The choice of Seize, Duress and Inquistion varies with your meta game too, i.e. Inquisition is more favoured in aggro(like zoo) heavy meta games, duress for more combo/control heavy meta and thoughtseize if you're unsure, or not a heavy blend of either.
It is good to note that some people sideboard inquistion instead of spell pierce.
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I think they were referring to playing Inqusition of Kozilek in the main vs duress vs thoughtseize. If you are only bringing it in from the sideboard then it's probably going to be duress because you'd usually want to bring something in to deal with combo or counterspells.
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Although i don't like the 2 life lost to thoughtseize the truth is that if you fetch and force you are at 18 and can only reanimate once, so thoughtseize or no, you can only reanimate once.
Despite that, if you reaminate something and get to 9, (7 with thoughtseize) you will have to be carefull or they will race you so that 2 life might get relevant.
Although you can use thoughtseize to discard a creature, you have more reanimation targets on your deck and you have 4 carefull study and 4 mystical tutors and 4 brainstorms with fetchs to shuffle the creature back, so getting a creature out off your hand isn't likely to be a problem.
As for Inquisition of Kozilek i dont like it. You want to discard Forces and Ad-Nauseum which you can't with it. Duress is the best choice for me, you dont loose life, you dont want to discard creatures from him anyway cos what you really want is to protect your combo. From sideboard i like Spell Pierce and thoughtseize (even with the life loss) more than the Inquisition cos you want to hit Force of Will, Ad Nauseum, Tendrils, Belcher etc
I dont think there is any situation were you would want Inquisition of Kozilek but correct me if i'm wrong
As for sideboarding i also have some troubles because all cards seem to be relevant in the main deck so a usually I just take out some singletons like Dark Ritual and a single Ponder but i allways sideboard in one Show and Tell and bouce for Crypts/Relics so that leaves me with some choices to make which i'm never sure .... If someone could post a primer on how to sideboard (exactly which cards to replace) with this deck, that would be great.
+1 for the SB ---- just started playing this deck 3 times since I came back to magic last month. So Im still new with the format.
@malkkk:
I do run both discard and counters, I was just pointing out that seize is a better overall spell but inquisition just works well against aggro decks with low cmc and that you don't get too much life sucked from you.
@rancorous_fool:
We do not replace seize with spell pierce, pierce and duress is usually found in SB for more counters/discard. I have used seize to discard my creatures and reanimate ftw many of times.
As for creature boarding, it heavily depends on your creatures in SB, however, we don't dedicate too many slots for creatures maybe 0-1, do note that in the end the number of creatures in deck should be around 5-6 or you might have quite a bit of trouble.
As for 3 reverent silence, we run a mix of 2 claim + 1 grip, some just run 3 grips and some even 4 =D I would say 3 RS isn't excessive.
Just my thoughts
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I feel this provides some support for the use of thought seize instead of spell pierce or duress. Being able to target yourself is very relevant.
Hey, has everyone totally forgotten about Cabal Therapy??? It's way better than these other options for a Reanimator Deck.
1. Doesn't cost you life (unlike Seize)
2. You can target yourself and put a fat creature in the graveyard (unlike with Duress or Inquisition)
3. If you guess well you can make your opponent discard multiple copies of a card. This isn't as rare as it sounds; often enough you'll know some of the cards your opponent is holding due to SDT, Goblin Ringleader, etc.
4. It also has flashback - sacrifice a creature. Not often possible in this deck, but it can still be useful on occasion.
Sideboard:
-4 ancient tomb
-4 dream halls
-3 conflux
-3 cruel ultimatum
-1 show and tell
Add in whole sideboard.
So basically, the goal is play until you win just one match with the dream hall combo (or if you KNOW that the match-up is awesome with reanimator) and game 2/3 expect them to sideboard whatever is good against combo and then swap in reanimator while they have no grave hate (and good chance no creature hate) where reanimator wins like 70%+ of the games.
Or the good chance they know you have reanimator for transformational then just play mind games switching cards with your sideboard (question can they call stalling when you are shuffling your two builds back and forth in attempt to make them guess which build you are using?)
The flip side is playing reanimator first and then switching to dream hall combo. Although both builds are not exactly optimal, the strength lies in the surprise against no hate.
Anyone considered a transformational sideboard with dream hall combo?
I understand the trick you are trying to do, although they will probably put in their graveyard hate in game 3 (although i guess you could switch back to Dream Halls then).
