images posted are hosted on magiccards.info. This does not violate the image leeching rules for the forums.
Thank you.
The Nightmare Effect relies heavily on graveyard order, and can be a bit of a mind☺☺☺☺ to run at time. The deck aims to generate card advantage via Krovikan Horror + Tortured Existence, however, many other synergies are present.
This is the official primer for this deck. As tournament results come up, they will be posted in this thread. This thread is intended for discussion on The Nightmare Effect, both for the mono-black builds listed as of 3/31/2010 and splash builds with potential decklists added at a later date. Suggestions are more than welcome. If you notice tags that don't work or typos, please PM me rather than putting it in a post here.
I. Why Play The Nightmare Effect?
II. Card Choices
III. Considered Cards
IV. Sideboard Suggestions
V. Sample Decklists
VI. Interactions and Strategy
VII. Sample Matchup Analysis
Section I – Why Play The Nightmare Effect?
The Nightmare Effect is a fun deck to pilot. It does take some thinking to work, but it can pay off. If you’re looking for something that requires play skill, is easy to learn but a pain to master, this is the deck for you.
The Nightmare Effect excels against slower aggro decks, such as Aggro Loam. This can also hold it's own against most combo decks, and destroys Jank.
The other upside to playing The Nightmare Effect is the cost. Depending on the build, you can complete the main deck for about $30 US. The more expensive (Mono-black) builds reach up to just above $100. This is significantly less expensive than any decks in the upper tier, and the ‘budget’ build can’t be matched anywhere. Splash builds will (obviously) increase the price, depending on the color splashed and the degree of said splash.
Section II – Card Choices
Here I’ll be running through a list of cards currently being run in The Nightmare Effect for different builds, and offering explanations for each.
Krovikan Horror – I’d hate to say that this is the card that makes the CA engine work, but it’s true. Even if it’s just chump blocking, he always seems to find a purpose. His activated ability is also a vital part of the deck, as it is another enabler for the nightmare effect. Because no other creature has an ability similar enough to this, Krovikan Horror is very difficult to replace. Because Krovikan Horror relies so heavily on graveyard order, Tortured Existence makes it significantly better. Krovikan Horror also makes threats such as Moat less game ending for us. **Notice** Krovikan Horror’s triggered ability checks at the end of *each* turn. This allows for tricks, especially post board (with Faerie Macabre, for example)
Mesmeric Fiend – One of the nightmares. With a way to sacrifice it when it enters the battlefield, we have an opportunity to permanently strip a card from your opponent’s hand. Without one, we still have a way to temporarily keep an opponent off said card, which can be seemingly permanent in certain matchups (certain combo decks, for example).
Faceless Butcher – The other nightmare. Originally run as a 4-of, because of the high casting cost, was cut down to 2-of in the next build (and further cut to 1 later on). His ability is very powerful, especially when using the nightmare effect, but the casting cost is very prohibitive. The other issue here is that without a target on your opponent’s side, you are stuck eating one of your own creatures. Butcher does a great job of dealing with tokens (Marit Lage), and with using the nightmare effect, can absolutely crush slower aggro.
Shriekmaw – The card that pushed the deck up a notch. For 2, we’ve got a terror. Alone, that’s not spectacular, however, because of how evoke works, we’re allowed to respond to the sacrifice trigger once it enters the battlefield. This isn’t necessary to get the full effect from ‘Maw, but certainly helps. While he’s got a small butt, the fact that he’s got fear is also incredibly useful.
Corpse Dance – By itself, you can grab a creature or two safely. Alongside Tortured Existence and Buried Alive (mentioned below), you are able to be much more selective. Access to multiple Sac outlets offers much more consistency and allows for repeated reanimations. Another thing to remember is that Corpse Dance *does not* target, so graveyard removal, while it can be a painful, can be played around.
Buried Alive – Buried Alive allows for more consistency in the deck. Being able to grab 3 creatures from your deck can be useful, but alongside with Tortured Existence, you can generate massive card advantage.
Carrion Feeder – While building the deck, I realized that Krovikan Horror alone wouldn’t make for the consistency needed to use the nightmare effect or corpse dance effectively (or to their fullest potential). Carrion Feeder fits several characteristics: It comes down early, it’s a creature and it allows you to sacrifice your creatures for free. The drawback (the inability to block) can show through in the aggro matchups, but versus combo and control is fairly irrelevant.
Viscera Seer - Another 1cc sac-outlet. Rather than pushing for heavier aggression like Carrion Feeder, Seer pushes for hand sculpting.
Tombstalker – Suggested to me by a random on MWS who’s name eludes me, Tombstalker makes for an excellent addition to the deck. In a deck so reliant on graveyard order, the delve mechanic is amazing; you now have the ability to remove pesky sorceries and instants that are dividing your Krovikan Horrors and remove the weaker creatures to make the most of your Corpse Dance. Plus the fact that it’s a 5/5 flyer isn’t too shabby.
Duress/ Thoughtseize – 1cc disruption. There’s not too much to this.
Hymn to Tourach – More disruption, basically there to help accentuate The Nightmare Effect’s control qualities.
Fleshbag Marauder – Currently being played alongside Faceless Butcher. Added to the deck once Reanimator made a showing packing Inkwell Leviathan, but does amazingly well against anything with pro-black or shroud. Marauder is there to compliment Faceless Butcher, not replace him. For those who fear Progenitus, this baby’s your answer.
Gatekeeper of Malakir - Edict on a stick. Pros - Doesn't force a sacrifice out of you, 2/2 body is less frail than Fleshbag, can be cast for 2. Cons - Doesn't trigger off Corpse Dance, CMC 2 (yes, that can be relevant), needs a sacrifice outlet to recur.
Beseech the Queen – I’ve been testing this as a 1-of, a silver bullet type tutor. I personally find the versatility of the card to be quite appealing, although it could be replaced based on metagame needs or personal preferences.
Twisted Abomination – Currently being played in a (more) budget build, this fella’ covers deck thinning, ability to make your land drops, and late game, makes for a decent body. He also does a wonderful job alongside Tortured Existence as well as Krovikan Horror.
Terastodon – Being played as a 1-of for the sole use of coming back to rape their field with Corpse Dance. Every time I’ve had this guy hit the field, I’ve won the game. Playing Terastodon offers us opportunities to deal with cards that we otherwise would have almost no chance to deal with (Artifacts, Enchantments, Planeswalkers), as well as offering us an opportunity to get rid of excess lands, moxen, etc. for creatures.
Scion of Darkness – The Scion is currently my test slot. Originally put in because of Reanimator, can help significantly in the late game of many matchups. This card also does a wonder against jank. Cycling can randomly help, although the only times I’ve used it more than one time during a game was once I had them locked down and I was looking for a win condition.
Spore Frog - Thanks go out to Shyo for bringing this guy up, Spore Frog is a wonderful addition, and can stall like a champ against aggro. Watch out for instant speed removal, however, as that can force you to break him on your own turn. Use Frog as a stall tactic, not as a hard lock.
Chrome Mox – Replaced by Twisted Abomination in the budget build, Chrome Mox offers a more explosive first few turns. Unlike Abomination, however, it becomes a dead draw during the late game.
Swamp – The land portion of the manabase was restricted to basics for a number of reasons:
Section III – Considered Cards
Simple enough: A section of cards that I’ve run in the past and have been able to find better replacements for or prove that they’re unneeded. Also for cards that will likely be suggested, so I’ll be saving you the time. Before suggesting other cards, check here first.
Street Wraith – Originally, I had attempted to use Street Wraith + Tortured Existence to generate some small card advantage. 2 life adds up really quickly. Its body is decent, but there definitely better options.