But something I don't understand. How are you going to cast Iona with Dream Halls? Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you only have 3 cards in your deck to pitch to it (Conflux). Even with tutors, is that enough? I think a blue creature like Inkwell Leviathan or Empyrial Archangel would be much easier to get in play. But if you stay with Iona, it seems like there are more useful white spells to keep than Conflux.
I understand the trick you are trying to do, although they will probably put in their graveyard hate in game 3 (although i guess you could switch back to Dream Halls then).
But something I don't understand. How are you going to cast Iona with Dream Halls? Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you only have 3 cards in your deck to pitch to it (Conflux). Even with tutors, is that enough? I think a blue creature like Inkwell Leviathan or Empyrial Archangel would be much easier to get in play. But if you stay with Iona, it seems like there are more useful white spells to keep than Conflux.
I run two iona, they can either enter play via show and tell or just play conflux and grab iona once,1 conflux, cruel, and two other blue/black cards. Play cruel, draw a few cards, then conflux again grabbing the 2nd iona, another conflux, cruel, and other two blue/black cards. Discard one iona to play the other and play cruel where they should have no hand by now and iona would lock them out of whatever removal they may topdeck. Also the iona is needed for the reanimator build, as you see the sideboard is already pretty tight (though I guess you can just replace the ionas with sphinx and replace the archon with archangel...).
I recently had a failed foray into running ANT (I found it very erratic and difficult to figure out, because I play on an irregular basis and therefore don't get enough vital opportunities to know the ins and outs of the deck), and noticed that some parts of an ANT deck can be used to build Reanimator, which is arguably easier to use in concept and practice.
Its cool that the vital parts for reanimator and ant are the same . I did the opposite from you, what i did was switch from reanimator to ant. I was a little bored with the reanimator, it was easy to use and so powerful. Iona just shuts down the opponent. I bought two packs of sleeves with the same design so that if I get tired of ant, ill be able to switch to reanimator again without taking the cards from their sleeves.
guys I played this deck today , will DURESS be better than THOUGHTSEIZE? I mean , we need our life especially if We'll cast Reanimate. And thoughtseize costs us our valuable 2 life . Are we really gonna Thoughtseize a creature of the opponent considering we are running EXHUMES?
thoughtseize is still better because sometime you can seize yourself if you have a big creature in hand but don't have a way to pitch it into the graveyard.
Its cool that the vital parts for reanimator and ant are the same . I did the opposite from you, what i did was switch from reanimator to ant. I was a little bored with the reanimator, it was easy to use and so powerful. Iona just shuts down the opponent. I bought two packs of sleeves with the same design so that if I get tired of ant, ill be able to switch to reanimator again without taking the cards from their sleeves.
Well, from what I've observed from playing, it's difficult to use ANT with consistent success unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!). I found the following to be problems:
- Not getting the combo pieces in time.
- Getting cut off from mana either by the opponent or simply bad draws.
- Having to combo off with Ad Nauseam out of necessity, only to fail to find Tendrils of Agony or generate enough of a storm chain to make the kill.
- Not actually being any faster than most decks because you have to keep digging for the cards you need to go off, and all the while, you don't have much board presence to stop the opponent's own plans.
Getting back on topic, I've found Lotus Petal is nice for making certain opening hands more playable, temporarily mitigates colour screw, and if you have a couple of them out early, you can get some really quick opening plays.
Is maindecking discard like Duress or Thoughtseize any good for further protecting the combo, or are counters sufficient?
I briefly thought about whether Reya Dawnbringer might be good for free ongoing recursion once she comes out, but concluded that for the 9 life you may have to pay to get her out, she's not a great beater as a 4/6 flyer, and she's pretty easy to kill compared to what's already commonly used.
Well, from what I've observed from playing, it's difficult to use ANT with consistent success unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!). I found the following to be problems:
- Not getting the combo pieces in time.
- Getting cut off from mana either by the opponent or simply bad draws.
- Having to combo off with Ad Nauseam out of necessity, only to fail to find Tendrils of Agony or generate enough of a storm chain to make the kill.
- Not actually being any faster than most decks because you have to keep digging for the cards you need to go off, and all the while, you don't have much board presence to stop the opponent's own plans.
Getting back on topic, I've found Lotus Petal is nice for making certain opening hands more playable, temporarily mitigates colour screw, and if you have a couple of them out early, you can get some really quick opening plays.
Is maindecking discard like Duress or Thoughtseize any good for further protecting the combo, or are counters sufficient?
I briefly thought about whether Reya Dawnbringer might be good for free ongoing recursion once she comes out, but concluded that for the 9 life you may have to pay to get her out, she's not a great beater as a 4/6 flyer, and she's pretty easy to kill compared to what's already commonly used.