Entomb – With a price tag in the $30 range, it certainly doesn’t help on a significant level. The issue isn’t with the tutor, but more with the graveyard order thing. The significance of Buried Alive as opposed to Entomb is the sheer advantage you can make with Tortured Existence. With Entomb, you can’t effectively grab Krovikan Horror, which is a huge downside.
Soul Scourge / Laquatus’s Champion – These just don’t work. Due to the wording, the nightmare effect has no true effect here.
Hypnox – Would have been wonderful, but requires it to be cast from your hand. No such luck here.
Phyrexian Arena – I was looking for a way to draw cards. Didn’t particularly like this one. While it does a good job of drawing you cards, it does have the issue of killing you. For the longer games (which does happen quite frequently), this can be fairly detrimental.
Angel of Despair – I looked at her and thought to myself, “What does she do that I can’t already to?” The answer is simple: Nothing. Terastodon is strictly better for removing pesky permanents, and you already keep creatures in check fairly well through Shriekmaw and Butcher/Marauder.
Petradon – See Angel of Despair. The problem is that, unless your opponent is using/relying on Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam, this card is strictly worse than Terastodon.
Section IV –Sideboard Suggestions
Pithing Needle – Two of the most popular forms of graveyard hate are easily answered by needle.
Extirpate – I felt that having another form of grave hate could be beneficial. This also can be used against combo, although other disruption in the main can do wonders as well.
Infest – Obviously here to help with the swarms. The Nightmare Effect struggles with fast aggro (Zoo, goblins, elves). This seems to be the best answer; against goblins, keeping them off their chieftains and nailing them with an Infest can slow them down enough for you to stabilize.
Faceless Butcher – Right now, I’ve been running two of these guys in the board. This guy has a tendency to come in during matchups like Dark Depths combo, as well as against Reanimator. Against slower aggro (aggro loam, for example), this guy can be a beast.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer – You will rarely have zero cards in your hand. In fact, as the game goes on, you’re likely to have an increasing number of cards in your hand. This is a creature answer (therefore, tutorable via Buried Alive) to faster aggro decks, especially those utilizing swarms rather than a few bigger guys. I’d recommend using him as a 1-of alongside infest.
Havoc Demon – More chaotic than Kagemaro, Havoc Demon can be used *if* you’re prepared to rebuild. Not that rebuilding is unreasonable for this deck. When the Demon (or Kagemaro, for that matter) goes off, be sure to order your graveyard right; Krovikan Horror needs something on top of it to help spark the rebuilding.
Golgari Brownscale – Suggested to me by Dissolution, this card allows you to survive much longer against burn and friends. Having access to two allows each black mana to turn into 2 life.
Section IV.5 – Splash Sideboarding
Obviously, if you plan on running a splash, you’re able to run different sideboard tech. Here’s a list of the more desirable suggestions for sideboarding for a splash.
Green
· Tranquil Domain – I’ve always had a bit of a hardon for this card, ever since goblins was splashing green to live through Engineered Plague. If you’re seeing enchantress, this might not be a terrible call. Reverent Silence can also be used here.
· Indrik Stomphowler, Acidic Slime and family – Green’s probably got the best creatures for their CIP abilities. The Slime offers land destruction without giving away creatures, although it’s far less aggressive.
White
· Circle of Protection: Red/ Aegis of Honor – If you’re struggling with zoo, this might be the answer. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to test the splash yet, but from experience, The Nightmare Effect struggles with Burn and Sligh decks. If you’re seeing plenty of these archetypes in your meta, it might be suggested that you try one of these.
· Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law – Technically can be run versus combo, particularly Storm (duh) and Enchantress. This only should be done if the current disruption suite (of 9-12 cards) that you’re running is still lacking.
Red
· Pyroclasm/ Volcanic Fallout - To help with goblins and merfolk, and zoo (to a lesser extent). Fallout can be impressive, especially if you’re counting on counter-top or merfolk to make a strong showing. Instant speed can also help significantly with a Zombie Swarm.
· Petradon – This could also be played in the main, but it’s just a nice way to sneak some more control in. Using the nightmare effect with him can make for some upset opponents, however, once their lands are gone, you *will* have to target your own stuff when it enters.
Blue
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Version 1 Decklist
4 Krovikan Horror
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Faceless Butcher
4 Shriekmaw
3 Street Wraith
3 Buried Alive
4 Duress
4 Corpse Dance
18 Swamp
However, this build did struggle. The deck relied fairly heavily on higher casting cost creatures and lacked the disruption to allow for a longer game, where this deck shines. Street Wraith, where it was originally run to generate a bit more card advantage/deck thinning, but the 2 life added up really quickly, and you could rarely afford to use it more than twice.
Version 2 Decklist
4 Krovikan Horror
4 Mesmeric Fiend
2 Faceless Butcher
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
3 Buried Alive
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Corpse Dance
18 Swamp
Version 3 Decklist
4 Krovikan Horror
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
1 Scion of Darkness
1 Terastodon
3 Buried Alive
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Corpse Dance
1 Beseech the Queen
18 Swamp
Sample Budget Decklist
4 Krovikan Horror
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
4 Twisted Abomination
1 Terastodon
3 Buried Alive
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Corpse Dance
This build is obviously budgeted, but can still hold on fairly well. You lose a bit of speed from taking away chrome mox, but by replacing it with Twisted Abomination, you not only have a way to make your land drops, but can also do a pseudo-recurring deck thinning via Tortured Existence. Terastodon still makes the cut; it’s so good, plus it’s priced under $1. The general strategy is the same, you just rely on Tortured Existence slightly more to affect your graveyard order rather than being able to eat away the junk.
Just remember, while a splash can swing some matchups significantly in your favor, it does open you up to some hate. Make sure that the splash will help you more than it hurts.
· Step 1: The nightmare enters the battlefield.
· Step 2: Once it enters the battlefield, you choose a target for its ‘enters the battlefield’ triggered ability.
· Step 3: Before this ability resolves (you must retain priority), remove the nightmare from play. This can be done by sacrificing it (which is how this deck handles it), but can be done by other means, though not in the given decklists. **Notice** By passing priority after naming a target, you allow the ability to resolve. Once this happens, you no longer are able to use the nightmare effect to get a permanent effect; in this case, it can be undone by later removing the nightmare from play.
· Step 4: Because the nightmare left play, it’s ‘leave the battlefield’ trigger will be put on the stack on top of the ‘enters the battlefield’ trigger.
· Step 5: The leaves play trigger resolves, but since its first part hasn’t resolved yet, the initial target cannot be returned (creature back onto the battlefield if done by Faceless Butcher, card back to hand if done by Mesmeric Fiend)
· Step 6: The ‘enters the battlefield’ finally gets to resolve. Because the ‘leaves play’ trigger has already resolved, the target will be permanently exiled.
Buried Alive – Stacks made from Buried Alive can be incredibly useful to the nightmare effect. The big thing is the versatility that Buried Alive can give; you can make stacks for most situations. For example, you’re playing against an agro deck and have Tortured Existence, but need removal, grabbing something like Shriekmaw + 2x Krovikan Horror (under the ‘Maw, of course) can allow for some serious damage to their field. The three picks can obviously suit the need, so if you need removal but don’t have Tortured Existence, Marauder allows you to turn your Corpse Dance into a recurring edict. I won’t go through all the possible stacks, but you can answer nearly all situations with Buried Alive + Tortured Existence/Corpse Dance.
Tortured Existence – This is where the card advantage is made. Krovikan Horror plus Shriekmaw allows for 3 mana removal each turn. Horror + Marauder offers 4 mana edicts each turn. Post board, Faerie Macabre allows you to nerf their graveyard slowly but surely. Tortured existence also offers protection from grave-hate. Any card-specific graveyard removal is easily trumped (this also deals with Reanimate fairly easily). Cards like Tormod’s Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are a little more difficult (especially the latter) pre-board, but Tortured Existence can make their removal less effective as it limits what they hit to the least effective cards you’ve got access to.