I run 2 thoughtseize on my deck, it helped me a couple of times to see what my opponent has in hand before I reanimate a creature. Also, you can thoughseize you opponent's tarmogoyf then cast reanimate in midgame just losing 4 life in all for a 4/5 to 5/6 creature. In regards to REYA , I dont think she's a good target because Im running 7 creatures already and usually I have 1-2 creature cards on the graveyard the most. She doesnt have protection as well, easily can be killed with burn,PTE , swords etc. You want to stick with creatures with multiple abilities. My favorite still is IONA --- that card just shuts down, 2nd is sphinx for life gain , third is Akroma ,angel of wrath ( When I need a fast damage because of the haste).Haven't use blazing archon yet, Inkwell was fine , and empyrial was so good with protecting you while you get another target for reanimation.
This is probably going to sound freaking insane, but I've so far found that maindecking Lotus Petal means not having to rely on Underground Sea as much for early colour-specific mana. Petals can generate any colour, can be cast as multiples, and our business spells cost either U, B or 1B, which is not particularly taxing to achieve with fetches. I wonder if you could then use just basic Islands and Swamps to ignore non-basic hate? Chalice of the Void might hurt though...
On a possibly less stupid note, Polluted Delta is a must-have fetch, but does it matter much what the other 4-6 fetches are, so long as they fetch either Islands or Swamps? I was playtesting with proxy Flooded Strand, but now that I have a playset of Misty Rainforest, I'm using those instead.
Well, we run mistys and stuff that fetch either island OR swamps is so that we can fetch our Underground Seas. Running basics is ok, like I run a singleton island and swamp to fetch for non basic hate, but against decks that don't run them, Seas are necessary for more stability and consistency to get the mana you need. If non basic hate is real bad on your end, you could up the count, though the mana base have to rebalanced.
Lotus Petal's good for mana fixing, but there are times when you need more mana to go off maybe 2 turns (seize him then next turn reanimate), it does provide good ramp here and there, but can't really be counted on heavily. When you said lotus petals I was thinking on more of the lines of Null Rod than CotV for Zero though.
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Reya sucks as the above mentioned. PtE, stp, and whatnot, actually most of the time reya has nothing to recurr anyways.
Reya Dawnbringer is actually incredible IF you have ways of protecting her.
I'll give just one example out of many. I was playing against a 43 lands deck, with a Tabernacle of Pendral Vale out (pay 1 mana per creature every upkeep or sacrifice it)
I had Reya pull out an Angel of Despair, and used it to destroy a land.
Next turn, I didn't pay the upkeep and sacrified the AoD. Then Reya pulled it out again and I destroyed another land. Kept going in this loop each turn. Eventually, I destroyed everything. Reya can create several types of loops that are devastating if the opposing deck can't get rid of her.
@ John Rohan - That is way too situational to try and prove that Reya is worth running. Reya and the Angel of Dispair are not "good enough" for reanimator decks anymore. There are plently of better creatures to run than those. Tabernacle isn't that good against Reanimator deck to begin with. You won't have a ton of creatures out to have the upkeep cost be a problem.
agree with lancelot123... Most of the time you'll be happy see 2 creatures in the board with reanimator. So tabernacle wont be a problem.With that, you should always pick the "best " target to reanimate becaUSE you can't cast reanimate twice (because of the life loss). Even with a single target with reanimate , you'll lose 8-9 points of lives on average. So you'll have to race your opponent to win the game. IF you'll reanimate REyA, they can easily kill her easily with STP, burn ,PTE etc etc.
@ John Rohan - That is way too situational to try and prove that Reya is worth running. Reya and the Angel of Dispair are not "good enough" for reanimator decks anymore.
That was only one example. I'll give you an ever better one - I once was playing against a Vial Affinity deck that had like 10 creatures on the board. I just had Reya and Empyrial Archangel.
My opponent found out there was just no way he could kill me. His creatures would swing for like 100 damage, kill the Archangel, and then Reya would pull it out again next turn. Rinse and repeat.
But yes, I agree Reya is not a good choice for most reanimator decks - it needs protection, or you need to keep it in the sideboard for opponents who don't have creature removal. It's also better if you are running Buried Alive with it so you have more creatures for her to put into play.
But I disagree with you about Angel of Despair. I always keep her mb or sb. The problem is, there are just too many rogue decks out there with wild cards I can't always expect (like Planeswalkers), and I need something that will destroy anything.