Corpse Dance – This one’s pretty straight forward; however, there are some very important tricks you should know about before playing this deck:
· 1. End of turn – Because Corpse Dance creates a triggered ability that goes off at the beginning of the next end step, you are able to cast Corpse Dance during the end step of an opponent’s turn and keep the creature until your end step. This can be done to get to a creature that’s second from top, or to help with an alpha strike.
· 2. Instant Speed – Instant speed discard is broken. Wizards acknowledges this, and will rarely print this (Haunting Hymn and Funeral Charm are the only two I can think of offhand). While playing The Nightmare Effect, you have an opportunity to abuse a similar effect to effectively lock an opponent out of the game. This particular interaction uses Mesmeric Fiend, any sac outlet and Corpse Dance. Because priority is passed during the draw step (after the player draws), you are able to cast Corpse Dance, bring back Mesmeric Fiend and use the nightmare effect to permanently exile the card from their hand. While doing this, you opponent has no opportunity to cast anything outside of instants, and only allows lands to stick in their hand.
· 3. It doesn't target. This is huge. While something like Reanimate targets a creature card in a graveyard, Corpse Dance does not. This means if the top creature of your graveyard gets removed for whatever reason, you snag the next one down. If there's nothing sitting in your grave, if you played it with buyback, it still comes back, as it never targets (so can't fizzle).
Edit: Decktags fixed. Thanks C_C!
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Space set aside for periodically updated matchup analysis.
Enchantress - An absolute *****. It is one of the most complicated matchups I've played, and it was also one of the most fun ones. For this matchup, you can expect to be in for long games. Things I've learned about this matchup:
1. Getting the Mesmeric Fiend-Corpse Dance engine online can win you the game. No doubts, this is one of the best moves you have against them main deck. Early on, by grabbing their enchantress effects or their tutors, you can really mess up their game plan.
2. Terastodon = Bomb. Even if it's only able to eat a sterling grove, they're forced to choose between taking the elephant or tutoring. It also takes care of other bothersome enchantments such as Ground Seal and City of Solitude (if only because it stops our lock).
3. Shriekmaw and Butcher - Not so great ;). Their only creature (that's worth casting) is Argothian Enchantress which has shroud, so naturally, Butcher and 'Maw are less powerful against them. These two can, however, eat Angel Tokens, so they're not completely dead, but it's highly likely that you'll have better cards in the sideboard.
4. Your best choice of removal for Enchantresses main deck is Fleshbag Marauder. If you're running him, be sure to grab one on your first Buried Alive, because it's one of your best ways to slow them down (other than violently raping their hand.
5. Both decks are a ***** to play, so naturally, the matchup will hurt. Tough decisions will be made by both players, so it will likely take a good deal of time. Try to stay calm and make the best decisions you can. Also remember that after they draw, it's too late for them to pay their upkeep costs
In short, the matchup is a pain in the ass for both players. I'd say it's about even. It really comes down to who makes the most play mistakes (no exaggeration)
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Even with the Mox, it seems rather high(3-4) to get the engine working.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
For the most recent build:
CC// # of cards
0 // 4
1 // 11
2 // 10 (Shriekmaw is listed here)
3 // 5
4 // 5
5 // 4 (Corpse dance with buyback
other // 4
Usually your first turn or two is geared towards disrupting their hand and setting up the start of your engine (dropping Tortured Existence and/or Buried Alive). Once you hit 3-5 lands, things seem to sway heavily in your favor.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
[180 classic cube]
I've been testing a heavy green splash for Golgari Brownscale and Sakura Tribe Elder. I'm not sure if STE is better than Twisted Abomination yet. Though it lets you get more than one land a turn, they come into play tapped and have to be basic.
Brownscale does retarded things when you have two of them between your hand and graveyard. Dredging is sometimes a good idea for the deck, but the chances of burying a Krovikan Horror under chaff makes it sketchy.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
Also, mono black doesn't seem to be able to stop gy hate very well, i.e. leyline
Just my thoughts
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Don't understand why this is a threat. Use the enchantment to get Krovikan back to your hand, then replace it on top, and continue as usual.
That's assuming you see Tortured Existence every game and that it hits play and stays in play, all of which aren't guaranteed. Especially if you're dredging.
There's a quasi-similar version of this deck in Peasant based around TE and dredge creatures that I run, it's where the Brownscale tech came from. That deck doesn't get very much card advantage or recursion, though.
-T
Tech Manager at MTGOSS <- I make MTGO bots!
I have tried out Coffers + Urborg, but I don't have enough testing to say for sure one way or the other. Urborg isn't terrible on its own, but if you get stuck with a Coffers + 1 swamp hand, you're stuck. There's also the issue of the fact that they're non-basics, which opens your vulnerability to land.dec, goblins and tempo thresh.
As for Lake of the Dead, it has the same issues as Dark Ritual. While it does effectively turn each swamp into a Corpse Dance with buyback, it also costs you that land. Without a solid draw engine, that adds up quickly. It increases your vulnerability to wasteland significantly, as one of their land turns into effectively two of yours. Tack on the fact that you don't necessarily want junk hitting the graveyard because of Krovikan Horror, and I'd be incredibly hesitant to run it.
This was further addressed under the green splash. Leyline hurts. This is one of the biggest reasons for splashing; answers to enchantments that black has access to cause too much damage to you as well, but that's one of black's flaws :-\
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This primer is very long, very comprehensive, and just very awesome. I like it.
Another card I thought about is Ashen Ghoul, though I'm not too sure about it. It's a recurring 3/1 with haste for B, but with everything coming in and out of the grave, I'm not sure if it'd be useful, or if it would just sit in the grave with less than 3 creatures above it most of the time.
[180 classic cube]
Krovikan Horror's primary function is the triggered "return to hand" ability. The fact that he's also a sac outlet is just icing on the cake. Obviously Carrion Feeder would be more explosive, but sometimes we're not blessed with seeing him early on. Times like this is where Horror comes out to play. I do like Tidehollow Sculler. I really do. He's Just more agressive than the Fiend. I can just see two problems that he has over Fiend: 1. His cost. Obviously if you're splashing, you're going to be changing your manabase. This is more of a paranoid thing for me. It's not likely to be a problem. 2. He's an artifact. That not only opens him up to additional hate (Qasali Pridemage comes to mind), but this also means you can't pitch him to Chrome Mox. Again, not likely to be a huge problem, but I feel it necessary to point this out. And thank you ^^. I had difficulty sleeping the other night so I started this. Needless to say, I didn't sleep well that night Zombie Infestation seems interesting. I would definitely be worth testing out. I'd suggest trying it out in the test slot, where Scion of Darkness is. I do like the idea of cranking out two zombies per turn rotation. I didn't even bother testing cards like Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul. This is because The Nightmare Effect, while a graveyard-dependent deck, does not go all-in like dredge does. The deck, after it stabilizes, tends to hover at around 2-3 creatures in the graveyard. This is mostly due to the fact that we have Krovikan Horror that usually only sits in the graveyard for about one turn. Even if I felt like I could safely run Ashen Ghoul, I don't think i would. I feel like the body is too frail and playing him doesn't give you anything that you don't already have access to. The only time that I'd feel safe running him would be if Iona is making up a significant portion of your metagame. In this situation, the ability to sneak into play without casting it would be very useful.
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Here's the current list I'm working with
3 Krovikan Horror
2 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
1 Terastodon
4 Zombie Infestation
3 Buried Alive
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Corpse Dance
18 Swamp
[180 classic cube]
I like how this looks. Something about being able to crank out zombies like this just seems right. Let me know what testing shows
So far, I haven't been able to test IRL against any storm combo. I have played against Dream Halls combo and Belcher in tournaments, both of which seemed fairly favorable for us.