Reya dawnbringer is bad because if you entomb her, what will she bring back with her ability? Nothing most likely because there won't be a target. Affinity isn't played; and against lands, go get inkwell leviathan and beat them to a pulp without doing fancy angel of despair plus reya tricks. What happens if they don't have tabernacle out? Or what it they are actually competent at magic and they kill their tabernacle with a wasteland so you can't loop it forever? Reya dawnbringer is trash in this deck and will never see serious competitive play.
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But I disagree with you about Angel of Despair. I always keep her mb or sb. The problem is, there are just too many rogue decks out there with wild cards I can't always expect (like Planeswalkers), and I need something that will destroy anything.
I still prefer AoD above woodfall since she has no limits to her vindicate.
With STP being the most common removal card, the difference rarely comes to use.
Woodfall primus is a good card and depending on your meta you could opt to play an angel of despair instead.
i'd play terastodon over either of those. the card just wins because its impact on the board is too great.
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It is good to note that some people sideboard inquistion instead of spell pierce.
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+1 for the SB ---- just started playing this deck 3 times since I came back to magic last month. So Im still new with the format.
I feel this provides some support for the use of thought seize instead of spell pierce or duress. Being able to target yourself is very relevant.
Also, I think that the proper side boarding includes boarding out the re-animation taregts that are no longer relevant.
My current board for reanimater includes 3 reverent silence. Is that too much counterbalance/leyline hate?
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I do run both discard and counters, I was just pointing out that seize is a better overall spell but inquisition just works well against aggro decks with low cmc and that you don't get too much life sucked from you.
@rancorous_fool:
We do not replace seize with spell pierce, pierce and duress is usually found in SB for more counters/discard. I have used seize to discard my creatures and reanimate ftw many of times.
As for creature boarding, it heavily depends on your creatures in SB, however, we don't dedicate too many slots for creatures maybe 0-1, do note that in the end the number of creatures in deck should be around 5-6 or you might have quite a bit of trouble.
As for 3 reverent silence, we run a mix of 2 claim + 1 grip, some just run 3 grips and some even 4 =D I would say 3 RS isn't excessive.
Just my thoughts
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Hey, has everyone totally forgotten about Cabal Therapy??? It's way better than these other options for a Reanimator Deck.
1. Doesn't cost you life (unlike Seize)
2. You can target yourself and put a fat creature in the graveyard (unlike with Duress or Inquisition)
3. If you guess well you can make your opponent discard multiple copies of a card. This isn't as rare as it sounds; often enough you'll know some of the cards your opponent is holding due to SDT, Goblin Ringleader, etc.
4. It also has flashback - sacrifice a creature. Not often possible in this deck, but it can still be useful on occasion.
I did this today
4 ancient tomb
4 underground sea
4 verdant catacomb
4 misty rainforest
2 island
1 swamp
1 watery grave
4 lotus petal
Disruption: 8
4 force of will
4 spellpierce
4 lim-dul's vault
4 brainstorm
3 mystical tutor
1 ponder
Utility: 14
4 show and tell
4 dream hall
3 conflux
3 cruel ultimatum
Creatures: 2
2 iona, shield of emeria
4 entomb
4 exhume
4 reanimate
1 blazing archon
1 sphinx of steelwheel
1 daze
Sideboard:
-4 ancient tomb
-4 dream halls
-3 conflux
-3 cruel ultimatum
-1 show and tell
Add in whole sideboard.
So basically, the goal is play until you win just one match with the dream hall combo (or if you KNOW that the match-up is awesome with reanimator) and game 2/3 expect them to sideboard whatever is good against combo and then swap in reanimator while they have no grave hate (and good chance no creature hate) where reanimator wins like 70%+ of the games.
Or the good chance they know you have reanimator for transformational then just play mind games switching cards with your sideboard (question can they call stalling when you are shuffling your two builds back and forth in attempt to make them guess which build you are using?)
The flip side is playing reanimator first and then switching to dream hall combo. Although both builds are not exactly optimal, the strength lies in the surprise against no hate.
I understand the trick you are trying to do, although they will probably put in their graveyard hate in game 3 (although i guess you could switch back to Dream Halls then).
But something I don't understand. How are you going to cast Iona with Dream Halls? Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you only have 3 cards in your deck to pitch to it (Conflux). Even with tutors, is that enough? I think a blue creature like Inkwell Leviathan or Empyrial Archangel would be much easier to get in play. But if you stay with Iona, it seems like there are more useful white spells to keep than Conflux.