Versus Belcher, game 1 seems to come down to the die roll. If they keep a slower hand, they are much more susceptible to your discard, and you should fully exploit that. Resolving Empty the Warrens isn't necessarily game, but if they go Storm=5, it's hard to recover (pre-board, of course). Post board, bring in Pithing Needle (Naming belcher), and field wipe (Infest, or the like). I think I sided in 4 needle, 3 infest; out 1 of each Horror, Shriekmaw, Tombstalker (both of these, actually), Mox, Fleshbag, and Scion.
Dream Halls was a really weird match. If they resolve dream halls, weird stuff can happen, mostly due to the fact that we run Corpse Dance. Being able to discard the creature we want to bring back to cast Corpse Dance, becomes comical. Don't forget that Buyback is an additional cost, so you can pay the 2 in addition to discarding a black card to cover it all. Take advantage of your discard, and pick wisely. Taking out Dream Halls doesn't necessarily win you the game, especially if they're running Show and Tell; they can sneak in Progenitus. Just remember, situations like this (where they've got one giant em-effer) is why Fleshbag Marauder is awesome. I can't remember exactly how I sideboarded for this matchup, but it's safe to assume that Shriekmaw and Butcher are less than ideal. I remember bringing in Pithing Needle, but I just named his fetchlands (killed two Polluted Deltas this way).
I certainly plan on doing more extensive testing once I return to school (we're off for spring break this last week). Hopefully I'll have more in-depth matchup analysis by this time next week.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Regarding enchantment hate right, i.e. leyline.
What do you think of Oblivion Stone,Nevinyrral's Disk or even Smokestack, say if you want to go mono black all the way (assuming you didn't manage to hit them with duress or hymm)?
I found another utility creature, Dakmor Ghoul/Highway Robber, that might help you to gain life and doubles as a win con.
Also, if you're going destroy permanents, why not Woodfall Primus? With Persist and Trample, it sounds good.
Puppeteer Clique might be good to reanimate stuff from your opponent gy and exile it afterwards (i.e. against reanimator), though I'm not sure the CMC justifies it.
Btw, could Sorin sit on the slot of one of the tombstalkers, or even be included in the deck? He can't be tutored, but being able to ping down your opponent to then life and ping 2 ever turn seems fun =P
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Drawing to get the engine pieces its also another issue.
With regards to drawing, would odd stuff like Credit Voucher(get fresh cards into your hand), sensei's divining top(fixing draws, if you run it, then scrying sheets/snow lands is worth consideration, hey maybe even twisted abomination can fit in now), Urza's Bauble/Mishra's Bauble(effectively replaces itself for no mana at all) and Barren Moor/Polluted Mire(helps to dig a little) worth a slot here?
Also, another tutor we could use would be Diabolic Intent/tainted pact, skeletal scrying like what nemesis says seems rather important to dig for stuff.
Also, from those pauper and peasant lists, one of the ways to go is via stuff with dredge (maybe with golgari from the primer to help us stall the game with/without squee).
What do you guys think?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Thanks Darth Monkey
Squee is off color and doesn't do anything unless you have a Tortured Existence out. Horror can be cast in mono-black and offers a sacrifice outlet on top of the returning to your hand.
Please don't copy people's posts, even if they are from another forum, without giving due credit. C_c
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Oblivion stone and Nev's Disk could work well; Smokestack, not so much. The first two can at least seem to go off at will (although the can and will eat your own enchantments), where Smokestack eats your stuff, eats the stuff he wants it to, and by the time it kills off the leyline, you're stuck with very little.
I was sifting through some black cards on Thursday, and saw the ghoul. It's probably worth testing, although I'm not fully sure what matchups it would be beneficial in (AnT, maybe?)
Woodfall Primus is an interesting choice. The thing is, while the Persist is nice, it still hits 1 thing (two with a sac-outlet). I personally fell for the Elephant, but Primus can always be tried out in his place.