I run two iona, they can either enter play via show and tell or just play conflux and grab iona once,1 conflux, cruel, and two other blue/black cards. Play cruel, draw a few cards, then conflux again grabbing the 2nd iona, another conflux, cruel, and other two blue/black cards. Discard one iona to play the other and play cruel where they should have no hand by now and iona would lock them out of whatever removal they may topdeck. Also the iona is needed for the reanimator build, as you see the sideboard is already pretty tight (though I guess you can just replace the ionas with sphinx and replace the archon with archangel...).
Earlier, I threw this list together:
2 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Blazing Archon
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 Careful Study
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Lotus Petal
What more do you guys think needs to be done? I also have Ponder and Dark Ritual handy, but don't know if either are useful.
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thoughtseize is still better because sometime you can seize yourself if you have a big creature in hand but don't have a way to pitch it into the graveyard.
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Well, from what I've observed from playing, it's difficult to use ANT with consistent success unless you really know what you're doing (which I don't!). I found the following to be problems:
- Not getting the combo pieces in time.
- Getting cut off from mana either by the opponent or simply bad draws.
- Having to combo off with Ad Nauseam out of necessity, only to fail to find Tendrils of Agony or generate enough of a storm chain to make the kill.
- Not actually being any faster than most decks because you have to keep digging for the cards you need to go off, and all the while, you don't have much board presence to stop the opponent's own plans.
Getting back on topic, I've found Lotus Petal is nice for making certain opening hands more playable, temporarily mitigates colour screw, and if you have a couple of them out early, you can get some really quick opening plays.
Is maindecking discard like Duress or Thoughtseize any good for further protecting the combo, or are counters sufficient?
I briefly thought about whether Reya Dawnbringer might be good for free ongoing recursion once she comes out, but concluded that for the 9 life you may have to pay to get her out, she's not a great beater as a 4/6 flyer, and she's pretty easy to kill compared to what's already commonly used.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
I run 2 thoughtseize on my deck, it helped me a couple of times to see what my opponent has in hand before I reanimate a creature. Also, you can thoughseize you opponent's tarmogoyf then cast reanimate in midgame just losing 4 life in all for a 4/5 to 5/6 creature. In regards to REYA , I dont think she's a good target because Im running 7 creatures already and usually I have 1-2 creature cards on the graveyard the most. She doesnt have protection as well, easily can be killed with burn,PTE , swords etc. You want to stick with creatures with multiple abilities. My favorite still is IONA --- that card just shuts down, 2nd is sphinx for life gain , third is Akroma ,angel of wrath ( When I need a fast damage because of the haste).Haven't use blazing archon yet, Inkwell was fine , and empyrial was so good with protecting you while you get another target for reanimation.
On a possibly less stupid note, Polluted Delta is a must-have fetch, but does it matter much what the other 4-6 fetches are, so long as they fetch either Islands or Swamps? I was playtesting with proxy Flooded Strand, but now that I have a playset of Misty Rainforest, I'm using those instead.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
Lotus Petal's good for mana fixing, but there are times when you need more mana to go off maybe 2 turns (seize him then next turn reanimate), it does provide good ramp here and there, but can't really be counted on heavily. When you said lotus petals I was thinking on more of the lines of Null Rod than CotV for Zero though.
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Reya Dawnbringer is actually incredible IF you have ways of protecting her.
I'll give just one example out of many. I was playing against a 43 lands deck, with a Tabernacle of Pendral Vale out (pay 1 mana per creature every upkeep or sacrifice it)
I had Reya pull out an Angel of Despair, and used it to destroy a land.
Next turn, I didn't pay the upkeep and sacrified the AoD. Then Reya pulled it out again and I destroyed another land. Kept going in this loop each turn. Eventually, I destroyed everything. Reya can create several types of loops that are devastating if the opposing deck can't get rid of her.
That was only one example. I'll give you an ever better one - I once was playing against a Vial Affinity deck that had like 10 creatures on the board. I just had Reya and Empyrial Archangel.
My opponent found out there was just no way he could kill me. His creatures would swing for like 100 damage, kill the Archangel, and then Reya would pull it out again next turn. Rinse and repeat.
But yes, I agree Reya is not a good choice for most reanimator decks - it needs protection, or you need to keep it in the sideboard for opponents who don't have creature removal. It's also better if you are running Buried Alive with it so you have more creatures for her to put into play.
But I disagree with you about Angel of Despair. I always keep her mb or sb. The problem is, there are just too many rogue decks out there with wild cards I can't always expect (like Planeswalkers), and I need something that will destroy anything.
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I personally would use bounce and/or Woodfall Primus.
i'd play terastodon over either of those. the card just wins because its impact on the board is too great.
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would you sac your stuff or theirs? (new to reanimator)
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