Clique is pretty much what I was looking for in the Scion slot; just something to do stupid ☺☺☺☺ with you opponents' graveyards. It looks like it'd be better at the stealing, although less of a beatstick. The fact that their stuff is only yours temporarily can also be a drawback, although you're basically guaranteed to get it.
-Graveyard order can be a little rough. Obviously, that's why we've got Tortured Existence (on top of the obvious reasons), but Tombstalker, as well.
-Tombstalker can be a dead draw earlier on. However, it does pitch to Chrome Mox, and can be used alongside Tortured Existence if you can't find another guy.
-This one can be a legitimate problem. You can play with either Tortured Existence or Corpse Dance fairly effectively, but there are times where you see (or land) neither. Admittedly, you'll probably be struggling if you're put in that situation. True, it's not like our creatures are dead without those two, but they are less potent.
-Protection against countermagic. As of now, we've got discard, and if you're concerned, you can always play around Daze.
Skeletal Scrying - When I saw you mention this, I started to wonder how I missed it. It seems perfect; not only does it clear up the graveyard, but it can draw you cards in a pinch. Good find
As for dredge, well, I think my concerns for it have been mentioned earlier. My biggest concern would be having a horror shut down by catching crap on top of it. Yes, LftL can pull stuff out from on top of Horror, but it also throws stuff on it. I'm not quite sold on it.
Credit Voucher - There's a reason it isn't run. You're not gaining any card advantage, and you're not even guaranteed to gain card quality. I've seen it played, but only under circumstances where each draw was able to be abused (Abundance, Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar). I don't feel like we have access to the resources to abuse it; it seems like it would be "activate voucher => pray"
Top+Scrying Sheets - By this point, you'd be better running Dark Confidant, but then the changes you'd make would substantially change the deck, and you'd probably be better off running MBC.
The baubles - Slowtrip, which isn't terrible. There probably are better options, though.
The cycle lands - The cycling isn't terrible, besides my almost paranoid concerns of having something stuck on top of a horror, but the concern I see is the CIPT. Being out 1 mana for a turn can set you back significantly.
Tainted Pact - Probably not ideal; we're running 18 basics, and wasting 2 mana to exile 2 lands from our deck is pretty bad. We still run plenty of 4-ofs; hitting duplicates sucks. Plus, if you're playing this, you're probably looking for something at least semi-specific. This doesn't guarantee that you'll see it.
Diabolic Intent - Doesn't seem terrible; warrants testing.
By the end, I couldn't really understand what you were getting at. I'm assuming you were referencing the pauper/peasant deck that uses Tortured Existence. That deck is far more oriented towards using the dredge mechanic and Tortured Existence. That deck is even more susceptible to grave-hate than The Nightmare Effect, and hate like Needle is even more brutal.
Also, little potential goodie I stumbled across: Undead Gladiator. It's got a couple things that intrigued me
-Cycling. It lets you draw a card, lets you put stuff on top of your Horror, and it can be brought back to do it again.
-Discard. This fella acts as his own Tortured Existence. Yes, it can only be done during your upkeep, but his ability allows you to discard the big ☺☺☺☺ers that you want in your graveyard (for corpse dance) without necessarily needing Tortured Existence. This ability also helps feed Tombstalker later on.
He's also got a decent body and is fairly cheap to cast. I haven't been able to test him yet, but I think he'll find his way in here as a 2-of.
Ok, 4:30 am, need sleep. Happy Easter!
-Jon
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
I'm just randomly throwing data, since all I could find was a wizard article during the extended (where it splash green) and pauper/peasant formats, where the tortured existence was build around. Of course, they were all sub optimal, but sometimes random ideas can lead to eureka!
As for the cards, i'm just randomly suggesting stuff, I filtered from card databases and frequently used cards from the past. Many of my decks run tutors, CA effects, so those were the best I could find using keywords in the search engines =)
Though regarding the clique and the scion, do note that the scion can be cycled while clique can't (meaning you can get rid of it by itself however, it might be useless with the TE engine online.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
[180 classic cube]